15:52:31 <shaunm> #startmeeting
15:52:31 <zodbot> Meeting started Sat Mar 20 15:52:31 2010 UTC.  The chair is shaunm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:52:33 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:54:38 <shaunm> #topic Cross-project collaboration
16:24:41 <nixternal> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/+languages/tlh  <- philbull, seems to be left to right
16:28:38 <philbull> nixternal: There are more Klingon translation team members than GNOME doc team members...
16:29:35 <specialKevin> wow, that is a little sad
16:32:41 <nixternal> lol
16:39:55 <philbull> Discussion so far:
16:39:57 <philbull> How will GNOME 3.0 schedule affect docs?
16:39:59 <philbull> we need to write for new GNOME3.0 stuff (zeitgeist etc) but UI is very unstable
16:40:01 <philbull> distros will probably hold off on GNOME 3.0 release and stick with GNOME 2.30 for a release or two
16:40:03 <philbull> maybe no incentive for downstream to contribute to 3.0 docs
16:40:05 <philbull> need to integrate downstream docs into the GNOME desktop help
16:40:07 <philbull> Idea: Summer of Docs
16:40:09 <philbull> try to get funding from, e.g. Canonical, Google
16:40:11 <philbull> get technical writing students involved
16:40:13 <philbull> need dedicated mentoring
16:40:15 <philbull> WHat did I miss?
16:41:28 <j1mc> Gnome 3.0 feature freeze is just after Guadec (start of August). String freeze is end of August. Big time crunch.
17:01:12 <jjmcd_> Suggestion outside why not call Gnome 3 beta, encourage distros to make Gnome 3 spins/remixes
17:08:22 <philbull> Discussing Mallard: Shaun and Jim are going to WritersUA next week to promote it
17:08:56 <philbull> Key Mallard selling points: Topic based; simple; dynamic content addition (DITA only has the 1st of these)
17:22:13 <philbull> Discussing differences between wiki software
17:22:25 <philbull> Fedora guys use their wiki to produce docs
17:22:42 <philbull> apparently, it doesn't take too much work to port wiki docs across into proper DocBook etc
17:22:51 <philbull> they have a wiki freeze and a wiki czar
17:23:35 <philbull> editing happens during the porting process
17:23:53 <philbull> first time they tried it, converting wiki pages to release notes took <1 day
17:28:03 <jjmcd_> shaunm is showing off yelp 3.0
17:33:17 <Gwaihir> "Print this document" in yelp is a feature: it makes it crash
17:39:42 <philbull> Mac OS X has a great help feature: search for a help topic, hover over it in the search results, and if it's associated with a menu location (e.g. Edit -> Select All), that option is highlighted automatically.
17:40:36 <nixternal> Apple requires all applications to have help included
17:44:05 * laubersm notes that Fedora docs folks tend to work in Docbook directly.  The wiki though provides an easy entry for occasional or new contributors to
17:44:16 <laubersm> easily draft large or new contributions
17:44:27 <laubersm> and the conversion from wiki to xml is pretty simple
17:45:18 <laubersm> We specifically use the wiki for things like release notes where we hope that the developers and testers and users will provide information relavant to them
17:45:37 <laubersm> and during the conversion process we fix and formatting, grammar, and general readability
17:45:45 <jjmcd_> One of the discussions we had here was around the idea of wiki freeze before xml conversion.  Never even brought up reminding dev freeze is coming, reminding l10n pots are coming, etc
17:47:37 <laubersm> yup - lots of reminders needed and some type of schedule to follow.
17:47:56 <laubersm> Wiki doesn't need to freeze for long though...  and we haven
17:48:02 <laubersm> t been using it as much for the guides
17:48:44 <laubersm> Original/new guides or large new chunks or rework that has multi contributors works ok.
17:48:49 <laubersm> bugzilla works better for updates
17:48:57 <laubersm> and maybe track
17:49:40 * laubersm needs to look into what quaid and stickster are up to in that... should work for user guide rework and breaking up tasks for new contributors
17:56:14 <nixternal> http://etherpad.com/tUI4jbLm01
18:10:10 <shaunm> http://library.gnome.org/devel/integration-guide/stable/
18:10:37 <jjmcd_> #link http://library.gnome.org/devel/integration-guide/stable/
18:57:44 <j1mc> yelp 3.0 demo page: http://cadiesingularity.blogspot.com/
18:57:52 <j1mc> (lunch break)
19:10:08 <jjesse> hello
19:14:48 <philbull> hey jjesse
19:17:25 <jjesse> hiya philbull
19:17:28 <jjesse> sorry couldn't make it there
19:17:38 <philbull> no worries
19:17:45 <philbull> you missed the free food though
19:17:46 <jjesse> forgot to put it on my calendar
19:18:02 <jjesse> wondre how much i could eat :)  i have a wheat allergy
19:18:16 <nixternal> you could have had the rice and chicken
19:18:47 <nixternal> or lick hummus off of your finger tips
19:18:58 <jjesse> haha
19:37:21 <j1mc> https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntuone/+faqs
19:37:37 <j1mc> looking at how web-app parts of desktop apps handle help
19:37:51 <j1mc> https://one.ubuntu.com/
19:37:53 <j1mc> start there
19:37:58 <j1mc> click FAQs...
19:42:38 <jjesse> routes you back to answers on lp
19:43:03 <jjesse> a lot of of ubuntu projects do that if i recall correctly, not only ubuntu one, but launchpad as well
20:16:46 <j1mc> http://www.writersua.com/ohc/index.html
20:20:06 <shaunm> http://projectmallard.org/about/learn/svg-1.svg
20:20:29 <shaunm> svg-3.svg has the link
20:29:17 <jjmcd_> #link https://one.ubuntu.com/
20:29:41 <jjmcd_> #link http://www.writersua.com/ohc/index.html
20:29:56 <jjmcd_> #link http://projectmallard.org/about/learn/svg-1.svg
20:30:22 <j1mc> brb
20:44:08 <jjmcd_> Talking about pitching why free software within gnome
21:36:00 <jjmcd_> How does search work for yelp?  Just current doc.  All docs?  Question?  Related docs?
22:22:30 <philbull> Now discussing food plans. Milo and Rich have caused a diplomatic incident re pizza
02:15:34 <nixternal> http://blog.nixternal.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/jono.jpg
02:35:03 <nixternal> http://nixternal.com/files/song.txt
02:48:57 <philbull> http://nixternal.com/files/jono.png
15:34:43 <j1mc> http://etherpad.com/bnDi2pxN42
15:45:44 <j1mc> yesterday's etherpad: http://etherpad.com/tUI4jbLm01
15:46:04 <specialKevin> http://etherpad.com/tUI4jbLm01
15:48:59 <j1mc> http://etherpad.com/bnDi2pxN42
15:49:47 <philbull> http://etherpad.com/bnDi2pxN42
15:49:51 <j1mc> yesterday's etherpad: http://etherpad.com/tUI4jbLm01
18:03:39 <specialKevin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXmv8quf_xM
19:20:42 <nixternal> DarkwingDuck: http://etherpad.com/bnDi2pxN42  &&  http://etherpad.com/tUI4jbLm01  <- these are 2 docs we are working on covering what was covered here, and since you are not blind, see them please :p
19:21:59 <jjesse> but what if i am blind?
19:22:16 <DarkwingDuck> lol
19:23:41 <nixternal> jjesse: then rub your screen
19:25:08 <nixternal> jjesse and DarkwingDuck - what do you think about getting Mallard support in KHelpCenter and using it for KDE and Kubuntu docs?
19:25:18 <DarkwingDuck> Mallard?
19:25:36 <DarkwingDuck> pros vs cons?
19:25:48 <nixternal> the GNOME scheme for writing topic based help
19:25:59 <nixternal> projectmallard.org
19:26:09 <DarkwingDuck> We would have to redo our docs again
19:26:38 <DarkwingDuck> although, topic orinented would be nice
19:26:40 <jjesse> woluld it help attract more contributers?
19:28:09 <nixternal> nothing we do for documentation will help attract more contributers
19:28:24 <nixternal> we have to live with the fact that writing documentation is about as awful as being one of Jono's interns
19:28:33 <jjesse> agreed on that
19:28:41 <jjesse> i have a blog post about that as well i'm writing
19:28:59 <DarkwingDuck> what? Being Jono's intern? :P
19:29:22 <DarkwingDuck> nixternal: what do you think of it?
19:29:23 <jjesse> yeah about being an intern
19:29:33 <jjesse> in between my son napping, me napping and other sunday chores ;:)
19:29:46 <DarkwingDuck> lol
19:29:54 <DarkwingDuck> nixternal: what are we doing with these?
19:30:00 <jjesse> looks like son wok up, will read scroll
19:30:22 <nixternal> DarkwingDuck: I was actually trying to troll you guys since shaunm is the creator of the spec... it was vaporware for the longest time, and i hated it at first, but after seeing it in use this week and the stuff he is doing with yelp, i am sold
19:31:02 <nixternal> did you guys see my post on the planet? did you catch some gems in it?
19:31:02 <DarkwingDuck> syntex actually simpler?
19:31:19 <nixternal> very similar to xml/docbook, not so much about the syntax as it is the form/structure
19:31:23 <DarkwingDuck> I just got internet back after a week without today
19:31:37 <nixternal> you are browsing all kinds of pr0n then
19:31:55 <shaunm> http://www.writersua.com/ohc/peershow.htm
19:32:02 <DarkwingDuck> im trying to get my work done before you fie me lol
19:32:41 <nixternal> i am not firing you, little do you know, jjesse and I are molding you to take over Kubuntu Docs :)
19:32:49 <DarkwingDuck> LOL
19:33:14 <DarkwingDuck> why not, I can't program LOL
19:34:36 <DarkwingDuck> nixternal: here is one question about Mallard...
19:34:57 <DarkwingDuck> we were talking about using the KDE docs for base and only include Kubuntu spec docs
19:35:19 <DarkwingDuck> would the transfer to Mallard from Docbook derail this idea?
19:35:34 <nixternal> nope
19:36:25 <DarkwingDuck> why not then. We were already talking about for Lucid +1 doing a HUGE topic style change anyway...
19:36:35 <DarkwingDuck> If Mallard would better support it...
19:38:06 <DarkwingDuck> Is there an auto intergration or, would it be another re-write?
19:43:33 <nixternal> rewrite :)
19:44:00 <nixternal> once we have a good spec on freedesktop.org, I can do mockups and change descriptions
19:44:33 <DarkwingDuck> Actually, pouring over the site I kinda like it
19:45:04 <DarkwingDuck> it'll still be happy with bzr right?
19:47:28 <DarkwingDuck> what's that little icon called on the plasma desktop for editing, locking/unlocking and all that...
19:51:09 <nixternal> yup
19:51:21 <nixternal> the cashew?
19:51:51 <DarkwingDuck> thank you
19:52:28 <DarkwingDuck> well, after we finish these docs we should get a plan together to push toward mallard
19:52:33 <DarkwingDuck> I'm liking this.
19:52:44 <DarkwingDuck> small snippits and then linking them together
19:53:29 <DarkwingDuck> break down how we want to do it
19:55:14 <nixternal> you got it...definitely need to get it working in kde, so I know we have JR's support as well as Phil and Burkhard's support...all i need to do is get the support built into konqi & khc, and then start new docs with mallard and such
19:55:44 <DarkwingDuck> Do, the idea is to change the KDE docs over along with Kubuntu?
19:55:59 <nixternal> hell no, that would take over a year
19:56:03 <DarkwingDuck> LOL
19:56:16 <nixternal> all kde docs need to be updated anyways :)
19:56:18 <nixternal> brb
19:56:42 <DarkwingDuck> nixternal: I would like to get involved in the KDE ones as well
20:05:26 <nixternal> groovy
20:05:59 <DarkwingDuck> Okay, I'm almost done with this damn desktop doc
20:06:48 <nixternal> w00t
20:07:14 <DarkwingDuck> I have plasmoid control and manipulating themes and backgrounds
20:07:22 <DarkwingDuck> and icons
20:07:26 <DarkwingDuck> and colors
20:07:41 <DarkwingDuck> and panels
20:07:57 <DarkwingDuck> then I'm done lol
20:08:10 <DarkwingDuck> *sigh* without those I'm almost at 500 Lines
20:19:05 <nixternal> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/2009/12/if_you_have_nothing.html
20:20:26 <DarkwingDuck> geez, this why ubuntu went to yahoo?
20:22:16 <DarkwingDuck> or, was that a marketing ploy?
20:50:43 <shaunm> #topic http://etherpad.com/tUI4jbLm01 http://etherpad.com/bnDi2pxN42
20:52:30 <DarkwingDuck> Hey shaunm
20:54:10 <nixternal> #topic Desktop Help Summit 2010 | Show Notes: http://etherpad.com/tUI4jbLm01  and  http://etherpad.com/bnDi2pxN42
20:54:20 <nixternal> i treid
20:54:59 * DarkwingDuck poders linking to docs.kde.org for these customazation tips
21:00:20 <shaunm> hi DarkwingDuck
21:00:32 <DarkwingDuck> Sorry I couldn't make it up there.
21:00:44 <DarkwingDuck> shaunm: just in the middle of this move *sigh*
22:18:47 <nixternal> http://digg.com/linux_unix/Please_say_Fedora
23:44:39 <shaunm> http://picasaweb.google.com/silkemccance/2010_03_20_1stDesktopHelpSummit#5451188150957977954
00:22:23 <shaunm> #endmeeting