19:02:41 <jillr> #startmeeting Ansible D&I WG Agenda: https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/577 19:02:41 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Feb 18 19:02:41 2021 UTC. 19:02:41 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 19:02:41 <zodbot> The chair is jillr. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:02:41 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 19:02:41 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'ansible_d&i_wg_agenda:_https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/577' 19:03:24 <jillr> oh hey, clear agenda! 19:03:28 <jillr> #topic open floor 19:07:05 <tadeboro> Just saying hi to all. And I guess also bye ;) 19:07:31 <jillr> #chair tadeboro 19:07:31 <zodbot> Current chairs: jillr tadeboro 19:07:43 <jillr> someone might still show up with a topic :) 19:07:43 <misc> hi 19:07:48 <jillr> I'll keep it open for a few minutes 19:07:49 <misc> no topic 19:07:52 <jillr> #chair misc 19:07:52 <zodbot> Current chairs: jillr misc tadeboro 19:07:56 <jillr> o/ 19:08:29 <misc> (even if I have some ideas...) 19:08:48 <jillr> ideas are welcome 19:09:05 <misc> sure 19:09:48 <samccann> \o 19:09:56 <misc> so, people are making meetups (or will in the future), do we have a set of recommendation around D&I ? 19:10:29 <misc> (the current discussion about ungendered toilet at $work made me wonder about that, but I guess there is maybe more to do) 19:10:29 <samccann> so more an info - we have a note that the top of some ansible docs about conscious language initiative at red hat 19:10:41 <jillr> I don't actually know if we require a CoC for meeups 19:10:44 <samccann> https://docs.ansible.com/ansible/devel/user_guide/index.html 19:10:58 <jillr> samccann: that's awesome! 19:11:27 <samccann> not sure she's in this channel but lmodemal did the real work. I'm just the messenger :-) 19:11:33 <jillr> misc: I was late to this meeting reply to that :) 19:12:52 <misc> jillr: which meeting ? 19:13:07 <jillr> I don't see anything in the current organizer info about requiring a CoC for a new meetup, https://www.ansible.com/community/events/ansible-meetups?extIdCarryOver=true&sc_cid=701f2000001OH6uAAG 19:13:41 <jillr> misc: oh just the email thread about ungendered restrooms, unless there's other threads? 19:13:54 <jillr> sorry, should pick one topic - 19:14:06 <jillr> #topic D&I recommendations for meetups 19:14:29 <misc> jillr: latest mail from gina, I am still answering :) 19:14:48 <misc> but in fact, I think there is maybe things to do for meetup 19:15:14 <jillr> do we know who answers meetup@ansible.com? is that the community team? 19:15:41 <jillr> it's possible that once they get in touch with a potential organizer they talk about things like CoCs, but it would be nice to have some public info 19:15:55 <misc> jillr: it go to ansible-community-events@rh 19:16:29 <misc> (or at least, that's what Puppet say) 19:17:14 <jillr> I assume marketing maintains https://www.ansible.com/community/events/ansible-meetups, so we'd have to go through them to get anything added about CoCs 19:17:35 <misc> I think this was gregdk who dealt with that 19:17:58 <misc> we had some discussion about meetup pricing and limitations, and how we worked around that 19:18:02 <jillr> ah, cool - robyn isnt in here it looks like but we can ping her 19:18:37 <misc> but thing might have changed since 19:18:45 <jillr> in the interest of being formal, 19:19:26 <jillr> Proposal: Ansible Meetups should have a Code of Conduct, and that requirement should be reflected in the public docs for organizers. 19:19:45 <jillr> the community team would need to work with existing meetups to work towards compliance with that 19:20:07 <jillr> any alternative proposals? 19:20:26 <jillr> or did I misunderstand the goal? 19:20:41 <misc> what I had in mind was more about recommendation 19:21:02 <misc> cause I think the CoC already apply to meetup 19:21:13 <misc> now, if that's not apparent, this is a problem, of course 19:21:40 <jillr> yeah that's what I was trying to find, something that said "if you run a meetup you have to use our CoC" 19:22:17 <jillr> I guess it's in the CoC itself, "All Ansible events and participants therein are governed by this Code of Conduct and anti-harassment policy." 19:22:32 <misc> which also bring the interesting question of translation :) 19:22:40 <thedoubl3j> the CoC does mention something to the tune of "Specifically, this Code of Conduct covers participation in all Ansible-related...and public meetings." 19:22:56 <thedoubl3j> But I think a reminder on that page wouldn't be a bad idea 19:22:56 <felixfontein> hi! 19:22:59 <felixfontein> (sorry for being late) 19:23:02 <jillr> oh hai! 19:23:08 <jillr> #chair felixfontein thedoubl3j 19:23:08 <zodbot> Current chairs: felixfontein jillr misc tadeboro thedoubl3j 19:23:28 <thedoubl3j> that page being the "setting up a meetup" or whichever 19:25:57 <jillr> do we want to ask marketing (or whoever owns that page) to add a line calling out to prospective meetup organizers that their event is subject to the ansible coc? 19:26:34 <misc> yeah 19:26:56 <misc> but so do we want to have meetup organizer to remind that on the meetup page, or more ? 19:28:48 <jillr> I think that's reasonable to ask for 19:29:17 <misc> yeah 19:29:28 <misc> but so, should we audit that later ? 19:29:38 <misc> I mean, could be a script... 19:29:51 <misc> (not sure if we want to get nagios alter for that) 19:29:55 <misc> alerts 19:30:26 <jillr> I'd take that over spurious swap alerts from nagios 19:30:53 <jillr> #action jillr to figure out who can update the meetup organizer page with a note about CoCs 19:31:23 <jillr> what's the action we want about the meetup.com pages? I assume different people maintain that than the anisble.com page 19:31:33 <cybette> sorry I'm still busy putting Bullhorn together. I'm receiving all meetup@ emails 19:31:42 <misc> that's maintained by the individual meetup owners 19:31:42 <jillr> no worries! 19:31:44 <jillr> #chair cybette 19:31:44 <zodbot> Current chairs: cybette felixfontein jillr misc tadeboro thedoubl3j 19:33:02 <jillr> is it, we want to ask the community team to connect with meetup organizers and make sure they understand the value of actively promoting the Ansible CoC to their memebers, and encourage them to highlight it at events and online? 19:33:04 <cybette> and I have access to the meetup.com pages as well (but not ansible.com) 19:33:50 <cybette> and I linked to CoC for contributor summit https://www.eventbrite.com/e/ansible-contributor-summit-202103-registration-141735886853 19:34:02 <jillr> I wonder if there's prior art from Fedora or similar for how to make sure your community event organizers are all on board with how to communicate and enforce a CoC 19:34:52 <misc> Fedora do not do meetup, but I guess kuberentes community might have some ideas 19:36:03 <misc> (I can't type today, and can't even blame my phone keyboard...) 19:36:12 <cybette> at least Kubernetes/CNCF meetups don't seem to have CoCs on their meetup.com pages 19:36:16 <cybette> (the ones I'm in) 19:36:54 <jillr> maybe that's a good start, can we think of any meetups or user groups that do this (and well) already? 19:37:38 <misc> I kinda wonder if that shouldn't be in the platform directly 19:37:48 <misc> but maybe that would defeat the purpose 19:38:41 <jillr> my local RHUG does not note a CoC (on meetup.com or on events.redhat.com o.O) 19:39:21 <jillr> so I guess, it's not really an industry standard anyway :) 19:39:59 <misc> yeah, and I also suspect meetup organisers might not be prepared to handle that :/ 19:40:17 <cybette> OpenShift Commons gathering: "Code of Conduct: We follow the Code of Conduct of other events such as KubeCon..." https://commons.openshift.org/gatherings/OpenShift_Commons_Gathering_at_Red_Hat_Summit_2021.html 19:41:20 <jillr> for big things like AnsibleFest we're good about making the CoC clear, I think the question is do we want to adopt that for things like meetups? 19:41:50 <jillr> or is that overkill? (can you have too much CoC communication?) 19:42:14 <cybette> I don't think I've ever seen a CoC for informal meetups. doesn't mean that it's not a good idea, I just haven't seen it done. 19:42:39 <misc> I think you can have too much, yes, like you can have too much popup to ask about permissions :) 19:42:45 <cybette> :D 19:42:51 <misc> but then, what would be too much, and how do we measure it ? 19:43:01 <jillr> I tried to get my LUG to adopt one once. it ended up being mostly bickering that didn't ultimately go anywhere. :/ that's the closest experience I have. 19:44:55 <jillr> cybette: do we ever survey meetup organizers? like a check-in to see how things are going? 19:45:15 <jillr> maybe we could ask the community organizers for their input, before making decisions for them 19:45:46 <cybette> not really, we have some fairly active groups and many inactive ones, especially since last year. but I'm in frequent contact with the active ones, I can probably ask for their input 19:46:06 <jillr> like, are you familiar with the Ansible CoC? do you feel comfortable/confident with your ability to apply it? could we help you in this area? 19:46:25 <jillr> we could probably come up with better questions, but that kind of idea 19:47:14 <misc> which is the perfect timing to point to the latest videos of our coworkers: http://communitycentral.tv/ "Surveying Your Community" 19:47:39 <misc> (today presentation soon on youtube, really good summary of survey, in case people didn't see) 19:47:48 <cybette> yeah I missed that, need to watch the recording. 19:48:12 <misc> (and to be clear, I do not have OKRs about bringing viewers) 19:48:18 <jillr> hehe 19:48:33 <misc> but such a survey on D&I seems like a great idea 19:49:01 <cybette> we can get Gwmngilfen to help with it 19:49:36 <jillr> it could potentially be broader than just CoCs, maybe there are other D&I topics we could ask about 19:50:09 <jillr> yes, his help in crafting any survey would be awesome 19:50:13 <cybette> yep 19:51:04 <misc> well, a small survey to start seems better, from what I understood 19:51:23 <jillr> yeah not huge, but maybe a couple focused questions 19:51:45 <misc> so which questions would we want answered ? 19:52:13 <misc> the D&I you proposed looked good 19:53:28 <jillr> I'm not even sure if we have other questions, but if we did it might be nice to sneak 1 or 2 in (if it made sense) 19:54:17 <jillr> so I guess, other than "do you have what you need about CoCs" is there anything else D&I related we'd like to talk to our meetup organizers about? 19:54:56 <misc> if they already had to handle CoC incident for others community or something like this ? 19:55:10 <misc> (I guess the answer would be "no", but maybe I would be surprised) 19:56:48 <jillr> who is able to talk to gwmngilfen about setting up a survey? I'm pretty sure he's not online at this time 19:57:14 <misc> I can send him a email 19:57:31 <misc> but then, do we want a ticket somewhere ? 19:57:40 <jillr> #action misc to email gwmngilfen for help with our meetup survey ideas 19:57:47 <jillr> yeah we should file it on the community github 19:58:14 <cybette> maybe open an issue and assign it to him 19:58:18 * jillr does so real quick... 20:01:16 <jillr> https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/588 20:02:55 <jillr> any other things we want to cover on that topic? 20:03:11 <misc> not from me 20:03:36 <misc> (and I keep others ideas for next time you say "we do not have a topic") 20:03:43 <jillr> :) 20:04:16 <jillr> we're at time so if they aren't pressing we can close for today? 20:04:29 <cybette> one more thing 20:04:34 <cybette> Is just linking to CoC for contributor summit enough or should I elaborate more? https://www.eventbrite.com/e/ansible-contributor-summit-202103-registration-141735886853 20:04:38 <jillr> unless we want to go for 2 hours like the community meetings ;) 20:05:03 <jillr> cybette: for me, the link is good 20:05:20 <cybette> ok thanks :) 20:05:56 * cybette goes back to bull-fighting with bullhorn. will try to be more present next time 20:06:06 <jillr> good luck! 20:06:12 <cybette> thanks! 20:06:14 <misc> you were already plenty of present, no worry :) 20:06:27 <jillr> thanks everyone 20:06:31 <jillr> #endmeeting