15:02:56 <FranciscoD> #startmeeting Fedora Join 20160926
15:02:56 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Sep 26 15:02:56 2016 UTC.  The chair is FranciscoD. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:02:56 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:02:56 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_join_20160926'
15:03:10 <FranciscoD> #meetingname Fedora Join 26 Sept 2016
15:03:10 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_join_26_sept_2016'
15:03:17 <FranciscoD> #topic rollcall
15:03:23 <FranciscoD> .hello FranciscoD
15:03:24 <zodbot> FranciscoD: Sorry, but you don't exist
15:03:29 <FranciscoD> woah
15:03:32 <FranciscoD> that's neat
15:03:38 <FranciscoD> .hello ankursinha
15:03:39 <zodbot> FranciscoD: ankursinha 'Ankur Sinha' <sanjay.ankur@gmail.com>
15:03:57 * FranciscoD waits for a few minutes for folks to turn up
15:06:36 <skamath_> .hello skamath
15:06:37 <zodbot> skamath_: skamath 'Sachin S Kamath ' <sskamath96@gmail.com>
15:06:49 <skamath_> FranciscoD: o/
15:06:55 <FranciscoD> skamath: hiya! Doing alright?
15:07:14 <skamath_> FranciscoD: On Arch Live now. Crashed Xorg
15:07:26 <FranciscoD> LOL
15:07:26 * skamath_ should disable nvidia
15:07:29 <FranciscoD> skamath_: rawhide eh?
15:07:40 <skamath_> Yea, an update broke it.
15:07:52 <FranciscoD> ah, then it may not be X, could be wayland :)
15:08:07 <FranciscoD> skamath_: shold probably not use rawhide on your work system :P
15:08:26 <FranciscoD> it is quite usable, but it does require debugging from time to time :)
15:08:27 <skamath_> I figured it out quite late I guess :P
15:08:33 <skamath_> I'm gonna downgrade/
15:08:47 <FranciscoD> Id recommend a fresh install if you have a separate /home partition
15:09:05 <skamath_> Yep, /home is always separate. I share it across multiple distros
15:09:53 <skamath_> Is there an Agenda for today, FranciscoD ?
15:10:12 <FranciscoD> skamath_: yea - pretty much just going over old issues
15:10:19 <FranciscoD> let's get on with it. It's 10 past
15:10:27 * skamath_ nods
15:10:28 <FranciscoD> #topic Issues/Tickets
15:10:36 <FranciscoD> #chair skamath_
15:10:36 <zodbot> Current chairs: FranciscoD skamath_
15:10:43 <FranciscoD> https://pagure.io/fedora-join/Fedora-Join/issues
15:10:52 <FranciscoD> #info some of these are left over from the trac instance
15:11:11 <FranciscoD> #info https://pagure.io/fedora-join/Fedora-Join/issue/11 - membership tracker - no pending membership requests
15:11:38 <FranciscoD> #info https://pagure.io/fedora-join/Fedora-Join/issue/10 - "Fedora and the open source philosophy" essay contest
15:11:40 <skamath_> FranciscoD: How is this different from the FAS membership?
15:11:53 <skamath_> People have to request here instead of FAS?
15:12:06 <FranciscoD> skamath_: either would work - I monitor em both
15:12:12 <skamath_> Cool.
15:12:16 <FranciscoD> we don't have a way of automatically syncing the two memberships unfortunately
15:12:29 <skamath_> Strange, my bouncer just dc'd
15:12:32 <FranciscoD> i think pagure is slightly easier for people to deal with
15:13:03 <FranciscoD> I think the contest needs to be discussed with CommOps - seems more in that domain. What do you think skamath_ ?
15:13:16 <skamath> Sounds good to me :)
15:13:37 <skamath> +1
15:13:43 <skamath> Well, votes don
15:13:49 <FranciscoD> haha
15:13:52 <skamath> *don't count I guess
15:14:02 <FranciscoD> #agreed https://pagure.io/fedora-join/Fedora-Join/issue/10 - bring up with CommOps team
15:14:13 <FranciscoD> #task FranciscoD bring up https://pagure.io/fedora-join/Fedora-Join/issue/10 with CommOps
15:14:31 <FranciscoD> Next:
15:14:47 <FranciscoD> #info https://pagure.io/fedora-join/Fedora-Join/issue/9 - "Invite members from other SIGs to join the SIG"
15:15:11 <FranciscoD> I think jflory7 had suggested a community blog post about the SIG and "charlie" sometime ago
15:15:25 <FranciscoD> which reminds me, I need to reply to the thread about charlie
15:15:33 <skamath> But charlie is not going to be deployed right?
15:15:38 <FranciscoD> #task FranciscoD reply to commops thread on fedora web things
15:15:49 <FranciscoD> skamath: i'm not sure yet. Let's discuss that in the open floor?
15:16:00 * skamath nods
15:16:29 <FranciscoD> #info https://pagure.io/fedora-join/Fedora-Join/issue/8 - "Mail people listed on the wiki page as members to see if they're still interested"
15:16:46 <FranciscoD> Another team admin task..
15:17:18 <FranciscoD> Actually, this seems obsolete. The wiki page doesn't have a list of people XD
15:17:35 <skamath> I was searching for it, lol.
15:18:11 <FranciscoD> #task FranciscoD close #8 - obsolete
15:18:35 <skamath> FranciscoD: You sure it's task?
15:18:42 <FranciscoD> #undo
15:18:42 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by FranciscoD at 15:16:29 : https://pagure.io/fedora-join/Fedora-Join/issue/8 - "Mail people listed on the wiki page as members to see if they're still interested"
15:18:47 <FranciscoD> skamath: actually, I found the list: https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Fedora_Join_SIG&oldid=404343#Members
15:19:04 <skamath> No I mean, I think it's #action
15:19:08 <FranciscoD> we updated a wiki page to remove that section
15:19:18 <skamath> I've never seen #task before
15:19:24 <jflory> .hello jflory7
15:19:25 <zodbot> jflory: jflory7 'Justin W. Flory' <jflory7@gmail.com>
15:19:27 <FranciscoD> skamath: ah, maybe - no wonder I wasn't getting notifications :D
15:19:38 <FranciscoD> #action FranciscoD bring up https://pagure.io/fedora-join/Fedora-Join/issue/10 with CommOps
15:19:39 <skamath> jflory: o/
15:19:43 <jflory> Hiya!
15:19:48 <FranciscoD> hello!
15:19:50 <FranciscoD> skamath: yea, that works :D
15:19:55 <skamath> :)
15:20:22 <FranciscoD> I'll contact the folks too.
15:20:54 <FranciscoD> #action FranciscoD mail folks listed at https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Fedora_Join_SIG&oldid=404343#Members and close ticket #8
15:21:25 <FranciscoD> #info https://pagure.io/fedora-join/Fedora-Join/issue/7 - "Prospective contributor introduction template"
15:21:53 <FranciscoD> What do you folks think of this? Would this help?
15:22:18 <skamath> Nice idea. It'll help people understand what we expect. +1
15:22:56 <skamath> This is for the mailing list introduction right?
15:23:00 <FranciscoD> skamath: yea
15:23:21 * skamath thinks it is a good idea
15:23:43 <jflory> I think some sort of common format for introductions on mailing lists is useful, especially for teams that deal with technical areas. It could be a general format and then other groups could add onto it as necessary.
15:24:25 <FranciscoD> Yea - I see one or two issues
15:24:57 <FranciscoD> 1. Teams have their own join processes already - they'd probably prefer having their custom templates somewhere on their "Join" pages
15:25:10 <FranciscoD> so a centralised place for these may not work?
15:25:49 <FranciscoD> 2. Given that hubs is going to take over the subscription process (I'm not calling it onboarding, and I'll explain why in the open floor) - we'll have to see how it fits the existing hubs design?
15:26:18 <jflory> FranciscoD: On the other hand, I think it's a question of whether teams would adopt a self-introduction format. I think having a common base could be useful
15:26:26 <jflory> Well, mailing lists will be still be used.
15:27:05 <jflory> The idea behind Hubs is that it is just an interface to the existing apps and tools in Fedora, to avoid a schism between people who may or may not want to use it
15:27:09 <FranciscoD> jflory: yea, but at the moment the wiki pages usually say something like "introduce yourself!". I need to check if the badge based subscription process has a step coressponding to this
15:27:20 * FranciscoD nods
15:28:04 <jflory> Not sure I follow on the last bit?
15:28:18 <FranciscoD> jflory: the bit about the subscription on hubs with badges?
15:28:32 <jflory> Yeah, in terms of a self-intro.
15:28:38 <skamath> Or we could have a central page, which has a list of teams as dropdowns and then dynamically change the template based on what the user has chosen.
15:28:55 * skamath shrugs on the idea of another website
15:29:22 <FranciscoD> So, from what I've understood - and I need to re-read the hubs info to confirm - hubs has a "subscribe" button and this is a step by step system that will take a newbie through whatever the particular team requires
15:29:35 <FranciscoD> so step 1 will be "join the fas group", you get a badge
15:29:45 <FranciscoD> step 2 will be "join the ML", you get a badge
15:29:48 <FranciscoD> etc
15:29:57 <skamath> Do we have a badge for fedora-join?
15:30:06 <FranciscoD> it'll be nice if we can fit the template in that step rather than host templates elsewhere?
15:30:12 <jflory> Ahh, I might be behind on some of the Hubs discussion then
15:30:28 <FranciscoD> skamath: not yet - not enough folks to require one :D
15:30:50 <FranciscoD> jflory: I'm sure I read/heard of this somewhere. I'm not creative enough to make it up
15:30:53 <FranciscoD> (or so I hope)
15:30:53 <FranciscoD> :D
15:31:05 <skamath> jflory: Are we dealing with fedora-join FAS in our CommOps Onboarding series?
15:31:05 <skamath> I think not.
15:31:23 <FranciscoD> but it seems to fit with the latest update on the website thread we've received
15:31:53 <jflory> FranciscoD: I know about the subscribe feature, but I just don't think I'm current on what the discussion was for it. I'm behind on a lot of things right now so I wouldn't be surprised if I've just missed something.
15:32:25 <FranciscoD> me neither - which is why I havent replied to the thread yet. Gotta read up things first
15:32:26 <jflory> skamath: I think we have some bigger fish to fry right now. :) I think having a badge for Join SIG would be designing a badge for maybe five people right now.
15:32:35 <FranciscoD> ++
15:32:45 <skamath> :P
15:33:24 <FranciscoD> I'll update the ticket for the introduction template and we can visit it in the next meeting after we collect some feedback?
15:33:38 <skamath> +1
15:33:43 <jflory> Works for me.
15:34:08 <FranciscoD> awesome
15:34:29 <FranciscoD> #agreed FranciscoD update the ticket for the introduction template and we can visit it in the next meeting after we collect some feedback
15:34:37 <FranciscoD> is that how agreed works?
15:34:38 <FranciscoD> oh well
15:34:46 <FranciscoD> #action FranciscoD update the ticket for the introduction template and we can visit it in the next meeting after we collect some feedback
15:35:16 <FranciscoD> #info https://pagure.io/fedora-join/Fedora-Join/issue/6 - "Join SIG introduction tempate"
15:35:37 <FranciscoD> this is similar, but this is for existing contributors joining the Join SIG as opposed to newbies joining $team
15:35:49 * FranciscoD isn't sure if this is needed
15:36:04 <FranciscoD> given that they'll be existing contributors
15:36:24 <FranciscoD> (and know all this)
15:36:38 <jflory> Indeed, that is how #agreed works :)
15:36:40 <skamath> Can't we just close this as duplicate?
15:36:47 <jflory> FranciscoD: Yeah, I see this ticket as low priority right now
15:36:51 <skamath> We can cover this in the previous ticket.
15:37:08 <FranciscoD> tickets on pagure don't have a priority metadata field, do they?
15:37:19 <FranciscoD> hrm, no
15:37:25 <jflory> They do. :) But you have to specify the priority tags in the repo settings
15:37:30 <jflory> You have to assign them weights
15:37:30 <FranciscoD> aha
15:37:33 <FranciscoD> ok
15:37:36 <FranciscoD> here goes another
15:37:46 <skamath> jflory has become a Pagure hero :D
15:37:51 <FranciscoD> #action FranciscoD update repo settings to add priorities
15:37:53 <FranciscoD> and another
15:38:04 <FranciscoD> #action FranciscoD mark ticket #6 as low priority
15:38:15 <jflory> :)
15:38:41 <FranciscoD> #info https://pagure.io/fedora-join/Fedora-Join/issue/5 - FAS group membership kinks
15:39:06 <FranciscoD> another admin ticket
15:39:29 <FranciscoD> things like join sig membership should require participation in at least one other Fedora team/sig
15:39:37 <FranciscoD> i.e., how do we define a contributor
15:40:03 <FranciscoD> and of course, the constant issue of "removing inactive members"
15:40:15 <FranciscoD> etc etc
15:40:48 <skamath> "removing inactive members" is something to be carefully done.
15:41:02 <jflory> To me, this all seems like discussion about on-boarding for the Join SIG.
15:41:10 <FranciscoD> Latest comment says: two fas groups for one release cycle, mandatory ML subscription, datagrepper based way of ascertaining inactives (similar to ambassadors)
15:41:16 <FranciscoD> jflory: ++
15:41:41 <FranciscoD> maybe we should leave it open for everyone at the moment
15:41:49 <skamath> nod nod
15:41:51 <FranciscoD> it isn't like we're having issues with high numbers, you know?
15:42:05 <skamath> lol
15:42:06 <FranciscoD> if you're a contributor, hop on?
15:43:10 <FranciscoD> Mark this one "invalid" and move on? It can be dealt with later if/when required
15:43:17 <jflory> I'm thinking it might be helpful to consolidate all of the specific, one-off tickets into a single on-boarding ticket for us, so we can revisit the big picture of how we're trying to bring new people into the SIG. I also want to keep a separation for our focus and what kind of things we're working on separate from CommOps.
15:43:50 <jflory> I see a lot of potential for overlap, and it wouldn't make sense to have two bodies doing the same general type of work. If we're bringing in new people, we want to have a clear focus on the specific set of tasks we're working on.
15:44:01 <FranciscoD> jflory++
15:44:01 <zodbot> FranciscoD: Karma for jflory7 changed to 50 (for the f24 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:44:18 <jflory> It might be worth revisiting the SIG objectives as a whole and updating them for where the project is now (since I see a lot of this discussion is going back a couple of years in the tickets).
15:44:21 <jflory> \o/
15:44:46 <FranciscoD> jflory: yea, I was meaning to discuss that with you too. Maybe on the open floor?
15:45:10 <FranciscoD> the next two tickets can be skipped. They're not pertinent at the moment tbh
15:45:15 <jflory> From my perspective, I think it will be easy for us to get caught up in the semantics of how we're structured and trying to bring new people in, and that might prevent us from getting actual targeted work done.
15:45:37 <skamath__> Gateway error :/
15:45:41 <FranciscoD> #info skipping remaining tickets #3, #1 for the time being
15:45:45 <FranciscoD> #topic open floor
15:45:46 <jflory> On-boarding for our group is important, but I think before we can effectively bring new people in, we need to have a strong focus on the type of work we wish to accomplish as a team
15:46:07 <FranciscoD> jflory: so the first thing is the purpose of the sig
15:46:17 <FranciscoD> as you said, commops is doing qutie a bit of onboarding
15:46:35 <FranciscoD> but is that meant to help people find the right team to work with, or is that to get them contributing to commops?
15:47:03 <FranciscoD> since fedora-join is aimed at helping them find the right teams, and is meant to be a temporary stop for newbies
15:47:12 <skamath> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-commops/issue/34
15:47:15 <skamath> FranciscoD: ^
15:48:08 <jflory> FranciscoD: The focus from the CommOps on-boarding perspective is to evaluate how each team / sub-project / group in Fedora brings in new contributors, figure out ways we can improve the process, and work closely with the team on improving the process to more effectively bring new contributors into their teams. While a lot of people are coming into CommOps as their first project, I don't think it necessarily should be or have to be the first pit s
15:48:11 <jflory> contributors.
15:48:19 <FranciscoD> ah, there you go - that's where I read the "badges for steps" part then :D
15:48:31 <jflory> If people want to get involved with the community side (i.e. non-technical areas), I think CommOps is helpful
15:49:08 <jflory> But if they want to get to hacking and doing some mad programming, CommOps may not be the best first place.
15:49:33 <FranciscoD> yea
15:50:18 <FranciscoD> do you think the join sig should handle that part? since the idea is that the join sig's channels be used to connect newbies to community members?
15:51:02 <jflory> I see the Join SIG being most effective as the liason between new contributors matching with other experienced contributors and sub-projects.
15:51:21 <jflory> The people connection the Join SIG can offer is helpful in that regard
15:51:41 <jflory> Talking to a person and asking for help is more engaging and interactive than reading pages or guides
15:51:54 <jflory> But we have to make sure we have the proper tooling and bandwidth to accomplish that.
15:52:27 <FranciscoD> ++
15:52:49 <skamath> +1
15:53:11 <FranciscoD> Well given that the join sig is.. lets call it understaffed.. at the moment, it'll make more sense that we help out with this ticket while it's still under commops
15:53:27 <jflory> So, since we're in the final few minutes here, here's some of my ideas for our own action items for the SIG...
15:53:49 <jflory> (1) Formally define purpose and role of the SIG, get this publicly written up somewhere (e.g. wiki page)
15:53:58 <jflory> s/define/update
15:54:24 <FranciscoD> #info https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Join_SIG#Aim
15:55:02 <jflory> (2) Work on identifying tools and ways we can help automate the process of matching newcomers to project areas (like when someone joins the channel and immediately asks for help - is there some sort of bot we could use to give an info blurb? what about promoting the mailing list more heavily? what else can we do to make it easier to point people to the right place?)
15:55:32 <jflory> (3) Marketing for the SIG: Improving the awareness of the SIG as a great place to point people who want to become involved and seek help
15:55:49 <jflory> ^ this is definitely something we really need (and can be done), but we want to be "ready" before we do something like that
15:56:24 <jflory> If we have people coming to us asking for help and we don't have the bandwidth to handle it, then the SIG will likely repeat what happened to it last time with people burning out / losing interest
15:56:25 <skamath> Awesome. jflory7++
15:57:01 <FranciscoD> I wish there was a way of doing this without asking folks to join yet another ML and yet another IRC channel
15:57:05 <FranciscoD> folks = contributors
15:58:03 * FranciscoD notes that his blog about the SIG didn't show up on the planet
15:58:38 <FranciscoD> We do have quite a few things to work out. I'll send a summary of the meeting to the list. Hopefully folks that couldn't make it to the meeting will chime in.
15:58:48 <jflory> FranciscoD: True, but I feel like if we do a good job of defining this, people will naturally want to help.
15:58:49 <FranciscoD> And we can move forward that way
15:59:39 <jflory> My apprehension was that things felt like they were lacking leadership / direction for the SIG, so as a contributor, I felt like pointing people here would be pointing them towards a black hole of sorts. If we can get form and structure, I think bringing in new contributors to help will be easier
15:59:40 <FranciscoD> Yea. I agree
16:00:44 <FranciscoD> It was a chicken and egg thing - not enough activity meant not enough contribs, and not enough contribs meant not enough activity. The common spiral. I'm hopeing regular meetings and discussions etc will change that.
16:01:04 * jflory nods
16:01:07 <jflory> Sounds good to me.
16:01:15 <FranciscoD> Right. We're out of time today. Any last comments before we finish up?
16:01:23 <jflory> Nothing from me! I actually have to roll out too.
16:01:25 <skamath> None from me.
16:01:34 <FranciscoD> Awesome. Thanks for turning up skamath jflory :)
16:01:39 <skamath> Thanks for chairing FranciscoD :)
16:01:39 <jflory> Cheers!
16:01:47 <FranciscoD> #action FranciscoD send out logs, summarise points, mail the ML
16:01:51 <FranciscoD> #endmeeting