2024-07-17 14:02:58 <@amoloney:fedora.im> !startmeeting Fedora Council Meeting
2024-07-17 14:02:59 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2024-07-17 14:02:58 UTC
2024-07-17 14:03:00 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'Fedora Council Meeting'
2024-07-17 14:03:21 <@amoloney:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-17 14:03:22 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Aoife Moloney (amoloney)
2024-07-17 14:03:33 <@jonatoni:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-17 14:03:34 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Jona Azizaj (jonatoni) - she / her / hers
2024-07-17 14:03:42 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Hi Jona :)
2024-07-17 14:04:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-17 14:04:08 <@jonatoni:fedora.im> Hi Aoife π
2024-07-17 14:04:08 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Justin W. Flory (jflory7) - he / him / his
2024-07-17 14:04:44 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Good morning!
2024-07-17 14:05:08 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Thank you Justin W. Flory (he/him) for the group command, I never remember what it is :D
2024-07-17 14:05:18 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Evidently I don't either since I got it wrong the first time :D
2024-07-17 14:06:49 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I know a few folks are divided attention right now. For laziness, I am going to copy-pasta Aoife's list with the tickets we know we won't cover today, just so I can keep one window for this room open :)
2024-07-17 14:06:53 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Ok our agenda is ticket reviews as we wont/dont have a lot of participation today, so we will do what we can
2024-07-17 14:06:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> #435 https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/435
2024-07-17 14:06:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> #411 https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/411
2024-07-17 14:06:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> #391 https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/391
2024-07-17 14:06:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> #499 https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/499
2024-07-17 14:06:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> #460 https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/460
2024-07-17 14:06:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im>
2024-07-17 14:06:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Needs to be decided if we want to work on these or not:
2024-07-17 14:06:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> #417 https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/417
2024-07-17 14:06:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> #392 https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/392
2024-07-17 14:06:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Ticket Review and Triage:
2024-07-17 14:06:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im>
2024-07-17 14:06:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Needs Decision:
2024-07-17 14:07:34 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Aoife Moloney: I'm not in the internal meeting β want me to drive on Meetbot?
2024-07-17 14:07:49 <@amoloney:fedora.im> oh that would be very helpful, yes please!
2024-07-17 14:08:01 <@jflory7:fedora.im> On it.
2024-07-17 14:08:09 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK folks, let's go ahead and jump right in!
2024-07-17 14:08:44 <@amoloney:fedora.im> We prob cant do the decision ones
2024-07-17 14:08:45 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic #499: Request for Trademark Approval for "Fedora Ready"
2024-07-17 14:08:45 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info Fedora Ready is a program to support vendors who ship or support Fedora on their computers. It is not a certification program or a legal partnership with hardware vendors.
2024-07-17 14:08:45 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/499
2024-07-17 14:08:58 <@jflory7:fedora.im> This one should be a quick vote.
2024-07-17 14:09:10 <@jflory7:fedora.im> There is some trademark clearance underway still, but the Council can go ahead and vote on this officially.
2024-07-17 14:09:42 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Ive just added mine
2024-07-17 14:09:48 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I'm not sure any discussion is needed here, other than "go make a vote or ask a question" π
2024-07-17 14:09:59 <@amoloney:fedora.im> +1
2024-07-17 14:10:59 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !action @t0xic0der @bookwar @dcantrell @bt0dotninja @mattdm @smeragoel @ffmancera @rwright Review #499 (Fedora Ready request) and add a vote or ask a question.
2024-07-17 14:11:04 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK. Onwards.
2024-07-17 14:11:41 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-17 14:11:42 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Akashdeep Dhar (t0xic0der) - he / him / his
2024-07-17 14:12:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/fedora-logos/pull-request/24
2024-07-17 14:12:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/460
2024-07-17 14:12:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info "As part of transition to SPDX identifiers in Fedora [1] we found that fedora-logos uses proprietary and non-free license [2]. There are several options [3]. And most appealing is to publish a the files under public license. I submitted the pull-request with this change."
2024-07-17 14:12:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic #460: Relicense Fedora-logos
2024-07-17 14:12:17 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Hey Akashdeep Dhar!
2024-07-17 14:12:28 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Umm, so this ticket is actually a bit complicated.
2024-07-17 14:12:43 <@msuchy:matrix.org> I am here for any question
2024-07-17 14:12:52 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Hey msuchy π
2024-07-17 14:12:59 <@jflory7:fedora.im> msuchy: Did you ever hear anything from RH Legal?
2024-07-17 14:13:26 <@msuchy:matrix.org> No.
2024-07-17 14:13:32 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Hmm.
2024-07-17 14:13:59 <@msuchy:matrix.org> Richard notes are in https://gitlab.com/fedora/legal/fedora-license-data/-/issues/218
2024-07-17 14:14:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> On the face of it, the request seems simple, but because this is our registered trademark, it likely warrants a closer review than just any graphic we put together.
2024-07-17 14:15:09 <@msuchy:matrix.org> It seems that best license would be CC-BY-SA-4.0. If we decided to relicense it.
2024-07-17 14:15:34 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Richard seems to have weighed in with a recommendation: "Treat the fedora-logos license as not allowed, and state an exception permitting its use in the fedora-logos package, in keeping with tradition."
2024-07-17 14:15:42 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Oh lol I forgot that I commented on this issue π
2024-07-17 14:16:11 <@msuchy:matrix.org> :)
2024-07-17 14:17:41 <@jflory7:fedora.im> It seems like the resolution to this ticket is either the exception for us to use the logo, or use an allowed license
2024-07-17 14:18:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I don't know if I have the context I need to make an informed decision.
2024-07-17 14:18:17 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Trademarks are sticky.
2024-07-17 14:18:17 <@msuchy:matrix.org> I am fine with postponing the decision. But I think this deserves some decision. And because this does not have traditional maintainer, and it is a Fedora owned project/data, the right stakeholder seeems to be Council.
2024-07-17 14:18:29 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I agree that the stakeholder should be Council.
2024-07-17 14:19:59 <@msuchy:matrix.org> the main problem for me is that this is not standard license and may cause problems accepting Fedora Linux once somebody starts checking SBOM of Fedora.
2024-07-17 14:20:52 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I added a comment here: https://gitlab.com/fedora/legal/fedora-license-data/-/issues/218#note_2003683524
2024-07-17 14:20:55 <@msuchy:matrix.org> this text of license comes from prehistoric times where we have just few license and maybe even CC did not existed.
2024-07-17 14:22:12 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I would be curious to see Richard's response to my last ticket. I think having a more clear understanding of any risks for licensing the trademark under an open license is important to understand
2024-07-17 14:22:38 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Trademarks are a different animal than software licenses, so whatever choice we make, we should be clear-eyed about what that means for how people can use our trademark.
2024-07-17 14:22:58 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I don't want to use an open license and then have people use the logo in a way that violates our trademark policy.
2024-07-17 14:23:09 <@msuchy:matrix.org> suse uses CC-BY-SA 3.0 https://github.com/openSUSE/artwork/
2024-07-17 14:23:11 <@jflory7:fedora.im> That feels like an even stickier situation than the one we are in now on this
2024-07-17 14:23:38 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Interesting. Canonical uses their own trademark policy. http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/TrademarkPolicy
2024-07-17 14:24:24 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I am OK to defer this until we get more info from Richard. But I think once we are more clear about pros/cons and any risks with an open license, we can figure out which of the two outcomes makes the most sense as the final resolution
2024-07-17 14:24:40 <@msuchy:matrix.org> agree
2024-07-17 14:24:41 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Other than "writing ourselves an exception to use the logo" or "adopting an open license for the logos", I don't see any other options/
2024-07-17 14:24:43 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Other than "writing ourselves an exception to use the logo" or "adopting an open license for the logos", I don't see any other options.
2024-07-17 14:25:01 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK. Anything else on this topic for now, folks?
2024-07-17 14:25:18 <@msuchy:matrix.org> I am fine with this now
2024-07-17 14:25:30 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Going onceβ¦
2024-07-17 14:25:45 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Going twiceβ¦
2024-07-17 14:25:49 <@amoloney:fedora.im> sorry got side tracked
2024-07-17 14:26:03 <@jflory7:fedora.im> All good. I can give it another minute for catch-up :)
2024-07-17 14:26:06 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Yeah I have no arguments for or against this
2024-07-17 14:26:28 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK. Then I will write up a note and then we can go on to the next ticket.
2024-07-17 14:27:49 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !agreed Deferred for further input by Fedora Legal / Richard Fontana on pros/cons to using an open license for our trademark. Still not clear on what an open license might mean for our trademark policy. There are examples of both out there (openSUSE uses Creative Commons, Canonical/Ubuntu uses its own policy). Once we better understand the pros/cons, we can make a final decision for what license to use or to draft ourselves an exception to use the logos in Fedora.
2024-07-17 14:27:57 <@jflory7:fedora.im> π₯
2024-07-17 14:28:01 <@jflory7:fedora.im> On to the next ticket.
2024-07-17 14:29:18 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info Ticket last updated in June 2023.
2024-07-17 14:29:18 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic #435: Rework the SIG documentation
2024-07-17 14:29:18 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/435
2024-07-17 14:29:18 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info The idea is that we also need to collect resources for SIGs into a single place so that people have a good entry point to all the tools available for them.
2024-07-17 14:30:00 <@jflory7:fedora.im> The idea is fantastic. But I don't think we have the capacity to drive it. Some of this overlaps with the CommOps Initiative, but definitely not all of it.
2024-07-17 14:30:34 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I am in favor of closing this ticket as something we don't have capacity to work on right now.
2024-07-17 14:30:40 <@amoloney:fedora.im> I gree
2024-07-17 14:30:42 <@amoloney:fedora.im> *agree
2024-07-17 14:30:54 <@bt0dotninja:fedora.im> Agree
2024-07-17 14:31:29 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Like the idea, not a big enough problem (yet)
2024-07-17 14:31:37 <@jflory7:fedora.im> How about we give ourselves a deadline of the next Council meeting for feedback or ideas on where we could drive this, and then at the next meeting, we close?
2024-07-17 14:31:43 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Or should I just close it now?
2024-07-17 14:32:15 <@jonatoni:fedora.im> Shall we check with bookwar first if she has the capacity to drive it?
2024-07-17 14:33:33 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Important sure but not urgent
2024-07-17 14:33:43 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Yeah, this is why I figure keep it open until the next Council meeting before we close it
2024-07-17 14:33:49 <@jflory7:fedora.im> For any feedback from folks who couldn't be here today
2024-07-17 14:33:52 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Works.
2024-07-17 14:34:01 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I still think we should close it, but maybe we could "re-home" this somewhere that makes more sense
2024-07-17 14:34:29 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I'm going to make this the plan in the minutes, and then we jump to the next ticket.
2024-07-17 14:35:56 <@amoloney:fedora.im> well actually this ticket does feed into our strategy so I would probably prefer to see it worked on at some point and maybe reformatted to be clearer on the reasons why its being worked on and what benefit(s) it will bring
2024-07-17 14:36:13 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !agreed Unsure whether the Fedora Council is the right group to drive this, even though the idea is great. Our capacity to do this work is limited. We will leave the next two weeks for final comments, and if we are unable to staff the ticket by the next Council meeting, we will close this ticket as `declined`.
2024-07-17 14:36:37 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Maybe we can find a more appropriate home for this. It makes more sense as something that a Council member would be like a sponsor of, versus the Council itself driving this
2024-07-17 14:37:25 <@amoloney:fedora.im> ^^ this I like - agreed!
2024-07-17 14:37:37 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Anything else here? Or shall I go to the next ticket?
2024-07-17 14:37:48 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Next :)
2024-07-17 14:38:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info "But the first part "If it is proprietary, it cannot be included in Fedora. (Binary firmware is the only exception to this" is not a legal requirement. We could (but, um, clearly will not) choose to start shipping proprietary software which is licensed in a way that lets us redistribute it. It's our policy choice that informs the license rules."
2024-07-17 14:38:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic #411: Policy proposal: formalizing Fedora's open source requirements
2024-07-17 14:38:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info Related to discussion about abolishing the Fedora Project Contributor Agreement (FPCA).
2024-07-17 14:38:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/411
2024-07-17 14:39:17 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I think this ticket is less "decide if we will work on it" and more "this needs an author"
2024-07-17 14:39:51 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I think it is clear that it needs to happen, but nothing can happen until we have a policy draft to get feedback on.
2024-07-17 14:39:54 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Would this be a good hackfest topic?
2024-07-17 14:40:16 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Or should we try to bribeβ ask Richard nicely to write it for us?
2024-07-17 14:41:35 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Maybe we could write some principles for this at the hackfest, and then pass those principles to Richard to guide the content of the policy?
2024-07-17 14:42:00 <@jonatoni:fedora.im> Considering the work we have to do for the strategy, probably this would be super helpful for us
2024-07-17 14:42:40 <@bt0dotninja:fedora.im> Sounds good π
2024-07-17 14:43:19 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I like the idea of us coming up with the principles of what the policy should be. Like "do's" and "don'ts"
2024-07-17 14:43:36 <@jflory7:fedora.im> We can workshop that together as the Council at the Flock hackfest and also after, for folks who cannot attend in-person
2024-07-17 14:43:45 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Then pass it to Richard once we are happy with it
2024-07-17 14:43:53 <@amoloney:fedora.im> +1
2024-07-17 14:44:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I think knowing what we want the policy to accomplish will make it easier for Richard to write, and also avoids us having to think like a lawyer and focus on the values more
2024-07-17 14:44:28 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Aoife Moloney: I'll turn to you on this one to lodge this as a discussion topic for the Flock Council hackfest session :)
2024-07-17 14:44:35 <@jflory7:fedora.im> But let me write this up for the minutes.
2024-07-17 14:44:37 <@amoloney:fedora.im> On it :)
2024-07-17 14:45:53 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !agreed To move this forward, the Council will start work at the Flock 2024 Council hackfest on determining principles of what the Fedora open source policy should do and not do. After Flock, we will continue to workshop this with other Council members not at Flock. Once we are happy with the principles, we will share them with Richard Fontana for collaborating on turning the principles until an actual policy that covers our Freedom Foundation and also supersedes the FPCA.
2024-07-17 14:46:10 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !action @amoloney Add a "Fedora open source policy values" topic to the Flock 2024 Council hackfest agenda
2024-07-17 14:46:13 <@jflory7:fedora.im>
2024-07-17 14:46:23 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Anything else on the FPCA/open source policy ticket?
2024-07-17 14:47:37 <@bt0dotninja:fedora.im> Not from me
2024-07-17 14:48:06 <@amoloney:fedora.im> nope
2024-07-17 14:48:14 <@amoloney:fedora.im> you had it covered
2024-07-17 14:48:26 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Forward and onwards.
2024-07-17 14:49:26 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Oh, here is a good one
2024-07-17 14:49:42 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/391
2024-07-17 14:49:42 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic #391: Fedora Code of Conduct Supplemental Documentation - CoC
2024-07-17 14:50:04 <@jflory7:fedora.im> So, this ticket is very old. And a lot of the supplemental documentation, we did publish following the February 2023 hackfest in Frankfurt.
2024-07-17 14:50:11 <@jflory7:fedora.im> However, there is a contradiction we have.
2024-07-17 14:50:27 <@jflory7:fedora.im> This is just totally wrong.
2024-07-17 14:50:29 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/council/policy/coc-response-policy/
2024-07-17 14:50:52 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Like this is not how our CoC Committee works at all. This is from 2018. We should deprecate this policy.
2024-07-17 14:51:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> But I guess because it is a policy, we have to do the policy change policy to retire the policy.
2024-07-17 14:51:31 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I don't have capacity right now to do the policy chance policy work, but I could do it after Flock most probably
2024-07-17 14:51:34 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Is this something we still need to work on though?
2024-07-17 14:51:40 <@jflory7:fedora.im> We need to remove the old policy.
2024-07-17 14:51:46 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Once that is done, then this ticket can be closed IMHO.
2024-07-17 14:52:24 <@amoloney:fedora.im> ok well getting to that bottom line makes it a lot more clearer for me so thats been useful!
2024-07-17 14:52:53 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I think we can just acknowledge this as the needful work so it is clear on what we need to do to ultimately close this
2024-07-17 14:52:57 <@jflory7:fedora.im> And revisit after Flock
2024-07-17 14:53:03 <@amoloney:fedora.im> ack
2024-07-17 14:53:08 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I think it is really just admin work to close this out, not anything too visionary
2024-07-17 14:53:15 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Marie did the hard work for this already
2024-07-17 14:54:34 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !agreed Likely revisit after Flock. We have supplementary documentation in the Code of Conduct now and this was published following the February 2023 Council hackfest. However, the contradicting Council policy about the Code of Conduct from 2018 needs to be retired, since our current CoC Committee structure supersedes the old policy. After Flock, we can conduct the policy change policy to retire the old CoC policy.
2024-07-17 14:54:40 <@jflory7:fedora.im>
2024-07-17 14:54:45 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I think that is all that is needed there TBH
2024-07-17 14:54:48 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Anything else?
2024-07-17 14:55:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> π₯
2024-07-17 14:55:53 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic Open floor
2024-07-17 14:56:09 <@jflory7:fedora.im> There is no way in Beefy Miracle that we are going to cover moderation guidelines in four minutes. π
2024-07-17 14:56:21 <@jflory7:fedora.im> But this was a good cadence. We got through a lot of tickets.
2024-07-17 14:56:32 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I can work on updating the tickets from the meeting discussion in my afternoon later today.
2024-07-17 14:56:36 <@amoloney:fedora.im> No, definitely not!
2024-07-17 14:56:41 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Is there anything else folks want to bring up before we wrap?
2024-07-17 14:57:26 <@amoloney:fedora.im> A note - there are some tickets that could be worked on, so I would suggest and encourage council members to seldf-select a ticket or two to own/drive the work
2024-07-17 14:57:39 <@amoloney:fedora.im> A note - there are some tickets that could be worked on, so I would suggest and encourage council members to self-select a ticket or two to own/drive the work
2024-07-17 14:57:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Maybe some empowerment on our existing tickets during the hackfest could be helpful? Like trying to get everyone some clear mini-project to work on?
2024-07-17 14:58:07 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Love that idea :)
2024-07-17 14:58:15 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Ill add it to the agenda
2024-07-17 14:58:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !idea Save time at our Flock 2024 Council hackfest to review the ticket queue and empower non-Initiative Council members to own a ticket and advance our backlog of needed work.
2024-07-17 14:59:15 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I am going to exclude the Initiative Council members because, well, they are already doing a lot of work on their Initiatives :)
2024-07-17 14:59:33 <@jflory7:fedora.im> With that folksβ¦
2024-07-17 14:59:37 <@jflory7:fedora.im> We are more or less at time!
2024-07-17 14:59:38 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Yes this should be the core council members
2024-07-17 14:59:53 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Thanks for your attention today, especially amid the split-brain nature of today's calendar :D
2024-07-17 14:59:56 <@amoloney:fedora.im> thank you for running the meeting Justin!
2024-07-17 15:00:00 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Justin W. Flory (he/him): ++
2024-07-17 15:00:01 <@jflory7:fedora.im> See y'all next time. Have a great week! π
2024-07-17 15:00:03 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !endmeeting