19:13:01 <rbergeron> #startmeeting community-working-group
19:13:01 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Apr 20 19:13:01 2016 UTC.  The chair is rbergeron. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:13:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:13:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'community-working-group'
19:13:04 <jimi|ansible> for the almost but not quite record
19:13:07 <rbergeron> #chair gregdek
19:13:07 <zodbot> Current chairs: gregdek rbergeron
19:13:23 <rbergeron> hey! YAM (yet another meeting) time
19:14:05 <rbergeron> I guess (before I dive in) I'd like to wrap up one point from the previous meeting, which is something we'd probably figure out in this meeting anyhow:
19:14:07 * bcoca goes get coffee
19:14:33 <rbergeron> How do we want to handle the ongoing discussion re: modules / requirements / idempotency / philosophies / etc -- do we want to schedule that into a future core irc meeting?
19:14:43 <rbergeron> outside of the new modules timeslot?
19:14:52 <rbergeron> jimi|ansible: thoughts? if you ahven't disappeared?
19:15:15 <jimi|ansible> still here, i think obviously the best thing to do is have written down guidelines
19:15:34 <jimi|ansible> 1) don't write modules that just execute random strings of commands
19:15:54 <jimi|ansible> i don't think we spell that out exactly in the module writing docs, but we should
19:15:58 <bcoca> 2) don't writhe 'thin' wrappers to api/cli
19:16:05 <rbergeron> jimi|ansible: i guess what i'm looking for is "when are we goign to figure out what needs to be done and who is oging to do that stuff"
19:16:09 <jimi|ansible> in some cases, it might be unavoidable, but those should be the exception, not the rule
19:16:18 <rbergeron> not "sort it all out here right now" :)
19:16:26 <bcoca> i expect we enforce ALL rules with common sense
19:16:37 <jimi|ansible> rbergeron: in general, we have pretty good guidelines, we just have to tweak them from time to time
19:16:56 <rbergeron> just wnat to make sure that our next meeting isnt the same discussion again
19:16:56 <bcoca> ^ why i like the pep8 spec, but dislike 'adventists of the pep8'
19:16:58 <jimi|ansible> and not everyone knows about them, pays attention to them
19:17:17 <ryansb> bcoca: just make guideline 3 "don't be an adventist of $this_doc"
19:17:18 <jtanner> "thin" ... explain
19:17:25 <bcoca> but they are nice to point at and 'rtfm'
19:17:33 <bcoca> jtanner: little added value over running the command directly
19:18:05 <jimi|ansible> jtanner: suppose the git module did nothing but run_command(['git', ...])
19:18:09 <jimi|ansible> ^ that would be bad
19:18:15 <jtanner> what about if parsing the stdout of the command is too arduous to write a jinja string to evaluate "change" on ?
19:18:15 <jimi|ansible> (even though in some cases it does that)
19:19:05 <jimi|ansible> jtanner: that was one of the points in my module writing presentation, scraping output is fragile
19:19:08 <rbergeron> OKAY: So if nobody suggests a time to wrap that up, I will hereby say that we will discuss it in the next core irc meeting and figure out what needs doing there
19:19:18 <rbergeron> :D
19:19:22 <misc> jimi|ansible: so that's one reason to wrap that in a module rather than a playbook, no ?
19:19:45 <ryansb> sounds like a good time to me, though you may have just caused the hashing to occur here & now
19:19:52 <misc> (or at least, that would be a reason to abstract, the real fix is "get a proper library and a proper command", of course, but not all upstream agree)
19:20:04 <jimi|ansible> misc: i mean inside a module, using run_command
19:20:05 <bcoca> jtanner: i would prefer you write a filter than a module in that case
19:20:11 <rbergeron> ryansb: i detect that, i didnt realize that "when is a good time" was put through a filter and came out the other end as "let's all discuss it now" somehow :)
19:20:30 <jtanner> bcoca: sounds good, but where is that guideline written?
19:20:43 <bcoca> jtanner: i keep telling you to learn telephaty!
19:20:51 <jtanner> dammit, i'm no good at that!
19:20:56 <jtanner> make me a module
19:20:58 <jimi|ansible> jtanner: it's in the module writing docs
19:21:04 <misc> jimi|ansible: yeah, I know, but if that's not done in the module, then people do it in the playbook. of course, in the playbook, that become their problem, not ours, but still
19:21:06 <bcoca> ^ actually part of new guidelines added to developer docs not 2 weeks ago
19:21:47 <rbergeron> #info what is or is not written and what is okay or not will be discussed in the thursday core irc team meeting @1500UTC (2016-04-21)
19:21:53 <bcoca> misc: people are also free to write their own modules, but when someone gets a mdoules from ansible/ there is higher expectations
19:22:03 <bcoca> ^ also bad UX to have 'crappy modules' even in extras
19:22:22 * rbergeron pulls up her waffleboard
19:22:43 <bcoca> the reason people want modules in extras is cause it makes them 'official' otherwise they would go to galaxy/github (where they complain about not having ansible stamp/official rating)
19:22:46 <misc> true, but historically, people tend to want more rather than better
19:22:59 <misc> (and indeed, once something is in, it tend to be hard to get it out)
19:23:01 <abadger1999> rbergeron: re where to discuss... feels like Core Proposal meeting foder.
19:23:02 <rbergeron> #topic Community meeting agenda-ish things: https://waffle.io/ansible/community
19:23:11 <jimi|ansible> misc/bcoca better conversation for #ansible-devel right now
19:23:14 <bcoca> and as i've done in every job, i tried to deliver to people what they need, not what they ask for
19:23:22 <bcoca> /endrant
19:23:28 * thaumos claps
19:23:30 <rbergeron> abadger1999: well, i just put it as item for core meeting tomorrow to sort out
19:23:50 <abadger1999> rbergeron: we need some core meeting time to handle requests from users to look at their PRs
19:24:17 <abadger1999> so  ithink we need to put it at the bottom of tomorrow's agenda -- ie, we might not get to it if a lot of users with PRs show up.
19:24:26 <rbergeron> abadger1999: ack. if you guys want to defer on it tomorrow and pick another time, that's fine. I just wnta to make sure that it gets set for discussoin somewhere at some point
19:24:33 <abadger1999> <nod>
19:24:38 <abadger1999> Understood.
19:24:47 <rbergeron> abadger1999: do you guys have an agenda list somewhere so i can add it at the bottom? :)
19:24:47 <jimi|ansible> abadger1999: i was thinking the same thing, we still have proposals to go through and those don't exactly go quickly either
19:25:24 <thaumos> Most of everything so far has turned into long philosophical discussions that get put to the side anyways.
19:25:27 <bcoca> thought we left proposals for next week tuesday
19:25:29 <jimi|ansible> maybe we need to start an agenda email for each meeting... "Tell us what you want to talk about at tomorrows meeting"
19:25:36 <jimi|ansible> and if that person doesn't show up we skip it
19:25:37 <abadger1999> rbergeron: not yet :-)  We're a bunch of geeks -- without tooling we don't know how to organize ;-)
19:25:42 <jimi|ansible> ^ abadger1999
19:25:54 <bcoca> thaumos: much of the 'thin' module is already in developer guidelines
19:25:56 <jimi|ansible> public trello board for agenda?
19:26:06 <rbergeron> jimi|ansible: an easy way would just be to have an issue with the meeting date and then have folks add to that issue if there are things to discuss?
19:26:08 * jimi|ansible will stop spit-balling
19:26:22 <jimi|ansible> rbergeron: sure
19:26:28 <jimi|ansible> in the community repo
19:26:28 <abadger1999> wfm
19:26:36 <thaumos> bcoca: I know, I am just saying overall that has been the case.
19:26:36 <ryansb> +1
19:27:00 <thaumos> What I have seen other communities doing lately is emailing an agenda in their respective maiiling lists.
19:27:07 <rbergeron> jimi|ansible: sure, or in ansible/ansible, whatever works. probably in community -- less noisy to make some labels there for "meeting" or "agenda" or whatever
19:27:11 <thaumos> But I think a board would be better, because that is more dynamic
19:27:12 <bcoca> https://xkcd.com/386/
19:27:17 <rbergeron> thaumos: that is also totally a thing
19:27:45 <rbergeron> thaumos: you can double-dip on that with mailing a link to the issue as the "agenda" list -- then more transparency and also .. a dynamic list
19:28:07 <jimi|ansible> https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/83
19:28:08 <rbergeron> issue / board / whatever -- tryign to not overload us with too many boards / tools in general
19:28:17 <jimi|ansible> ^ rbergeron: add your agenda item :)
19:28:37 <bcoca> kanban/irc board?
19:28:38 * jimi|ansible emails that to ansible-devel
19:29:37 <thaumos> sure, whatever works at that point. :-)
19:30:58 <rbergeron> jimi|ansible: done! thanks
19:31:19 <rbergeron> #info rbergero added discussion on modules stuff to agenda for tomorrow's core meeting
19:32:49 <rbergeron> okay, so: gregdek is dealing with paperwork now at the tower, so I don't know that I have a whole lot left for this meeting.
19:33:13 <rbergeron> we're basically plowing through lots of stuff and i am also swamped with trying to get crap together for openstack summit next week
19:33:44 <rbergeron> if anyone has aything specific that they want to chat about here today, i am happy to discuss whatever
19:34:08 <rbergeron> but if nobody has anything, i am also happy to get back to my pile of stuff to do
19:35:31 * rbergeron will keep the meeting open for a bit to see if anyone pops in with anything
19:38:17 <bcoca> btw, since now we have location for agenda, could you update taht info in the calendar?
19:41:06 <jimi|ansible> bcoca: which calendar?
19:41:35 <rbergeron> community/meetings.md
19:41:55 <rbergeron> though -- I gues if the agenda will have a new issue every week, is that a bunch of overhead?
19:42:02 <jimi|ansible> ahh, i was thinking we'd close the issue each meeting
19:42:04 <jimi|ansible> yeah
19:42:16 <jimi|ansible> might make a label for it
19:42:22 <jimi|ansible> that way it's easy to search for
19:42:49 <bcoca> rbergeron: was aluding to ansible community google cal
19:42:54 <bcoca> but taht works to
19:43:05 <rbergeron> ohhhhhh
19:43:06 <ryansb> there's an ansible community gcal? Where is that?
19:43:16 <rbergeron> ryansb: yeah, i'm not sure if it's actually working
19:43:19 <jimi|ansible> i didn't think we had one, or at least i didn't get an invite to it?
19:43:24 <bcoca> rbergeron: and link that in MEETINGS.md?
19:43:40 <bcoca> jimi|ansible: found out right before lunch
19:43:56 <rbergeron> plz hold and i will pull it up
19:43:57 <jimi|ansible> link plz?
19:44:06 <rbergeron> i just made it - still seeing if it actually works in a functional way
19:44:10 <rbergeron> hard to see when you're the creator
19:44:17 <bcoca> works_for_me
19:44:54 <rbergeron> https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=ansible.com_dbtl63lfos1tmmqdvn5si36s18%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/Phoenix
19:45:06 <rbergeron> https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=ansible.com_dbtl63lfos1tmmqdvn5si36s18%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/Phoenix
19:45:09 <rbergeron> err
19:45:15 <rbergeron> Calendar ID: ansible.com_dbtl63lfos1tmmqdvn5si36s18@group.calendar.google.com
19:45:17 <bcoca> ansible.com_dbtl63lfos1tmmqdvn5si36s18@group.calendar.google.com  <= can use in add calendar if you use google cal
19:45:28 <jimi|ansible> ctz=America/Phoenix <- NO!
19:45:32 <jimi|ansible> ;)
19:45:38 <rbergeron> https://calendar.google.com/calendar/ical/ansible.com_dbtl63lfos1tmmqdvn5si36s18%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics
19:45:53 <rbergeron> jimi|ansible: it should import into your stuff as whatever time zone you hve set
19:45:57 <rbergeron> I suspecgt
19:46:05 <bcoca> yes
19:46:05 <rbergeron> these are things i don't know and thus :)
19:46:06 <bcoca> it does
19:46:48 <ryansb> nice, works for me
19:47:17 <thaumos> yes it does do that
19:49:03 <jimi|ansible> hrm, it says it processed something but i don't see any new calendar nor do i see the existing events
19:49:07 * jimi|ansible tries again
19:49:24 <rbergeron> jimi|ansible: you may have to click on it in your sidebar to make it show up
19:49:25 <thaumos> did you try the last link jimi|ansible?
19:51:45 <jimi|ansible> the last link leads to downloading a .ics file, tried importing that from google cal and that didn't work
19:52:10 <bcoca> no, use what i pasted, put it on input box on sidebar obove other calendars
19:52:14 <bcoca> ansible.com_dbtl63lfos1tmmqdvn5si36s18@group.calendar.google.com
19:52:16 <bcoca> ^ that
19:52:48 <thaumos> What I did with the last link is Add by URL using Other calendars.
19:52:50 <thaumos> that accepted it
19:53:38 <thaumos> that one bcoca put in is openining a mailto link for me :-(
19:53:41 <jimi|ansible> where is the "Add by URL" link?
19:53:47 <thaumos> I can slack you screen shots
19:53:50 <jimi|ansible> did you do this in your ansible.com cal or red hat?
19:54:04 <rbergeron> jimi|ansible: i did it in my ansible calendar because my red hat calendar wouldn't let me make it public
19:54:20 <rbergeron> you should be able to import it no matter what calendar you are using
19:54:24 <bcoca> jimi|ansible: look left, under Other Calendars, there is an input box, put the address i gave you there
19:54:38 <bcoca> input box has 'Add a coworker's calendar'
19:54:51 <bcoca> jimi|ansible: both
19:55:19 <jimi|ansible> thaumos: ahh... i was doing it from inside calendar settings...
19:55:21 <bcoca> thaumos: dont click on it, its for pasting into the input box i mention
19:55:42 <thaumos> ah gotcha bcoca
19:56:18 <jimi|ansible> done, thanks!
19:56:32 <jimi|ansible> yeah you can just paste it into the box there and it worked as well
19:56:36 <jimi|ansible> (what i did)
19:56:47 <thaumos> rbergeron does your method add it to your actual red hat calendar or does it make a separate calendar that shows in your list?
19:56:56 <jimi|ansible> don't know why they don't give you that option from inside calendar settings, only option there is to import an ics
19:56:58 <jimi|ansible> stupid google i
19:57:00 <jimi|ansible> ui
19:57:25 <bcoca> jimi|ansible: designed for the 'simpler' user that woudl not think to go to settings
19:57:32 <jimi|ansible> seriously for as good as google is at so many things their UI's are absolute crap
19:57:43 <thaumos> ^ agreed jimi|ansible
19:58:02 <bcoca> hehe, they have always been crap
19:58:20 <bcoca> xcept for the original simple/clean search page ... but low requriements
19:58:23 <jimi|ansible> well their main search wasn't - one box and two buttons <- pretty basic and all you need
19:58:28 <rbergeron> thaumos: it makes a separate calendar -- i am not quite sure if / how you can make that show up as blocked time in your calendar
19:58:32 <rbergeron> yet
20:01:17 <thaumos> okay, that’s what I thought
20:01:23 <thaumos> It wwould be nice if it did do that :-P
20:01:36 <rbergeron> okay, ending this meeting -- i will circle back and see how calendar stuff is looking for folks later
20:01:44 <rbergeron> thaumos: yeah, that's an issue - need to sort that out.
20:01:50 <rbergeron> #endmeeting