17:13:31 <smooge> #startmeeting
17:13:31 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Nov 21 17:13:31 2014 UTC.  The chair is smooge. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:13:31 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:13:38 <smooge> #meetingname epel
17:13:38 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'epel'
17:13:57 <smooge> #chairs nirik bstinson smooge Evolution dgilmore
17:14:10 <smooge> #topic Robot Role Call
17:14:24 * nirik is here mostly
17:14:28 <avij> I was just browsing through emails to see if the meeting had been cancelled, but apparently the meeting is going on now
17:14:29 * bstinson is here
17:14:40 <smooge> is here
17:14:55 <smooge> my apologies guys. I got muddled
17:15:36 * rdieter lurking with popcorn
17:15:38 <smooge> ok we have 2.5 of 5 people
17:15:38 * bstinson got distracted building packages
17:16:00 <avij> that's always a good excuse, doing useful things
17:16:01 * orionp wishes he had popcorn
17:16:16 * smooge wishes he had a coffee
17:16:39 * nirik has coffee. yummy vanilla roast.
17:16:56 <smooge> nice.
17:17:14 <Evolution> sorry. present
17:17:14 <smooge> #topic Agenda
17:17:21 <smooge> 1. Roll Call
17:17:28 <smooge> 2. Old Business
17:17:34 <smooge> 3. Current Business
17:17:48 <smooge> 4. Upcoming meetings business
17:17:56 <smooge> 5. Open Flood
17:17:59 <smooge> 6. End of Meeting
17:18:12 <smooge> #topic Old Business: Dates and logistics
17:18:46 <smooge> so we have a bunch of stuff going on next month. Removal of packages and bug stompig
17:19:22 <Evolution> would be nice if we could have an email to the list covering the bug stomping.
17:19:35 <Evolution> then we can reference it for centos-devel, twitter, etc.
17:19:51 * nirik nods.
17:20:06 <smooge> i have worked with pingou and we have a calender: https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/epel/
17:20:38 <smooge> December 2nd is bug stomping day
17:21:41 <smooge> I understand about the email.
17:21:55 <smooge> I was thinking that the main things we would want to do is any outstanding package reviews
17:22:13 <smooge> and any CVE's for packages which aren't orphaned
17:22:26 <smooge> do others have ideas?
17:22:43 <nirik> yeah, those sound good. There's likely to be just random other ones that were never closed we can close too...
17:23:28 <Evolution> sounds good.
17:23:47 <nirik> we could also perhaps look at what packages have the most bugs and see if we can help
17:24:52 <smooge> alright.. I will try and make up a list this weekend.
17:25:36 <smooge> alright the next thing was Orphan Removal Day and then Dependency Removal Day
17:26:15 <smooge> I have put out another email. I have gotten one person saying they would like to look at becoming a packager but don't know how
17:26:16 <Evolution> also known as 'watch the world burn'
17:26:36 <bstinson> hopefully during bug day we can reassign some of the primary contacts and get the list shorter
17:27:18 <Evolution> there are a couple that will get people to take notice. like openvpn.
17:27:28 <smooge> I have taken pkcs11
17:27:40 <Evolution> oh, well that spoils the fun :-P
17:27:47 <bstinson> heh
17:28:16 <smooge> my next question is do we want to reach out to the secondary people and ask if they want to take the packages?
17:28:27 <smooge> they have been getting god knows how many emails for how long on this
17:29:09 <nirik> yeah, if they haven't reacted so far...
17:29:19 <bstinson> i've pinged people with ACLs for the packages i depend on
17:29:35 <nirik> I think we will also have a number of "oh no! I need that" after we retire. But thats fine too... we can unretire them with a new point of contact. ;)
17:29:36 <smooge> nirik, they do get emails that the package they are assigned is orphaned and its just a simple log in and press a button and its yours
17:29:37 <bstinson> so far nobody's answered
17:29:49 <nirik> smooge: yep.
17:30:02 <Evolution> nirik: yeah, agree. once they see we're serious it should hopefully pick up
17:30:03 <nirik> I am getting some for epel5 packages, but I don't actually want to save any of those. ;)
17:30:06 <smooge> I did it yesterday with pkcs11.
17:30:57 <avij> I might be willing to maintain some packages if need be, but the problem is that I'm not officially a pkg maintainer yet. I'd need to read up a bit on the procedures.
17:32:05 <bstinson> is there a subset of epel-wranglers who are also sponsors?
17:32:18 * nirik is happy to sponsor new folks.
17:32:25 <smooge> I think rdieter and nirik
17:32:31 <nirik> I expect the best way here would be to use the 'co-maintainer' clause.
17:32:43 <smooge> what is that clause?
17:32:52 <nirik> find someone who wants to mentor you that maintains some package, and you can be sponsored in to co-maintain and go from there.
17:32:59 * nirik looks for link
17:33:31 <smooge> oh a clause for how to become a packager not a clause in package names
17:33:33 <nirik> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_get_sponsored_into_the_packager_group?rd=PackageMaintainers/HowToGetSponsored#Become_a_co-maintainer
17:33:36 <nirik> yeah.
17:33:40 * orionp can sponsor too
17:34:33 <bstinson> i can probably take a couple of packages and help people join via the co-maintainer process
17:35:37 <nirik> more maintainers is great. ;)
17:37:42 <smooge> #info https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_get_sponsored_into_the_packager_group?rd=PackageMaintainers/HowToGetSponsored#Become_a_co-maintainer
17:37:56 <smooge> ok anything else?
17:38:19 <smooge> #topic Current Business: Fix a webpage
17:38:44 <smooge> Alright I was going through the EPEL webpages and all I wanted to do was burn them to the ground and salt the earth after 5 minutes
17:39:39 <smooge> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:EPEL
17:39:53 <nirik> well, that could be done, but someone needs to write up new pages.
17:39:56 <nirik> It's a lot of actual work.
17:39:56 <smooge> Wikis I think are places where information goes to die unless you have a librarian
17:40:11 <nirik> I did the last revamp many years ago, and it was long and thankless. ;)
17:40:24 <smooge> I agree. My hopes of getting that time keeps getting eaten by "Hey can you do this."
17:41:05 <nirik> 3 years ago: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/EPEL_Wiki_Redesign
17:42:04 <smooge> #proposal Follow the steps in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/EPEL_Wiki_Redesign
17:42:14 <smooge> I am good with doing this
17:42:17 <nirik> well, that was the last redesign 3 years ago.
17:42:41 <nirik> some of it didn't 'take'. Like spreading out the faq stuff to areas people might look for them in and nuking the faq.
17:42:50 <nirik> the faq page is a novel.
17:43:51 <smooge> I agree
17:44:12 <nirik> anyhow, I don't currently have time, but would be happy to help others who want to do it.
17:44:22 <bstinson> would cleaning up the faq give us the most value right now?
17:44:28 <smooge> I believe so.
17:45:03 <smooge> but I am 2 seconds from nuking it all from orbit and nuking the nukes from orbit
17:45:28 <heffay> How can i help out? I'm trying to get some experience doing technical writing right now, I have experience in localization, and I have nothing else to do until the end of the year
17:46:37 * stahnma reads the scrollback
17:47:01 <nirik> well, the faq could definitely be cleaned up.
17:47:24 <nirik> I don't have any hate for the other pages off hand...
17:48:10 <smooge> nirik, my hate is mostly that they are spread out and cover things like plague, meetings from 2007, and other things that someone comes in and says "hey can I get an account on duke server?"
17:48:18 <smooge> [from last summer]
17:48:36 <nirik> well, we should archive those pages... I thought I got them all in the 2011 cleanup.
17:48:50 <nirik> can you point to specific pages?
17:48:53 <bstinson> +1 for archiving old meeting notes
17:50:10 <smooge> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL/Meetings/20070318
17:50:25 <smooge> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL/Packages/mediawiki118
17:50:50 <smooge> nirik, most of the pages at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:EPEL seem to be like this
17:51:06 <nirik> there's some, I don't know that I would say most.
17:51:15 <nirik> I can try and archive those... if I can remember how.
17:51:37 <smooge> I have a poor random number selector as my dice rolls kept coming up with stuff like that
17:51:57 <maxamillion> welp I failed today :/
17:53:09 <smooge> heffay, so I would like to say.. take the FAQ page https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL/FAQ and start breaking it up into separate documents which the main faq could refer to.
17:53:22 <smooge> If you noticed its layout is not in mediawiki fashion
17:53:38 <smooge> it is in moinmoin fashion EPEL/FAQ versus EPEL_FAQ
17:54:02 <maxamillion> alright, I think I'm caught up... sorry for being so horridly late
17:54:51 <smooge> so you could start off in your homespace User:heffay/EPEL_FAQ and then EPEL_FAQ_What_is_EPEL is the part pulled into EPEL_FAQ
17:54:58 <smooge> heffay, does that make sense?
17:57:32 <smooge> well ping me after the meeting as I am not sure you are still there :)
17:57:59 <smooge> #topic Upcoming Things to Ponder
17:58:12 <smooge> So I have a couple of things here
17:58:37 <smooge> 1) What to do with EPEL-5 as no one seems to love it but people seem to think its getting love and attention
17:58:52 <smooge> 2) What about EPEL-rolling that was proposed a couple of times in the past
17:59:26 <smooge> I think EL-5 will get a bit clearer after the mass orphaning and removals
18:00:41 <Evolution> as el5 is still supported(-ish) for a little while longer... I think the best this to let epel-5 bleed to death via the slow murder of orphaned packages.
18:00:45 <nirik> yeah, I think there are things in epel5 people still use and like, but they are just coasting along.
18:00:47 <maxamillion> +1 - agreed on the EPEL-5 thing, but I just worry users won't really notice
18:01:02 <smooge> The second one needs a formal proposal which I am looking at what kinds of things FESCO looks for as formal proposals as we are going to need disk space and machine time
18:01:07 <maxamillion> errr... they won't notice that things got removed that are already installed
18:01:12 <Evolution> so, smooge brought up something at LISA that seemed a good idea.
18:01:21 <smooge> oh I was going to say you brought it up
18:01:27 <Evolution> an update to dead packages explicitly stating that it's dead.
18:01:48 <Evolution> by dropping a 'NO-SERIOUSLY-READ-THIS' file or whatever
18:01:53 <Evolution> inside
18:01:58 <smooge> basically one of the following two things
18:02:26 <smooge> before a package is removed it is given one last update which says "THIS FILE IS DEAD. WE DONT REMOVE IT BUT ITS NOT GETTING ANYTHING FROM UPSTREAM ANYMORE."
18:02:34 <Jeff_S> hmm, I missed the meeting start... are they staying at the same time on Fridays?
18:02:58 <smooge> Jeff_S, I missed the meeting start myself and I started the meeting.
18:03:03 <Jeff_S> heh
18:03:04 <smooge> I have moved the time to 1700 UTC
18:03:18 <nirik> I'm doubtfull anyone who isn't paying attention will notice a new file in an update like that.
18:03:21 <Jeff_S> ok, thanks, I'll re-add to calendar
18:03:23 <smooge> It is at https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/epel
18:03:39 <smooge> #info Please people watch meeting times at https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/epel
18:03:44 <Jeff_S> I had no idea that existed, thanks smooge :)
18:04:17 <smooge> sorry I am on sudafed and pain killers so I hope I didn't offend anyone
18:04:54 <bzbot> lsm5@redhat.com changed the Status on bug 1058715 from NEW --- to CLOSED WONTFIX.
18:04:54 <bzbot> Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1058715 python-meld3, unspecified, unspecified, ---, extras-orphan, CLOSED WONTFIX, Push epel 7 build for python-meld3
18:04:59 <bstinson> could we also change the release "-2.deprecated" for example?
18:05:04 <bzbot> lsm5@redhat.com changed the Status on bug 1056792 from ASSIGNED --- to CLOSED WONTFIX.
18:05:05 <bzbot> Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1056792 supervisor, unspecified, unspecified, ---, steve.traylen, CLOSED WONTFIX, push epel7 build
18:05:21 <nirik> bstinson: not at all easily.
18:06:06 <smooge> nirik, we spend a lot of time trying to make sure that EPEL doesn't break anything. We haven't pulled stuff from EPEL in the past because of that. I am just trying to figure out a way to end packages that we can say "we did our best."
18:06:30 <nirik> yeah, it's a foggy area...
18:06:47 <smooge> and I don't know if I am going overkill on it
18:07:08 <nirik> we could go to all kinds of lengths, but in the end people can bypass all those if they are oblivious.
18:07:12 <smooge> Since we don't archive stuff like we do with other releases
18:07:41 * bstinson ponders some more (and runs to the next meeting)
18:07:52 <smooge> ok well we now don't have quorum
18:07:54 <nirik> I guess we could make a 'epel-depreciated-packages' or something that conflict with packages that are dead... so they have to remove it... but even then they could just do that and never read why it's that way
18:08:27 <smooge> so it is more of a way to ponder for next meeting
18:09:05 <smooge> I was actually thinking of a file in epel-release that gets updated when stuff is removed :).. but then we are at the epel-release is getting updated and automated builds are broken
18:09:08 <bstinson> if there's a proposal, could we vote in trac?
18:09:10 <smooge> s/builds/install
18:09:35 <smooge> there isn't a proposal yet.. it is a "we need to figure out something to propose :)"
18:10:09 <nirik> yeah, updating epel-release on every package removal is sub optimal
18:11:36 <smooge> OK so lets move to think about it and some proposals to cocordant vote on in the future :)
18:11:45 <smooge> #topic Open Flood
18:11:50 <smooge> anything for the open floor?
18:14:35 <smooge> ok going to call the end of the meeting
18:14:37 <smooge> #endmeeting