19:00:49 #startmeeting 19:00:49 Meeting started Tue Jun 29 19:00:49 2010 UTC. The chair is mizmo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:00:49 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 19:00:58 all right, roll call! 19:01:02 * mizmo Máirín Duffy 19:01:05 * rbergeron 19:01:06 * msourada is present 19:01:08 * sdziallas is here in case anybody has questions 'bout the design suite (plz ping if so, might be jetting in the meantime.) 19:01:12 +3 here 19:01:18 bam 19:01:24 * Schendje is here 19:01:25 * nicubunu here 19:01:36 cool we gots a good turnout 19:01:40 okay so the first topic 19:01:43 * mbenitez hello all! 19:01:44 Hi all :) 19:01:47 #topic Fedora 14 Artwork Schedule 19:01:57 * mizmo coughs in the bots general direction 19:02:04 #changetopic Fedora 14 Artwork Schedule 19:02:08 okay w/e 19:02:17 bot doesn't have ops - it'll still capture in the meeting log though :) 19:02:23 this is our schedule 19:02:24 http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-14/f-14-design-tasks.html 19:02:33 so I think right now our two main concerns 19:02:52 #1 settling on a solid conceptual design. we don't have much time 19:03:01 the deadline is July 6th which is next Tuesday I believe, so in one week 19:03:10 at our meeting next week we'll have to decide together which concept we're going with 19:03:25 this means, if you've proposed a concept, please polish it up as much as you can for presentation at next week's meeting 19:03:49 we should be choosing both on the strength of the idea & its relation to fedora as well as the quality of or the potential quality of the rendering 19:03:55 any questions on the F14 conceptual design? 19:04:29 we still have about 24 days between the decision and alpha wallpapers readiness, so there's still some time for polishing *after* the decision 19:04:33 yeh 19:04:47 but if you polish your ideas a little bit more before the decision it betters your chances :) 19:04:52 yeh 19:04:54 okay 19:04:58 so our #2 concern with the F14 schedule 19:05:02 is supplemental wallpapers 19:05:20 we need to be both picking out kickass openly-licesned wallpapers (CC-BY or CC-BY-SA are best! no NC or ND) 19:05:30 and recruiting other folks in the Fedora community to submit wallpapers 19:05:37 we've got a script here 19:05:38 http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=fedora-wiki.git;a=blob_plain;f=upload.py;hb=bafaab7f5b1c75c21c97ebcec3cceef3ef06129f 19:05:52 you can copy/paste it into a file, call it upload.py, and run it like this, "python upload.py" 19:06:09 put together a CSV file (instructions here: http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=fedora-wiki.git;a=commit;h=bafaab7f5b1c75c21c97ebcec3cceef3ef06129f) 19:06:17 do you have guidelines for the types of supplemental wallpapers? 19:06:19 and it'll upload multiple photos at one time to the wiki for you, it's a huge time saver 19:06:38 kylebaker, they need to be appropriate for a wallpaper, and they need to be licensed under a fedora-friendly license 19:06:40 kylebaker, let me grab the list 19:06:57 kylebaker: i think we want a variety of images 19:06:58 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Licensing#Good_Licenses_3 19:07:03 are we only going to use photos as alternatives 19:07:04 #link http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=fedora-wiki.git;a=blob_plain;f=upload.py;hb=bafaab7f5b1c75c21c97ebcec3cceef3ef06129f 19:07:09 #link http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=fedora-wiki.git;a=commit;h=bafaab7f5b1c75c21c97ebcec3cceef3ef06129f 19:07:10 to please a large audience 19:07:28 kylebaker: not only photos, anything 19:07:29 kylebaker, yeh they are going to be alternatives. so if you right click the desktop background, and do 'change background' - these are gonna be the wallpapers that show up there 19:07:35 it can be photos or anything really 19:07:48 oh ok 19:07:48 ok 19:07:54 they should look good, be usable and free 19:08:00 if they need to be cropped that's okay. try to pick stuff that's pretty hi-res though, minimum probably 1600x1200 19:08:10 this is the webpage that we have for collecting them 19:08:15 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F14_Artwork_Supplemental_Wallpapers_Submissions 19:08:22 right 19:08:25 if you want me to upload them for you 19:08:39 just send the following to the design team list (use the topic 'supplemental wallpaper submissions') 19:08:40 Location of file,Name of file,Author,Author email,Description,License,Category 19:09:00 okay 19:09:06 any more questions on the supplemental wallpapers? 19:09:25 any more questions on the F14 artwork schedule? 19:09:33 just one 19:09:37 the alpha wallpaper... 19:09:43 * tatica o/ 19:09:45 is that "alpha" as in, alpha version of *that* wallpaper 19:09:54 Schendje, no it's alpha as in it'll be shipped with F14 alpha 19:10:05 ah ok 19:10:07 it's a good chance for us to get exposure with alpha users and get their feedback 19:10:10 sup tatica! 19:10:12 so it needs to be finished already? 19:10:17 but is also alpha in the sense the final one will be evolved from it 19:10:21 getting to the meeting, sry the delay 19:10:26 nicubunu: ah ok 19:10:42 so, finished as possible, just not final yet 19:11:10 Schendje, yeh like nicubunu said it's basically a draft to start with on the way to the final 19:11:16 ok cool 19:11:17 sure, we may change the graphic completely if the feedback is negative (we did so in the past) 19:11:26 yep hehe (see F12) 19:11:30 but ideally don't 19:11:36 aiight 19:11:39 so it's trac time 19:11:39 yup 19:11:42 #topic Trac time 19:11:57 * tatica has to take some photos to the supplemental wallpapers :D 19:12:03 okay we have two tickets that we've been focusing on; Schendje has been working both! (awesome!) 19:12:05 tatica, great!! 19:12:12 #link https://fedorahosted.org/design-team/ticket/136 19:12:21 background for the fedora twitter account 19:12:22 ah yes, the twitter background 19:12:26 pretty self-explanatory 19:12:32 what's the status on that one? are ya close? 19:12:38 is it going to be used for identi.ca too? 19:12:38 i'm... done i think :) 19:12:43 yess 19:12:45 i posted it on the marketing mailing list 19:12:47 oh okay great the ticket is closed sweet 19:12:49 yay! 19:12:50 okay 19:12:51 they liked it and it got approved 19:12:53 yup 19:12:56 i believe it is in use now 19:12:59 its now in use on both twitter and identi.ca 19:13:02 it's nice and simple :) 19:13:04 kickin' 19:13:07 :) great job Schendje 19:13:08 colors were off at first, but it's okay now :) 19:13:14 good work Schendje ! 19:13:15 here's the other ticket 19:13:18 https://fedorahosted.org/design-team/ticket/55 19:13:21 this is the hackergotchi ribbon one 19:13:31 i think you folks worked out 120px wide on the list recently 19:13:39 so this ticket is still open? 19:13:43 yep 19:13:52 yup, pierros' call, he amintains now hackergotchis 19:13:57 maintains 19:14:04 i'll post to the mailing list with some more mock-ups after this meeting 19:14:07 okay cool. do you need any help or advice from us on it Schendje or are you good to go? 19:14:19 aiight, we'll post some feedback to your mocks to the list when you send them? 19:14:28 yep, i'll also post the sources and all 19:14:35 so please, run with it if you want :) 19:14:47 but if these get released 19:14:55 could we also do a call to update other hackergotchis? 19:15:00 the /heads/ page is a mess :( 19:15:23 do we want folks with missing or badly-formatted hackergotchis to get them cleaned up? 19:15:28 so sort of, get some attention for the hackergotchi service etc 19:15:36 hello everyone, sorry for being late 19:15:47 mizmo: +1 19:15:47 hi finalzone :) 19:15:55 hey good to see you finalzone 19:16:01 we're discussing tickets now 19:16:02 mizmo: +1 from me as well 19:16:12 so maybe we should make a new ticket for cleaning up hackergotchis 19:16:12 good ^_^ 19:16:37 yeah something like that 19:16:40 well 19:16:51 next on the agenda is finding a ticket to work on for the next week 19:17:04 someone from the team should contact people, tell them their hackergotchis are not ideal 19:17:10 and offer help 19:17:34 i'll learn to do hackergotchis soon 19:17:40 if we made that a new ticket, would someone want to take it on? 19:17:44 so i wont leave nicu with a mountain of hackergotchi tickets ;) 19:17:45 that must be 1:1, as we need to get into contact, ask for photos and so on 19:17:47 is there a rule for the size of hackergotchis? 19:18:00 some of them on planet are way too big 19:18:11 nope, pierros asked for the hackergotchi queue and i gladly passed it to him 19:18:14 yeah, giant charmanders are awesome and all, but they look a bit off :D 19:18:18 the ticket would be (1) to identify hackergotchis with issues (2) file a ticket for each hackergotchi that needs to be made and ask the hackergotchi owner to upload a photo to their ticket 19:18:37 finalzone: new size is 120x120 19:18:39 does anyone want to volunteer? 19:19:20 ... 19:19:27 is a daunting task, i didn't do it even when i maintained the queue :( 19:19:41 hmm 19:19:46 what if it was just to identify the problematic ones 19:19:46 hmmm 19:19:52 and post a list to the design team mailing list? 19:19:54 its just that i dont know people :( 19:19:56 * tatica has only one ticket right now :/ 19:19:57 make it a smaller task? 19:20:04 yeah that's not a problem 19:20:06 alternatively 19:20:11 there's another way we could approach it 19:20:17 it's a good way to get to know people :) 19:20:20 I can fix hackergotchis 19:20:25 and that's to highlight the best hackergotchis that follow the hackergotchi guidelines (though we don't have any formal ones) 19:20:25 is not a hard task 19:20:26 that's the daunting part, you have to get in touch with many unknown people 19:20:26 rbergeron: haha yep true :D 19:20:26 do a blog post 19:20:38 and advertise the hackergotchi queue and have those folks self-service their hackergotchis 19:20:39 THEN 19:20:58 we could also email the folks with hackergotchi issues and send them a link to the blog post :) 19:21:23 yeah that sounds good to me :) 19:21:42 aiight so let me break this down 19:21:53 ticket #1 - identify problematic hackergotchis 19:22:09 ticket #2 - identify really good hackergotchis, write a blog post about why they are good, and advertise the hackegotchi queue 19:22:24 ticket #3 - email the folks with problematic hackergotchis and point them to the blog post from ticket #2 19:22:27 so! 19:22:46 does anyone want to take on either ticket #1 or ticket #2 to report back on next week? (doesn't have to be totally done by next week, just some progress!) 19:23:04 i'll do that 19:23:14 before that though... 19:23:19 i want to have the labels finished 19:23:31 yeh i think Schendje is doing a lot here :) can someone else volunteer? 19:23:36 i can explain why some are good, but don't want to select which one are good, since many are made by me 19:24:01 nicubunu, if i pick a few good ones would you feel more comfortable using them? (you can say i picked them) 19:24:07 i dont even know which ones you did and didn't do 19:24:20 mizmo: ok 19:24:24 .fas t2hot 19:24:24 t2hot: twohot 'Onyeibo Oku' 19:24:35 nicubunu, cool so i'll give you ticket #2 and ill send you the list of good ones to use 19:24:38 anyway, the most important part is to start from a good photo 19:25:05 yep! maybe you can write some tips on what photos work best 19:25:12 so folks don't open up tickets with hard to use photos 19:25:15 okay cool 19:25:20 wait, one question 19:25:30 so i'll create those three tickets, and assign the #2 to nicubunu 19:25:32 sure whats up Schendje 19:25:34 so i'll be making that template for the hackergotchi banners 19:25:46 and we want it so people can open it up, change the color and the text, etc 19:25:47 we'll check back in next week on where we stand with the hackergotchi tickets 19:25:49 in a very very easy way 19:25:53 yeh absolutely 19:25:59 when im finished 19:26:06 should i do a blog post or put it on the wiki? 19:26:16 (a tutorial, i mean) 19:26:23 Schendje, that would be *awesome* 19:26:38 Schendje, i think putting it on the wiki, then doing a blog post to point it out is a good approach, 19:26:42 the wiki is more permanent / more findable i think 19:27:01 aiight cool 19:27:01 okay, that's all! :) 19:27:05 any other ticket topics? 19:27:07 Schendje +1 19:27:08 or shall we move on! 19:27:24 ..... 19:27:27 aiight we're moving on! 19:27:33 #topic Design Team Bi-Weekly Bounty 19:27:40 so congrats to Schendje for being our first bi weekly bounty ninja :) 19:27:49 * Schendje makes ninja sounds 19:27:53 although its not quite bi-weekly since i was too caught up in a conference last week to do another one lol 19:27:54 grats 19:27:55 lol 19:28:07 congrats 19:28:13 * nicubunu wonders if now we search for a pirate 19:28:15 i did a post to show off Schendje's work http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/06/28/first-fedora-design-ninja-identified/ 19:28:15 :) 19:28:30 i think for each one, we should do the call for help, then a 'show off' post to show what the ninja (or pirate) did 19:28:30 yeah, tri-weekly, whatever :D 19:28:40 does anyone have any ideas for the next bounty? 19:29:01 * rbergeron notes that marketing + other teams have been looking for a very nice OO impress template for fedora people to utilize. 19:29:05 rbergeron had posted a slide presentation that could be re-used at events, maybe dolling that up could be a good next one 19:29:11 lol great minds think alike :) 19:29:16 mizmo + rbergeron = WIN 19:29:30 does anybody have any issues with that being the next bounty? 19:29:37 .... 19:29:40 nope 19:29:43 so - the slide presentation that I did was something that got rolled on a wall with lots of other presentations - just to have something showing while people walked around 19:29:48 yeh 19:29:49 * nicubunu could have used himself such a template if it existed 19:29:50 wasn't necessarily a template, per se 19:29:55 i have one from fudcon berlin that i think wonderer_ put together 19:30:08 i think both have content that could be used as general 'show off fedora' slides, 19:30:16 but placed within a standard template 19:30:21 but something with the appropriate look + feel, maybe some of the 4 foundations icons, etc. so that people can use 19:30:29 or maybe the two should be separate projects 19:30:33 and INSTRUCTIONS TO PLEASE GOD USE THE MGOPENMODATAFONTS 19:30:39 lol 19:30:47 for the love of all that is holy, yum install mgopen-modata! 19:31:06 how about this 19:31:06 that if we don't move to another font... 19:31:07 mizmo: i think having the two somewhat separate would be sweet. marketing could help out a bit with the content for a springboard generic slide set 19:31:16 let's keep it simple then 19:31:24 we'll start our next ninja/pirate on doing just the basic template 19:31:24 * rbergeron just throwing ideas out 19:31:44 * rbergeron nods - that's the first step either way :0 19:31:48 and if they are hungry for more, then we can suggest they put together some general reusable blingy slides too 19:31:50 err, :) 19:31:55 the basic template is useful for a larger audience 19:31:56 sound good!!! 19:32:02 indeed. 19:32:05 nicubunu, I'm thinking along the lines: wouldn't it be better to fix mgopen-modata than finding another one? 19:32:14 nicubunu, yeh the font is another thing to discuss, the discussion on the list kind of died out 19:32:20 * rbergeron can fill up this bi-weekly bounty for the rest of the year with things from marketing ;D 19:32:31 just to note, then, if anybody has any other biweekly bounty ideas, at any time, please just send a note to the list 19:32:40 msourada: does any of us know even the basic things about font hinting? 19:32:53 it'll be good to have some in our back pocket 19:32:59 now on fonts - 19:33:02 #topic fedora official font 19:33:11 ah that topic 19:33:16 msourada, nicubunu i think finding another font with suitable glyphs is the easiest way hehe 19:33:16 * ianweller peeks in 19:33:23 i remember my troubles trying to fix the same problem with liberation 19:33:41 i could try to get red hat to hire someone to fix mgopen modata but it would likely be difficult and take a long time 19:33:43 and even the maintainer (kaio) didn't know to use hinting 19:33:47 i think its simplest to find something else 19:33:49 FreeSans fonts is way better 19:33:58 that Liberatio n 19:34:03 finalzone, freesans is a bit messed up though 19:34:03 nicubunu, I think noone, but since it's basically problem of adding accents to already existing glyphs it could be a good way to start learning these things. Font design is design as well... 19:34:06 i think its packaged incorrectly 19:34:19 the font itself is okay, but when i install it it kind of messes up fonts on my machine 19:34:32 msourada, i dont know if anyone has interest/time right now though :( 19:35:11 i think we had two font suggestions on the table 19:35:21 mizmo, I basically have interest but don't have time... font design isn't exactly easy thing... 19:35:41 i think quicksand was one 19:36:01 and Droid 19:36:15 mizmo, previews for the suggestions available anywhere? 19:36:22 oh yeh 19:36:28 is droid problematic for glyphs? 19:36:37 this is quicksand msourada http://www.fontsquirrel.com/fonts/Quicksand 19:36:40 i think it really jives with our brand 19:37:11 I think desktop people people believe droid have good coverage, I personally don't like it much though... (condensed look isn't "my thing") 19:37:23 i think droid is a great on-screen font 19:37:26 im not sure about for print though 19:37:34 the fedora font should definitely be good in print 19:37:41 I have a hard time with the Q 19:38:01 quicksand bold actually looks very similar to modata too 19:38:07 droid +1 19:38:11 kylebaker, do note it's meant to be for headlines, not really body text 19:38:21 can we have an alternative font for print 19:38:21 we could say, quicksand (or something else) for headlines, droid for body text 19:38:22 mizmo, I also think droid would not be good for print 19:38:30 one advantage of droid is that it's actively maintained 19:38:50 +1 Droid 19:38:59 kylebaker, for headlines or body? (or both?) 19:39:01 +1 to quicksand bold 19:39:11 I used droid for russian translate 19:39:13 mmmm droid 19:39:17 *drools* 19:39:21 msourada, for headlines? 19:39:24 mizmo, any screen 19:39:35 * rbergeron likes quicksand bold as well - although it'd be nice to see a sample of how things all look next to each other, in combo with fedora logo, etc. maybe? 19:39:46 kylebaker, we need something for headlines on screen + print, and something for body for screen + print 19:39:59 mizmo, yeah, for headlines 19:39:59 rbergeron, yeh totally 19:40:15 oh one thing on quicksand is, he has a permissive license but it's not free as in freedom so i need to get in touch with him on relicensing 19:40:28 quicksand bold looks good 19:40:30 I dont think there is enough contrast of style for the droid and quicksand combo 19:40:30 also quicksand and droid are both kind of off-the-cuff suggestions 19:40:31 there is also Comfortaa fonts but the license seems to be incompatible with fedora 19:40:44 finalzone, what's the license on it? do you have a sample link? 19:40:57 i like quicksand, although the sample looks like - in the word the letters are spaced far apart, although that may just be some sort of setting 19:41:01 http://www.fontsquirrel.com/fonts/Comfortaa 19:41:03 * rbergeron is not a designer and doesn't know anything so :) 19:41:06 if something is under a free as in beer license, usually if you send a nice email to the creator explaining fedora & freedom etc, they are very willing to reconsider their license 19:41:26 mizmo: issue is CC no derivative 19:41:31 finalzone, oh that might be workable though 19:41:37 we could talk to him on it 19:41:49 i assume comfortaa will be used for headers then? 19:41:57 maybe we should do a more through inspection of the fonts world before choosing one? Perhaps having some guidelines as to the general "feel" and target usage (print, onscreen, ...?) of the font would help 19:42:06 or *could* be, sorry 19:42:12 yeh absolutely 19:42:14 how about this 19:42:28 can folks each sniff around for free-ish licensed fonts 19:42:30 over the next week 19:42:41 and we'll share what we found either on-list or at next week's meeting? 19:42:48 mizmo: would you like to send a separate email to the list asking for that too? i can blog about it as well 19:42:48 mizmo: works for me 19:43:00 what would be ideal is if for whatever fonts you find, to throw together a quick comp with the logo like rbergeron suggested 19:43:01 plus, AFAIK, we don't have any suggested fonts for CJK glyphs... 19:43:04 yeh 19:43:10 I think we are going to have a hard time looking for an open sourced font that meets all of our requirements 19:43:14 although i think maybe one of the baemuk fonts might work 19:43:18 mizmo: selecting a new font is a blocker for the brand guidelines btw ;) 19:43:26 so hopefully that doesn't take more than a month 19:43:28 kylebaker, we dont have a choice though under no circumstances can we use a closed font 19:43:35 yeh 19:43:39 let's do research over this week 19:43:39 of course 19:43:41 and what i'll do 19:43:47 is i'll email the quicksand and comfortaa authors 19:43:52 we may have to use omre than one 19:43:53 and see if they are amenable to a fedora-compatible license 19:43:54 more 19:44:22 kylebaker, yeh although - since we have a lot of nondesigner folks using them, we run the risk of them being too hard to use if there are too many :( 19:44:26 that is why droid is a good option.... i think 19:44:33 it gives us a lot all in one font 19:44:37 aiight 19:44:40 any more comments on fonts? 19:44:42 right 19:44:47 is there a link to the droid font? 19:44:49 Hrm, we *should* probably use more than one -- mostly depending on the target usage (print or onscreen) 19:44:51 i want to get to rbergeron before she turns into a marketing meeting pumpkin 19:44:52 i didn't catch it 19:44:58 * rbergeron grins 19:44:59 lemme see 19:45:11 this is droid snas 19:45:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DroidSansSpecimen.svg 19:45:16 we could use droid serif for print 19:45:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Font-Sample-Droid-Serif_plainsvg.svg 19:45:29 http://www.droidfonts.com/ is the website for droid 19:45:36 aiight 19:45:43 another font similar to MgOpen Modata: Arista 2.0 19:45:54 cool noted finalzone! 19:46:02 mizmo, yeah, droid serif could probably work for print 19:46:07 aiight ill send out an email reminder about gathering fonts and start a thread for folks to post font suggestions on the design team list 19:46:08 * rbergeron wonders how much Droid is used by... those projects 19:46:34 aiight 19:46:42 time for rbergeron to talk about marketing our team :) 19:46:47 #topic marketing the design team 19:46:51 floor is yours rbergeron :) 19:46:56 okay! 19:47:02 #link http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/design-team/2010-June/002659.html 19:47:10 So - some of you may have read this email - 19:47:32 basically marketing is looking to be more pro-active content-wise - rather than having a glut of content at the end of each release. 19:48:00 one thing that might be helpful rbergeron (im not sure) 19:48:00 we'd like to do some highlighting of more "project" type stuff rather than "product" type stuff - ie, marketing the project, rather than just the distro itself. 19:48:08 i recently was interviewed by the frostbite media podcast on the design team 19:48:16 mizmo: yeah, i got a mail from quaid on that. 19:48:25 it might be an interesting thing to promote 19:48:37 they were pretty impressed we use fedora itself to produce the artwork in fedora 19:48:38 i haven't had a chance to look at it yet but it's on my plate for marketing meeting stuff to discuss. 19:48:49 i think marketing the project is a great idea 19:49:05 the way we do things openly & transparently has attracted a lot of folks to our project 19:49:17 but we don't tell that story so much online, more in-person at conferences 19:49:25 * rbergeron agrees 19:49:43 on that note... 19:49:56 if it wasnt for the design bounty i probably wouldve had a hard time joining 19:50:03 in any case - we'd like to do some highlighting of the stuff design has been doing - from the design suite, to how you guys work - both with tools and as far as scheduled items go. 19:50:06 without the help from mchua i'd have been lost :P 19:50:10 if you look at the wiki 19:50:14 on how to join the design team 19:50:20 its terrible :) 19:50:26 I was thinking of doing an interview series - either with some individuals who want to do stuff one-on-one with some marketing team people 19:50:26 it's a lot of bullet points asking you to make accounts and sign stuff 19:50:27 our wiki is so bad 19:50:38 however, that podcast, or even kyle's (awesome) blog post http://blogs.fedoraproject.org/wp/kybaker/2010/05/21/creative-open-sorcery/ 19:50:44 are a much better introduction imho 19:50:44 * rbergeron agrees that join in general needs a bit of user-friendly overhaul 19:50:49 kylebaker, ^^ 19:50:51 yeah 19:51:06 Schendje, would you be willing to be interviewed on how you got started? 19:51:06 anyway - it's also been brought up that we could do like one huge irc-type meeting, as well. 19:51:09 that might be a good piece 19:51:12 oh yeah sure :) 19:51:14 It would. 19:51:29 i think it would be cool if nicubunu could talk about his openclipart submissions too 19:51:46 i think most if not all of us contribute to other open / free culture projects like ocal 19:51:47