17:12:30 <mchua> #startmeeting
17:12:30 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Jul 23 17:12:30 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:12:30 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:12:42 <mchua> #meetingname OSCON talk on edu + foss + design
17:12:42 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'oscon_talk_on_edu_+_foss_+_design'
17:13:08 <mchua> #info I'm at a talk about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_de_Kooning_Academy and how it's using FOSS (both the tools/tech and the open source way of doing things) in its programmes
17:13:22 <mchua> #link http://www.oscon.com/oscon2010/public/schedule/detail/12627
17:13:44 <mchua> They've got their students making art and design pieces building on open technologies - everything from web dev to the arduino.
17:15:16 <mchua> Some of their work:
17:15:19 <mchua> #link http://www.pzwart.wdka.hro.nl/mdr/research/lliang/open_content_guide
17:15:30 <mchua> #info "A guide to open content licenses" by Lawrence Liang
17:15:37 <mchua> #link http://goto10.org/flossart/
17:15:42 <mchua> #info "FLOSS+Art" exhibition
17:16:30 <mchua> #link http://goto10.org/
17:16:37 <mchua> #info "goto10" is a FLOSS+Art blog
17:17:27 <mchua> #info (the last one isn't from the school, but is a group they work with - they're involved with a bunch of FOSS-friendly groups in the Netherlands like GenderChangers)
17:17:43 <mchua> #info In general, they seem to be tapped pretty well into the local FOSS/hacker/maker community.
17:18:21 <mchua> #info Presentation focuses on the Masters program at the Piet Zwart institute within Willem de Kooning.
17:19:07 <mchua> #info Specifically, the "Masters in Media Design & Communication: Networked Media"
17:19:10 <mchua> #link http://pzwart.wdka.nl/networked-media/
17:19:23 <mchua> #info "We offer a Master programme focused on a critical engagement with the culture of the Internet and computer media, their artistic design, technology and theory. It is a small course with a highly international community of students and teachers, and a strong emphasis on personal contact and collaboration."
17:20:22 <mchua> #info Right from the program description: "...Free and Open Source Software and do-it-yourself ethic play a key role in the programme. Aside from its obvious benefit of giving you... toolchains at zero cost, Open Source software tends to be extremely modular, open to DIY and custom applications. It gives value to seemingly outmoded hardware, and provides you with building blocks for your own projects rather than solutions that strongly pref
17:20:30 <mchua> #link http://pzwart.wdka.nl/networked-media/category/study-programme/description-philosophy/
17:21:14 <mchua> #info They keep their info and projects on a wiki
17:21:16 <mchua> #link http://pzwart3.wdka.hro.nl/networked-media/
17:24:32 <mizmo> mchua, oh dude that's AWESOME
17:25:13 <mchua> #info A lot of their projects seem to deal with nifty social hacks - "what if you could delete your entire web 2.0 presence by the click of a button?" ("web suicide") etc.
17:25:24 <mchua> mizmo: if you have questions I can relay, it's a mini-panel.
17:25:47 <mchua> mizmo: I'm looking at their curriculum and drooling, you should read http://pzwart3.wdka.hro.nl/networked-media/
17:26:20 <mchua> it's a 2-year, full-time thing, gets in the tech skills and the art/design skills and the discussion on culture, http://pzwart.wdka.nl/networked-media/category/study-programme/curriculum/
17:27:19 <mizmo> ooh arduino projects
17:27:51 <mchua> Seems like a pretty small group and a lot of personal attention, and the instructors are long-time FOSS hackers/activists.
17:40:23 <mchua> Wow. Their documentation/guides for making projects are... very much written by designers for designers.
17:41:22 <mchua> Using FOSS tools, but there's for instance a regular expressions tutorial that does funky Shakesperean text-replacement stuff, very work-of-artish (I'm not... sure what words to use here) rather than the geeky "haha that's clever" stuff I'm used to.
17:41:49 <mizmo> yeh
17:41:57 <mchua> This is great. They've repurposed FOSS tools to do design. They're making teaching materials that fit their disciplinary culture.
17:42:18 <mchua> I... want these slides to have URLs on them because I cannot find the websites they are showing via google search.
17:42:33 <mchua> mizmo: Are these the sorts of people you're trying to reach wrt Design Team participation?
17:42:43 <mizmo> mchua, yep!!!
17:43:04 <mchua> mizmo: I will try and see if I can get one of them to come talk with you on IRC after the talk. This is super-cool.
17:43:15 <mizmo> that would be kick ass mchua
17:43:19 <mchua> Oooo, they're doing shows and exhibits and everything.
17:44:22 <mchua> (talk is over, I'm about to go up and talk with them, shall be back hopefully with a speaker)
17:44:35 <mchua> (I will be showing them the design spin and some of Mo's recent posts)
17:45:04 <mizmo> yay
17:48:46 <mchua> They're free, we'll get online and come in here
17:49:03 <mizmo> awesome!!!!
17:49:41 <mchua> Unplugging laptops & etc.
17:53:50 <mchua> mizmo: They want to know about how the design team collaborates - because there are guidelines on how to contribute to many FOSS projects (icons, etc) but not a lot of ways for designers to work on things together.
17:54:08 <mchua> mizmo: Do you want to describe some of the stuff Fedora Design does, some of the tools you're hoping to set up?
17:54:22 <mizmo> sure, i guess there's two tracks to answering that
17:54:43 <mizmo> both the fedora design team and the upstream gnome design teams have been trying to figure out better tools with which to collaborate
17:54:54 <mizmo> a lot of the gnome designers are now using google wave ( closed source :( )
17:54:58 <mizmo> and dropbox
17:55:14 <mizmo> we had an in-person UX hackfest back in january
17:55:23 <mizmo> and brainstormed ideas on how we could get better open source tools
17:55:31 <mizmo> so one tool that's already quite far progressed is called sparkle share
17:55:41 <mizmo> it is essentially an open source version of dropbox implemented on top of git
17:55:54 <mizmo> http://www.sparkleshare.org/
17:56:00 <mizmo> another one is called design hub
17:56:09 <mizmo> and it's kind of like a cross between deviant art / photoshop tennis / and a forum
17:56:20 <mizmo> but that one, development is a little stalled at the moment, we have some RoR code on github for it
17:56:31 <mchua> ooh, let me find your blog post on that
17:56:35 <mizmo> http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/design-hub-update/
17:56:37 <mizmo> thats one of them
17:56:57 <mizmo> http://mairin.wordpress.com/category/design-hub/  <= heres a few of them
17:57:04 <mizmo> the last post on that page is from the GNOME ux hackfest back in january
17:57:25 <mizmo> so we've been working a bit on developing tools to help designers in particular collaborate but obviously we are not developers so it's slow going :)
17:57:56 <mizmo> we have a ticket system (Trac-based) where we organize projects and tasks
17:58:07 <mizmo> and usually what'll happen for a bigger project, like a UX redesign for a software app
17:58:35 <mizmo> is we'll have one designer who is the owner, they get to make the final calls, but they collaborate with the other designers for feedback and help and report in on their progress at our weekly meetings in irc
17:59:00 <mizmo> we always post our mockups and sourcefiles for them in the mediawiki
17:59:06 <mizmo> and share that to get feedback
17:59:08 <mchua> mizmo: oooh! they just showed me http://django.parcodiyellowstone.it/accounts/login/?redirect_to=/pickpic/selectproject/
17:59:24 <mizmo> an example project page is here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design/AnacondaStorageUI
17:59:28 * mizmo looks
17:59:46 <mizmo> OH MY GOD THAT LOOKS AMAZING
18:00:06 * mizmo signs up
18:01:18 <mchua> they made that to try and get the design workflow from top-down dictation, central control
18:01:24 <mchua> to bottom-up ideas coming in and being tried out
18:01:27 <mchua> without being utterly chaotic
18:01:30 <ianweller> (haha, they have DEBUG=True on on their django app. bad idea.)
18:01:31 <mchua> they've also tried "pair design"
18:01:33 <mchua> like pair programming
18:01:56 <mizmo> ahhh that sounds interesting
18:02:02 <mizmo> it probably works best in-person though right?
18:02:08 <mizmo> one of our challenges is eveyrone is remote from each othedr
18:03:08 <mchua> event upcoming: http://makeart.goto10.org/call/
18:03:12 <mchua> yeah, they do it in -person
18:04:12 <aymeric> ianweller: sure :)
18:04:31 <aymeric> ianweller: we're mostly designers and artists not really Professional coders ;)
18:04:35 <mizmo> i love the requirements for the event :)
18:04:43 <mizmo> "The submitted projects must fit this focus and be made in a free/libre
18:04:43 <mizmo> and open source environment, this includes both its optional
18:04:43 <mizmo> dependencies or production tools and the operating system. We are
18:04:44 <mizmo> asking you to publish the sources of your project under a free culture
18:04:44 <mizmo> license of your choice or release it into the public domain.
18:04:44 <mizmo> Projects that do not meet these criteria will not be considered.
18:04:46 <mizmo> "
18:05:02 <ianweller> mchua (aymeric): "
18:05:04 <ianweller> mchua (aymeric): :)
18:08:20 <mizmo> mchua, what are the URLs that weren't in the slides
18:08:24 * mizmo is interested to see some of the guides
18:09:06 <mizmo> also i am wondering if these folks are hooked into the libre graphics meeting community?
18:09:17 <mizmo> http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/
18:09:57 <aymeric> yes and no
18:10:22 <mizmo> i think Femke is associated with your group? I think I've seen him at LGM
18:10:38 <aymeric> we gave a talk at the last LGM and it was a bit of a culture shock, mostly because we're not super interested in free alternatives to proprietary design software
18:10:56 <aymeric> but more alternatives methodologies. experimental tools, etc ...
18:11:04 <mizmo> do you feel like the LGM emphasis is on direct replacements?
18:11:14 <aymeric> mizmo: Yes I have this feeling
18:11:16 * mizmo never quite felt that way but, i could see how you might get that impression
18:11:49 <aymeric> mizmo: BTW, Femke is one of the co founder of our course :)
18:11:54 <mizmo> ah okay cool :)
18:12:18 <mizmo> i feel very similarly that it's not having some floss equivalents that is important. more important is enabling what the artist wants to achieve by whatever means you've got
18:15:32 <mizmo> is pickpic in active development right now?
18:15:44 <mizmo> ianweller, it's django so it is python-based?
18:15:52 <mizmo> so wonderful... not yet another php app :)
18:16:03 <ianweller> mizmo: yeah. you thinking of running it on fedora's infra?
18:16:11 <mizmo> ianweller, it would be so kick ss
18:16:36 <ianweller> mizmo: we have another django-based app already (transifex) but infra's not to keen on django as it is on the TG stack, but if a good enough use case is presented they'd probably put it in
18:16:55 <mizmo> ianweller, every other designer-oriented app we've suggested in php
18:17:01 <mizmo> :)
18:18:54 <aymeric> mizmo: picpic needs active development help, in fact.
18:19:03 <mchua> sooo maybe we can help each other out there.
18:19:31 <mchua> mizmo: aymeric also wants to show you http://people.makeart.goto10.org/
18:19:56 <mizmo> yep ive got the PDF of it now :) it looks like a great read
18:20:11 <mizmo> we have more turbogears expertise than django, but i might be able to find someone to help
18:20:18 <mizmo> is there anybody directing the design of pickpic?
18:20:41 <mizmo> the problem we had with designhub is that i was doing the design work, and the RoR volunteer was very fast to code up designs, but i got too overloaded and didn't have enough time to keep up with him
18:21:41 <aymeric> mizmo: everything is done by a recently graduated student
18:21:58 <aymeric> mizmo: he actually graduated with this project
18:22:13 <mizmo> aymeric, ahh okay - he has probably moved on then?
18:22:36 <aymeric> mizmo: no no, he's quite interested in developing it further
18:22:54 <mizmo> oh okay great
18:23:05 <mizmo> can you send me his contact info?
18:23:12 <aymeric> mizmo: aymeric@kuri.mu <- ping me later and I could hook you up
18:23:14 <mizmo> mine is Máirín Duffy and my email is duffy at redhat dot com
18:23:17 <mizmo> okay great
18:23:42 <aymeric> anyway, it would be very helpful if I could get in touch and discuss with all of you guys later on
18:23:53 <mizmo> aymeric, absolutely
18:24:24 <aymeric> next to my own stuff and the teaching, I'm a PhD student researching on art design and open source practices, so I'm really interested in how you're all working
18:25:09 <mizmo> ah okay awesome
18:25:21 <mizmo> it's definitely something we've been trying to figure out as we've gone along :)
18:25:27 <mizmo> aymeric, oh oh i have something i must show you, one second
18:25:43 <mizmo> aymeric, http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/contributing-to-free-open-source-software-as-a-designer/
18:25:51 <mizmo> this is a paper i wrote for a CHI workshop earlier this year
18:25:53 <tatica> mizmo, http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyrusbulsara/4267609467/in/set-72157614183652125/lightbox/
18:26:01 <mizmo> it's 12 pages - it outlines all of the processes of the fedora design team
18:26:11 <aymeric> oh wow
18:26:34 <aymeric> do you mind sending the URL to me by mail?
18:26:58 <mizmo> aymeric, not at all :) ill send it now
18:27:18 <mizmo> tatica, sooo cute :)
18:27:31 <tatica> too much... he wants to play with the teddy bear
18:27:32 <aymeric> super
18:27:43 <aymeric> ok need to now, let's keep in touch :)
18:27:57 <mchua> mizmo: I'll be back in a minute
18:28:04 <mizmo> okie doke
18:28:20 <mizmo> tatica, he's waving to it!
18:29:35 <tatica> :D
18:41:16 <mizmo> #endmeeting
18:42:02 <ianweller> mchua: #endmeeting plzkthxzors :)
18:54:24 <mchua> #endmeeting