15:52:31 <shaunm> #startmeeting 15:52:31 <zodbot> Meeting started Sat Mar 20 15:52:31 2010 UTC. The chair is shaunm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 15:52:33 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 15:54:38 <shaunm> #topic Cross-project collaboration 16:24:41 <nixternal> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/+languages/tlh <- philbull, seems to be left to right 16:28:38 <philbull> nixternal: There are more Klingon translation team members than GNOME doc team members... 16:29:35 <specialKevin> wow, that is a little sad 16:32:41 <nixternal> lol 16:39:55 <philbull> Discussion so far: 16:39:57 <philbull> How will GNOME 3.0 schedule affect docs? 16:39:59 <philbull> we need to write for new GNOME3.0 stuff (zeitgeist etc) but UI is very unstable 16:40:01 <philbull> distros will probably hold off on GNOME 3.0 release and stick with GNOME 2.30 for a release or two 16:40:03 <philbull> maybe no incentive for downstream to contribute to 3.0 docs 16:40:05 <philbull> need to integrate downstream docs into the GNOME desktop help 16:40:07 <philbull> Idea: Summer of Docs 16:40:09 <philbull> try to get funding from, e.g. Canonical, Google 16:40:11 <philbull> get technical writing students involved 16:40:13 <philbull> need dedicated mentoring 16:40:15 <philbull> WHat did I miss? 16:41:28 <j1mc> Gnome 3.0 feature freeze is just after Guadec (start of August). String freeze is end of August. Big time crunch. 17:01:12 <jjmcd_> Suggestion outside why not call Gnome 3 beta, encourage distros to make Gnome 3 spins/remixes 17:08:22 <philbull> Discussing Mallard: Shaun and Jim are going to WritersUA next week to promote it 17:08:56 <philbull> Key Mallard selling points: Topic based; simple; dynamic content addition (DITA only has the 1st of these) 17:22:13 <philbull> Discussing differences between wiki software 17:22:25 <philbull> Fedora guys use their wiki to produce docs 17:22:42 <philbull> apparently, it doesn't take too much work to port wiki docs across into proper DocBook etc 17:22:51 <philbull> they have a wiki freeze and a wiki czar 17:23:35 <philbull> editing happens during the porting process 17:23:53 <philbull> first time they tried it, converting wiki pages to release notes took <1 day 17:28:03 <jjmcd_> shaunm is showing off yelp 3.0 17:33:17 <Gwaihir> "Print this document" in yelp is a feature: it makes it crash 17:39:42 <philbull> Mac OS X has a great help feature: search for a help topic, hover over it in the search results, and if it's associated with a menu location (e.g. Edit -> Select All), that option is highlighted automatically. 17:40:36 <nixternal> Apple requires all applications to have help included 17:44:05 * laubersm notes that Fedora docs folks tend to work in Docbook directly. The wiki though provides an easy entry for occasional or new contributors to 17:44:16 <laubersm> easily draft large or new contributions 17:44:27 <laubersm> and the conversion from wiki to xml is pretty simple 17:45:18 <laubersm> We specifically use the wiki for things like release notes where we hope that the developers and testers and users will provide information relavant to them 17:45:37 <laubersm> and during the conversion process we fix and formatting, grammar, and general readability 17:45:45 <jjmcd_> One of the discussions we had here was around the idea of wiki freeze before xml conversion. Never even brought up reminding dev freeze is coming, reminding l10n pots are coming, etc 17:47:37 <laubersm> yup - lots of reminders needed and some type of schedule to follow. 17:47:56 <laubersm> Wiki doesn't need to freeze for long though... and we haven 17:48:02 <laubersm> t been using it as much for the guides 17:48:44 <laubersm> Original/new guides or large new chunks or rework that has multi contributors works ok. 17:48:49 <laubersm> bugzilla works better for updates 17:48:57 <laubersm> and maybe track 17:49:40 * laubersm needs to look into what quaid and stickster are up to in that... should work for user guide rework and breaking up tasks for new contributors 17:56:14 <nixternal> http://etherpad.com/tUI4jbLm01 18:10:10 <shaunm> http://library.gnome.org/devel/integration-guide/stable/ 18:10:37 <jjmcd_> #link http://library.gnome.org/devel/integration-guide/stable/ 18:57:44 <j1mc> yelp 3.0 demo page: http://cadiesingularity.blogspot.com/ 18:57:52 <j1mc> (lunch break) 19:10:08 <jjesse> hello 19:14:48 <philbull> hey jjesse 19:17:25 <jjesse> hiya philbull 19:17:28 <jjesse> sorry couldn't make it there 19:17:38 <philbull> no worries 19:17:45 <philbull> you missed the free food though 19:17:46 <jjesse> forgot to put it on my calendar 19:18:02 <jjesse> wondre how much i could eat :) i have a wheat allergy 19:18:16 <nixternal> you could have had the rice and chicken 19:18:47 <nixternal> or lick hummus off of your finger tips 19:18:58 <jjesse> haha 19:37:21 <j1mc> https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntuone/+faqs 19:37:37 <j1mc> looking at how web-app parts of desktop apps handle help 19:37:51 <j1mc> https://one.ubuntu.com/ 19:37:53 <j1mc> start there 19:37:58 <j1mc> click FAQs... 19:42:38 <jjesse> routes you back to answers on lp 19:43:03 <jjesse> a lot of of ubuntu projects do that if i recall correctly, not only ubuntu one, but launchpad as well 20:16:46 <j1mc> http://www.writersua.com/ohc/index.html 20:20:06 <shaunm> http://projectmallard.org/about/learn/svg-1.svg 20:20:29 <shaunm> svg-3.svg has the link 20:29:17 <jjmcd_> #link https://one.ubuntu.com/ 20:29:41 <jjmcd_> #link http://www.writersua.com/ohc/index.html 20:29:56 <jjmcd_> #link http://projectmallard.org/about/learn/svg-1.svg 20:30:22 <j1mc> brb 20:44:08 <jjmcd_> Talking about pitching why free software within gnome 21:36:00 <jjmcd_> How does search work for yelp? Just current doc. All docs? Question? Related docs? 22:22:30 <philbull> Now discussing food plans. Milo and Rich have caused a diplomatic incident re pizza 02:15:34 <nixternal> http://blog.nixternal.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/jono.jpg 02:35:03 <nixternal> http://nixternal.com/files/song.txt 02:48:57 <philbull> http://nixternal.com/files/jono.png 15:34:43 <j1mc> http://etherpad.com/bnDi2pxN42 15:45:44 <j1mc> yesterday's etherpad: http://etherpad.com/tUI4jbLm01 15:46:04 <specialKevin> http://etherpad.com/tUI4jbLm01 15:48:59 <j1mc> http://etherpad.com/bnDi2pxN42 15:49:47 <philbull> http://etherpad.com/bnDi2pxN42 15:49:51 <j1mc> yesterday's etherpad: http://etherpad.com/tUI4jbLm01 18:03:39 <specialKevin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXmv8quf_xM 19:20:42 <nixternal> DarkwingDuck: http://etherpad.com/bnDi2pxN42 && http://etherpad.com/tUI4jbLm01 <- these are 2 docs we are working on covering what was covered here, and since you are not blind, see them please :p 19:21:59 <jjesse> but what if i am blind? 19:22:16 <DarkwingDuck> lol 19:23:41 <nixternal> jjesse: then rub your screen 19:25:08 <nixternal> jjesse and DarkwingDuck - what do you think about getting Mallard support in KHelpCenter and using it for KDE and Kubuntu docs? 19:25:18 <DarkwingDuck> Mallard? 19:25:36 <DarkwingDuck> pros vs cons? 19:25:48 <nixternal> the GNOME scheme for writing topic based help 19:25:59 <nixternal> projectmallard.org 19:26:09 <DarkwingDuck> We would have to redo our docs again 19:26:38 <DarkwingDuck> although, topic orinented would be nice 19:26:40 <jjesse> woluld it help attract more contributers? 19:28:09 <nixternal> nothing we do for documentation will help attract more contributers 19:28:24 <nixternal> we have to live with the fact that writing documentation is about as awful as being one of Jono's interns 19:28:33 <jjesse> agreed on that 19:28:41 <jjesse> i have a blog post about that as well i'm writing 19:28:59 <DarkwingDuck> what? Being Jono's intern? :P 19:29:22 <DarkwingDuck> nixternal: what do you think of it? 19:29:23 <jjesse> yeah about being an intern 19:29:33 <jjesse> in between my son napping, me napping and other sunday chores ;:) 19:29:46 <DarkwingDuck> lol 19:29:54 <DarkwingDuck> nixternal: what are we doing with these? 19:30:00 <jjesse> looks like son wok up, will read scroll 19:30:22 <nixternal> DarkwingDuck: I was actually trying to troll you guys since shaunm is the creator of the spec... it was vaporware for the longest time, and i hated it at first, but after seeing it in use this week and the stuff he is doing with yelp, i am sold 19:31:02 <nixternal> did you guys see my post on the planet? did you catch some gems in it? 19:31:02 <DarkwingDuck> syntex actually simpler? 19:31:19 <nixternal> very similar to xml/docbook, not so much about the syntax as it is the form/structure 19:31:23 <DarkwingDuck> I just got internet back after a week without today 19:31:37 <nixternal> you are browsing all kinds of pr0n then 19:31:55 <shaunm> http://www.writersua.com/ohc/peershow.htm 19:32:02 <DarkwingDuck> im trying to get my work done before you fie me lol 19:32:41 <nixternal> i am not firing you, little do you know, jjesse and I are molding you to take over Kubuntu Docs :) 19:32:49 <DarkwingDuck> LOL 19:33:14 <DarkwingDuck> why not, I can't program LOL 19:34:36 <DarkwingDuck> nixternal: here is one question about Mallard... 19:34:57 <DarkwingDuck> we were talking about using the KDE docs for base and only include Kubuntu spec docs 19:35:19 <DarkwingDuck> would the transfer to Mallard from Docbook derail this idea? 19:35:34 <nixternal> nope 19:36:25 <DarkwingDuck> why not then. We were already talking about for Lucid +1 doing a HUGE topic style change anyway... 19:36:35 <DarkwingDuck> If Mallard would better support it... 19:38:06 <DarkwingDuck> Is there an auto intergration or, would it be another re-write? 19:43:33 <nixternal> rewrite :) 19:44:00 <nixternal> once we have a good spec on freedesktop.org, I can do mockups and change descriptions 19:44:33 <DarkwingDuck> Actually, pouring over the site I kinda like it 19:45:04 <DarkwingDuck> it'll still be happy with bzr right? 19:47:28 <DarkwingDuck> what's that little icon called on the plasma desktop for editing, locking/unlocking and all that... 19:51:09 <nixternal> yup 19:51:21 <nixternal> the cashew? 19:51:51 <DarkwingDuck> thank you 19:52:28 <DarkwingDuck> well, after we finish these docs we should get a plan together to push toward mallard 19:52:33 <DarkwingDuck> I'm liking this. 19:52:44 <DarkwingDuck> small snippits and then linking them together 19:53:29 <DarkwingDuck> break down how we want to do it 19:55:14 <nixternal> you got it...definitely need to get it working in kde, so I know we have JR's support as well as Phil and Burkhard's support...all i need to do is get the support built into konqi & khc, and then start new docs with mallard and such 19:55:44 <DarkwingDuck> Do, the idea is to change the KDE docs over along with Kubuntu? 19:55:59 <nixternal> hell no, that would take over a year 19:56:03 <DarkwingDuck> LOL 19:56:16 <nixternal> all kde docs need to be updated anyways :) 19:56:18 <nixternal> brb 19:56:42 <DarkwingDuck> nixternal: I would like to get involved in the KDE ones as well 20:05:26 <nixternal> groovy 20:05:59 <DarkwingDuck> Okay, I'm almost done with this damn desktop doc 20:06:48 <nixternal> w00t 20:07:14 <DarkwingDuck> I have plasmoid control and manipulating themes and backgrounds 20:07:22 <DarkwingDuck> and icons 20:07:26 <DarkwingDuck> and colors 20:07:41 <DarkwingDuck> and panels 20:07:57 <DarkwingDuck> then I'm done lol 20:08:10 <DarkwingDuck> *sigh* without those I'm almost at 500 Lines 20:19:05 <nixternal> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/2009/12/if_you_have_nothing.html 20:20:26 <DarkwingDuck> geez, this why ubuntu went to yahoo? 20:22:16 <DarkwingDuck> or, was that a marketing ploy? 20:50:43 <shaunm> #topic http://etherpad.com/tUI4jbLm01 http://etherpad.com/bnDi2pxN42 20:52:30 <DarkwingDuck> Hey shaunm 20:54:10 <nixternal> #topic Desktop Help Summit 2010 | Show Notes: http://etherpad.com/tUI4jbLm01 and http://etherpad.com/bnDi2pxN42 20:54:20 <nixternal> i treid 20:54:59 * DarkwingDuck poders linking to docs.kde.org for these customazation tips 21:00:20 <shaunm> hi DarkwingDuck 21:00:32 <DarkwingDuck> Sorry I couldn't make it up there. 21:00:44 <DarkwingDuck> shaunm: just in the middle of this move *sigh* 22:18:47 <nixternal> http://digg.com/linux_unix/Please_say_Fedora 23:44:39 <shaunm> http://picasaweb.google.com/silkemccance/2010_03_20_1stDesktopHelpSummit#5451188150957977954 00:22:23 <shaunm> #endmeeting