18:00:36 #startmeeting Ansible Community Meeting 18:00:36 Meeting started Wed May 19 18:00:36 2021 UTC. 18:00:36 This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 18:00:36 The chair is felixfontein. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:36 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:00:36 The meeting name has been set to 'ansible_community_meeting' 18:00:36 #topic Agenda https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/539 18:00:36 abadger1999 acozine andersson007_ baptistemm bcoca briantist cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard felixfontein geerlingguy gundalow gwmngilfen ikhan_ jillr jtanner lmodemal misc nitzmahone resmo samccann tadeboro cidrblock thaumos zbr: ping! 18:00:40 #info Agenda: https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/539 / Topics: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics 18:00:43 o/ 18:00:43 #topic Updates 18:00:45 o/ 18:00:46 o/ 18:00:49 o/ 18:00:50 o/ 18:00:53 #chair acozine cybette andersson007_ dmsimard apple4ever 18:00:53 Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ apple4ever cybette dmsimard felixfontein 18:00:54 Óla 18:00:56 o/ 18:00:57 felixfontein: irccloud will at least prompt you before doing it 18:01:03 #chair abadger1999 jillr agaffney 18:01:03 Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr 18:01:04 o/ 18:01:14 #chair cyberpear 18:01:14 Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr 18:01:24 o/ 18:01:27 .hello 18:01:27 sivel: (hello ) -- Alias for "hellomynameis $1". 18:01:32 #chair relrod sivel 18:01:32 Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr relrod sivel 18:01:56 now my pushover gets blown up by zodbot :) 18:02:04 #info Ansible 4.0.0 has been released! 18:02:07 o/ 18:02:08 :) 18:02:13 #chair samccann 18:02:13 Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr relrod samccann sivel 18:02:28 \o/ 18:02:29 o/ (in read-only mode for cca 15 minutes because kiddos) 18:02:52 #chair tadeboro_ 18:02:52 Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr relrod samccann sivel tadeboro_ 18:02:54 o/ 18:03:05 #chair resmo 18:03:05 Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ 18:03:55 if have an influx today to discuss the exodus 18:04:19 any other updates before we move on ? 18:04:28 o/ 18:04:38 #info community.general 3.1.0 has been released 18:04:48 other than that, nothing I can think of :) 18:04:50 if anybody saw the outage of the 2.9 docs . .. it's fixed now 18:04:50 #chair lmodemal 18:04:50 Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr lmodemal relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ 18:05:10 #info Ansible 2.9 docsite is now fixed 18:05:23 phew 18:05:40 that was caused by Jinja 3.0 in case anyone cares 18:06:25 #topic Move from Freenode to somewhere else? 18:06:25 #info Discussion: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19 18:06:34 hmm closer to bad requirements.txt files for the 2.9 docs problem 18:06:42 today's main topic ;) 18:07:00 * samccann pulls up comfy chair and bag of popcorn 18:07:10 :) 18:07:26 does anyone not know what we're talking about, resp. *why* we're talking about it? 18:07:28 Was wondering if that was going to be discussed 18:07:41 * markuman 🍿 18:07:47 #chair markuman 18:07:47 Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr lmodemal markuman relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ 18:07:47 :) 18:08:06 apple4ever: that topic kind of jumped in our face today ;) 18:08:16 * samccann steals markuman's 🍿 18:08:22 heh 18:08:30 convenient of it to happen for our regular meeting day 18:08:42 indeed! 18:08:43 Before talking about what we want to do, I think it's fair to say what we don't want to do 18:08:55 not: switch to slack :) 18:09:01 +1 18:09:01 right, amongst other things 18:09:28 from the comments and ealier discussions here today, it seems that something with an IRC bridge - or IRC itself - seems to be favoured by most 18:09:29 We would like to keep a FOSS-friendly solution and slack is not that 18:09:53 i think its clear that slack/other proprietary is a no go for most 18:09:58 Would anyone disagree with what dmsimard just stated? (If not, we should #info it) 18:10:23 VOTE: We would like to keep a FOSS-friendly solution (which excludes slack for example) 18:10:26 +1 18:10:28 +1 18:10:29 +10 18:10:29 +1 18:10:29 +1 18:10:34 +1 18:10:35 +1 18:10:37 +1 18:10:37 ++1 18:10:37 +1 18:10:45 +1 18:10:46 +1 18:10:51 +1 18:10:56 +! 18:10:58 +1 18:11:02 +1 18:11:03 I mean I like slack, but I would hate to use it for a community like this 18:11:06 +1 18:11:17 * bcoca smashes 'that was easy' button 18:11:34 #agreed We would like to keep a FOSS-friendly solution (which excludes slack for example) 18:11:37 #chair tremble 18:11:37 Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr lmodemal markuman relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ tremble 18:11:43 (if I forgot to chair someone, please tell me :) ) 18:11:46 what would FOOS-friendly mean ? 18:11:51 FOSS 18:12:01 misc: not proprietary system that requires closed source clients/servers 18:12:03 open protocol, network not controlled by a single company, etc. 18:12:12 misc: another irc network, or something like matrix 18:12:30 agaffney: 'network not controlled by a single company' - I wonder how many IRC networks are excluded by that 18:12:53 felixfontein: they were mostly volunteer and dontated servers and resources by several companies 18:13:05 I guess it he meant protocol controlled by a single company :) 18:13:13 the problem with freenode became that the domain names ended up being owned ... links to full story everywhere 18:13:34 xmpp and irc not owned, aol IM protocol totally owned 18:13:43 felixfontein: that's fair. I more meant a single commercial entity vs. a not-for-profit 18:13:43 * bcoca searches for aol client 18:14:08 bcoca: I recently read that aol still has dial-up customers 18:14:11 With that vote out of the way, it leaves us with the four options currently laid out in the issue: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19#issuecomment-844056193, summarized as: 1) libera.chat (freenode "fork") 2) irc.oftc.net 3) migrate to matrix 4) status quo (stay on freenode) 18:14:25 With the irritation of matrix as it impacts actual IRC users, I'd prefer that matrix not be the source, as it stands it's infrequent now, since IRC is the source, and not a ton of people are using matrix 18:14:36 3 is not a 'just this' issue, you can migrate to matrix and still share the room with irc 18:14:53 bcoca: right, it is not mutually exclusive 18:15:07 I'm confindent that a matrix bridge for libera will exist in the near future 18:15:11 So we could go with #1 or #2 and still have #3 18:15:14 I would say that 4 is not an option we should choose 18:15:36 after today's freenet spam on libera, 4 is off the table for me 18:15:37 I tend to share nirik point of view with clients, eg "full of future promise to be polite" 18:15:39 I think best case is the domain gets turned back over to the now-resigned folks and we avoid a freenode-community split, but maybe the split be required to show the apparently-hostile actors that they can't takeover the network and have net remain a net w/ people in it 18:15:39 indeed, #4 should not even be an option that's on the table 18:15:52 Should we have a vote to exclude #4 or is it safe to assume it is not something we are considering ? 18:15:54 (on matrix clients) 18:16:07 https://oftc.net/constitution/ <= info on oftc admin structure 18:16:11 there's value in having on the list so we can say we all voted against it, but I'd agree with =1 that option 18:16:11 dmsimard: I was about to ask that as well :) 18:16:18 Also seems that most Red Hat related channels are moving to libera 18:16:20 misc: if using bridge, you can still use irc client 18:16:20 when #4 is out. start with #1 or #2 asap and provide #3 later 18:16:22 *-1 option 4 18:16:23 dmsimard: I would say #4 for now, but migrate in 1 week 18:16:23 to be fair, freenode served us well for how many years? 18:16:24 * cyberpear runs into free IRCCloud server limit 18:16:34 cyberpear: with the bulk of the freenode staff now over at Libera, it seems unlikely that Freenode will survive this whole thing, even if everything gets turned back over 18:16:48 resmo: yes, and most of that staff left 18:16:56 cyberpear: in which way? 18:17:02 VOTE: We should stay on freenode (option #4) 18:17:03 -1 18:17:04 agaffney: I'm just hoping that at that point, freenode would point to the libera servers so old configs would "magically start working again" 18:17:10 resmo: see the links in https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19#issue-895369098 18:17:10 The primary reason to have an official place for chatting is so that people can communicate with like minded people. It feels like people are migrating off of freendoe en masse so I think (4) beccomes untenable. 18:17:11 -1 18:17:14 dmsimard: Hold on... 18:17:16 -1 18:17:17 -1 18:17:19 There is one ewrinkle 18:17:22 -1 18:17:26 Long term vs short term 18:17:37 I'm -1 to long term. 18:17:39 +0 I'd like to wait for other options become more solid before voting to abandon freenode 18:17:44 Not quite sure about short term 18:17:51 -1 18:17:55 -1 18:17:58 abadger1999: right, this is not an immediate thing 18:18:01 short term we use what we can, till we decide a permanent home 18:18:06 -1 long term 18:18:07 yeah, freenode long term do not seems viable if the situation keep as is 18:18:18 short term I imagine ansible staff will co-habitate freenode and whatever the future is 18:18:21 permanent home will be reflected in the doc and community sites 18:18:23 cyberpear: given that the actual resignation letters from many of the staff included suggestions like 'unset your email address, change your password, and drop your acct'..... anything to do with freenode seems ill fated 18:18:34 yeah I'm looking at today as the first of probably several conversations about long term plans, nothing happening immediately 18:18:37 -1 long term 18:18:39 -1 longterm (unless there are massive changes in current leadership/governance) 18:18:41 short term (eg 1 or 2 week, nothing more), I think freenode is the least disruptive (for us, and for whatever we decide) 18:18:43 cyberpear: it is mostly a matter of trust broken by way of how the new freenode leadership has taken control 18:18:43 #chair mmercer-nothere 18:18:43 Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr lmodemal markuman mmercer-nothere relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ tremble 18:19:04 mmercer-nothere: has someone posted instructions for that? 18:19:21 cyberpear it was included in the notice on kline.sh 18:19:29 https://www.kline.sh/ 18:19:29 cyberpear: yes, I believe on kline.sh 18:19:33 cyberpear: there were IRC-wide notices and a ChanServe quit message suggesting that IIRC 18:19:59 https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409 <= summary of freenode drama with links to all the sites/sides 18:19:59 felixfontein: sorry I'm late to the party, could I have a chair? 18:20:00 and yes, i also saw several chanserv/nickserv messages related to similar 18:20:05 #chair gundalow 18:20:05 Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein gundalow jillr lmodemal markuman mmercer-nothere relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ tremble 18:20:19 today I got: 18:20:19 09:54 -!- mquin [~mquin@freenode/staff/mquin] has quit [Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.))] 18:20:24 09:54 -!- ChanServ [ChanServ@services.] has quit [Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.))] 18:20:28 14:05 -jess(jess@freenode/staff/jess)- [Global Notice] Hi all. It feels like my moral responsibility to inform all users that administrative control of freenode and its user data will soon change hands, and I will be resigning from freenode staff effective immediately. It's been an honour to help you all. 18:21:33 * andersson007_ dropping account 18:21:33 gundalow: so consensus on 1) we want foss solution and 4) not staying on fnode long term 18:21:50 between OFTC and Libera, where does it seem like the bulk of the opensource projects are moving? Libera is obviously the spiritual successor to Freenode 18:21:54 bcoca: thanks for the summary 18:22:01 irc itself seems to be the favored solution (matrix integration non withstanding) 18:22:06 agaffney: I have started documenting where projects are going in https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19#issuecomment-844204319 18:22:27 some are moving to libera (such as centos), some are moving to oftc 18:22:29 freenode, particularly the staff that have run it, have been great to us, and have for the whole of the FOSS community. I'd put my backing behind them and libera as the right place 18:22:34 OFTC has the advantage of being more stable right now (since it already has been established) 18:22:39 agaffney: I think it's too early to tell. 18:22:47 felixfontein: Yeah. 18:22:50 for now i would vote for oftc, just because its working now, libera, maybe in a few weeks once they finish stablizing 18:22:53 but that can change quickly once Libera is older than a day ;) 18:23:04 bcoca: I would rather avoid two moves 18:23:08 well, but do we want 2 migrations ? 18:23:09 Another thing to think about is e don't know what Fedora's plans are and we rely on zodbot which Fedora infrastructure runs 18:23:10 if we pick one, we stick with it 18:23:11 and as I mentioned earlier, it seems that libera is where many of the Red Hat related stuff is moving 18:23:25 abadger1999: wont zoidbot work with any irc server? 18:23:51 bcoca: probably but would fedora run it on N servers, though ? 18:23:54 do we need to pick one of the two today, or can today be "we agree it should be one of these two and we will observe/talk to other communities and pick one over the next N days"? 18:24:02 ceph is on oftc 18:24:13 bcoca: We don't run zodbot. 18:24:19 should we wait with the migration until the contributor summit finished? (having everything prepared) 18:24:19 like, there's clearly fact gathering to do. what are the things we need to know to make a decision? 18:24:24 I think *most* of the projects will move to libera, since libera was specifically called out on kline.sh and the resignation letters 18:24:30 use both and bridge with matrix 18:24:35 * markuman duck and cover 18:24:38 So even though it will work with any, unless we want to start supporting more services, we need to consider that 18:24:40 jillr: I don't think we need to absolutely commit to make a move today. We should agree on a direction. 18:24:41 jillr: I suppose it depends on how rapidly freenode devolves. And the urging that people leave freenode and delete their data asap 18:24:50 I'm not expecting, and infact don't want us, to make a decision today 18:24:50 sivel: valid 18:24:51 Hell o/ 18:25:00 abadger1999: but we could ask to have zodbot on multiple network, no ? 18:25:05 #chair Tas-sos 18:25:05 Current chairs: Tas-sos abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein gundalow jillr lmodemal markuman mmercer-nothere relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ tremble 18:25:06 the Ansible channels are the only thing still keeping me on Freenode 18:25:11 gundalow: so should we make a decision to not decide ? 18:25:19 You discuss to movee from IRC to another chanell ?? :o 18:25:22 misc: I've already made that decision :) 18:25:33 agaffney, same counts for me 18:25:35 Tas-sos: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19 18:25:49 I'm happy with the outcome of the two votes so far 18:25:50 do we need a 'temporary' home off freenode for the people already dropping from it because of said data worries etc? 18:25:52 Tas-sos: yes, though more likely to another IRC network 18:26:07 ok, so it seems we have deceded at least to do IRC, now its just 'which irc network' ? 18:26:16 In my opinion we should decide where our future home is today 18:26:24 whether we start moving there today, is another discussion 18:26:25 agaffney, bcoca: but, given that RH appears to be steering toward libera, does that not 'push' ansible to libera as well ? 18:26:30 samccann: there is already 50 people in #ansible on libera but it doesn't have our "blessing" as official yet 18:26:31 samccann: people can still be here without a registered account 18:26:32 sivel++ 18:26:35 relrod: Karma for sivel changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:26:44 but I guess that mean we should relax channel restriction 18:26:51 mmercer-nothere: no, ibm uses mostly lotus notes .. and they own RH .. not seeing us using notes anytime soon 18:26:52 We don't have enough information to decide where our future home will be. 18:26:57 Unless it's matrix.org 18:27:00 That's how I feel 18:27:05 Yes, I disagree with that, I like that the Ansible community uses IRC for communication and works great! 18:27:14 because then it won't matter what irc server we eventually tell people to connect to us via. 18:27:15 We should move, but where we need more information 18:27:22 i also have #ansbile at gamesurge.net (there were 5 people there yesterday, alone today) 18:27:32 What happened guys? 18:27:40 what is the concern with matrix? the time to setup or. ? 18:27:44 Tas-sos: context is in the first comment of the issue I linked you 18:27:49 resmo: Unless you have information on which irc service Fedora is going to move to? 18:27:51 mmercer-nothere: matrix is not mutually exclusive with IRC 18:27:51 Why so much intensity and so much haste? 18:27:59 Tas-sos: hostile-ish takeover of Freenode and most of the staff resigned 18:28:09 abadger1999: been trying to set that up in matrix, seems #ansbile-devel was setup that way but its now broken(pointing at feenode bridge) 18:28:13 (and people keep asking about it) 18:28:21 abadger1999, me? not related to fedora in any way 18:28:30 oooooooooooooook 18:28:33 resmo: sorry... /me needs to hit three characters before TAB 18:28:34 dmsimard -- true; i think matrix is the long term strategy honestly, with bridging to irc 18:28:40 So what do we want to get from this current topic 18:28:50 relrod: Unless you have information on which irc service Fedora is going to move to? 18:28:56 agaffney: Thank for the bad news! O 18:29:19 gundalow: I wanted to get the "easy" votes/questions out of the way to help shape the direction 18:29:24 Oh really? And what is the future of the freenode ? 18:29:37 Tas-sos: that is currently a big unknown 18:29:49 dmsimard: sounds good, are their any other "easy" polls left? 18:29:50 gundalow: We agreed 1) we want a FOSS friendly solution (i.e, not slack), 2) we don't want to stick on freenode long term 18:30:15 maybe Must we continue to have an IRC presence (either dedicated or bridged)? 18:30:25 it seems to me that a move to something not-IRC on short notice would be a bad idea 18:30:27 gundalow: i think that is clear 18:30:29 another potentially easy vote: do we want to decide for a new (at least mid-term) home now, or during the next days/weeks? 18:30:30 #rhel and #centos have both moved to libera, I'd bet on #fedora going as well 18:30:33 I'd say give it a week at least to settle before choosing any future home. 18:30:36 cyb-clock chimes: 30 minutes into the meeting! 18:30:38 abadger1999: https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/371 - but they were already moving to matrix before this. 18:30:41 Yeah, that's probably going to be an easy, unanimous vote ;-) 18:30:42 gundalow: I think the answer is yes but we can formalize it 18:31:02 relrod: Yeah. and that ticket was planning to keep freenod presence. I think today's events probably chanfe that. 18:31:05 dmsimard: yup, I'd be particuarly interested if there are any -1 or +0 from thisgroup 18:31:08 I see matrix as an "add on" that can come later 18:31:26 dmsimard: trying to figure out config to confirm that 18:31:29 abadger1999: that ticket is from today 18:31:32 These channels on Freenode aren't going anywhere (in the short term at least) 18:31:37 +1 irc with eventual +1 matrix bridge 18:31:40 and might be good solution for those 'alergic' to irc 18:31:49 gundalow: hopefully :) 18:32:06 definitely should keep IRC as first class citizen, IMO 18:32:11 agreed 18:32:13 VOTE: Ansible should maintain an official presence on an IRC network 18:32:17 I would love to move to matrix 18:32:18 +1 18:32:19 +1 18:32:20 +1 18:32:21 +1 18:32:23 (+1) 18:32:25 +1 18:32:25 +1 18:32:25 +1 18:32:26 +1 18:32:27 +1 18:32:29 +1 18:32:30 +1 18:32:30 +1 18:32:33 +1 18:32:34 +1 18:32:37 +1 18:32:39 eqrx: you probably can even if 'ansible' does not use it as main 18:32:39 #chair 18:32:39 Current chairs: Tas-sos abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein gundalow jillr lmodemal markuman mmercer-nothere relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ tremble 18:32:40 +1 18:32:43 voting time 18:32:50 +1 18:32:56 +1 18:32:56 eqrx: we do have a bridge for matrix now 18:32:57 VOTE: +1 18:33:07 +1 for IRC 18:33:09 #chair Fugu_ eqrx 18:33:09 Current chairs: Fugu_ Tas-sos abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard eqrx felixfontein gundalow jillr lmodemal markuman mmercer-nothere relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ tremble 18:33:12 +1 18:33:36 relrod: Ah sorry, I thought it was the future of fedora real time chat ticket. 18:33:48 gundalow: thnx, do i need to vote again for the bot to register? (unfamiliar with zodbot :) ) 18:34:09 the bot do not count 18:34:36 if we had a more formal vote, we would surely also have more formal rules on who can vote I guess 18:34:41 if basically everyone writes +1 we don't count ;) 18:34:42 +1 to maintaining an IRC presence 18:34:52 #chair maxamillion 18:34:52 Current chairs: Fugu_ Tas-sos abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard eqrx felixfontein gundalow jillr lmodemal markuman maxamillion mmercer-nothere relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ tremble 18:35:06 bridge to whatever the deuce everyone wants (matrix or otherwise) but irc please 18:35:07 #agreed Ansible should maintain an official presence on an IRC network 18:35:15 we cannot use some alternative channel? For example OFTC ? 18:35:18 abadger1999: notably, some Fedora folks are already on libera. The fedora freenode GCs already have control of #fedora on libera, etc. 18:35:20 Ok, with the easy questions out of the way, it currently leaves us with two options that have so far been mentioned: 1) irc.oftc.net and 2) libera.chat -- what approach should we take to decide ? Should we keep an eye out on communities and follow the herd ? Should we even take both and bridge them ? 18:35:23 relrod: Looks like the ticket shows that Fedora is going to libera.chat ? 18:35:29 Tas-sos: that is what we are figuring out 18:35:41 abadger1999: I think it's not finalized yet, but it's a contender and there's already a bit of presence there. 18:35:52 sivel: thank you! 18:35:57 dmsimard: I would say "wait 1 week", "no bridge" 18:36:14 dmsimard given we are already talking about bridging anyway -- bridge both and add matrix -- total coverage. 18:36:29 im fine waiting a week, i think it snot good to move to libera.chat 'right now' since they are literally in the middle of a move 18:36:31 misc: We have formal rules on how votes are counted but that really only comes into play if there's something controversial. 18:36:36 seems bridging is something IRC should handle natively? 18:36:45 cyberpear: it's not 18:36:48 cause bridges between 2 irc network seems like a bad idea for moderation, etc :/ 18:36:51 cyberpear: it does, mostly thinking matrix bridging 18:36:54 +1 to maintaining an IRC presence 18:36:55 cyberpear: requires software to bridge 18:37:14 libera.chat doesn't today support Matrix bridging, though I believe it's on the cards. No ETA. The network doesn't exist yesterday 18:37:36 +1 waiting a week, I don't love the idea of bridging but I'm open to hearing more details of how we'd manage it? 18:38:05 +1 for waiting a week, libera.chat needs some time to settle 18:38:07 I'm trying not to just jump to the end, though is the final question "Poll: IRC+Matrix"? 18:38:09 I just dislike the idea of hanging around on freenode with a "malicious" party having full admin access to the network 18:38:19 I'm happy with waiting a few days / a week, to give libera.chat some time to stabilize 18:38:39 gundalow: Vote +1 IRC+Matrix 18:38:53 No, I don't think so. 18:38:53 agaffney: I don't like it either, though do you believe there is anything bad that could happen? 18:38:54 All code is done via GitHub 18:38:59 gundalow: is IRC the 'source of truth', or matrix? 18:39:02 several times, I've not joined a community that wasn't on freenode because the extra hassle of joining another server 18:39:06 agaffney: I kinda feel that "malicious" is a exageration, and I doubt that something evil is going to happen 18:39:12 felixfontein: I think that would be a follow up question 18:39:37 There's multiple ways to do matrix and irc and I think sivel is advocating for the opposite of what (for example) gsutclif has been advocating. (and what Fedora is going to do) 18:39:42 I'd prefer moving sooner than later, but no preference for oftc vs libera 18:39:44 (and the answer from andrew lee about christell departure also make me think there is a maybe not just one side of the story) 18:39:46 (I'd be okay with either, though) 18:39:48 (though I'd need someone with more knowledge to explain the four different types of rooms we could have) 18:39:54 (as does the whole "leak" of a draft :/ ) 18:39:56 gundalow: we could also have a three-way vote: a) IRC (source of truth) with bridge to matrix, b) matrix (source of truth) with bridge to IRC, c) something else 18:39:57 webmind, +1 18:40:25 misc: I put it in quotes for a reason, but the people now in charge definitely don't have the community's interest at heart 18:40:32 felixfontein: maybe, if people understand the pros + cons of `a` vs `b` there. 18:40:43 It doesn't really sound like fedora really trusts matrix yet, but it's a subset of opinions: https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/discussion-thread-for-future-of-fedora-irc/29953/3 18:40:46 for those of us who don't already know what matrix is or how it functions, is there a quick resource you could point to? 18:40:55 gundalow: I have no particular concern, but if the now-resigned freenode staff is concerned, I feel we should be, too 18:41:04 * resmo afk for 10min -> kids 18:41:05 The ddos and spam attacks on libera.chat don't give me a warm feeling about freenode 18:41:25 assuming this came from freenode and not just random people trolling for fun 18:41:34 I share misc skepticism 18:41:39 On my moon-on-a-stick-and-a-pony is to be to have the same chat system that we use for day-to-day to be used for Contributors Summit (ie with Video & multiplayer-notepad (Etherpad/hackmd/etc) 18:41:42 misc: if all the volunteer doctors and nurses that were 90% of the hospital staff leave in horror of new mangement ... take you kidney elsewhere 18:41:53 sivel: mattdm is the FPL and been on the meeting video chats, so IIRC the status is that they're going to test matrix but unless something pops up, matrix will be their source of truth with irc for legacy reasons. 18:42:03 misc: sure possible, but seems like a big coincidence 18:42:07 misc: there is actually more to the andrew situation than what there appears to be. ALee did the same thing to another network a few years ago... it's been largely forgotten by now, but this isnt the first time hes been involved in a hostile irc network takeover 18:42:11 I'd say keep IRC primary. 18:42:15 ie: people like you and me. 18:42:30 sivel: yeah. afaik Fedora's "official" long term plan is to switch to matrix, but it's a WIP. 18:42:30 either way, I'm not willing to stay :) 18:42:41 bcoca: true, but then, should we go where the people go or should we go to a 3rd hospital is the question 18:42:51 that is current debate 18:43:07 cyberpear: irc primary with matrix extra sounds nice, don't feel strong though 18:43:09 are there any other viable choices for IRC networks than Libera and OFTC? 18:43:23 is rizon still around/active ? 18:43:24 let's have two votes: 1) IRC+matrix, 2) timeframe for move (today, 2-3 days, week, something else). does that sound good? 18:43:29 i trust oftc, seems well run and has all ducks in row .. libera is a rush job and the staff was same one that let the takeover happen here 18:43:44 felixfontein: +1 for the vote proposal 18:43:45 felixfontein: does (1) have implications? 18:43:47 its the only one i can think of that would have had a large presence/support, but i havent checked in a few years if its even active anymore 18:43:55 felixfontein: libera doesn't do matrix -yet- 18:44:01 I can vouch for oftc which has a good track record and has hosted communities like ceph and debian for a long time 18:44:06 bcoca++ also a reason not to make a snap decision 18:44:18 can someone fill me in on what matrix is, why it would be good to have, and what making it "primary" or "secondary" means? 18:44:19 webmind: I think libera will have matrix bridge soon, so it shouldn't exclude libera 18:44:28 bcoca -- not quite --- most of the *staff* had nothing to do with the takeover. It was all on C 18:44:30 cyberpear: as i said, we've decided almost eveyrthing else already, can wait 1 week to do final destination reassesment 18:44:32 felixfontein: I'm in favour of the votes then :) 18:44:44