19:00:08 <mchua> #startmeeting
19:00:11 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Apr 27 19:00:08 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:00:12 <mchua> #chair jzb
19:00:12 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:00:14 <zodbot> Current chairs: jzb mchua
19:00:16 <mchua> #chair nirik
19:00:16 <zodbot> Current chairs: jzb mchua nirik
19:00:35 * rbergeron waves
19:01:18 <jzb> hi rbergeron !
19:01:30 <jzb> looks like we've even lured FunkyPenguin over
19:01:39 <mchua> By way of introduction - this is a Fedora Classroom (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Classroom) session with jzb (Joe "Zonker" Brockmeier), who'll be talking about how to make life awesome for journalists.
19:01:51 <jzb> thanks!
19:01:55 <jzb> OK, we're ready to start?
19:01:57 <mchua> We've got an hour, so - jzb, take it away.
19:02:06 <jzb> Hi and thanks for joining me today to talk about how to make Fedora awesome for journalists.
19:02:17 <jzb> My super-quick intro: I'm a full-time freelance writer and spend most of that time covering Linux and open source. A big chunk of what I do is reviews and writing about open source projects.
19:02:29 <jzb> I've been writing for more than 10 years professionally, and also spent two years working with the openSUSE Project as a community manager, and have also been involved with Ohio LinuxFest and GNOME doing work on PR and other miscellaneous stuff.
19:02:40 <jzb> In short, I've spent a lot of time in and around FOSS projects like Fedora as well as covering them.
19:02:52 <jzb> Naturally, this session isn't really about making *Fedora awesome so much as telling the Fedora story effectively and showing off your existing awesome so that journalists get a chance to see the features and such that you're hoping they'll focus on.
19:03:08 <jzb> Fedora is already awesome :-)
19:03:19 <jzb> It's a matter of making sure that journalists can see it.
19:03:27 <oenone> whoo.. i just sync'd my nokia e51 with evolution :D
19:03:29 <jzb> I'm hoping that at least part of the class can be Q&A so that it's not just me typing into an IRC window and wondering if folks are getting any value out of the session...
19:03:38 <oenone> oops, sorry, wrong channel
19:03:40 <jzb> or even awake. :-) IRC is great for some things, but audience feedback is not one of them. :-)
19:03:50 <makfinsky> jzb: +1
19:03:56 <jzb> So if you have a question at any point... just speak up
19:04:05 <jzb> So - quick summary of what I hope that contributors will take away from this:
19:04:12 <jzb> 1) a better understanding of what journalists do and how FOSS advocates can work with them effectively,
19:04:22 <jzb> 2) better tools to support journalists and reviewers, and
19:04:31 <jzb> 3) how to work with writers and journalists through the entire process including after publication. This includes corrections and supporting the writers who have written about the project.
19:04:37 <jzb> Any questions so far?
19:04:59 * rbergeron says no :)
19:05:05 <jzb> Any topics that I haven't mentioned yet that folks would like me to cover?
19:05:07 <igndenok> +1
19:05:21 <jzb> OK
19:05:24 <jzb> So: What are journalists looking for? It varies a lot - some writers like Ryan Paul are knowledgeable enough and follow Fedora ~full time so they need very little hand holding.
19:05:24 <oenone> do you mean classic journalism?
19:05:39 <jzb> oenone, I mean people writing about technology
19:05:47 <jzb> technically this is not always journalism per se
19:06:03 <oenone> okay
19:06:14 <jzb> Others are going to need more detail to see 1) what has changed between releases, 2) how to enable features, 3) see what to focus on.
19:06:22 <jzb> Fedora is pretty good about this. Actually, Fedora is one of the best distros when it comes to providing this information.
19:06:38 <jzb> The talking points and feature pages are great - providing that journalists can find them.
19:06:57 <jzb> What I haven't noticed so far is outgoing efforts to get in touch with individual journalists
19:07:05 <jzb> or a press list similar to KDE's
19:07:09 <jzb> those are good things on both counts
19:07:31 <jzb> Having one or more folks in the community that has developed personal relationships with journalists is a very good idea.
19:07:48 <jzb> who here is working on press efforts?
19:07:56 * rbergeron raises hand
19:08:04 <rbergeron> in a vague sort of way :)
19:08:09 * mchua raises hand, sort of
19:08:11 <rbergeron> wonderer is doing a lot of work with the press kit.
19:08:21 * gbraad_mobile raises hand, sort of
19:08:25 <jzb> rbergeron, what happens with the press kit once it's finished?
19:08:29 <jroysdon> Not directly, but indirectly more as a FOSS-advocate in corporate/government IT shops
19:08:34 * rbergeron is jack of all trades with marketing.. master of none
19:08:51 <rbergeron> jzb: in the past - our "press kit" has consisted of a sheet of paper with a USB key.
19:08:57 <mchua> rbergeron: you stole my descript :)
19:09:02 <EvilBob> jzb: it sits in a box on the shelf for everyone to point at.
19:09:21 <rbergeron> the sheet of paper is literally a "this is a usb key, plz install" and "btw, here are some things you should see about fedora."
19:09:39 <jzb> rbergeron, how many of those are sent out?
19:09:43 <rbergeron> so the question has moved to a - do we need to have an official press kit - will this be getting more effective notice from press-journalist-types
19:10:03 * rbergeron looks around for stickster - i have no clue, offhand.
19:10:06 <jzb> OK
19:10:24 <rbergeron> it's really been more of a red hat / fedora thing - we're really trying to move some of that stuff out and make it far more community-oriented and developed.
19:10:39 <jzb> If there's any sort of CMS that Fedora uses or some private page on the wiki, it might be a good thing to keep a list of who's been contacted and how
19:10:45 <jzb> and do follow-ups
19:10:46 <EvilBob> jzb: I do believe the number sent out is near 0(ZERO)
19:11:05 <rbergeron> so we're doing things twofold in a sense - trying to figure out how to do marketing in a community way, and also work with press people and figure out the best strategy forthat
19:11:09 <jzb> EvilBob, that's... less effective than >0
19:11:17 <jzb> OK
19:11:33 <rbergeron> i think there is a list of people who get them, and i believe that list is not very long.
19:11:46 <rbergeron> anyway. :)
19:11:50 <jzb> rbergeron, for the most part, I think the USB key is unnecessary
19:12:00 <jzb> but the contacts are essential
19:12:07 * rbergeron nods
19:12:19 <jzb> You basically have two or three groups of journalists
19:12:34 <jzb> the first group are the usual suspects
19:12:45 <jzb> Ryan Paul, myself, SJVN, LWN,
19:12:51 <jzb> that you probably don't need to pitch very hard
19:12:56 <jzb> to get coverage with
19:13:08 <jzb> it's the next group that you really need to worry about
19:13:21 <jzb> the folks that write for publications that cover Linux but not as a primary focus
19:13:37 <jzb> and may or may not cover Fedora depending on whether they think it's newsworthy
19:13:46 <jzb> for LWN pretty much every Fedora release is newsworthy
19:13:58 <jzb> but not necessarily for ZDNet or CNet
19:14:10 <jzb> (any questions or am I saying anything yet that's not blindingly obvious?)
19:14:23 * rbergeron is copiously taking notes despite everything being logged :)
19:14:33 <jroysdon> Makes sense, please proceed.
19:14:34 <EvilBob> So far you are mentioning online news sources
19:14:37 <makfinsky> The larger publications are probably more likely to focus on Enterprise Linux.
19:14:43 <makfinsky> Right?
19:14:48 <jzb> makfinsky, correct, but...
19:15:06 <jzb> If approached correctly they should be looking at the community distros
19:15:10 <jzb> as precursors to Enterprise Linux
19:15:26 <jzb> I'd pitch to enterprise folks as "this is what Enterprise Linux is going to look like in 3 years"
19:15:29 <makfinsky> So, how do we approach correctly? With hand pinching nose?
19:15:34 <makfinsky> ;)
19:15:35 <EvilBob> Is print as important as in the past?
19:15:42 <rbergeron> ie: these new features are what are going to be the differentiators in the big enterprise distros in the next few years
19:15:45 <rbergeron> ?
19:15:52 <jzb> EvilBob, no.
19:15:53 <jzb> :-0
19:15:55 <jzb> er, :-)
19:15:56 <makfinsky> rbergeron: Yes, that makes sense to me.
19:15:59 <rbergeron> this is why these things are important?
19:16:01 <jzb> EvilBob, there's not that much print left
19:16:04 <jroysdon> for instance, I think using/testing F12 prior to RHEL6 is a very good idea (as RHEL6 will be very much based on many versions in F12, but not entirely), but how would you sell that to the press?
19:16:05 <BryenY> oops, sorry I was late folks.
19:16:11 <jzb> rbergeron, yes - for example
19:16:20 <makfinsky> At least that's why I've gotten as involved in Fedora - mos of my customers are enterprise customers.
19:16:22 <jzb> rbergeron, think about the btrfs rollback
19:16:22 <EvilBob> jzb: I still wait eagerly for my LJ to show up every month
19:16:29 <makfinsky> I want to know what they will be able to do and how.
19:16:31 <jzb> EvilBob, do you already know about Fedora?
19:16:45 <EvilBob> ;^)
19:17:04 <jzb> EvilBob, then consider yourself reached. ;-) I mean, it's still important to maintain relationships with existing users
19:17:20 <jzb> EvilBob, but if the idea is to inform new users, LJ.. probably isn't going to get it done.
19:17:25 <EvilBob> jzb: But... I don't know about what opensuse is doing, and LJ can give me that
19:17:26 <jzb> few LJ readers are unaware of Fedora
19:17:41 <jzb> EvilBob, fair point.
19:17:56 <jzb> EvilBob, but they're in the "in the know" group.
19:17:59 <EvilBob> did not intend to derail the train
19:18:11 <rbergeron> jzb: doesn't the lead time from writing to print to delivery in the magazine world
19:18:30 <rbergeron> make it more ripe for things like - talking about features more in depth - than talking about "up next in the F13 release"
19:18:33 <makfinsky> Sounds like there are two components we're talking about here - general awareness of existence and awareness of features.
19:18:34 <rbergeron> ?
19:18:41 <threethirty> jzb: is there somewhere we should "waste our time" im thinking WSJ NYT etc.
19:18:52 <threethirty> not waste*
19:19:13 <jzb> rbergeron, not necessarily - it depends a lot on page count
19:19:34 <jzb> rbergeron, the lead time is much shorter than it used to be, too.
19:19:40 <rbergeron> innnteresting
19:19:42 <jzb> It's still much longer than online publishing
19:19:59 <jzb> but if I have a word count of 1,200 - 2,000 word
19:20:05 <jzb> it's not easy to get in depth
19:20:09 <rbergeron> right
19:20:19 <jzb> rbergeron, page counts have shrunk a lot
19:20:31 <jzb> makfinsky, yes
19:21:02 <jzb> makfinsky, for some publications the best you can hope for is 400 words and a link to Fedora's site
19:21:11 <jzb> for publications like, say, eWeek
19:21:22 <jzb> you might get 800 - 1000 words
19:21:31 <jzb> if you have 5 features that really stand out
19:21:42 <jzb> you want to make sure that's reflected in communications with the journalist.
19:21:49 <jzb> I love the Fedora feature pages by the way
19:21:59 <jzb> but - and I say this with love and respect for the work that's already gone in
19:22:16 <jzb> a slight bit of explaining a little more about why those features are important wouldn't hurt
19:22:31 <jzb> and maybe organizing by importance rather than alphabetically
19:22:36 <rbergeron> about each individual feature - or "this group of features as a whole"
19:22:57 <jzb> rbergeron, that too - some of the individual features are really part of a larger whole
19:23:10 <jzb> rbergeron, for example, I grouped all the Python improvements
19:23:28 <rbergeron> jzb - you're talking about the big list of features, not necessarily when we pare them down into things like the grouped talking poitns
19:23:31 <rbergeron> points
19:23:33 <rbergeron> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F13_talking_points
19:23:49 <rbergeron> grouped by desktop users, admins, developers
19:24:02 <rbergeron> picking some of the more high-profile things to talk about
19:24:37 <rbergeron> jzb: what i'm saying is... do you think we should be prioritizing the regular feature list as well? would that be more useful for you?
19:24:47 <rbergeron> this list http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/FeatureList
19:24:52 <jzb> rbergeron, yes
19:25:02 <gbraad_mobile> also to users
19:25:22 <rbergeron> i mean - and maybe someone else could step in and hold my hand here - i think a lot of that list is more useful to engineering, etc to keep track of status.
19:25:31 <rbergeron> maybe a more press-friendly version of that page
19:25:39 <rbergeron> without paring it down into Talking Points?
19:25:59 <jzb> rbergeron, correct - ideally the same page could be used for users + press
19:26:09 <jzb> rbergeron, more of a "new feature guide" / "review guide"
19:26:37 <jzb> so, somebody like lwnjake might know where to begin with a review
19:26:44 <jzb> but if you aren't a full-time Linux user
19:26:49 <rbergeron> it's all greek :)
19:27:05 <jzb> it's hard to stare at a GNOME desktop from F12 to F13 and figure out what's changed or is important
19:27:12 <rbergeron> or possibly all english, if you're living in greece. :)
19:27:18 <jzb> :-)
19:27:29 <lwnjake> my ears are burning
19:27:36 <rbergeron> we're talking about you :)
19:27:36 <jzb> there are also a lot of "under the hood" improvements that aren't obvious
19:27:50 * rbergeron nods
19:28:07 <makfinsky> Yes, how do we highlight those?
19:28:11 <jzb> one thing that I find missing in the talking points
19:28:17 <jzb> is a bit of history
19:28:20 <makfinsky> That's a problem I have all the time, with computers in general.
19:28:30 <jzb> who did the work on the feature, and where does it come from?
19:28:37 * rbergeron nods
19:28:53 <rbergeron> we try to cover some of that in feature profiles - where we take some of the features, individually, and do stories on them
19:28:55 <jzb> Maybe if Fedora makes a practice with this
19:28:59 <rbergeron> interview the coders
19:29:01 <jzb> other distros will follow
19:29:01 <EvilBob> another problem is in the structure of the wiki I think, non-features still being listed as a feature years later even after being of no interest to users in the first place. example https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBuildId
19:29:03 <rbergeron> etc.
19:29:08 <jzb> rbergeron, are those linked from the talking points?
19:29:30 <mchua> jzb: Nope - usually just the other way around.
19:29:34 <mchua> Hm. We should... do that.
19:29:34 <rbergeron> jzb: yargh, offhand, i'm not sure.  we may link to them as they get developed - we just had our second one out today.
19:29:43 <EvilBob> there are many things in the https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/Feature* name space that are, WOW...
19:29:51 <jzb> rbergeron, I saw that - tell Kara she's doing well :-)
19:30:15 <rbergeron> jzb: kara does the press blogs - but we get actual community marketing people to do the feature profiles you read on the fp.o wiki.
19:30:27 <rbergeron> for example - the python one today that kara wrote about - went to mel's interview.
19:30:49 <rbergeron> next week's hardware enablements piece is from interviews i've done.
19:30:50 <rbergeron> etc.
19:30:51 <jzb> rbergeron, right - I just meant she's reaching out to the right folks :-)
19:30:58 <rbergeron> right right :)
19:31:02 <jzb> rbergeron, Red Hat hasn't always been good at that :-)
19:31:07 <jzb> but that's another story :-)
19:31:21 <jzb> the other thing that's crucial is spokespeople
19:31:25 <jzb> and here's a sticky one
19:31:33 <jzb> who serves as a spokesperson for Fedora?
19:31:42 <makfinsky> jzb: Ambassadors...?
19:31:42 <rbergeron> that would mostly be stickster.
19:31:47 <stickster> rbergeron: Actually...
19:31:52 <rbergeron> you mean when $pressguy comes and says
19:31:56 <rbergeron> "we need a quote for this story?"
19:32:08 <jzb> rbergeron, or hand-holding for a review, yeah
19:32:18 <jzb> at the very top of the page
19:32:18 <stickster> Well, yeah, it's mostly stickster then :-)
19:32:23 <jzb> have a contact
19:32:26 <makfinsky> FPL.
19:32:34 <jzb> "For press inquiries"
19:32:39 <jzb> contact stickster
19:32:43 <jzb> or whomever
19:32:48 <stickster> press@fp.o is the right contact addy
19:32:53 <rbergeron> well - i think it's contact kara - who directs to stickster
19:33:12 <jzb> stickster, rbergeron right - but the important thing is - how easy is it for me as press to find it?
19:33:14 <makfinsky> I think jzb's point is that it should be a person, a real name.
19:33:20 <stickster> rbergeron: See above ^^.  That address comes to me, Kara, and a couple other people for redundancy's sake
19:33:24 <jzb> makfinsky, it's OK if it's just press@
19:33:24 * rbergeron nods
19:33:28 <makfinsky> Ok.
19:33:33 <jzb> makfinsky, it just needs to be easily found
19:33:41 <rbergeron> so - we've been talking about having press.fp.o
19:33:42 <makfinsky> Gotcha.
19:33:42 <jzb> and responded to quickly
19:33:50 <rbergeron> as a portal with necessary press information
19:33:53 * stickster googles "fedora press" and immediately finds a couple pages we could treat with a better template. Thanks jzb
19:33:57 <rbergeron> making things easy to find for journalists
19:34:03 <rbergeron> stickster: easyfix!
19:34:08 <jzb> rbergeron, that brings me to my next point :-)
19:34:10 <rbergeron> stickster: or moderately-easy-fix :)
19:34:14 <jzb> understanding press :-)
19:34:35 <jzb> Now more than ever
19:34:45 <jzb> most of the people who will write about Fedora are *not SME's
19:34:53 <jzb> (Subject Matter Experts)
19:35:01 <jzb> they will also be on really tight deadlines
19:35:17 <jzb> and often have very little time to do in-depth reporting or reviewing
19:35:30 <rbergeron> so they need answers and need them now and need to figure out a way to find someone and get the information they need
19:35:31 <jzb> all of the materials I am suggesting
19:35:41 <rbergeron> in concise, easy spot
19:35:41 <jzb> rbergeron, yep
19:35:57 <jzb> are to help ensure they 1) know what to look at and 2) get the facts right
19:36:04 <jzb> the other side of that is
19:36:11 <jzb> they're not always going to get it right
19:36:23 <jzb> any more than Fedora is going to ship an entirely bug-free releaase
19:36:24 <jzb> release
19:36:39 * rbergeron nods
19:36:46 <jzb> it's vitally important that when corrections are made
19:36:55 <jzb> they're made gently and with understanding
19:37:18 <stickster> jzb: Like this one! Great point about bug-free releases -- no one has those. :-)
19:37:22 <stickster> How'd I do?
19:37:29 <ke4qqq> so stupid question from the peanut gallery - how are corrections best made - direct email, comments, something else entirely??
19:37:40 <jzb> ke4qqq, depends on the correction + publication
19:37:56 <rbergeron> "which gloves do i wear"
19:37:56 <ke4qqq> can you offer some general guidelines
19:37:58 <EvilBob> ke4qqq: not with flaming blog posts
19:38:08 <jzb> ke4qqq, but generally corrections are best made by direct email if possible
19:38:22 <jzb> but comments are fine so long as the correction is polite
19:38:40 <makfinsky> Allow the author to post the update/correction, rather than calling them out in public.
19:38:48 <jzb> so "hey, I notice you said that Fedora ships $foo under $license, actually it switched licenses with this last release."
19:38:50 <jzb> is OK
19:39:17 <jzb> questioning their ethics or professional abilities for fact-checking are not :-)
19:39:32 <stickster> I always try to end with "Thank you for writing about ____" as well, because we should also remember this person is taking the time to put the Fedora name in the spotlight. Even when it's not flattering there's still arguably some value in that, especially if we have the opportunity to correct or build a better relationship with that person as a result.
19:39:39 <drecute> sorry, guys i was late. been reading comments for the past 10
19:39:46 <jzb> I would also refrain from the "but what about $bar" posts.
19:39:52 <jzb> unless strictly relevant
19:40:15 <jzb> for instance
19:40:30 <jzb> if somebody reviews Ubuntu 10.04 and says "hey, great, Ubuntu has feature Y"
19:40:46 <jzb> it's probably not helpful to the cause to say "Yeah, but Fedora had that in F6"
19:40:54 <jzb> not that anyone would ever do that :-)
19:41:02 <jzb> stickster, +1
19:41:18 <jzb> that brings me to another point
19:41:28 <jzb> if somebody writes something about Fedora
19:41:36 <jzb> driving traffic to the site is always welcome
19:41:37 <EvilBob> jzb: the rub there comes when it is a New feature to Linux everywhere that Ubuntu is gracing the world with
19:41:49 <jzb> + helps ensure there will be follow-ups
19:41:50 <EvilBob> that Fedora has had for 6 releases
19:41:54 <rbergeron> jzb: makes people want to write about fedora again
19:42:12 <jzb> Editors + publishers look closely at traffic and somewhat closely at comments
19:42:26 <jzb> if I write a story for some publication + it gets 2x traffic
19:42:39 <jzb> and 50 "yay! I loved this thanks for writing about Fedora" comments?
19:42:45 <jzb> the editor is usually going to want more
19:42:51 <jzb> rbergeron, right
19:42:56 <rbergeron> jzb: where is the best place to draw the line between... journalists and glorified bloggers
19:43:02 <rbergeron> in terms of who should we be reaching out to
19:43:04 <jzb> rbergeron, traffic :-)
19:43:15 <jzb> figure out who the influencers are
19:43:43 <jzb> stickster, are there any mechanisms to see which reviews drive traffic to the site or downloads?
19:44:06 <stickster> jzb: Yes, through referrer URLs in our http logs I would hazard a guess
19:44:11 <dberkholz> isn't that traffic driving really artificial though? you're just reinforcing the fanboys instead of showing that you reached anyone new
19:44:40 <jzb> dberkholz, when I say traffic driving, I'm talking about through newsletters, social media, etc.
19:44:50 <jzb> dberkholz, and to some extent, probably
19:45:18 <jzb> dberkholz, but what I'm really talking about is helping do some of the reaching new users with the content, if that makes sense
19:45:42 <jzb> if there's a good review of Fedora + I post it on Twitter, Identi.ca + FB
19:45:52 <jzb> some of the loyal fan base will see it + look
19:46:01 <jzb> but also a bunch of my followers / friends who aren't familiar with it.
19:46:11 <jzb> I assume most of you have friends who are not Linux users yet?
19:46:25 <makfinsky> jzb: Only one or two, :P
19:46:49 <rbergeron> jzb: most aren't, but they all know what it is :)
19:46:50 <makfinsky> Oh, I mean - are actual Linux users!
19:46:53 <EvilBob> we have friends?
19:47:01 <makfinsky> rbergeron: +1
19:47:03 <jzb> makfinsky, my FB account has about 50 high school friends who aren't usually exposed to Linux
19:47:06 <bochecha> EvilBob, I was wondering the same :)
19:47:10 <ke4qqq> EvilBob: +1 :)
19:47:17 <jzb> so if they read about Fedora + pass on to one user...
19:47:31 <rbergeron> but they all see my #fedora this and #foss htat - even if it's just impressions
19:47:32 <BryenY> If I may interject, even if its fanboy driven traffic, its still good, because you want your fan base to read this stuff as well because it helps them to better communicate to their own followers the benefits of the product they love by reading how others are saying things.
19:47:49 <rbergeron> at some point - someone might say linux - and they might say, oh, yeah, Fedora.
19:47:55 <jzb> rbergeron, think of it as awareness advertising
19:48:06 * rbergeron nods
19:48:11 <jzb> you don't want someone to have not heard of Fedora when they're finally ready to try Linux :-)
19:48:18 <rbergeron> exactly
19:48:19 <jzb> or they may even pass it on to someone else
19:48:40 <jzb> "hey, my daughter was talking about Linux..." "Yeah? My son linked to this thing on FB about Fedora. She should try that."
19:49:26 <stickster> Also there is value in repetition.
19:49:27 <jzb> We're getting near the end of the session
19:49:31 <jzb> any other questions?
19:49:38 <stickster> Saw this earlier in that regard: http://darkmattermatters.com/2010/04/27/brand-positioning-tip-10-repetition-is-the-secret-ingredient/
19:49:39 <jzb> I think the broad points have been made + received
19:49:49 <rbergeron> ah, cdgrams :)
19:50:03 <jzb> basically -> make contact with journalists + try to build relationships w/ them
19:50:19 <jzb> -> provide the highlights + resources they need
19:50:26 <jzb> -> answer their questions
19:50:34 * inode0 has been distracted by work but to what extent should Fedora cultivate its own journalists?
19:50:35 <jzb> -> Correct gently if necessary
19:50:48 <jzb> inode0, how do you mean?
19:51:13 <inode0> have contributors who are also writers
19:51:19 <makfinsky> I've been told I should write article for LJ and such. Should fedora encourage contributors to do the same?
19:51:23 <makfinsky> inode0: +1
19:51:33 <inode0> does that cross a line of objectivity?
19:51:36 <rbergeron> mafinsky: yes yes yes on magazines.
19:51:46 <rbergeron> the virt guys have been doing awesome magazine articles about their features
19:51:50 <rbergeron> what they do, how to use them
19:52:02 <makfinsky> rbergeron: I saw that in FWN.
19:52:03 <rbergeron> just as i'd love to see them all at conferences talking about their features
19:52:07 * mchua wonders - a lot of this seems geared towards getting users. how do we make the same strategies grow our contributor base, too?
19:52:28 <jzb> inode0, at the risk of encouraging competition
19:52:32 <makfinsky> mchua: I think contributors are a subset of the user base, yes?
19:52:48 <jzb> inode0, makfinsky I would encourage contributors to write for anybody they can
19:52:57 <jzb> it's always good to have SMEs contribute articles
19:53:05 <jzb> I know lwnjake  is always looking for good articles :-)
19:53:17 <lwnjake> yup, jake@lwn.net
19:53:27 <jzb> rbergeron, +1
19:53:29 <mchua> makfinsky: Usually, indeed. But how do we help journalists point towards "yay, contribute to Fedora!" opportunies as well as "yay, use Fedora!" ones?
19:53:54 <mchua> I think it's one of the unique things about open source, really - that you can get involved, it's not just cool stuff that's coming out, it's cool stuff *you* can help with.
19:54:00 <jzb> mchua, they need to be users first
19:54:03 <mchua> and that the next time something's announced, you could point to it and say "hey, I did that!"
19:54:07 * mchua nods
19:54:08 <jzb> mchua, I am picking up what you're laying down
19:54:12 * mchua just doesn't want it to stop there ;)
19:54:19 <inode0> that seems related to the target audience of the publication
19:54:20 <makfinsky> mchua: That sounds like an article in itself - contibutors, ambassadors, etc.
19:54:21 <jzb> mchua, but contributions are *generally
19:54:30 <jzb> mchua, a bit beyond most of the publications
19:54:40 <rbergeron> i think - at least if i were a journalist - i'd see the "pointing to how to contribute" as an endorsement of the product
19:54:40 <jzb> mchua, now, some publications are geared for that
19:54:43 <jzb> LWN, Linux.com, etc.
19:54:46 <rbergeron> which is something you'd probably want to shy away from
19:54:50 <quaid> "A place you can make a difference"?
19:54:52 <jzb> rbergeron, nah
19:54:57 <rbergeron> really?
19:54:58 <jzb> rbergeron, If you wrote about the Red Cross
19:55:09 <jzb> you could mention "here's how to help" without crossing the line
19:55:12 <jzb> to endorsing
19:55:18 <jzb> it's a volunteer driven organization
19:55:20 <rbergeron> this is true
19:55:25 <jzb> so mentioning how to step up is kosher
19:55:38 <rbergeron> do you ever do it? :)
19:55:43 <EvilBob> users are the low hanging fruit
19:55:44 <rbergeron> if so, why - or why not :)
19:55:46 <quaid> but recognize that ppl don't always see FOSS projects in the same light, so an explanatory point is worth it.
19:55:46 <jzb> rbergeron, me? Yes
19:55:50 <jzb> if it seems appropriate
19:55:55 <quaid> "Since these projects are volunteer driven, you can help by ..."
19:55:57 <jzb> I will write posts about how to contribute to projects
19:56:06 <jzb> or tag on "here's how to help"
19:56:18 <jzb> last think I'd like to mention
19:56:24 <jzb> don't be stuck with the release cycle
19:56:34 <jzb> releases are only one opportunity to reach out
19:56:41 <jzb> but look for other news to reach out with
19:56:53 <jzb> otherwise it's only press time for Fedora 2x a year
19:56:59 <jzb> and less often for other projects
19:57:24 * rbergeron would like to have more than 4 months a year of articles / things to highlight / content we're creating and showing to press, fo sho
19:57:32 <jzb> I hope this was at least a bit helpful. Any last questions?
19:58:14 <gbinns> yes
19:58:15 <makfinsky> Any good suggestions for technical copy editors? I can write, not well.
19:58:39 <gbinns> jzb: i think thirtythree asked a question, maybe i missed the answer? jzb: is there somewhere we should not "waste our time" im thinking WSJ NYT etc.
19:58:40 <jzb> makfinsky, shaunmc
19:58:53 <jzb> makfinsky, other folks - try checking with FLOSS Manuals and other projects
19:59:05 * inode0 thinks this was very nice of jzb and thanks him a lot for running the session
19:59:11 <makfinsky> jzb: Thnx!
19:59:11 <rbergeron> yes, thank you!
19:59:15 <jzb> gbinns, ah - yes
19:59:17 <ke4qqq> makfinsky: also you could try docs - they have some mean grammarians
19:59:21 <jzb> gbinns, take the long shots
19:59:24 <stickster> jzb: Thank you for holding this class. It's great to see someone with a background in both sides of the lawn teaching what they know.
19:59:26 <psankar> jzb, it is helpful. Thanks.  Any book suggestions you have for writing-better ?
19:59:28 <jzb> gbinns, don't waste much time
19:59:37 <jzb> gbinns, but take 'em
19:59:40 <threethirty> thanks jzb
19:59:45 <psankar> jzb, that is, apart from read-a-lot
19:59:54 <jzb> psankar, Sun's Read Me 1st
20:00:00 <jzb> for technical writing
20:00:05 <gbinns> jzb: awesome
20:00:08 <jzb> thanks everybody - this was fun!
20:00:12 * mchua cheers
20:00:15 <psankar> thanks jzb . /me googles
20:00:15 <gbinns> jzb: thanks for being here today
20:00:19 <N3LRX> Great class today Joe, Thank you.
20:00:26 <dberkholz> thx jzb
20:00:29 * gbraad_mobile cheers
20:00:31 <psankar> Thanks to Fedora for this nice opportunity
20:00:33 <dberkholz> always something new to learn..
20:00:46 * mchua waits a minute for the applause and cheering before wrapping up today's logs :)
20:00:57 * inode0 starts a wave
20:01:01 * goeran joins hte applause
20:01:01 <jzb> :-)
20:01:02 * gbinns applauds
20:01:09 * bertux applauds too
20:01:13 <gbinns> threethirty: sorry, i meant threethirty, not thirtythree :)
20:01:14 <EvilBob> Thanks Joe
20:01:25 * saigkill applauds
20:01:36 <threethirty> gbinns: no wuckers
20:02:03 <mchua> We'll be talking about this classroom session and what we want to do about in Fedora Marketing during the Marketing meeting.
20:02:11 <mchua> Which is in #fedora-meeting-1, starting... now, in fact. ;)
20:02:13 <mchua> </shameless plug!>
20:02:35 <BryenY> jzb,   Much of what you have discussed is something many projects could benefit from.   I hope more projects are receptive to you giving talks like this in their areas and broadening all of our collective understanding of working with folks like you
20:02:54 * mchua will leave the logger running for another 5m to catch afterdiscussion, and see where we are then.
20:03:00 <inode0> people from all projects were welcome to attend this one :)
20:03:03 <jzb> BryenY, thanks - I'd like to see Fedora + openSUSE doing some of these together
20:03:12 <jzb> inode0, and all of them, I hope :-)
20:03:19 <inode0> yes
20:03:54 <shaunm> jzb: were you pointing makfinsky at me?
20:04:27 <makfinsky> shaunm: I think he did.
20:04:30 <jzb> shaunm, no, shaunmc
20:04:31 <BryenY> jzb,   Absolutely.  There was an attempt to get fedora and openSUSE together on these classrooms, but somehow communication got dropped way back when.    Who coordinates Fedora-classroom now?
20:04:35 <jzb> I think that's his username
20:04:42 <makfinsky> Ah, wrong shaunm*. :)
20:05:39 <shaunm> oh, ok. odd that there's somebody with such a close username to mine
20:05:56 <BryenY> << unique nick  :-D
20:07:17 <jzb> OK, off on some deadlines - will blog about this later + feel free to ping me w/questions
20:07:20 <jzb> jzb@zonker.net
20:07:49 <gbraad_mobile> will do, thanks again
20:08:04 <jzb> thanks much everybody!
20:08:42 <bochecha> BryenY, I think nirik does
20:08:42 <Southern_Gentlem> BryenY, actually any fedora member can edit the wiki for the classroom
20:09:03 <Southern_Gentlem> the classroom was niriks idea
20:09:50 <Southern_Gentlem> BryenY, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Classroom
20:09:51 <mchua> #endmeeting