19:09:16 #startmeeting 19:09:16 Meeting started Tue Jun 7 19:09:16 2011 UTC. The chair is tatica. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:09:16 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 19:09:27 #topic rollcall 19:09:36 * mizmo here 19:09:40 hello and welcome to this your weekly design meeting! 19:09:50 * kirkB here 19:10:09 in order to know who's with the blue side of the force, please say a kind "hello" and invoque all the jjedi forces! 19:10:16 * tatica o/ 19:10:55 how is that "ping all"? 19:11:02 #chair mizmo 19:11:02 Current chairs: mizmo tatica 19:11:54 #pingall roll call, speak up if you're interested 19:12:05 or, meetbot could ignore me, that's cool too. i'm used to that. 19:12:20 #pingall 19:12:24 This is the first meeting I've attended in person, so if there's something more I need to do just poke me 19:12:36 same here 19:12:38 :) 19:12:51 well, as we are a small group I think we can do a sorta informal meeting 19:12:54 meetbot: pingall roll call, please say hello if you're around for the meeting 19:13:15 oh geez 19:13:18 meetbot isn't in here 19:13:20 usually to ask to speak you use ! 19:13:33 and to end your intervention use a eof 19:13:46 but again, I would rather this time be more informal 19:13:49 looks like I missed the beginning, silly me :-D Greetings to all 19:13:57 msourada, hello! 19:14:13 anyway 19:14:28 let's talk about our most important topic for the next couple of months 19:14:35 #topic Fedora 16 artwork 19:15:03 as you may know, we have been already working and trying some interesting ideas based on Julio Verne's books 19:15:19 ixxvil, has put a lot of effort on that, creating some impressive hand draws 19:15:39 here is our schedule without dates filled in yet https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F16_Artwork/Schedule 19:15:43 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F16_Artwork/Schedule 19:15:51 the idea (the one we have right now) is to use ixxvil draws and do a digital painting with them 19:15:53 thx! 19:16:03 #link overall Fedora 16 release schedule with dates http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/16/Schedule 19:16:31 #link ixxvil draws and team painting http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/ 19:16:43 There's also http://rbergero.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-16/f-16-design-tasks.html 19:16:53 (which can be adjusted by talking to rbergeron) 19:17:07 so the idea is to chat a little bit about how we see this idea evolve and if we have some questions/ideas for it 19:17:47 and also talk about F16 tasks besides the wallpaper, right? 19:17:51 ixxvil, should have a couple of extra draws for this week (right?) 19:18:10 on my list i have (1) F16 wallpaper (2) supplemental wallpapers for F16 - we need a volunteer to run this 19:18:18 (3) Anaconda UX 19:18:21 (4) ABRT UX 19:18:36 finalzone, ocoutts welcome :) 19:18:42 sure mizmo , we have time :) 19:18:45 thank you tatica 19:18:52 jsmith: quick looks leads me to first problem - the alpha package is due after alpha freeze/branching, not good... 19:19:08 so, does you guys/girls like/dislike how wallpaper ideas are going? 19:19:15 tatica: Thanks! 19:19:18 have any special requirement about artwork so far? 19:19:37 the concepts are awesome, the sketches are beautiful. i worry about final rendering but i always worry about that 19:19:48 its hard to know without seeing the final rendering if it will work well as a wallpaper or be too cluttered 19:19:53 msourada: I didn't create the schedule -- but yes, if you think things on the schedule need to be adjusted, please agree on them as a team and bring them to rbergeron 19:20:13 tatica, I like the underwater idea, and jellyfish are very mysterious. I like the nautilus metaphor too. Is it a problem that the orientation is portrait? 19:20:15 rbergeron, our schedule needs adjusting ^^ 19:20:18 * tatica hopes rbergeron is reading :) 19:20:41 kirkB, yes, I already ask ixxvil to draw an empty deep sea 19:20:45 * msourada likes http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/post/view/9 19:20:50 we have so many great sketches of different scenes, it would be cool to not only use one as the default, but also release them as a wallpaper pack 19:21:12 yup, as I said before meeting... a suplementary verne's package 19:21:22 there is a lot of amazing work in progress and we should use them all 19:21:25 kirkB, i think it's okay we probably want the area of interest aligned towards the right-hand side of the screen anway 19:21:45 so we could supplement with the empty deep sea that tatica mentioned, along the left side of the submarine image 19:21:48 kirkB, there is an option B more radical... that ixxvil draw separatedly all elements from his draw and we put them together fitting a horizontal size 19:22:10 I think is some problems with that scene 19:22:20 mythcat, go ahead 19:22:29 mythcat, we have a comments field underneath each drawing that you can add critique to btw 19:22:39 in 3D is easy because we have render engine 19:22:40 jsmith: good point, I'll probably do a more through investigation post-meeting and propose the needed changes on design list. 19:22:53 msourada: Awesome, thanks :-) 19:23:01 but if we want put in another soft will be some problems 19:23:24 (like gimp or inkscape) 19:23:37 mythcat, the problem is that we don't have blender artists working on it 19:23:47 are there any blender artists here willing to render one of ixxvil's mockups in 3D? 19:24:04 mythcat, we could do some tries with blender after we end up the sketch/coloring process 19:24:20 mythcat, I could do the submarine, but the jellyfish will take me a lot of time 19:24:25 mizmo , i have a idea , just render the object and painting on the end 19:24:26 I my ask kushal help 19:24:32 * tatica will explore that idea later 19:24:33 * msourada would prefer more artsy style for Verne than 3D renderings, but if you convince me with quality otherwise... 19:24:44 msourada, +1 19:24:52 yes , i make one , but will be a low resolution 19:25:00 yeh i agree msourada i would like maybe a painterly look 19:25:12 mythcat, you could always do the wireframe and someone with more computing power could do the render 19:25:29 ixxvil, 'r u there? 19:25:31 and will paint after ... yes wireframe 19:25:39 mythcat+1 19:25:53 he's probably busy sketching :) 19:26:10 lol, yes 19:26:13 anyway 19:26:21 I think we all agree that this is a great idea to develop 19:26:38 yes 19:26:51 another idea to the mix at later stage 19:27:13 is to fully take advantage of dynamic wallpapers feature 19:27:21 finalzone+1 19:27:29 interesting! 19:27:38 well... I will ask you all to give a constant look to http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/ and please, comment, critique, help and upload all your ideas 19:27:54 ixxvil, and the rest of the team are uploading everything in there 19:27:55 maybe instead of doing the same wallpaper over time, we render all of ixxvil's sketches, and animated between the different scenes 19:28:03 we can totally do that 19:28:15 that's going to take a lot of time... but is something that we can considerate 19:28:15 but we need to keep in mind that only gnome supports dynamic wallpapers 19:28:22 we haven't yet pain the first draw 19:28:27 msourada, yes 19:28:38 and not everyone uses gnome 19:28:46 I think the neat thing about dynamic wallpapers is the time awareness - could we have different versions that introduce varying levels of lightness and light sources? 19:28:49 yeh but its not a big loss if you dont have gnome 19:28:59 * msourada uses xfce since F15 for example >D 19:29:11 we could just do some lights like kirkB says 19:29:15 rather than the alpha blending im saying, ixxvil's got say 4 different compositions. so one can be the early morning wallpaper, one can be late morning, one afternoon, one evening 19:29:17 and keep the rest of the wallpapers as a special package 19:29:23 so it jsut switches there isnt a transition 19:29:36 i like gnome ... and xfce ... 19:29:40 if you have kde, you have one of them as default, but the other 3 will be in your wallpaper chooser if you want to switch manually 19:30:16 usually we do alpha blending between different colorations of the same exact composition 19:30:40 but it would be cool to try completely different compositions without the blend (and it wouldn't be any extra work, except writing the animation xml, which I can do really quickly) 19:30:53 mizmo: I never thought about that! How neat. Same can be done for XFCE. LXDE is poorly supported, so does not matter much... 19:31:20 :) 19:31:33 yeh :) it would rely on us digitally painting multiple of the wallpapers though 19:31:35 so it's a reach goal 19:31:43 we could always fall back to having one wallpaper if that's all we have time to polish 19:32:12 in the worst case I like the way ixxvil last draw looks 19:32:16 one thing about supplemental wallpapers: we gathered lots of images for F15, but after all noone made a selection, I propose we automatically copy them to F16 proposals 19:32:17 like old ancient paper 19:32:28 msourada, +1 19:32:30 how many sketches do we have now? we have (1) jelly fish and sub (2) octopus and gears (3) elephant .... then ixxvil is also working on (4) floating island? 19:32:38 msourada +1 19:32:46 we need to find a volunteer to manage the f16 supplemental wallpapers 19:33:07 it might be cool too, since we have four concepts and 3 (4 soon) sketches from ixxvil, if folks who can do digital painting can each pick one to render 19:33:07 what's manage mean, to those of us who are new? 19:33:20 or we can talk about that when we switch topics 19:33:22 how many sketches is need ? i need more detail in objects 19:33:24 kirkB, i think i did a writeup explaining it, one sec and let me find it 19:33:28 #info (1) jelly fish and sub (2) octopus and gears (3) elephant (4) floating island 19:33:51 octupus and nautilus ( very important) 19:34:15 kirkB, well i can't find the writeup. i will write one up and put it in the howtos section of the wiki 19:34:33 ... with nautilus from book of Verne 19:34:36 kirkB, but the basics: (1) announce the supplemental wallpaper process on planet.fedoraproject.org to try to get submissions, annouce it on deviant art too 19:34:38 #action mizmo will try to make a wallpaper compositions with several daylights 19:34:55 tatica, no im not going to do that 19:35:00 thats not what i was proposing ... 19:35:03 ok 19:35:10 i can do the XML file for the slideshow once the 4 wallpapers are done 19:35:15 but that'll be towards the end of the propcess 19:35:22 ok 19:35:44 kirkB, (2) monitor the submissions wiki page, and if we don't have enough submissions (won't be a problem for f16) solicit more submissions by advertising on lists, twitter, identica, etc 19:36:04 kirkB> IIRC it was: when the time is due, collect votes from design team members on what should be selected, based on them pick the few to be selected, mail their authors that they've been selected, verify license and when licensing is verified "stamp" the final selection so that someone (usually me) can put them into package. 19:36:09 kirkB, (3) at the deadline, start a thread on the design team list so we can vote on which wallpapers should go in 19:36:13 msourada++ 19:37:06 question, will be a design team vote or fedora general vote? 19:38:28 mizmo: we should also let the people around desktop spins know that we'll occupy more of the CD/DVD space if we'll do the slideshow 19:38:42 tatica: vote related to wallpaper feedback? 19:38:48 yup 19:38:50 mizmo: i just landed at rdu 19:39:35 i will read logs; i'm in westford next week if you want to look at fixes, or whatever. :) 19:39:45 * rbergeron will write this evening 19:40:04 msourada, yeh, i dont think it'll be a huge deal though because we've had 4 before 19:40:23 tatica, it should be a design team vote, and i very strongly recommend having it informal 19:40:34 the last time we did supplemental wallpapers we had an informal IRC vote and it went really well 19:40:42 mizmo, at artboard (using comments) 19:40:43 tatica: I believe it was usually discussion on list plus final vote on design team meeting, so basically whoever is present on those has the right to vote :D 19:40:54 msourada, oki :D 19:40:57 tatica, we're not using the artboard for the supplementals 19:41:07 (like artboard) 19:41:17 * tatica corrects herself :$ 19:41:29 yeh then based on the discussion if you can't make the meeting, you can still have a say on the mailing list 19:41:32 i think its the best way 19:41:38 yup 19:41:50 #https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_manage_the_supplemental_wallpaper_process i put together a rough skeleton of the supplemental wallpaper management duties 19:41:53 er 19:41:56 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_manage_the_supplemental_wallpaper_process 19:42:00 we do still need a volunteer for that 19:42:08 mizmo: it's problem if we say it to them to late, unless someone tells them it's gonna be 4x bigger than it is right now, they'll shout when we commit the changes... 19:42:25 msourada, how late do you think we can tell them? 19:42:35 * tatica can take it 19:42:38 msourada, im (maybe sadly) not confident we could have 4 final renderings 19:42:40 supplementary 19:42:45 it depends on folks' interest 19:42:48 okay great tatica 19:42:49 :) 19:42:58 I already did it last release, but I had too many task with the wallpaper 19:43:02 so I didn't do a proper job 19:43:06 yeh please dont overload yourself 19:43:07 * tatica will try to make it better this time 19:43:15 if youd rather work on the wallpaper it might be better to leave supplementals to someone else 19:43:27 I'm not investing too much at wallpaper this time 19:43:31 one thing about managing supplementals is that it's a good task for someone who is interested in artwork, but not confident in their drawing abilities 19:43:42 will it be better to have two people managing wallpaper process? 19:43:42 youre really good at drawing tatica so you might enjoy the wallpaper task better but its up to you 19:43:44 ixxvil, is taking the 60% of the job and the team will present several draws 19:43:55 finalzone, i think that we're going to have 4 sketches (we have 3 now) 19:44:00 mizmo, I don't have internet at nights... so I will use that improductive time :D 19:44:08 finalzone, so i think maybe a good approach for the wallpapers is to have 4 people, one for each one 19:44:10 mizmo: For them it's better when previously occupied space is freed than the other way round. I'm not sure, but we should probably tell them as soon as possible that we want to do it, but that there is possibility that we won't... 19:44:15 * tatica takes her light saber!!! 19:44:16 or two people, each digitally painting 2 of the 4 19:44:30 msourada, okay cool. how do you think is the best way to tell them? 19:44:33 * mizmo a little intimidated :( 19:44:43 well, we only have 15 min 19:44:45 tatica, lol no internet makes me very productive 19:45:12 and I will like to talk a little bit about the rest of things that envolves the design team besides a Release Artwork 19:45:30 "2 of the 4" very low ... 19:45:39 maybe all of us will work in some way (or not) with this release 19:45:49 the others things we had on the plate for F16 was the Anaconda UX redesign, the ABRT UX redesign 19:45:49 but maybe those who read the meeting log wont 19:45:50 so 19:46:19 like a reminder 19:46:21 kirkB, where are you at with the ABRT UX redesign? what do you have so far, and where would you ideally see yourself if it was finished? 19:46:21 mizmo: mail to their mailing list should do the trick for gnome and xfce, for kde we could probably just tell it (either via irc or mail) to kevin, rex or jiri 19:46:39 msourada, okay i can take care of the mailing then 19:46:55 msourada, what about lxde? 19:47:01 remember that we also have some tickets open 19:47:09 mizmo: one person per wallpaper sounds logical 19:47:21 https://fedorahosted.org/design-team/report/1 19:47:42 mizmo: at the moment we don't show up our wallpapers in lxde's bg chooser, and I have no idea how to do that. Plus, lxde is managed by the same people as xfce 19:47:49 and also some event where we can help with t-shirt, banners, posters.. etc (Fudcon, release parties, etc) 19:47:55 msourada, ah okay cool so if xfce knows we're good 19:48:21 #topic open floor 19:48:37 mizmo, the usability review is going to be a document that includes recommendations, some mockups, and some rationale 19:48:55 I've finished with the main screen, and am now going through the submission process 19:49:02 mizmo: also, keep in mind that while for gnome it means dynamic wallpaper, for KDE probably four wallpapers (but all included by default, I'm not sure if KDE supports some kind of slide-show) and for xfce four wallpapers included by default. 19:49:23 kirkB, by finished with main screen, do you mean you did a heuristic review of the main screen? or a mockup? 19:49:33 both 19:49:39 kirkB, oh okay great 19:49:50 in the end the recommendations were enough to merit a mockup to help illustrate the points 19:49:54 kirkB, do you have a writeup of the heuristic review results too, or did you just implicitly include that in the mockups 19:50:24 not sure I'd call it a heurisitc review, as I haven't idnetified any specific heurisitics I used - just judgement (hence including my rationale) 19:50:36 kirkB, ahh okie 19:50:44 no, mokcup doesn't include rationale 19:50:48 kirkB, so rather than review everything, then mockup everything, you're doing review+mockup screen-by-screen 19:50:51 the two are embedded in the odt report doc 19:51:11 so maybe it would make sense to set milestones screen-by-screen 19:51:19 like your first milestone would be the main screen, and you completed that 19:51:24 I did an initial review of all screens, took notes. Now creating a report that includes recommendations and am putting rationale in too, to support the recommendations and help explain where I'm coming from 19:51:35 ...about working with wallpapers and blender 3D ... 19:51:48 ahh okay, so really you just have to mock up the remaining screens besides the main screen, and you're complete? 19:52:00 it is possible to set up "artboard" to put .blend files 19:52:01 ? 19:52:16 yes - will only mokcup if there is a need though. Don't want to mockup if there's just a small change on a screen, for example. 19:52:39 is more easy to read by the team 19:52:42 mythcat, no, it doesn't support them :( but you could post a low res render, and attach to the artboard render a .blend on fedorapeople.org 19:53:04 kirkB, okay cool, so of the 100% ideal finished state, just gut feeling, where do you think you're at percentage wise? 19:53:12 So tasks remaining: 1) take review notes and expand into recommendations/rationale in report 2) mockup any screens/interactions needed to support the recommendations 19:53:20 mizmo , i need to share .blend file to the blender users 19:53:40 is hard to put on the internet ... 19:53:44 mythcat, yeh so post the .blend to your fedorapeople.org space, then post a render of the blend to the artboard, and paste the fedorapeople.org/blend URL on the render 19:53:48 40% - the submission process was spread across a lot of screens and the preferences config is a bit that needs help too. 19:54:02 I suspect a couple more mockups, though that's just a suspicion 19:54:05 ok , let's try then 19:54:20 kirkB, oh okay great 19:54:30 kirkB, so we could do your #1 and #2 as milestones 19:54:38 yes 19:54:43 then i guess passing the report over to the developers would be milestone #3 19:54:49 well 19:54:52 http://www.renderweb.org/index.html 19:54:54 maybe showing to the design team first for review 19:55:07 so #1 review notes expansion => recommendations/rationale 19:55:12 #2 any needed mockups 19:55:17 if I had a magic wand, I'd get their feedback pronto to make sure what I'm doing is helpful. Hate to run through this to give them something they look at with a puzzled expression on their faces 19:55:17 #3 share with design team for review / feedback 19:55:21 #4 pass over to developers 19:55:31 kirkB, if you want i can try to engage with them right now 19:55:38 are they being responsive or do you need me to poke them for ya? 19:56:10 I'm in #abrt right now and haven't seen any response to my question I posted a few weeks back. 19:56:30 okay ill try to poke them and see what's up 19:56:31 I could be pestering them more, but only recently finished the mockup and wanted that before getting their feedback 19:56:39 what is the renderweb , tatica ? 19:56:45 I think getting their feedback on what I have for the first screen would be very useful 19:56:58 cool, and the link to that screen is on the ticket right? 19:57:03 mythcat, is a net to render files through FB 19:57:13 not yet, I can upload the prelim report to the ticket if that's the way to go 19:57:15 i hate FB 19:57:19 * tatica too 19:57:21 thanks 19:57:23 kirkB, yeh definitely! posting stuff early and often is always a good idea 19:57:25 mythcat, but is a clever idea to render with a farm 19:57:29 ive love to take a look at what you've got too 19:57:35 agreed - and the best way to do that is the ticket? 19:57:41 kirkB, yep i think so, ticket++ 19:57:45 ok, ticket it is then 19:57:49 so based on these milestones we just discussed 19:57:58 fill the ticket! but reply some! :D 19:58:06 ill try to talk schedule with the abrt folks and see where they are thinking stuff will line up on the calendar 19:58:20 I will try with something else :) 19:58:21 and try to take a first stab at some reasonable dates on the milestones for you 19:58:27 sonud reasonable (and helpful) kirkB? 19:59:09 yes, very 19:59:13 yay :) 19:59:15 cool 19:59:27 the other thing left to discuss was anaconda UX 19:59:34 how are you doing gejoreni? 19:59:40 doing well 20:00:26 gejoreni_, i read your plan for user testing this morning - it looks great 20:00:27 i saw the anaconda UX mockup, interesting 20:00:36 gejoreni, what i would suggest as next steps are: 20:00:54 great, I think it will provide a lot of great insight 20:00:56 gejoreni, #1 post it to the wiki, create a new page under the Anaconda UX page (maybe 'User testing plan') 20:01:07 gejoreni, #2 go do it! :) 20:01:13 do you blog at all gejoreni? 20:01:27 oh maybe #3 go do it, #2 let's show it to the anaconda guys and just get them on the same page 20:01:29 not very good at it, planning to start 20:01:35 our meeting is over :( 20:01:44 already? 20:01:46 gejoreni, kk, if you want, i can blog your testing plan for you, so it shows up on planet.fedoraproject.org 20:01:50 yeah, lol 20:01:58 I will just end it "formally" and we can keep the topic 20:02:00 oka? 20:02:00 Initial report is up in ticket - any and all feedback is welcome: https://fedorahosted.org/design-team/ticket/180 20:02:03 gejoreni, and get you some feedback, so you dont have to rush into getting comfortable bloggable 20:02:06 tatica, actually dont 20:02:11 tatica, id really appreciate this discussion being in the logs 20:02:15 ok 20:02:17 thanks :) 20:02:23 kirkB++! thanks!!!! 20:02:32 kirkB, do you mind if i blog about your efforts on planet.fedoraproject.org? 20:02:42 tatica , maybe team will make a render farm in the future :) 20:02:43 not at all 20:02:46 yay :) 20:02:46 does Fedora have a blog server? 20:02:54 gejoreni_, we used to, it's getting shut down :( 20:03:02 gejoreni, what i do is i use wordpress.com 20:03:17 then when you log into your fedorapeople.org shell account, you can create a file there that will add your wordpress blog to planet.fedoraproject.org 20:03:20 (make sense?) 20:03:47 mizmo, I'm not an official member of the design team yet, the ABRT review is my first task 20:03:47 mizmo, my next step is to write a formal plan with scripts etc. 20:04:13 kirkB, ah you've done enough work already though, i would be happy to add you 20:04:14 I will upload that 20:04:37 excellent, thanks 20:04:38 gejoreni, well i think what you wrote up in your email to me would be a good first post though 20:04:57 ok, first post it is :) 20:04:59 gejoreni, cuz you'd want to share it with the anaconda guys and it'd be good to have in the wiki 20:05:09 ok 20:05:10 let me get you the right url to post it on 20:05:31 question about anaconda ux related to 20:05:35 http://linuxgrrl.com/fedora-ux/Projects/Anaconda/Prototypes/hubandspoke-preview8.png 20:06:04 gejoreni, okay post it here: https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Anaconda/UX_Redesign/Testing_Plan&action=edit&redlink=1 20:06:16 is there a consideration for say multiple user? The mockup seems to apply to single user 20:06:33 gejoreni, once you have it posted, i think we should figure out a time to storm #anaconda and bring it up to them 20:06:35 bye ... 20:06:56 gejoreni, if they are agreeable then i think that's a good time to dive into the script (make sense?) 20:06:58 ok, I will upload it tonight 20:06:59 sorry , but I have work 20:07:04 mythcat, sure see ya 20:07:06 (still at work now) 20:07:10 bye mythcat 20:07:11 see ya ... 20:07:26 finalzone, well how we do multiple users today, is that you create one user when you install, then you add additional users once you've got the machine installed and booted 20:07:32 there is an accounts dialog where you can add new users 20:07:47 finalzone, do you think it would be better to allow multiple user creation during install? 20:07:51 * mizmo not sure how common that is 20:08:04 kirkB, working on adding you to the group now in the account system 20:08:32 mizmo, quite the multi tasker 20:08:33 mizmo, multiple user creation is better on post installation 20:08:56 kirkB, you're in :) 20:09:09 finalzone, okay cool 20:09:25 I believe Ubuntu provides the ability to create additional user accounts during the install process (or they did last time I installed Ubuntu). I think Windows does as well. 20:09:27 gejoreni, lol 20:09:49 kirkB, Windows does that on post installation 20:09:50 I'm impressed 20:09:58 oh like during firstboot 20:10:03 yup 20:10:07 The steps required to create multiple accounts post-installation - are they much more complex and time consuming than if we simply added an optional step during install? 20:10:27 kirkB, nope, we'd probably use the same exact dialog in the installer 20:10:34 its really easy to add new users post install 20:11:12 my (potentially extremely paranoid) worry, is if you let people create multiple accounts during install... 20:11:21 they might forget they created additional accounts... for a really long time 20:11:35 once i set up a 'demo' account on my laptop, i totally forgot about it, and the password was 'foobar' 20:11:36 I guess it comes down to frequency - how often is someone installing and wanting multiple users? If frequent then I'd suggest during install. If not, then post. 20:11:43 it had ssh access and everything o_O 20:12:00 what about setup xguest/ 20:12:03 ? 20:12:13 i could see someone setting up a family computer wanting multiple users, but 'family computer' isn't really our target audience right now 20:12:39 I can ask some of these questions during the ethn 20:12:40 so i wouldn't see it being a task desirable to many users (although for the family set, it would be frequent) 20:13:04 gejoreni++ that would be excellent. add a question item for whether or not they typically have mutliple accounts on their machine, and if so what for 20:13:19 mizmo, if you have a list of good questions like this, throw them at me and I can try to include them 20:13:22 finalzone, xguest... is that the selinux sandbox account? 20:13:53 mizmo, yes. I found it useful for a demo presentation 20:13:54 gejoreni, sure! what we could do too (which always, always gathers a lot of good feedback) is of course a blog post, once you've got an initial set of questions, we can post them to planet fedora and see what folks suggest in the comments 20:14:18 mizmo: once you install that package, it automatically create a guest account 20:14:36 gejoreni, for example when i posted the gnome shell usability test plan i must hvae gotten 100 comments of suggestions lol http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/gnome-shell-usability-test-plan/ 20:14:57 okay so we have two question ideas for you gejoreni: 20:15:05 i imagine the use for some internet cafe 20:15:17 very cool, thanks for the link 20:15:21 #idea ask target users about their systems and multiple accounts. do they have multiple accounts? if so, how do they dole them out? 20:15:40 #idea ask target users if they let anyone borrow their computer. would a 'guest account' be useful for them? 20:16:00 hope I'm not breaking your discussion too much, but: I noticed the "destination" slide is a bit too simple. Looking at it, I'd guess it would totally wipe out my partitioning (two /'s, one /home, one /boot)... I really like to have it to still have some "custom partitioning" kind of button 20:16:03 finalzone, ah definitely 20:16:14 msourada, that section isn't anywhere near finished :) 20:16:24 mizmo: ah, cool 20:16:27 msourada, storage selection is going ot be a multi-page wizard most likely 20:16:37 it's the hardest section so i haven't really started yet lol, finished the easy ones first 20:17:09 gejoreni, do you have any questions or do you think you have a good direction? 20:17:59 I am good 20:18:02 yourself? 20:18:45 well, on my side, im hoping to have more time this week to dive into the storage portion of the mockups like i was just telling msourada :) 20:18:54 i was thinking a multi page wizard for that section since it's pretty complex 20:18:58 mizmo, would the blog be a good place to call for anaconda related questions 20:19:18 i am going to talk to the gnome developers hopefully this week too and get their feedback on what we have so far 20:19:36 gejoreni, blog to ask users the ethnographic questions? 20:19:47 no 20:19:58 to have people suggest questions 20:20:08 i.e. how many users 20:20:10 sorry 20:21:22 mizmo: an idea: if there's already existing layout, hide the difference between physical partitions (sans lvm-initialized) and virtual (lvm) from the user (unless he wants to play with the layout himself) 20:21:27 gejoreni, ohhhh yes 20:21:29 gejoreni, absolutely 20:21:51 gejoreni, so kind of similar to the link i showed you - i posted a set of gnome usability test tasks, and asked for feedback and additional task suggestions 20:22:04 gejoreni, in the same way you (or i, whatever you'd like) could post an initial set of ethnographic questions for anaconda 20:22:13 gejoreni, and ask folks reading the blog for suggestions on additional questions 20:22:15 gejoreni++ 20:22:31 mizmo: basically, if possible, handling partitions directly instead of physical media might be less confusing, I believe. 20:23:26 mizmo, ok, great. I think this will be a lot of fun. 20:24:33 msourada, yeh, making it as simple as possible to understand and hiding that virtual vs physical complexity i think it a good idea 20:24:36 gejoreni, yay :) 20:24:47 mizmo: also, users from windows are used to refer to C:, D:, F:. etc., not Seagate Barracuda 500GB, ... :-D 20:24:53 gejoreni, so do you think you will set up a blog? i am happy to help you connect it to planet fedora 20:25:12 I will get started tonight, I will probably send you another update, however, from there out you should be able to just follow the blog unless I need something specific 20:26:02 * finalzone thinks C: D: F: is so achaic to make users look dumb 20:26:05 gejoreni, okay great 20:26:17 gejoreni, it's important to connect the blog to planet fedora though otherwise nobody will see it 20:26:23 mizmo, are there instructions on how to connect blogs to PF? I have my own that I'd be interested in posting some items to PF ... 20:26:41 kirkB, absolutely, let me find them... it's basically ssh into fedorapeople.org, then making a .planet file 20:26:42 one sec 20:26:43 Yes, that would be nice 20:26:45 such as the ABRT usability assessment stuff 20:27:08 can you choose to post only some of the posts from the blog? or is it all of them? 20:27:23 finalzone: LOL, it's retarded, I like the *nix side better, but maybe more confusing to girl scouts ;-) 20:27:28 mizmo, good talking. If there is nothing else urgent I have to go 20:27:51 mizmo, tatica check 20:27:57 artboard 20:28:11 finalzone: I was basically just supporting the idea that the basic building "block" is partition, not physical harddisk 20:28:29 ixxvil, I'm your #1 fan 20:28:37 kirkB, yep you can do only some of them 20:28:40 * tatica names herself " ixxvil padawan" 20:28:52 :D 20:28:53 kirkB, if you use wordpress, you can tag your posts 'fedora' then only post the 'fedora' tag rss feed to planet fedora 20:28:53 kirkb, if you need to throw something against another usability person, feel free to contact me. 20:28:56 gejoreni, sure see you around 20:29:06 i'd like to keep the elephant in that color, and then you guys can color around it maybe? 20:29:18 Girl scouts? that ragdoll idea is still being tossed around? 20:29:33 ixxvil, OMG gorgeous 20:29:36 MarkDude, huh? 20:29:44 * MarkDude maybe should set IRC to highlight GS when it is said 20:29:54 needs any modifications? 20:29:59 gejoreni, thanks! Love to hear your thoughts on the draft I posted when you have some spare time 20:29:59 i drew a map on the right 20:30:05 like an old map style 20:30:12 kirkB, here are all the planet instructions https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Planet#How_to_join_the_Planet 20:30:19 i love the map ixxvil 20:30:21 mizmo, MarkDude, that was aimed at me :-D Well, I liked it, so I still use it :-D 20:30:23 sweet 20:30:25 mizmo, thanks! 20:30:37 kirkB, let me know if you need any help with them 20:30:40 sooo tatica mizmo guess im done with the elephant 20:30:50 i'll start on the floating island tonight 20:30:55 mizmo, msourada dont worry - no tirade here 20:30:58 msourada, i really take the girl scouts comments personally 20:31:03 would appreciate not seeing them 20:31:04 ixxvil, very cool 20:31:12 ixxvil, :D 20:31:15 gejoreni_: thx 20:31:15 its a charged phrase 20:31:22 for me at least 20:31:25 on the map there's fedora btw 20:31:26 :P 20:31:34 working your ass off on something and then having it the laughing stock of people you thought were your friends = very charged 20:31:35 kirkb, my email is gejoreni@gmail.com 20:32:56 btw the details are not very visible there, so if you get stuck let me know 20:33:21 mizmo: you shouldn't. Everything two-word thing describing a certain group of users is bound to fail when taken objectively... I don't think, nicu wanted to offend someone, he just needed some metaphor. And some of us actually liked that metaphor... 20:33:50 msourada, maybe use the phrase scouts 20:34:03 that would include my nephew also 20:34:09 not JUST MY NIECE 20:34:20 msourada, even if it's not meant to offend, when it is continued when i made it clear that it is very hurtful - then it's offending purposefully 20:34:22 if the point is about children 20:34:36 make the point about children 20:34:41 yes! 20:34:44 gender should have nothing to do with it 20:34:53 because females are not less capable 20:35:04 MarkDude: that's way too short. Anyway, the original point was "users who know next to nothing about computers" 20:35:04 there is ZERO reason for it to be only women/girls 20:35:18 * MarkDude suggests new users 20:35:37 * MarkDude assumes you would just say Grandma when talking about old people 20:35:46 as oppesed to grandparents 20:36:01 Language means stuff 20:36:14 is this going into the meetingbot meeting minutes? 20:36:21 The use of girl/women in relation 20:36:30 not really related to this meeting 20:36:50 msourada, girl scouts do not know 'next to nothing about computers' 20:36:55 mizmo, can we close the meeting? 20:36:57 to not experienced people- assumes that men/boys are more capable 20:36:59 yeh it's a good idea now 20:37:00 mizmo: females are not less capable, that's true, yet, in certain aspects they are better than males and vice versa, on average. There are exceptions, but how do you explain that there is e.g. no female mathematician so far awarded with Field's medal... 20:37:02 we're pretty much wrapped up 20:37:04 #endmeeting