19:01:37 #startmeeting 19:01:37 Meeting started Tue Aug 24 19:01:37 2010 UTC. The chair is mizmo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:01:37 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 19:01:39 heyhey 19:01:45 #topic roll call 19:01:53 * Schendje is here 19:02:11 * Emichan present! 19:03:12 okay 19:03:19 lol not a great turnout but 19:03:26 we'll see if more folks show up as we go :) 19:03:28 * Schendje pokes fabsh inkscaper tatica :) 19:03:37 #topic supplemental wallpapers 19:04:13 has everyone here voted? 19:04:23 i did a tally including jimmac and kylebaker's votes 19:04:28 not me, sorry 19:04:29 i dont think the current tally is missing anyone's votes 19:04:36 but you can skip them 19:04:39 Schendje, do you wanna pick through them real quick now? 19:04:44 it only took me about 5 minutes or so 19:04:49 mizmo, did you get Jakub Steiner's votes? 19:05:15 Emichan, yep :) jimmac = Jakub Steiner 19:05:26 * mbenitez here 19:05:27 :D 19:05:44 so far it looks like the top runners are pretty solid 19:05:49 so i think we'll have a nice set of wallpapers 19:06:09 i think fabsh is going to sort everything out tomorrow 19:06:15 so we'll have the official final list then i think 19:06:23 some of them may need editing, right? 19:06:34 yep definitely 19:06:48 another step we need to do is verify the licenses on them. 19:07:12 i think a good thing to do is to contact the authors of each individually, let them know we really like the wallpaper, describe how we'll be using it, and make sure our method of attribution is acceptable to them 19:07:32 thats all due sep 3 i think 19:07:34 how many will be accepted? 19:07:35 then we also need to make sure the licenses allow editing of the ones that need it... 19:07:35 20? 19:07:36 so we can then package them up 19:07:45 i think it depends Schendje 19:07:51 Emichan, oh they all do 19:07:57 ;) 19:07:58 Emichan, we didn't accept any CC licenses that didn't allow editing 19:08:02 good 19:08:06 but it's always good to double-check that there is no license switcheroo 19:08:27 Schendje, for example, if the first 15 have 3 votes or more, then 16-25 are 2 votes a piece, it might be good to cut off at 15 19:08:37 mizmo: ok i see :) 19:08:47 right now we have 3 votes + for each up to #17 19:09:01 then 2 votes a piece from 18 - 34 19:09:07 i wonder how many gnome comes with, 19:09:09 * mizmo takes a quick look 19:09:17 not that many... 19:09:35 gnome does 18 it looks like 19:09:42 at least in RHEL 6 beta it does hehe 19:09:47 so if we do 17 i think we're being pretty reasonable 19:10:10 we need to include fabsh's own votes though in the final tally 19:10:30 so far i think we're doing pretty good on the supplemental wallpapers project though, folks were really good about getting their votes in :) 19:10:37 okay so let me see the next agenda topic 19:10:47 #topic f14 wallpaper 19:10:51 so we're running out of time on this 19:10:58 i think fredpyo said he was going to try for some more iterations 19:11:12 ive gotten a lot of negative feedback on the latest revisions unfortunately :( 19:11:26 does anyone have time/interest in playing with it? 19:11:33 I've got an iteration, maybe two I'm working on, i'll try and post asap 19:11:33 it needs to be ready to go by sep 10 i think 19:11:46 Emichan, ohhhh sweet! i'm really looking forward to seeing them 19:11:59 :) 19:12:11 okay and speaking of which 19:12:15 #topic f14 splashes 19:12:23 Emichan, did you have any luck with some splash designs for beta? 19:12:29 yes, i've been working on them. 19:12:30 did the link i sent you last week have enough info to go on? 19:12:42 enough to get started definitely 19:12:48 okay cool 19:12:56 i hope to have most of them up for comment by tomorrow 19:13:02 kick ass! :) 19:13:08 okay great 19:13:12 we are in much better shape than i thought 19:13:16 thanks to Emichan :) 19:13:17 6 sep is the deadline for those right? 19:13:21 yep i think so 19:13:29 :) 19:13:32 * mizmo double checks - yep 19:13:42 okay 19:13:45 i'm going to add a topic quick 19:13:50 #topic www.fedoraproject.org redesign 19:13:57 i've been making some good but slow progress on the www.fpo mockups 19:14:09 so the last mockup i posted.... lemme grab the url 19:14:11 mizmo, the latest slideshow design rocked! 19:14:18 :D 19:14:27 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:Wwwfpo-redesign-2010_1-frontpage.png 19:14:34 i got a lot of feedback on this one that it looks too 'corporate' 19:14:45 i think maybe 5 separate people spoke up and gave that as a concern 19:15:05 Emichan, well let me show you this week's and let me know if it sitll rocks :) 19:15:16 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:Wwwfpo-redesign-2010_1b-frontpage.png 19:15:17 that's the new one 19:15:23 i think you might have seen it on identi.ca though 19:15:25 i posted it last night 19:15:40 it's an attempt to make the site look less corporate and more friendly 19:16:02 and ive been working on the features & screenshots page 19:16:18 this is what i had last night 19:16:19 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:Wwwfpo-redesign-2010_1-features.png 19:16:27 but actually i've changed it up a bit, let me do a quick export to refresh that 19:17:01 the slide area is my favorite so far 19:17:09 yay 19:17:23 the rest of the site is definitely better - but it looks like it could still use some polish 19:18:07 yeh 19:18:19 well shift-reload this guy https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/d/de/Wwwfpo-redesign-2010_1-features.png 19:18:31 this is my work in progress features & screenshots page as of about half an hour ago 19:19:14 mizmo: do these use cantarell? 19:19:21 Schendje, yep :) 19:19:24 what do you think? 19:19:38 on identi.ca i think there was at least one if not two comments on the font being nice 19:19:51 cantarell is looking good here :) 19:20:11 it really works well 19:20:15 hmmm not sure about the green... 19:20:27 i think the icon bar is still droid though i have to update it (in the features page, the overview icons) 19:20:36 im totally open to color suggestions 19:20:59 Emichan: agreed, the text looks really nice :) 19:21:01 its kind of desaturated for fedora i think 19:21:05 i like the green, just not that shade, or maybe it contrasts too much with the header... 19:21:08 but i picked the green from the front page illustration 19:21:10 maybe the yellow from the front page 19:21:28 i just think the green makes it look a little drab 19:21:43 yeh its a drabby green 19:22:24 you could go for more of a kelly green, but it's hard to pick a color based on speculation 19:23:45 maybe we could use the orange from the "features" foundation? 19:23:56 maybe make it a little less bright 19:24:09 but since the "back to top" buttons already use it 19:25:15 well, it is the "features" page, so the features orange makes sense :) 19:25:28 Emichan: yeah exactly :) 19:25:41 liking those orange buttons, btw! 19:26:10 also, maybe less text for the different apps would work better? 19:26:12 blue+orange=complementary 19:26:27 just a few lines... just naming the killer features 19:26:48 we've already got the "learn more" links anyway 19:26:57 schendje++ 19:27:13 well 19:27:23 i was trying to avoid using orange because then the back to top buttons dont pop anymore :-/ 19:27:35 i had tried orange before green, and it was pretty loud unfortunately :( 19:27:35 the app descriptions are getting into tl;dr territory... 19:27:50 but maybe a less saturated orange? 19:27:59 mizmo, that's what I was thinking 19:28:02 you only need them if you scroll down, and if you scroll down you won't see the top orange bar anymore... :P 19:28:22 Emichan, yeh they are :) as ive been working on the page though ive been getting lazy and making them shorter so i'll have to shorten the longer one 19:28:37 Schendje, true, but the top bar is still exceedingly loud in orange 19:28:40 less saturated, getting into the reddish-yellow area 19:29:02 yeh i bet that would work 19:29:05 oh yeah definitely... simply taking the same orange would make it scream, i can imagine :) 19:29:06 less saturated 19:29:19 Schendje +1 19:30:04 yeah, the buttons and the color bar are far enough apart, where using a similar color on top won't overwhelm the buttons 19:30:22 cool 19:30:47 download will just be our current new download pages reformatted to this template 19:30:54 then we need community + tutorials + help 19:31:23 hello, sorry for being late 19:31:26 hey finalzone 19:31:41 finalzone, we were just finishing up reviewing the latest www.fpo redesigns 19:31:51 finalzone, this is the features page https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/d/de/Wwwfpo-redesign-2010_1-features.png 19:32:01 finalzone, and this is the front page https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/b/b7/Wwwfpo-redesign-2010_1b-frontpage.png 19:32:57 mizmo, are they final mockup? 19:33:03 finalzone, nope, total works in progress 19:33:10 if you have any comments/feedback please feel free to chime in 19:33:13 hey, is the meeting still going? 19:33:15 i posted the sources too 19:33:17 they are at 19:33:33 ... 19:33:36 * mizmo grabbing link 19:33:42 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign/Mockups/Www.fpo#Sources 19:34:27 msourada, yep 19:34:36 msourada, although weve pretty much exhausted our agenda :) 19:34:52 #topic open floor 19:34:53 mizmo: "learn more" and "download now" buttons from frontpage are looking a bit strange, maybe bland?, to me... perhaps try either different shade of color or make them darker 19:35:07 mizmo: i should still work on the join page, right? 19:35:19 mizmo, I should have watched the time more carefully then :( 19:35:27 Schendje, yep!!! 19:35:30 you still upf or it? 19:35:37 mizmo: oh yeah absolutely :) 19:35:38 msourada, ah i can see that 19:35:40 msourada, maybe a darker blue 19:35:43 they were originally fedora blue 19:35:53 but they matched the nav bar and it didnt quite look right 19:35:59 i'll start in a few minutes i think :) 19:36:02 it would pull your focus all over the place and make the page feel pretty cluttered 19:36:09 Schendje, that would be fantastic! 19:36:16 mizmo, also IMHO, the "free your desktop with fedora" has too low contrast with the background 19:37:19 its about just as bad with white 19:37:26 and blue 19:37:52 dark grey seems to work though 19:38:12 msourada, maybe we'll go with the dark grey then 19:38:29 mizmo: maybe try complementary color? like orange? although it would be maybe too much... 19:38:43 msourada, can't overuse the orange, then the arrows on the slideshow won't pop 19:38:47 mizmo, yeah, dark grey sounds fine 19:38:58 mizmo, good point 19:39:06 eee it looks kind of crazy with orange text too lol 19:39:09 very halloween-y 19:39:10 hehe 19:39:22 hehe 19:39:22 i think the dark grey is a lot more readable 19:39:38 see im glad you spoke up msourada ive been staring at this mockup so long 19:39:45 i totally missed that the main headline was so hard to read 19:40:26 does anybody have anything cool or interesting to mention? 19:40:27 I know that feeling. When stare at something too long, it will eventually start to look right, even if it isn't... 19:40:39 i just sent john rose a design for fedora lanyards today 19:40:51 i posted all the files here http://fedorapeople.org/groups/designteam/Fedora%20Collateral/Lanyards/ 19:41:11 the fabric for them is going to be silver, so the f punched one is with the fedora logo 'f' punched out so you can see through to the silver 19:41:29 he is going to send them to the lanyard printers and get some digital proofs back; ill send them to the list when they come in 19:41:37 mizmo, another tiny detail: the language drop-down box -- it looks odd when the button does not have rounded corners while the entry has... 19:41:38 * mizmo trying to remember if theres anythign else interesting to mention 19:41:53 msourada, oh thats totally sloppiness on my part :) i think i'll just be a standard html dropdown 19:41:58 s/i'll/it'll 19:42:51 mizmo, that would work, although, I beleive, that's usually rendered same as desktop widget, so it might look a bit out of place... but nothing to kill baby seals :D 19:44:02 there's only so much styling you can apply to form elements ;) 19:44:40 Emichan, I'm noob when it comes to html and css... but I think some basic styling of form elements can be done with css? 19:46:34 yes, some styling can be done, but certain form elements are particularly tricky, and styling select boxes is really limited... 19:47:20 i used to go to town with form elements in IE 5.5, ah the good old days 19:47:24 for some definitions of good lol 19:47:34 :) 19:47:36 planning to use html5 on the fp.p? 19:47:40 ft.o? 19:48:09 hehe, how I'm glad I'm working on gtk theming and not html/css :D 19:48:50 whose job is it to translate the mockup to workable markup/styling? ours or web team? 19:49:08 Emichan: both a bit, i believe? 19:49:09 I thought web team will take care of those mockup 19:49:30 i guess anyone who wants to work on it :D 19:49:50 whoever we can rope into it? is that the idea? ;) 19:50:16 hehe :D 19:50:39 finalzone, yep! 19:50:50 i think mizmo and sijis worked together on the community site? 19:50:52 finalzone, have you seen the fedoracommunity.org staging site? 19:50:56 how does this work, mizmo? 19:50:57 it uses the new css font embedding 19:51:03 with Comfortaa 19:51:12 http://stg.fedoracommunity.org/latam.html 19:51:18 @font-face is the best! 19:51:32 Emichan, Sijis on the websites team has been doing mockup => htm/css conversion 19:51:40 then i've been going back in and tweaking it to be pixel-perfect 19:51:52 mizmo, awesome, it appears Cantarell is used as well 19:51:57 we're probably going to need a lot of help with www.fpo 19:51:59 finalzone, yep!!! 19:52:14 that's the idea anyway 19:52:19 im not sure it's loading for me at the moment thouh 19:52:24 i think i have to check in the cantarell font ile 19:52:26 file 19:53:16 speaking about cantarell, I am waiting for dave to update his source 19:53:30 mizmo, you should consider using css3 gradients for the continent nav - it's so much easier to maintain :) 19:53:34 mizmo, try it with epiphany or midori. the top button bar is rendered incorrectly. Are you using some browser specific quirks there? 19:54:36 Emichan, oh i haven't worked with them yet 19:54:49 Emichan, sounds like it'll work well though 19:54:57 msourada, i dont think so 19:55:01 msourada, screenshot? 19:55:10 mizmo, just missing rounded corners 19:55:28 that may be browser specific 19:55:40 that should not be a big deal 19:55:44 you need to add in -webkit- border radius 19:55:53 msourada, i believe we have multiple stanzas for rounded corners for widest browser coverage, but if epiphany/midori don't support rounded corners there is not much to be done 19:56:04 * mizmo checks in firebug 19:56:15 ahhh they are missing 19:56:16 good catch 19:56:36 okay cool ill update the css 19:56:51 Emichan, it's still not in any w3 draft? I wonder why it's still with vendor prefixes... 19:57:08 it hasn't been added to official spec yet 19:57:24 so, it's still up to the browsers to implement on a one-on-one basis 19:57:29 as i understand it :) 19:57:36 vendor rounded corners have been around forever, it's crazy its not in the official spec 19:57:54 well, luckily there's not much beyond -mozilla and -webkit (or something like that)... but still... 19:58:01 i think they are adding it - specifics may still be in dispute... 19:58:02 there's IE ones too 19:58:15 or they may still have it up for comment, etc 19:58:25 the w3c specs move like glaciars!!! 19:58:31 lol 19:58:43 html5 isn't official either, is it... 19:58:52 i think parts of it are... 19:58:57 i feel like banging those w3c for being so slow 19:59:03 lol 19:59:20 well, i understand it - there's a lot at stake... 19:59:20 well, they need to do it properly... I can understand why are they so slow with new specs... 19:59:56 luckily, the new browser wars have been really pushing development pace! :D 20:00:13 * Schendje is looking forward to FF4! ^^ 20:00:27 lets hope somebody stop thinking about vendor lock-in 20:00:43 yeah... good thing apple opensourced webkit and google ported it as chromium... 20:01:35 and FF development has really sped up with their new release policies 20:02:08 well, they had to... to keep up with google... :D 20:02:10 that only shows competition is good and healthy =p 20:02:15 Emichan: i want it to be faster though :( 20:02:34 Emichan: i won't leave my dear FF soon but it's not exactly blazing 20:02:47 schendje, what part? js? ui? 20:03:06 Schendje, I left firefox around 2.5... :-D And I'm happy since then. 20:03:16 Emichan: i mainly mean the startup/shutdown times 20:03:16 FF4 should have much better js speed thx to jaegermonkey! 20:03:20 those are awful :O 20:03:55 another format that needs love is svg. I don't understand why adobe didn't adopt it instead 20:03:56 and it does not do youtube yet... :-D 20:04:01 schendje, get rid of any extensions/plugins - those are the greediest part of ff in my experience 20:04:15 Emichan: yeah i should clean up again :) 20:04:46 msourada, what's your browser of choice? personally i can't live without firebug... 20:04:55 firefox has zillions of useless stuff in and you need to install another zillion of extensions to actually make it pleasant to work with... 20:05:07 Emichan: i think it's mostly Sync bringing it down... I wanted to use it, but then forgot the password as soon as I booted up my other partition... so I'm only syncing one profile with itself xD 20:05:32 Emichan, I'm with midori. Still lacks some features like password saving, but it's working great and fast. And the important stuff is already in. 20:05:46 msourada, i'll have to give it a shot. :) 20:06:11 Emichan, i'm exactly the same i can't live without firebug 20:06:24 Emichan, I wonder when will 0.2.7 hit repos... it has some really cool new features >:D 20:06:42 looks like IE9 is going to support at least some SVG spec: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/03/18/svg-in-ie9-roadmap.aspx 20:07:16 Emichan, mizmo: I haven't ever tried firebug, so I might be off track, but have you tried Web Inspector (available in all webkit, chromium, chrome and safari) 20:07:19 ? 20:07:19 but i want to know what happened to SMIL, i think everyone forgot about it :) 20:07:42 msourada, web inspector is pretty good, but i still like firebug better ;) 20:07:43 hello : 20:07:52 hehe 20:07:59 msourada, i haven't but i have heard it is not as good 20:08:02 firebug? 20:08:07 dvanstone, hello :) 20:08:15 hi dvanstone! we're talking about browsers :) 20:08:24 emichan, I never tried smil before 20:08:24 apparently IE has some kind of firebug knockoff that really sucks 20:08:32 msourada ,why no just use 20:08:39 chrome? 20:08:51 mizmo: yes it does 20:08:52 Emichan, mizmo: it seems to be under heavy development, it's totally more powerful compared to half a year ago... 20:08:52 finalzone, i'm not sure any browser actually supports it, but it was pretty exciting back in the day... 20:09:02 mizmo: i wanna say its called IEDev 20:09:09 I could imagine IE? 20:09:42 dvanstone, I prefer chromium to chrome, as it's 100 % open, but some UI elements really suck there (totally unmanagable when you have too many tabs) 20:09:45 mizmo, i've used debugbar for IE (cuz it has to work in ie too dangit!) - it is seriously lacking compared to firebug 20:09:54 for what is the purpose 20:10:26 It just depends on your taste some people like tomatoes also 20:10:30 msourada, i'll give it a shot - i usually use it somewhat when testing in webkit anyway... 20:10:46 emichan, it seems smil is still alive now 3.0 spec. If that is good, I frankly don't understand why no vendors use it 20:11:56 I may be missing the point here? ※ whats the topic? 20:12:04 finalzone, me neither... although you can do SVG animation with JS, SMIL should be a lot easier to maintain then JS 20:12:04 Emichan, hehe. Here's some older blogpost about web inspector updates: http://webkit.org/blog/1091/more-web-inspector-updates/ 20:12:57 dvanstone, we're talking about cross browser support 20:13:01 Emichan, and with html5 you can combine html, svg and js... all in one file... SMIL starts to loose it's purpose a bit... maybe... 20:13:55 msourada, i can see that, still seems like SMIL would be nice to have as an option, esp if you don't need event handling... 20:14:34 * Schendje is gonna mess around with the new www.fpo mockups :D 20:15:19 msourada, new web inspector features look v interesting, i'll have to give it another shot! :) do you know if wi supports plugins? 20:16:07 Emichan, plugins? As in netscape plugins? I doubt that, but not 100 % sure. 20:16:23 oh web design right up my alley I was refered here from fedora art I asked for hair extensions or addon for gimp or other art renders 20:17:38 msourada, plugins/extensions/whatever ;) there are some useful fb plugins and i was just wondering if wi had similar capability... 20:18:24 dvanstone, hair extensions? try the beauty salon ;) 20:18:38 Emichan, aah, in that sense. Probably not. Most certainly not the firebug ones... 20:19:18 msourada, i wouldn't expect the fb ones to be compatible, just wondering about the possibility of porting... 20:19:32 mizmo: where can I get the sources for www.fpo? 20:20:42 mizmo: wooops, found them! :) 20:21:02 Emichan, well, if they're useful they could be probably integrated into wi itself, but you'd have to convince the devs :D 20:23:52 dvanstone, i'm not sure what you're trying to do, but here's some info on creating hair in blender: http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-240/hair-strand-rendering/ 20:24:29 dvanstone, there are also some blender hair tutorials on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn1ujPlJbJI 20:25:05 FYI, another update to my nodoka sketches: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lh41g82r7rk/THKiq9j7BPI/AAAAAAAAAU8/yW755scEahM/s1600/modern-layout.png 20:25:30 as usual, comments welcome. Relevant blogpost: http://mso-chronicles.blogspot.com/2010/08/nodoka-gtk-engine-075-released-status.html 20:25:41 msourada, I really like the drop shadows under the icons! :) 20:26:01 Schendje, some of the header ones are in the older source file 20:26:55 Emichan, and these are Echo icons... frankly, I created these three just for the sake of this sketch, but they'll eventually make it into echo perspective 20:26:58 Schendje, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:Wwwfpo-redesign-2010_mockup.svg it would be the one on the bottom there 20:27:21 msourada, can't wait, it looks really good! :) 20:27:31 mizmo: ok cool :) 20:28:11 Emichan, thanks :) Thanks encouraging :) I just dread the amount of code that I'll need to write to make it actually work... 20:30:03 msourada, :( but it'll be worth it, right? :) 20:31:32 Emichan, yeah, probably. Since I'll be using it myself :D 20:32:15 msourada, i'll be using it too! :D assuming we still use GTK at that point ;) 20:32:23 so much priorities that echo icon has been on hibernation mode 20:33:50 #endmeeting