18:00:06 #startmeeting Ansible Community Meeting 18:00:06 Meeting started Wed May 26 18:00:06 2021 UTC. 18:00:06 This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 18:00:06 The chair is dmsimard. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:06 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:00:06 The meeting name has been set to 'ansible_community_meeting' 18:00:10 #topic Agenda https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/539 18:00:22 abadger1999 acozine andersson007_ baptistemm bcoca briantist cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard felixfontein geerlingguy gundalow gwmngilfen ikhan_ jillr jtanner lmodemal misc nitzmahone resmo samccann tadeboro cidrblock thaumos zbr: ping! 18:00:33 o/ 18:00:35 #info Agenda: https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/539 / Topics: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics 18:00:36 * dericcrago waves 18:00:39 o/ 18:00:39 Hi there 18:00:43 tadeboro: o/ (from the other side ;) 18:00:44 #chair cybette dericcrago cyberpear gundalow 18:00:44 Current chairs: cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard gundalow 18:00:46 o/ 18:00:48 * gwmngilfen is mostly not here with kids but can be pinged for stuff 18:00:49 o/ 18:00:55 \o 18:01:04 DING DING DING Reminder no setting banned words in #topic 18:01:04 O/ 18:01:15 o/ but please do not #chair me 18:01:19 #chair acozine samccann Fugu_ Ussat 18:01:19 Current chairs: Fugu_ Ussat acozine cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard gundalow samccann 18:01:25 o/ 18:01:28 * lmodemal Lurking today :) 18:01:28 o/ 18:01:34 Hello everyone o/ 18:01:35 Shrews: furniture ain't your thing ? :) 18:01:40 * abadger1999 waves 18:01:42 \o 18:01:47 needless pings ain't my thing 18:01:55 #chair jillr abadger1999 shertel misc 18:01:55 Current chairs: Fugu_ Ussat abadger1999 acozine cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard gundalow jillr misc samccann shertel 18:01:57 o/ 18:01:57 hi shertel! 18:02:03 hey jillr 18:02:14 #chair andersson007_ 18:02:14 Current chairs: Fugu_ Ussat abadger1999 acozine andersson007_ cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard gundalow jillr misc samccann shertel 18:02:21 I'm here, I don't think I need chair either, unless you really want to burn up my pushover rate limit 18:02:31 #topic Updates 18:02:36 I never interact with the bot 18:02:38 any updates ? 18:03:17 #info Contributors Summit is Tuesday 8th June 18:03:23 * gundalow looks for URL 18:03:45 #info Ansible Contributor Summit 2021.06 https://hackmd.io/@ansible-community/contrib-summit-202106 18:03:49 #info felixfontein added support for collections in ansible to host static documentation which will be displayed on docs.ansible.com 18:04:02 cybette: thanks :) 18:04:05 o/ 18:04:17 #chair tadeboro 18:04:17 Current chairs: Fugu_ Ussat abadger1999 acozine andersson007_ cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard gundalow jillr misc samccann shertel tadeboro 18:04:37 acozine is testing that with a move of the aws scenario guide to the amazon collection. 18:04:55 #info this particular meeting is extraordinarily bridged to $otherchatnetwork via a-bridge-bot 18:05:05 BTW, the libera -> freenode bridge seems to be clogged. 18:05:28 #link https://github.com/ansible-collections/amazon.aws/pulls (scenario guide move) 18:05:29 is it ? I see messages in both locations 18:05:38 er, 18:05:41 #link https://github.com/ansible-collections/amazon.aws/pulls 18:05:55 something is wrong here 18:05:57 #undo 18:05:57 Removing item from minutes: 18:06:00 tadeboro: Let me see. 18:06:14 #link https://github.com/ansible-collections/amazon.aws/pull/362 18:06:15 https://github.com/ansible-collections/amazon.aws/pull/362 | open, created 2021-05-07T16:47:02Z by acozine: WIP: migrates scenario guide from ansible/ansible repo [WIP,docs,has_issue] 18:06:22 hand typing ftw 18:06:28 Hmm, not it seems to work. Maybe my internetes are bad today. 18:06:34 finely crafted links! 18:06:35 *now 18:06:51 thanks jillr :-) 18:07:35 any other updates before we move on to the burning topic ? 18:07:47 Nothing else from me 18:08:02 #topic Communication Channels 18:08:12 #undo 18:08:12 Removing item from minutes: 18:08:16 #topic Communication Channels https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19 18:08:25 Ah, nice call, thanks 18:08:39 gundalow: do you want to lead this one ? 18:09:00 Sure 18:10:16 #info link to last meeting's votes on the topic: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19#issuecomment-844405377 18:10:25 #info For many years Freenode has been "the place" to go to chat with the Ansible Team, and the wider Ansible Community. This has generally worked well. Though we know other communities exist online (such as reddit) 18:11:46 #info over the past week or so, Freenode has changed a lot. I'm going to summerise that here, though you can see the history in https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19 18:12:57 Any questions from anyone so far? 18:13:51 I'm following :) 18:14:06 Let's list the possible options 18:14:06 1. Keep Freenode 18:14:06 2. Move to libera.chat 18:14:06 3. Move to OFTC 18:14:21 I thought we voted explicitly that #1 was off the table last week 18:14:40 ^ correct 18:14:56 > We do not want to stay on Freenode (long-term) 18:15:02 Ah, yes, thanks sivel 18:15:43 So 18:15:43 2. 18:15:43 3. 18:16:12 #info aggregation of several communities' announcement to move to either oftc or libera: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19#issuecomment-844204319 18:17:19 Something to be said for both, OFTC stood the test of time (this was mentioned in the issue), otoh lot's of channels have moved to libera, bigger herd 18:17:56 Somehow I got disconnected and missed the start 18:17:57 Then individual zero or more of 18:17:58 A. Bridge libera & oftc 18:17:58 B. Bridge with Matrix 18:17:58 C. List matrix (bridged with IRC) as the default in the docs. Though IRC people still everything 18:17:58 When you say "long term" what time frame are you thinking for a move to be made once it is decided 18:18:16 Ussat: that's a very good question, and I'm not sure 18:18:35 Can people think of any other potential options? 18:18:43 Ussat: Probably this week. At least for me, I wanted to see where other places were moving before deciding 18:18:49 Ussat: most of the core team plans to leave freenode after thursday's core meeting if they haven't left yet 18:19:12 and the ones we've been watching seem to have decided. 18:19:21 libera seems to be a more popular option among the mentioned projects 18:19:21 Also, there have been reports of having another network listed in the channel, resulted in the channel being locked. #RHEL ops can veriffy this 18:19:52 For A, I would say that's a no-go, choose one IMO, since it "breaks" irc clients 18:20:08 Ussat: what's possible is that most people (especially most ops) will move after this. Weeks meetings. Some of us may stay on Freenode just to help direct people 18:20:16 Ussat: we need to keep the lights on for a while in order to avoid channel hijacks from the network while directing people to the new destination 18:20:27 Fugu_: I think we can do better bridging between IRC 18:20:36 I agree, and I would be willing to help with that if needed 18:20:46 so since we decided last week were going to keep IRC, we should just vote on libera/oftc I think 18:20:52 I know openstack is going to look at bridging with matrix and 2 irc network 18:21:20 (but I would let them be the guinea pig) 18:21:29 misc: sounds like a plan 18:21:39 gundalow: what's the big advantage instead of choosing one network to be our home? 18:21:53 Fugu_: gwmngilfen thinks it will be possible to bridge using a properly configured matrix server so that it doesn't break irc clients (unlike the bot approach we're using for this meeting) 18:22:17 tadeboro: I think we should pick one option for now. The move is already painful enough for other reasons. 18:22:41 Fugu_: lots of people on oftc, so maybe they want to join the Ansible fun. Though last time. I checked everyone in #ansible in oftc was also on libera chat 18:23:02 tadeboro: So I am with sivel here: vote between 2 and 3, and then do fancy stuff later if needed. 18:23:03 I kinda think the question is how risky would libera chat be 18:23:23 or how trustworthy the staff really is 18:23:28 I agree with sivel that at this meeting, the most important decision is simplay, are we moving to libera.chat or oftc. 18:23:42 The staff, as far as I know, are all old freenode staff 18:23:43 (like, if someone who acquired a irc network decide to somehow attack to the point volunteer get burned out) 18:24:05 Oh, so how about 18:24:05 Poll: libera vs oftc 18:24:05 Poll: people happy in principal with a matrix bridge 18:24:05 Poll: people happy in principal for docs to guide to matrix by default 18:24:24 I also think we should choose an option (between libera and oftc) now. IRC -> IRC move for now. I personally like Matrix *a lot* but we should take more time to explore the bridging options and if in future we have a proper bridging solution for multiple networks, great. 18:24:37 I like that plan too 18:24:43 I think IRC should be default. 18:25:01 fwiw, (in regard to prawnsalad's gist) it does not appear that tomaw is staff for Libera 18:25:16 gundalow: I think I'd defer the third question until after we can implement matrix. The second question maybe until after. 18:25:21 Just to clarify, default only refers to docs, not implementation 18:26:03 OK, let's vote on libera vs oftc. 18:26:03 What other information do we need to share first 18:26:13 governance (for stability) is a big issue for me. oftc has a well structured governing body. we (at least, I) have no idea about libera, but we do know that there is drama associated with those in charge 18:26:27 i'd rather not do this again 18:26:44 Shrews++ agreed 18:26:50 https://www.oftc.net/constitution/ 18:26:53 ++ 18:27:14 Libera.chat #ansible has 300 people in now. Over the past few weeks I think Freenode #ansible was just under the 1k mark 18:27:35 something else to consider is that the community has pretty much already chosen libera, so choosing OFTC may alienate part of the community 18:27:38 the larger foss community has pretty much chosen libera 18:27:52 Yeah. 18:28:07 I would also prefer to steer clear of the drama and privilege oftc but from a technical standpoint, the fedora and centos communities (with whom we share infrastructure such as zodbot) have already made the move to libera 18:28:17 tadeboro: I do not have a stron oppinion here, but most of the people I trust moved to libera, so this is where I am. 18:28:19 Whatever we pick (IRC & matrix) I will be finding way to throw money and other support in their direction 18:28:35 dmsimard: I don't think Fedora has officially decided? 18:28:47 cyberpear: they did 18:29:16 Oftc #ansible has 15 people and zero discussion (apart from saying most stuff if happening in libera) 18:29:23 in isolation my personal preference would also be to oftc, but community/network effect is highly compelling for me 18:29:32 same as jillr and dmsimard 18:29:35 I don't think there has been an official anouncement for #fedora, but there has not been any opposition to the proposal from the council 18:29:43 https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/372 18:29:51 @gundalow: i think those numbers are irrelevant. libera is the one that's been in the news, so that's where most folks are "staging" until a decision is reached 18:29:55 i've been trying to find something about code of conduct on both. I can find it for libera at -https://libera.chat/policies#unwanted-content-and-behaviour 18:29:57 gundalow: to be fair, we haven't advertised oftc as a destination whereas libera has been all over the place 18:30:08 can't find it for otfc yet 18:30:17 dmsimard: that's a fair point 18:30:19 cyb-clock chimes: 30 minutes into meeting, 22 minutes on topic "Communication channels" 18:30:23 now, if there is a brdige, the question become more "which one do we do 1st" 18:30:28 are we ready to tally? 18:30:42 OFTC has good governance, has been time-tested, so better option for primary presence, IMO 18:31:12 cyberpear: I tend to agree with agaffney that choosing oftc would alienate part of the community 18:31:39 in other words, neither of the solutions are perfect 18:31:50 even if OFTC is the "right" choice, libera is probably the "better" choice 18:32:03 yeah :/ 18:32:09 Yup, if it was clear I would just made a decision already 18:32:10 agaffney +1 - well said 18:32:21 agaffney: very well put 18:32:50 agaffney: Heh :-) 18:33:09 POLL: libera.chat or OFTC (feel free to give one line summary) 18:33:09 Libera: as there is alresdy critical mass there. Oftc (which I've never used before) does appear to have good governance. Libera paint hasn't dried yet 18:33:13 #chair 18:33:13 Current chairs: Fugu_ Ussat abadger1999 acozine andersson007_ cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard gundalow jillr misc samccann shertel tadeboro 18:33:29 OFTC: proven governance and operational history 18:33:31 Voting time 18:33:35 Do we need to hold a vote to decide when we actual vote? ;) 18:33:42 heh 18:33:44 libera.chat. I wanted to see where other projects and people were going to leap and it looks like they're mostly moving to libera. 18:34:02 libera 18:34:04 libera 18:34:06 no, we need to elect a delegation to prepare the pre meeting 18:34:06 libera 18:34:07 libera 18:34:08 tadeboro: libera 18:34:09 libera 18:34:09 libera 18:34:12 libera because I feel like our community has spoken, and that matters a ton 18:34:15 libera 18:34:20 libera 18:34:21 libera 18:34:26 libera, because it's the spiritual successor to freenode, and to not alienate part of the community 18:34:32 libera, but I think OFTC is the right choice and want to record to be able to say "told you so" later :p 18:34:37 oftc 18:34:37 libera 18:34:38 haha 18:34:45 misc: haha :-) 18:34:49 misc: indeed 18:34:51 libera because I think I trust ex-freenode stuff enough, even tho OFTC has a better record right now 18:34:53 Thats the BEST reason misc 18:34:54 misc: nice, my sentiment as well 18:35:06 misc, :) 18:35:08 libera as a pragmatic choice, oftc by preference 18:35:25 misc: should we do another poll for everyone that wants to be able to say, "I told you so"? ;) 18:36:19 relrod casts vote for libera 18:36:27 jillr: well, at least, this would record the fact that we feel we should try to bridge if the openstack experiment go well 18:37:06 maybe by the time there's a reason for the "I told you so's" we'll have some fantastic integrated text-and-video platform that can run text meetings, host and record Contributors' Summits, and cook us all time-zone-appropriate meals while we meet 18:37:08 as debian and openstack are there, we are also losing touch with them a bit 18:37:24 acozine: that is something that gwmngilfen and I would like very much 18:37:51 if the last FOSDEM is anything to go by 18:37:52 in that case we could move, not because we had to / out of outrage, but because we want to 18:38:12 libera=18 and oftc=1 18:38:14 tadeboro: felixfontein also said before the meeting that libera > oftc 18:38:28 @acozine: gwmngilfen and I have been speaking about it. Not time for this next month though we think we know all the bits. 18:38:38 sivel: check your count? 18:38:49 cyberpear: do you have something different? 18:38:53 resmo cast his vote as libera 18:38:53 misc, well, debian moved to oftc a long time ago, so we're not "losing" the link as such. 18:39:06 yeah fosdem ran pretty well on matrix with video streaming and chat all integrated (no cooked meals though) 18:39:20 Zhenech: true 18:39:26 i see 2 for OFTC 18:39:40 I also see 2 for oftc 18:40:22 after "voting time" I only see 1explicit oftc, but doesn't really matter with those counts 18:40:26 with at least 2 votes for "libera, against my better judgment, I will say 'I told you so'" 18:40:28 I vote OFTC 18:40:29 tadeboro: Actually, it is one for oftc and one for OFTC ;) 18:40:36 * Shrews hugs cyberpear 18:40:40 ok, now I see 2 :) 18:40:50 * cyberpear voted after POLL 18:41:00 * cyberpear didn't know to wait for "Voting time" mesasge 18:41:09 Wait sis sivel not count mine then 18:41:13 Did 18:41:33 gundalow: nope, just was doing naything after "voting time" :) 18:41:35 (sorry on mobile laptop is playing up) 18:41:49 -oO sivel 18:42:08 So 19 libera, 2 oftc 18:42:35 Is that right? 18:42:47 I would join the ~300 people from #ansible on libera to that poll 18:43:03 yes, I didn't count any "so I can say I told you so" votes for oftc, since the primary was libera 18:43:10 tadeboro: I got the same count. 20:2 if I count what felixfontein said before the meeting. 18:43:12 because it's only fair to take into account the direction that the community has already been going 18:43:15 gundalow: it's close enough, and it doesn't make much difference with that gap 18:43:15 that's ok, I will remember :p 18:43:33 "so I can told you so" -- if you really wanted to tell us so, you'd make it your vote :P 18:43:46 I think the vote is more than we feel that OFTC stood the test of time, but we choose libera because the community is there 18:43:46 #agreed move to libera.chat 20:2 18:44:00 Thats the BEST reason misc FWIW: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/danderson/b469912cb40964d7f5f29cd89ab85f5a/raw/ee99a8917f98a45ea690bfeaea3cc18c166bcef0/gistfile1.txt 18:44:10 bahg 18:44:12 sorry 18:44:22 New client my mistake 18:44:26 @misc That is why I voted libera. OFTC seems better from a management and technical side, but the community seems to have decided libera 18:44:42 misc: that's a good summary 18:45:17 cyb-clock chimes: 45 minutes into meeting, 37 minutes on topic "Communication channels" 18:45:34 #info we will do a blog post once the matrix bridge is setup. This will include some of the pros and cons of libera & oftc. As well as more. Importantly a promotion of the various communication channels 18:45:55 do we need people to help with the task from the todo list ? 18:46:04 Channels are already set up on libera so feel free to join at your convenience 18:46:04 https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/613 18:47:33 Review of 18:47:33 https://github.com/ansible/ansible/pull/74775 18:47:33 https://github.com/ansible/community 18:48:11 * abadger1999 takes WIP off of the PRs for updating the documentation 18:50:16 If you are an operator of an Ansible channel, please refrain from updating channel topics that mention a migration to a new IRC network since this can result in freenode hijacking the channels. We'll think of something to steer the community to the new destination. 18:50:57 * acozine hears weird noise in the basement, AFK while I figure it out 18:51:18 dmsimard: have someone asked to the new freenode staff ? 18:51:19 shall we discuss what to do w/ freenode presence? 18:51:33 misc: asked what ? 18:51:51 dmsimard: how we can move out in a way that wouldn't make them take the chan over, etc 18:52:11 cyberpear: with most everyone deleting their accounts after tomorrow, I expect our freenode presence to be gone within a few weeks 18:52:26 I'll stay connected to freenode indefinitely and still help out folks, but afterwards mention that most of the team has moved to another network, pasting them a link to the "Ansible Comms" page 18:52:32 I'll probably hang around a little while to redirect people 18:52:35 sivel: what's the benefit of deleting an account? 18:52:37 misc: I don't suppose it would be a good idea to even ask 18:52:40 misc: I think they've moved past "if we ask nice they won't takeover the channel" in the last 48 hours or so 18:52:47 I've read a strategy on twitter, but it's a bit "direct": https://twitter.com/Whreq/status/1397406194596204544 18:53:06 I'll be here for a couple days as well, maybe til end of week 18:53:10 cyberpear: I've seen account deletion recommended by ex-staff to protect against data misuse 18:53:20 cyberpear: the former staff were recommending everyone delete their accounts because they don't trust how your data may be used 18:53:22 but could be a method after a grace period 18:53:22 Fugu_: that sounds very hostile to any folks who only login occasionally 18:53:29 * misc plan to keep his account for a long time 18:53:51 sivel: "your data" is basically an e-mail and a password? 18:54:12 jillr: yeah, but at the same time, I kinda feel that not being on the receiving end of hostility could also be a change for the new team 18:54:14 IRC comms are basically public for ansible-project purposes 18:54:44 cyberpear: I don't think it was ever made clear what data are at play, mostly that any remote expectation of privacy may no longer be true (plaintext DMs, etc) 18:56:10 misc: I don't think asking is wise. The new staff may be okay (no experience with any of them) but it appears that one person has sufficient privs to do whatever they want, no matter what the rest of the staff may have agreed to. Also, the freenode "policy" seems to be updated on the whims of aforesaid person to make leaving the network justification for him to take over the channels. 18:56:53 * abadger1999 changed his email address to the one he uses for spam email and plans to keep his account. 18:57:08 At least enles/until freenode decides to delete it for inactivity. 18:57:12 resmo: re 18:57:31 so to handle the policy, I'd suggest designating all our channels here as "unofficial" but just leave it up to the stragglers to point folks to the new location as-needed 18:57:51 cyberpear: that's along the lines of what I had in mind 18:58:53 I'd also be in favor of keeping the bridge-bot running until the openstack matrix bridge experiment turns out well 18:58:55 details as to the best way to steer stragglers TBD (a bot that sends a message? a topic with a link without mentioning a migration? something else?) 18:59:23 dmsimard: I'd be leary of doing it w/ a bot 19:00:07 cyberpear: well I'm not going to individually PM several hundred folks :p 19:00:23 * Ussat has to run to a work meeting, thanks for all the info folks 19:00:30 what's the current #topic? announcement policies, bots, something else? 19:00:31 Ussat: thanks for coming 19:00:32 cyberpear: People are worried about what the new freenode owner will be doing with the data so I don't think a bot would be advisable. 19:00:54 dmsimard: abadger1999 the chat data is already public... what could they do? 19:00:56 The people who care won't want it for the same reasons they left freenode. 19:00:58 the worst would be spam 19:01:01 jillr: we are on "what to do with our freenode presence" 19:01:02 cyb-clock chimes: 1 HOUR into the meeting! 19:01:11 dmsimard: ta 19:01:16 and freenode already had a security breach in 2014, who didn't end the world, afaik 19:01:17 maybe have the link-bot only relay registered users messages? 19:01:24 which I don't want to #topic as to avoid getting hijacked in the middle of the meeting :) 19:01:40 totally makes sense :) 19:01:49 I'll stick around on the docs channel for a week or two at least 19:02:12 I'm fine with the idea of an unofficial presence if there are people in the community lurking in it 19:02:15 once we have the docs updated we can post links to that page 19:02:27 (that page == our communications page) 19:02:52 there have always been unofficial communities on unofficial comms (discord, oftc, etc). have at. 19:05:13 I think we can work out the details off-meeting 19:05:27 So next community meeting will be on libera.chat then 19:06:36 Was there another topic that needed to be discussed today ? https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues 19:07:07 I'd say do Open Floor real quick then close if nothing time-sensitive 19:07:15 yep 19:07:18 #topic open floor 19:08:42 I guess I can say that #ara will follow the community to libera 19:09:31 #ansible-lint and #ansible-molecule are also already set up there 19:09:45 dmsimard: on lib-ara ? 19:09:50 ouch 19:09:56 misc: punny :) 19:10:17 if nothing else, closing in 30s 19:10:52 thanks for coming to the last community meeting on freenode :) :( :/ 19:10:55 #endmeeting