22:46:29 <paulproteus> #startmeeting 22:46:29 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jul 8 22:46:29 2010 UTC. The chair is paulproteus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 22:46:29 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 22:46:45 <paulproteus> I'm having a meeting with myself, with Fedora people watching. 22:46:49 <paulproteus> And I have no idea how to use MeetBot. 22:46:54 <paulproteus> Helpfully it's documented on wiki.d.o. 22:47:34 <paulproteus> #topic Describe Asheesh's thoughts about the OSCON proposal 22:47:40 <Jefro> hey all 22:47:52 <paulproteus> Hey (-: I'm having a meeting with myself and maybe mchua re: our OSCON talk 22:48:03 <mchua> paulproteus: yo yo yo! 22:48:21 <mchua> Sorry, was distracted by OLF talk proposal emails 22:48:23 <mchua> but I am here now. 22:48:23 <paulproteus> No worries 22:48:28 <mchua> So, let's yak it up. 22:48:32 * mchua pulls up our proposal abstract 22:48:37 <mchua> what did we say we were gonna talk about, again? 22:48:41 <paulproteus> mchua: The OSCON website one? 22:48:44 <mchua> yeah, that 22:48:48 * paulproteus goes to the TOS wiki 22:49:11 * paulproteus reads http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/OSCON_2010#Junior_Jobs_and_Bite-sized_bugs:_Entry_points_for_new_contributors_to_open_source 22:49:27 <Jefro> paulproteus // having a meeting with myself and maybe mchua // LOL 22:49:33 <mchua> awesome. 22:49:43 <mchua> Jefro: feel free to hop in and interrupt us if you like. 22:50:27 <paulproteus> Seems like the topic of our talk is (1) problem: projects don't know how to say what bugs are bitesized. 22:50:36 * mchua is chilling in quaid's garden and listening to Straight No Chaser sing "Can't take my eyes off of you" in the meantime. It is... a wonderful day. 22:51:01 <paulproteus> (1)a Miro, GNOME, etc use bitesize bug tagging 22:51:03 <mchua> paulproteus: yeah, I usually start thinking about the dreyfuss model around this point 22:51:04 <Jefro> no worries, I'm sweating over OSCON myself 22:51:18 <paulproteus> mchua: Right 22:51:22 <mchua> bitesize means a few things here. 22:51:26 <Jefro> mchua - that sounds so incredibly awesome. 22:51:30 <mchua> few skills needed, for one. 22:51:31 <paulproteus> You've mentioned that to me, but I'll read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_model_of_skill_acquisition 22:51:39 <mchua> but also short time completion - quick win 22:51:48 <mchua> (the few skills adds to that, since you don't need to learn too much to jump in) 22:51:53 <mchua> and also not much context needed 22:52:11 <mchua> i.e. you don't have to know 5 mailing lists and 30 people on IRC nor read up on 3 months of list backlog in order to understand the question 22:52:23 <mchua> which is the part that ties into the "novice" section of dreyfuss - new folks don't have that sort of immersion 22:52:37 <paulproteus> Interesting, yeah. 22:52:46 <mchua> er, ability to function well in that immersion without some scaffolding 22:52:59 <mchua> which is why a lot of the scaffolding you're building into openhatch is so useful. 22:53:07 <paulproteus> (aww) 22:53:11 <mchua> it's like having a guide sit next to you and explain that yes it is okay to click *that* button 22:53:29 <paulproteus> I'm going to go back to summarizing the talk abstract to for now. 22:53:30 <mchua> (actually, sometimes you literally do have a guide sitting next to you... if the meetups idea from FOSSCon takes hold. ;) 22:53:36 <mchua> paulproteus: please do. I ramble too much. :) 22:53:38 * mchua sits back and listens 22:54:01 <Jefro> relevant to your talk, I just remembered seeing this go by on slashdot earlier in the week: http://ask.slashdot.org/story/10/07/04/195239/Finding-Open-Source-Projects-Looking-For-Help 22:54:20 <mchua> Jefro: whoa, thanks! 22:54:21 * mchua reads 22:54:27 <paulproteus> Jefro: Yeah, have you read the comments / did you notice openhatch.org collapsing under the load (-: 22:54:30 <paulproteus> (1)b Once bitesize bugs are labeled, how do new contributors find them? 22:55:02 <paulproteus> (2) We claim to have solved this problem with OpenHatch. We highlight bite-sized bugs have a volunteer opportunity finder with browsing by language, bitesized, and type of skill required. 22:55:02 <Jefro> ha... I stopped reading slashdot comments quite a while back. they have become functionally equivalent to those found on icanhascheezburger.com 22:55:10 <mchua> paulproteus: be forewarned that I will try to inject cognitive science, education research, and learning theory in *everything* you say. ;) 22:55:39 <mchua> Jefro: that's interesting - most of the comments to that thread can basically be summarized as "just do it" 22:55:42 <paulproteus> Jefro: That's fine, but search the comments for how frequently "openhatch" appears for a quick laugh (-: 22:55:47 <mchua> which is... I mean, yes, accurate, but... less than helpful 22:55:51 <mchua> (or rather, "just do it, duh") 22:56:00 <paulproteus> "jdid" 22:56:25 <mchua> if a kid came up to you and said "teach me to cook!" would you go "just do it"? 22:56:59 <mchua> or would you walk them through, I dunno, making pancakes, sitting with them through the process, showing them how to measure flour and heat a pan and how to hold a spatula? 22:57:07 <mchua> (and how not to kill themselves with knives) 22:57:13 <JonathanD> how old is said kid? 22:57:20 <JonathanD> :) 22:57:22 <JonathanD> hello mchua 22:57:39 <mchua> JonathanD: Good point. It's also different for different kids, right? 5 year old who hates vegetables != 15 year old who wants to go vegetarian, etc. 22:57:54 <JonathanD> well not only that 22:57:55 <mchua> there's no universal "learn to cook" curriculum, we all like different foods, have different kitchens 22:58:08 <JonathanD> but the age matters for simple things 22:58:17 <JonathanD> like, WHATs should I teach them. 22:58:20 <paulproteus> 3) We will show you how to use OpenHatch to ask for new contributors, find new people to work with, and help them learn how to help you. 22:58:21 * mchua nods. that's another good point 22:58:27 <JonathanD> I might teach a 5 year old how to mix tea from a powder 22:58:36 <JonathanD> but I'm surely not going to teach them to grill a steak. 22:59:07 <mchua> JonathanD: and also what they're able/allowed to access... which goes for hacking as well. if you've only got access to, say, a school lab, or an XO, or library wifi, vs "I've had a nice new laptop every year since I was 12 and have never lived without the internet and have all summer free to hack" 22:59:15 <paulproteus> That last one is a big vague, but I guess it has to do with the project pages. 22:59:20 <JonathanD> I might demonstrate how I do something to someone who I don't think is ready to actually prepare it on their own. 22:59:27 <JonathanD> As the demonstration might still have a teaching value. 22:59:31 <mchua> paulproteus: we claim to have solved this problem? :) 22:59:40 <paulproteus> "Our solution: OpenHatch is a community website where you can say what your project needs and what help you're willing to provide" 22:59:40 <JonathanD> (this goes beyond cooking, of course) 22:59:53 <paulproteus> </summary> 23:00:07 <JonathanD> I really like openhatch, paulproteus 23:00:10 <mchua> paulproteus: okay, so the learning objective here is "you've got a FOSS project and you want new folks, here's how to use openhatch to get that done"? 23:00:11 <JonathanD> I've been sending people there :) 23:00:18 <paulproteus> JonathanD: Oh, cool! 23:00:24 <paulproteus> Send me their thoughts/feedback too! 23:00:29 <JonathanD> I shall do so 23:00:46 <paulproteus> mchua: Yeah, I think that's the angle we push. 23:01:00 <paulproteus> And the answers are 23:01:11 <paulproteus> 0. Start with your bug tracker. Label bugs as bitesize 23:01:28 <paulproteus> 0.a. Explain why this is useful. Dreyfus model exposition is a fine idea by me. 23:01:30 <mchua> paulproteus: (keep going, I need to run a block over to the hotel pool) 23:01:34 <paulproteus> (okay) 23:01:39 <paulproteus> Maybe we can start with 23:01:41 <mchua> paulproteus: also, metrics to prove openhatch == teh betterz! == good 23:01:43 <paulproteus> 0. Here's what it's like to be a n00b 23:01:48 <JonathanD> paulproteus: you should expand beyond software ;) 23:01:55 * mchua can do #0, and also touch on non-coding 23:02:00 <paulproteus> mchua: I have some anecdotal evidence, and I might be able to sum those anecdotes into a number 23:02:20 <paulproteus> Normally I give presentations at high velocity to make sure they're interesting. 23:02:29 <paulproteus> This is one where we don't have a whole *lot* to say, but we might have a lot of convincing to do. 23:02:40 <paulproteus> But the problem is that we might end with people in the audience who simply already agree with us. 23:03:04 <JonathanD> paulproteus: to include free and open source arts and culture too. 23:03:24 <paulproteus> JonathanD: I maintain freeculture.org, so believe me that's occurred to me. 23:03:47 <paulproteus> I just don't have time. But if we had a Free Culture And Arts liason to help figure out how to bend the website to be useful in those ways and interact with those people, I'd be for that. 23:04:41 <JonathanD> paulproteus: ah, I didn't know that :) 23:04:48 <JonathanD> paulproteus: that might be a "Scott" thing? 23:04:53 <paulproteus> There's a lot about me you don't know (-; 23:05:00 <JonathanD> clearly! 23:05:56 <JonathanD> paulproteus: I'm thinking of the basekamp people here, it occurs to me that one or more of them might be able to assist there. 23:06:03 * paulproteus prefers to keep drafting in http://piratepad.net/wz3ofST2Om 23:12:19 <Jefro> if you guys are at a pausing place, sdziallas and I can update you on plans for the LinuxCon Education Mini-Summit 23:12:40 <sdziallas> yup yup 23:13:19 <Jefro> I'm just editing the speakers list, but it looks like we are going to have a quite a rollicking summit. I only hope there are profs there as well! 23:13:34 <sdziallas> if so we should prolly #endmeeting the one above and get this one logged too 23:13:50 <sdziallas> Jefro: yeah, maybe somebody pass this around in the appropriate channels 23:13:51 <paulproteus> #endmeeting