18:00:03 <stickster> #startmeeting Fedora Board
18:00:03 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Jul  2 18:00:03 2010 UTC.  The chair is stickster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:03 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:06 <stickster> #meetingname Fedora Board
18:00:06 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_board'
18:01:13 <stickster> #topic Roll call!
18:01:13 * stickster 
18:01:26 * spot plays that funky music
18:01:37 <walters> hello
18:01:37 * jds2001 here
18:01:37 <stickster> :-)
18:01:46 * ctyler waves
18:01:49 <smooge> here
18:01:50 <rdieter> hola
18:01:55 <stickster> mdomsch sends regrets, he is on a trip in Africa right now
18:02:09 <smooge> he is playing the role of Robert Redford
18:02:17 <stickster> smooge: I love that film.
18:02:30 * mizmo here
18:02:44 <stickster> I saw caillon come in earlier too
18:03:00 <caillon> oh yeah
18:03:01 <stickster> #info All present, save mdomsch who is on travel
18:03:11 <stickster> #topic FPL news, info, etc.
18:03:26 <stickster> OK, obviously everyone's seen the announcements
18:03:37 <stickster> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/announce/2010-June/002832.html
18:03:54 * jds2001 heard some feedback that it would be good to announce when jared wasn't on vacation
18:04:06 <stickster> #info That's the announcement of the new FPL, Jared Smith (jsmith here on IRC)
18:04:12 <jds2001> but that's just timing happenstance
18:04:24 <stickster> jds2001: Will do -- he should be around next week. The announcement noted that he was gone, but not when he'd return.
18:04:25 <zodbot> Announcement from my owner (stickster): Fedora Board meeting happening now, join #fedora-board-meeting and #fedora-board-questions
18:04:37 <smooge> I think it was to give him time to back out in the most awkward way possible.
18:04:43 <walters> heh
18:04:47 <stickster> He'd be limited in his ability to hang around anyway, since his $DAYJOB keeps him pretty busy until he comes on board Red Hat.
18:05:21 <stickster> That's not much different than it was with me -- I was busier from January, when Max made the announcement for me becoming FPL, until February when I started at Red HAt.
18:05:52 <stickster> jds2001: I'm going to make sure that Jared has a blog post early when he returns though, and that he's carried on the Planet
18:06:19 <stickster> I think he just did some blog upkeep right before he left, to prep for that
18:06:38 <stickster> Jared will be coming on board Red Hat on July 12
18:07:00 <stickster> He and I are traveling together to RDU for his orientation, in part so we can meet up with Max Spevack together
18:07:19 <stickster> And also so I can introduce him to a bunch of people in RDU that it will be helpful for him to know (and for them to know him)
18:08:17 <stickster> Also, my traveling to RDU to meet with Jared and Max will help us prep him for his first big appearance
18:08:23 <stickster> #link http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/announce/2010-June/002833.html
18:08:37 <stickster> #info Announcement that Jared will be coming to FUDCon LATAM and then FISL 11
18:08:38 <smooge> stickster, that almost sounds ominous. "max and I are preparing the Pod for Jared. All will be well with the collective."
18:08:53 <stickster> smooge: The fluid transfer is the hard part. So messy.
18:09:19 <mizmo> stickster, is that going to be the first FPL visit to south america?
18:09:44 <stickster> mizmo: Hrm. I'm not sure Max ever got down there -- but Greg DeKoenigsberg, then an ex-FPL, was down there two years ago I believe
18:09:48 <mizmo> ah okay
18:09:55 * ctyler reminds stickster to hand over the codes to the fedora orbital laser
18:09:58 <smooge> We need an FPL on each continent
18:10:08 <stickster> smooge: And then let them duke it out a la RISK?
18:10:10 <mizmo> FISL is in Brazil?
18:10:24 <stickster> mizmo: Correct -- FUDCon LATAM is in Santiago Chile, and then FISL is in Porto Alegre, Brazil.
18:10:51 <smooge> Ah man that sounds nice
18:11:10 <stickster> AIUI, Jared actually has spent time in Santiago before, so that should be a really effective trip for him as FPL
18:11:31 <stickster> He speaks some Spanish (and I think a little Portuguese though he's really humble about it)
18:12:12 <stickster> I think it's a great opportunity to start things off showing our LATAM friends that they are an important part of our global community
18:12:28 <smooge> oh that would be very nice
18:12:42 <smooge> maybe we can see a growth area for us there
18:12:43 <stickster> Just as Max did in EMEA, in part by living there for a time to help their growing Ambassador community
18:13:45 <stickster> Any other questions about Jared?
18:14:09 <smooge> Not without seeing him
18:14:14 <smooge> I have no picture to place him
18:14:26 <stickster> smooge: I think he has a website, you can google him
18:15:01 <mizmo> are you gonna take some PR photos of him while in RDU?
18:15:11 <ctyler> smooge: picture on his fp wiki profile: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jsmith
18:15:18 <stickster> mizmo: Yes, we are going to get a head shot while we're there, although we probably won't have time for a video shoot
18:15:40 * stickster has meet & greets planned with a bunch of different departments after orientation ends on Tuesday midday
18:15:42 <smooge> ah ok so he is not the singer or the poet
18:15:51 <stickster> Then we have to get him on a plane on Tuesday evening to Chile :-)
18:16:00 <stickster> It's a whirlwind start for the new FPL!
18:16:02 <smooge> ok thanks. got it
18:16:25 <stickster> smooge: Is he at jaredsmith.net? I can't recall the URL, feel free to post
18:17:00 <rdieter> yes, http://www.jaredsmith.net/
18:17:04 <stickster> Thanks!
18:17:08 <smooge> Yes it is http://www.jaredsmith.net/ I see the ssh post he had 2 weeks ago
18:17:16 <stickster> Great.
18:17:26 <stickster> Let's move on so we can get to community Q&A by :30
18:18:14 <stickster> Just as a reminder, Jared's got limited email access until next week, but you'll see him around a bit more then, and a lot more once his LATAM travel ends.
18:18:22 <stickster> #topic fedoracommunity.org
18:18:43 <stickster> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2010-June/008583.html
18:19:31 <stickster> That was a discussion where one of our contributors was wondering about having a fedoracommunity.org subdomain point to a fedoraproject.org/wiki page. I explained there why I thought that might not be the best idea, as opposed to a truly community-run site, which is why we set up fc.o in the first place.
18:19:46 * jds2001 is horribly lagged o na wwan connection
18:19:55 <stickster> I hadn't seen any Board members disagree with what I wrote there
18:20:11 <rdieter> stickster: I think I would agree with your initial assessment
18:20:17 <smooge> Yes I would prefer it to be there. What can we do to make fedoracommunity better?
18:20:36 <stickster> smooge: First things first
18:21:26 <stickster> Do Board members believe that fedoracommunity.org subdomains should refrain from pointing to fedoraproject.org, so that we can clearly preserve the community's ability to produce their own content on those sites
18:21:27 <stickster> ?
18:22:05 <mizmo> how much overlap is between community-content vs fedora-policied content?
18:22:08 <stickster> Let's get a show of hands, then we can discuss topics of making fc.o better on FAB
18:22:18 <stickster> mizmo: None, as fedoracommunity.org was originally conceived
18:22:23 <rdieter> if pointing = redirects, I agree.  Linking to stuff on fedoraproject.org should ok.
18:22:32 <mizmo> i dont see why pointing to the wiki is an issue
18:22:40 <stickster> It's the redirect that's the issue.
18:22:43 <stickster> rdieter: Right.
18:22:52 <mizmo> doesn't pointing mean redirect?
18:23:02 <smooge> mizmo, no HREF versus Redirect
18:23:08 <stickster> smooge: +1
18:23:16 <mizmo> why is one okay and not the other?
18:23:29 <stickster> The intent of the fedoracommunity.org domain is to make it clear that the Fedora Project and Red Hat are not responsible for the content there.
18:23:41 <stickster> That way a local community can feature content that might not be acceptable on, say, the Fedora wiki.
18:23:49 <stickster> Laws are different around the world.
18:23:56 <spot> yeah, i don't think blind redirects is the appropriate use of that domain
18:24:04 <mizmo> that doesn't make sense though. if they aren't planning to feature content that's a problem, then why do they have to build their own infrastructure?
18:24:11 <smooge> if it is on fedora's wiki we need to care about State Department rules
18:24:20 <mizmo> but you're assuming they will break them
18:24:41 <stickster> mizmo: They don't have to, but in that case we can provide them space on the wiki, without needing a special *.fc.o domain.
18:24:48 <smooge> no I am assuming I have to make checks that would make people uncomfortable in my checking
18:25:17 <mizmo> stickster, but there's value to having a vanity domain
18:25:19 <ctyler> mizmo: Consider a situation where we set up a redirect, but in the future the national community does set up a site. Do we change the redirect? That could break many established URLs.
18:25:21 <stickster> Any local community is free to use the wiki that way, or help localize our existing websites on *.fp.o without needing any special permission from anyone
18:25:55 <mizmo> yeh but then they wouldn't get a nice easily advertised domain
18:26:15 <mizmo> it's a lot nicer to say sealand.fedoracomunity.org than fedoraproject.org/wiki/sealand
18:26:17 <stickster> mizmo: In that case, there's really nothing preventing us from setting up XX.fedoraproject.org.
18:26:24 <mizmo> ah okay
18:26:31 <stickster> If it's on fp.o, it's subject to the normal guidelines
18:26:50 <stickster> Whereas if it's on fc.o, local communities become their own lookouts
18:26:53 <mizmo> well *if* (and i am making an assumption) a local group would like the domain for vanity reasons and use the wiki, *.fedoraproject.org maybe shuold be suggested to them
18:27:13 <mizmo> but that makes it harder too for users who are from country x who just want to find their home
18:27:19 <mizmo> then theres two patterns to try
18:28:04 <stickster> mizmo: That's true, but it was a compromise so that we could disconnect the "officialness" of the domain from the local community's ability to just build content and support their region.
18:28:22 <mizmo> stickster, can fedoracommunity.org point to fedoraproject.org domains? eg maybe have a per country listing on the main index?
18:28:34 <stickster> mizmo: There's a big write up on the wiki about this, which a previous Board worked on: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Local_community_domains
18:28:57 <stickster> mizmo: I think we need a good http://fedoracommunity.org front page
18:29:48 <mizmo> yeh, i worry that this page is geared towards the community administrators and not the users in each locale
18:29:58 <mizmo> having a nice index on fedoracommunity.org would be quite nice
18:30:03 <stickster> mizmo: It definitely is
18:30:14 <stickster> We should probably take that up with the Websites team and see if someone wants to create something, a mockup or a template
18:30:16 <mizmo> ill bring these points up on the list, sorry to take up so much time
18:30:27 <stickster> mizmo: No, great discussion
18:30:32 <stickster> Let's talk about this on the a-b list
18:30:41 <mizmo> with that information in mind, i agree a redirect might be problematic, but an html link + auto refresh might be problematic too no?
18:30:41 <stickster> Because there's definitely more we could do
18:30:50 <mizmo> but ill put it on the list :)
18:30:54 <stickster> brilliant
18:31:17 <stickster> #action mizmo will bring up some alternatives and additional solutions on the advisory-board list
18:31:59 <stickster> OK, moving on then.
18:32:09 <stickster> We're at :32 but I have to briefly cover one more item
18:32:14 <stickster> #topic Planet wiki page
18:32:24 <stickster> I made some changes here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Planet
18:32:43 <stickster> We had a few pages that were separately covering related information about the Planet
18:32:47 <stickster> So I pulled them together into one page
18:33:08 <stickster> And I adjusted redirects as needed on the wiki, so that if someone is looking for information on the planet, they will invariably end up on this page.
18:33:22 <stickster> It puts the purpose and guidelines first, and then explains how to add a feed to the Planet
18:33:28 * walters waits for wiki to load
18:33:37 * jds2001 is somewhat back
18:33:47 <walters> ah, must've hit a bad frontend, reload was instant
18:33:49 <jds2001> and has been told sprint SUCKS in this building by a coworker :)
18:34:02 <spot> s/in this building//
18:34:07 <stickster> Now the page also recommends using a tag or category for Fedora so contributors have a choice on their blog whether they want a blog post to go to the planet or not. That can be very unclear for beginning bloggers.
18:34:51 <stickster> I don't think there's anything the needed here regarding the page, other than to invite the community to look at it and edit as with all things wiki.
18:34:59 <stickster> s/the needed/needed/
18:35:09 <spot> looks sensible to me.
18:35:14 <mizmo> +1
18:35:23 * spot will need to find a new home for his near-nude copyright infringements though.
18:35:30 <stickster> None of the other stuff in the page, like the appropriateness guidelines, has changed from previous content.
18:35:45 <stickster> (I didn't sneak in and add a "no ponies!" clause) :-)
18:36:03 <walters> good thing, there would've been a revolt
18:36:13 <mizmo> it still would be nice
18:36:18 <mizmo> to do some of the things suggested in the thread
18:36:23 * jds2001 wants ponie!
18:36:24 <mizmo> like having a usable contact for every planet poster
18:36:37 <mizmo> in case of a problem or if someone wants to contact them (reasonably many folks have commenting turned off on their blogs)
18:36:45 <jds2001> we do, theyall have fas accounts
18:36:58 <stickster> mizmo: Oh, if I missed something -- feel free to add it on the page. I suspect in a lot of cases people don't know what is desirable
18:37:11 <stickster> So we can start by laying it out more clearly in the instructions
18:37:27 <mizmo> jds2001, fas account isn't determinable by planet
18:37:40 <mizmo> stickster, its not something addressable by the page i think, we'd have to change the planet template
18:37:47 <jds2001> mizmo: yeah, you have to dig through the generated config file
18:38:10 <jds2001> which is shall we call it less than ideal.
18:38:26 <stickster> jds2001: Is this something where you and mizmo could put your heads together, and come up with a way to make it easier to find contact info for Planet feeds?
18:38:37 <ctyler> There was talk about having the config-file-generator add fas IDs (and possibly links), that would be an easy solution.
18:38:59 <jds2001> stickster: sure thing!
18:38:59 <rdieter> ctyler: +1
18:39:07 <stickster> #info Might be able to have config-file generator add FAS IDs and/or links to make it easier to contact Planet posters when needed
18:39:21 <mizmo> i can talk to seth and add an infrastructure ticket to get it added
18:39:31 <stickster> mizmo: Excellent
18:39:46 <mizmo> #action mizmo talk to seth re FAS ids on planet and file infraticket if needed
18:40:06 <stickster> I think zodbot picks that up from non-chairs, right?
18:40:12 * stickster can never remember how that works.
18:40:24 <smooge> not usually
18:40:28 <stickster> OK
18:40:29 <mizmo> copy me!
18:40:34 <stickster> #action mizmo talk to seth re FAS ids on planet and file infraticket if needed
18:40:42 <stickster> I should just chair everyone, sorry, will do next time
18:40:45 <smooge> stickster is a copy cat stickster is a copy cat
18:40:50 <stickster> :-P  :-D
18:41:14 <stickster> #action jds2001 to help skvidal with tech side as needed
18:41:14 <stickster> OK, let's move on so we can get to the community stuff
18:41:17 <stickster> Any objections?
18:41:21 <mizmo> +1
18:41:26 <rdieter> move on++
18:41:33 <stickster> OK
18:41:36 <jds2001> +1 to mizmo's +1 :)
18:41:42 <stickster> :-)
18:41:42 <stickster> #topic Community Q & A
18:43:35 <stickster> vwbusguy: Go ahead
18:44:49 <stickster> OK, he may be teaching, but in short:
18:44:58 <stickster> Does the board recommend Fedora contributors intently avoid offering support to citizens of embargoed countries?
18:45:19 <spot> the board isn't the appropriate entity to make such recommendations.
18:45:22 <stickster> This comes out of a question that I got from IRC contributors (I think Spot got the question separately also)
18:45:29 <spot> Fedora Legal would be.
18:45:40 <smooge> spot++
18:46:00 <stickster> It's really a legal question, and not a Board question -- the Board doesn't give legal advice as far as I know
18:46:07 <jds2001> im in no posistion to give legal advice on behalf on fedora, and i suspect that the majority of the board is in the same boat.
18:46:54 <jds2001> or on behalf of anyone else, for that matter :)
18:46:58 <smooge> dealing with 'embargoed' countries is one of those we would be messing with US laws but may be messing with some EU law that says a contributer has to help (say for hunan rights or something). I think the board should ask for guidance before anything else
18:47:00 * spot happens to know that Fedora Legal is willing to address any such questions, either privately or on the public mailing lists.
18:47:25 <smooge> spot, how can people reach fedora legal on that
18:47:27 <stickster> smooge: +1
18:47:39 <jds2001> legal@lists.fp.o
18:47:40 <stickster> We have a list for legal matters -- legal@lists.fp.o
18:47:51 <spot> either in public on the legal@lists.fedoraproject.org mailing list or in private at legal@fedoraproject.org
18:48:11 <stickster> #info Question: Does the board recommend Fedora contributors intently avoid offering support to citizens of embargoed countries?
18:48:40 <stickster> #agreed The Board can't give legal advice, but we have both an email contact and a list for legal matters
18:48:50 <stickster> #info legal@fedoraproject.org <-- email contact
18:49:02 <stickster> #info legal@lists.fedoraproject.org <-- publiclist contact
18:49:13 * ctyler would like to know if the answer differs for US- and non-US-based contributors
18:50:13 <spot> ctyler: feel free to ask Fedora Legal. ;)
18:50:16 <stickster> ctyler: Almost certainly it does, as laws differ between nations.
18:50:17 <stickster> Let's move on
18:51:00 <vwbusguy> stickster, I'm sorry I had to go afk for a second
18:51:28 <vwbusguy> Does the board recommend Fedora contributors intently avoid offering support to citizens of embargoed countries?
18:51:29 <stickster> vwbusguy: No problem -- we answered above, in short: the Board can't give legal advice, but we can definitely talk about this on the legal list
18:52:18 <stickster> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/legal <-- legal list signup, forgot that link earlier
18:52:40 <vwbusguy> does the board have any recommendations in the meantime, before Fedora-legal addresses this?
18:53:08 <smooge> patience would be mine
18:53:47 <spot> I hear good things about Lev Grossman's "The Magicians"
18:54:32 <stickster> vwbusguy: Nothing further at this time, no
18:54:38 <vwbusguy> heh, I mean specifically in regards to communication with an individual who addresses themself as being from an embargoed country, say to our @fedoraproject.org email address?
18:54:39 <vwbusguy> ok
18:54:59 <mizmo> i would think in that situation the thing to do would be to contact fedora legal
18:55:23 <mizmo> we do have at least one other community issue that was brought up
18:55:24 <mizmo> and 5 minutes
18:55:53 <stickster> mizmo: Yes, let's move on
18:55:58 <stickster> Thanks for the question vwbusguy
18:56:59 <stickster> Originally we started these IRC meetings as a way to provide more transparency to what the Board does, beyond our meeting minutes, and more contact with the community at large.
18:57:37 <stickster> inode0: Do you have suggestions for how we could improve these meetings? Do you think they would function better if they were Q & A only?
18:59:29 * spot drops a pin
19:00:01 <mizmo> so inode0 may be pulled away right now, ill summarize from his conversatoin in the questions channel
19:00:14 <mizmo> he is concerned that community question periods in these meetings normally get < half of the meeting time
19:00:27 <mizmo> he suggested maybe having the community questions upfront would ensure the community would have their input
19:00:39 <mizmo> EvilBob also made a remark he felt like they were being ignored in the questions channel and 'relegated'
19:00:46 * spot has no problem with flipping the order.
19:00:52 <smooge> me either
19:00:54 <mizmo> rdieter brought up a good point on that though
19:01:01 <mizmo> in that we'll be waiting for questoins up front
19:01:10 <mizmo> so i had suggested we do agenda item > question > agenda item > question
19:01:12 <stickster> There was an even better alternative suggested, which is to interleave the order
19:01:19 <mizmo> so during each agenda item people can queue up questions
19:01:19 <smooge> well the other is make the meeting longer
19:01:22 * jds2001 reminds folks that the board memebers are available for Q&A at any time, not just twice a month :)
19:01:35 <spot> jds2001: +1
19:01:39 <mizmo> another idea is like when we have designated secretaries, have one for these irc meetings and their job is to monitor the questions channel and queue up the questions
19:01:49 <mizmo> so it runs more smoothly
19:01:50 <stickster> jds2001: +1, We're all on IRC pretty constantly
19:01:58 <smooge> that is true jds2001 but it does not get the public viewing that people feel is needed at times
19:02:23 <stickster> mizmo: Usually I've tried to do that, but I have to admit it's tougher when there's an agenda to run too. I've tried to keep our agendas to <= 30 minutes
19:02:40 <mizmo> having the impetus of the meeting to bring up questions is convenient though and everyone can see the questoin at once, it's valuable
19:02:43 <stickster> but it's hard to foresee when there will be questions coming up from the Board itself
19:02:55 <mizmo> stickster, you shldnt have to do both at once
19:03:09 <rdieter> can we try mixing in questions as they arise next time, and see how it works?
19:03:12 <smooge> mizmo, actually after this meeting... I don't think he will ahve to :)
19:03:17 <mizmo> lol
19:03:21 <stickster> smooge: mizmo: :-D
19:03:35 <stickster> Well, in any case, I want things to work well for the community and also for the next FPL
19:03:52 <stickster> I am all for switching the format so that we can more effectively communicate
19:04:05 <spot> stickster: agreed
19:04:17 <jds_droid> I would not object to running these like a fesco meeting
19:04:28 <jds_droid> One channel
19:04:41 <stickster> Using the ! type method of putting a hand up?
19:05:07 <jds_droid> Fesco isn't that formal
19:05:22 <stickster> jds_droid: I suspect that could get really messy with some of the topics we discuss here, though.
19:05:41 <stickster> People are very passionate (and that's good), which makes meetings in that fashion break down quickly
19:05:42 <jds_droid> Generallyh folks behave themselves :)
19:06:24 <jds_droid> I can see where that could happen
19:06:53 <jds_droid> But cross that bridge when we get there
19:07:42 <jds_droid> In an appropriate way given the circumstance aat the time
19:07:47 <smooge> I would like to try a topic/q&a/topic/q&a and then move to openfloor at end. Meetings may need to be longer
19:07:48 <rdieter> ok, 2 baby-step things I'd propose as formalizing suggestions made so far:  1.  have a designated secretary for irc meetings, to monitor questions channel , 2.  allow questions during or in between formal agenda topics
19:07:57 <mizmo> from the questions channel
19:07:58 <mizmo> <stickster> I think an automated queue manager would be a great way to handle it, if we could teach zodbot to do it for instance
19:08:08 <stickster> rdieter: Should we simply extend our secretarial duty from normal meetings, and make IRC part of that rotation?
19:08:16 <mizmo> there was a suggestion to teach zodbot to manage a queue so folks in the questions channel could use a command like #question to have a question queued
19:08:29 <rdieter> stickster: maybe, though heck, it could be anyone really.  doesn't have to be a board member
19:08:31 <stickster> rdieter: Board Member A does sec'y duty for call in week 1, Board Member B does sec'y duty in IRC for week 2, etc.
19:08:48 <ctyler> Maybe secretarial until zodbot can take over.
19:09:05 <rdieter> but if we want to start with a board member doing it, that's fine.  as long as it gets done
19:09:37 <mizmo> that board member shuld be identified ahead of time or in the questions channel topic so folks can highlight it
19:09:45 <stickster> OK, let's start by just making this part of the secretarial duty then.
19:09:50 <mizmo> like if im doing it, someone says mizmo i have a question then i know to look at the questions tab
19:09:55 <stickster> That's already listed on our Board meetings category page, anyway
19:10:05 <stickster> So it's easy to find and put in the announcement on the mailing list and zodbot
19:10:08 <mizmo> i dont think we should take away voicing either
19:10:18 <stickster> We can just adjust the schedule appropriately
19:10:37 <jds_droid> Mizmo what do you mean
19:10:42 <mizmo> there is some discussion in questions about queuing people or queuing questions, both rdieter and i agree queuing people is better
19:10:53 <stickster> I like having people come in and ask their own quesetions
19:10:54 <stickster> *questions
19:11:02 <rdieter> yup
19:11:03 <mizmo> jds_droid, rather than queuing questions and the secretary asking the question in here, the secretary should voice the *person* to ask it themselves in here
19:11:03 <caillon> have we ever tried just an open discussion, btw?  (ie no voice/ops required to speak)
19:11:20 <caillon> might be worth trying that once to see how that works...
19:11:35 <stickster> caillon: I think we did that on a far-back Board
19:11:40 <caillon> if it turns out that it's too noisy, we could revert back to the current way of doing things
19:11:54 <jds_droid> Mizmo: yeah, that way folks can do followup
19:12:13 <caillon> stickster, hm, IIRC i was on the first board IRC mtg and I don't remember that.
19:12:37 <stickster> caillon: As mizmo can attest, my memory's crummy.
19:12:51 <jds_droid> I agree that trying caillon's idea is good
19:12:57 <stickster> Kids are a great excuse for that ;-)
19:13:07 <mizmo> they leave behind cookie crumbs
19:13:16 <mizmo> i have another idea
19:13:18 <mizmo> on the questions
19:13:22 <mizmo> what if people could submit them ahead of time
19:13:28 <mizmo> then theres no needfor interleaeving
19:13:39 * caillon needs to head out now, but would be interested in following up on f-a-b
19:13:39 <stickster> mizmo: Sure, that's what advisory-board is for in a way.
19:13:50 <stickster> q.v. Our agenda today.
19:14:00 <mizmo> kk
19:14:02 <stickster> caillon: thanks
19:14:18 <mizmo> inode0 suggests opening up the questoins channel 15 min ahead of time
19:14:22 <smooge> mizmo, I thought the mailing list and #irc channel were places for people to ask questions openly
19:14:40 <mizmo> the concern here is community members being able to meet their obligations if the meeting runs over
19:14:44 <stickster> mizmo: What we have to be careful to avoid, is making all activity and discussion hinge on an hour or so in IRC, rather than using our async opportunities on the mailing list.
19:14:52 <mizmo> yeh
19:15:01 <jds_droid> The questions channel is 24/7
19:15:13 <mizmo> mailing list isnt always the best format to discuss a concern though
19:15:18 <mizmo> and irc can be hard if not everybodys around
19:15:20 <stickster> mizmo: It's funny you mention going over -- because that's why, when we have agendas, we put them first
19:15:23 <mizmo> #advisory-board might be a good place
19:15:42 <mizmo> it sounds like inode0 is suggesting community folks priority is questions over agenda topics
19:15:45 <smooge> personally I try to go by the rule: If its not on a mailing list, its not been documented/asked. IRC is fine for some discussions but the threading here really sucks at times. [Plus I type slow]
19:15:46 <mizmo> which can be read about in the logs after
19:15:49 <mizmo> and aren't interactive for them
19:16:28 <jds_droid> Yeah. There is no place to genrally find the board on irc
19:16:33 <mizmo> "I have asked questions on f-a-b - they don't generate board discussion ... I fell lucky if two board members respond to anything I post there"
19:16:43 <smooge> #fedora-advisory-board?
19:16:44 <stickster> mizmo: I think what I'm trying to say (badly) is that we probably all have the same concerns in mind, and we're not sure whether we're meeting all of them currently, so a change is welcome
19:16:49 <jds_droid> We all know where each ogther hang out
19:16:50 <mizmo> maybe there should be some keyword or signal to get a question on the list queued up for agenda
19:17:06 <stickster> mizmo: Like "Can we add this to the next IRC agenda?"?
19:17:11 <mizmo> yep
19:17:15 * stickster opts for plain language
19:17:30 <mizmo> how does stuff get selected
19:17:39 <jds_droid> But there is no canonical location for the board on irc
19:17:59 <stickster> Didn't someone start #fedora-advisory-board?
19:18:24 <jds_droid> Dunno, I didn't know if so.
19:19:00 <stickster> #info There is a #fedora-advisory-board IRC channel where Board members can generally camp
19:19:41 <stickster> OK, so where does this leave us with this topic?
19:19:44 <mizmo> yes #fedora-advisory-board
19:19:58 <stickster> We have no automated sec'y right now.
19:20:09 <mizmo> we have a number of suggestions, we need to make a decision on which to do
19:20:15 <stickster> Shall we have a Board member do rotating moderation duty starting next IRC meeting?
19:20:19 <mizmo> - automated secretary or manual secretary for #questions channel
19:20:24 <mizmo> - no #wuestions channel, no moderation
19:20:33 <mizmo> - open up #questions channel 15 minutes earlier
19:20:43 <mizmo> - board members hang out in #fedora-board-meeting for questions when they can
19:20:49 <mizmo> er #fedora-advisory-board
19:20:53 <spot> feel free to keep going, but i have to bail
19:20:56 <stickster> Why don't we go for broke in the next meeting, just have everyone here and no special voicing?
19:21:04 <mizmo> - you can have an item added to the agenda by specifying you'd like so on the fab list
19:21:07 <stickster> And then we can dial back as needed if that doesn't work, a little bit at a time until we find the right balance?
19:21:13 <jds_droid> +1
19:21:15 <mizmo> +1
19:21:19 <ctyler> +1
19:21:21 <spot> +1
19:21:24 * mizmo really doesn't like folks feeling shut out in the separate channel
19:21:28 <rdieter> +1
19:21:30 <smooge> +1
19:21:39 <stickster> mizmo: I don't think any of us do :-\
19:22:01 <mizmo> how about the meeting order
19:22:17 <stickster> #agreed Next IRC meeting will be wide-open in #fedora-board-meeting, no special voicing. If that doesn't work, we will dial back a little at a time to find a good balance of order vs. openness
19:22:43 <stickster> mizmo: We can agree to save agendas for our alternating meetings on the phone, as far as I'm concerned
19:22:55 <mizmo> okay cool, so it'll be all community?
19:22:57 <mizmo> for irc?
19:23:02 <stickster> mizmo: Sure, we've done it before
19:23:05 <mizmo> yay
19:23:12 <stickster> About half the time we come in with no agenda.
19:23:50 <stickster> OK, so show of hands: Shall we put Q & A first in future IRC meetings for the time being?
19:24:06 <mizmo> +1
19:24:10 <rdieter> yes, +1
19:24:16 * stickster thinks this is probably a helpful exercise for each new Board to find its preferred balance
19:24:35 <jds_droid> +1
19:25:13 <jds_droid> Urgent issues should be on the list anyhow
19:25:51 * stickster sees only 3 people voting
19:25:55 <ctyler> +1
19:26:04 <jds_droid> Anyhow, I gotta run
19:26:17 <stickster> Thanks jds_droid, that's the last thing we'll put up for hands here.
19:26:21 <stickster> smooge: ?
19:26:24 <stickster> walters: ?
19:27:23 <smooge> one sec
19:27:25 <smooge> +1
19:27:29 <stickster> heh, OK
19:27:42 <stickster> #agreed Put Q & A first in future IRC meetings
19:28:03 <stickster> And with that, let's call it a wrap here. I'll get the notes to the list.
19:28:12 <stickster> Thanks everyone for attending, and for the great questions and input.
19:28:23 <stickster> #endmeeting