18:09:34 <mizmo> #startmeeting design-team
18:09:34 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue May 22 18:09:34 2018 UTC.
18:09:34 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:09:34 <zodbot> The chair is mizmo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:09:34 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:09:34 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'design-team'
18:09:34 <fm-design> meetbot.meeting.start -- duffy started meeting "design-team" in #fedora-design
18:10:12 <mleonova> ugh
18:10:19 <mizmo> puiterwijk fixed him for us :)
18:10:19 <mleonova> I mean yay
18:10:32 <mleonova> =))
18:10:32 <mizmo> ok should we talk about thelittlewonder's project first?
18:10:59 <mleonova> sure! Do you have more background knowledge?
18:11:14 <mleonova> I'm so new to it I feel I need time to catch up
18:11:52 <mizmo> i read the backscroll, and have seen the test before
18:12:04 <mizmo> i'm looking at the ticket now, the main question i have is whether or not the app is for fedora *users* or fedora *contributors*
18:12:35 <mizmo> it seems user oriented (which is fine, just important to know)
18:13:04 <thelittlewonder[> The main target audience is fedora community - both users (magazine+ask feature) as well as the contributors (Fedo Cal is there).
18:13:31 <mleonova> looks like it, since community is the first page
18:13:51 <mleonova> previously all 4 parts were sort of equal
18:14:08 <mizmo> im looking at the screenshots on the ticket, hold on
18:14:54 <mizmo> ok im looking at the marvel screenshots now
18:15:04 <thelittlewonder[> The main target audience is fedora community - both users (magazine+ask feature) as well as the contributors (Fedo Cal is there).
18:15:04 <thelittlewonder[> Also, Contributors can login using FAS to get notifications.
18:15:09 <akshayg96> I was having network issue.
18:15:38 <mizmo> it seems like users are more strongly targeted though
18:15:40 * akshayg96 checking fedora app prototype
18:15:49 <mizmo> eg if it was contributor centric you might have pagure ticket integration, team spaces, that sort of thing
18:16:21 <mizmo> but this is a good set of resources for a user, who is curious about where fedora is going, but not necessarily a member of a team with a task load, more an observer
18:16:41 <mizmo> or at least maybe centered on a contributor who is a bit more casual
18:17:11 <mizmo> the marvel mockups show everything in gray scale, is that intentional?
18:17:38 <thelittlewonder[> but this is a good set of resources for a user, who is curious about where fedora is going, but not necessarily a member of a team with a task load, more an observer
18:17:39 <thelittlewonder[> Umm, yeah. As a contributor, You can add upcoming events from FedoCal to your calendars, and get notifications from fedmsg.
18:18:06 <mizmo> what do fedmsg notifications look like?
18:18:11 <thelittlewonder[> the marvel mockups show everything in gray scale, is that intentional?
18:18:12 <thelittlewonder[> Yes, I thought it's better to decide the architecture and flow first and then work on the visual design of the application
18:18:32 <mizmo> for magazine, it seems read only - eg theres no comment / interaction kind of management
18:18:37 <mizmo> same for ask, its a very light integration
18:18:48 <mizmo> but maybe it doesn't provide an api to integrate more deeply?
18:19:31 <mizmo> e.g., rahter than have different fedora apps split across tabs, it would be good to have a unified notification system that's personalized to the logged in user, so you could see replies to comments / articles you wrote on fedora magazine in the same notification feed as upvotes / comments on your fedora ask postings, and fedmsg notifications
18:19:43 <thelittlewonder[> what do fedmsg notifications look like?
18:19:44 <thelittlewonder[> There's another Backend Guy working on the fedmsg part. This application is part of GSoC and he will start working on the fedmsg part next month, So I am yet to figure out about what exact information will he be able to share with me
18:19:49 <mizmo> fedmsg is a really noisy fire hose of data, so you have to be pretty careful / deliberate how you display it
18:20:09 <mizmo> i'm worried this is a little too app focused and not focused on user workflow
18:20:24 <mizmo> fedmsg notifications span all of the various apps in fedora infrastructure, there's a spec for them, one sec
18:21:00 <thelittlewonder[> for magazine, it seems read only - eg theres no comment / interaction kind of management
18:21:01 <thelittlewonder[> Yup. The API is read only. So we open the in-app browser and if you are logged in using FAS, you can comment and share stuff. Also, using in-app browser we can do offline reading feature.
18:21:20 <thelittlewonder[> e.g., rahter than have different fedora apps split across tabs, it would be good to have a unified notification system that's personalized to the logged in user, so you could see replies to comments / articles you wrote on fedora magazine in the same notification feed as upvotes / comments on your fedora ask postings, and fedmsg notifications
18:21:21 <thelittlewonder[> Sure. sounds good. Will keep in mind.
18:21:51 <mizmo> still looking for fedmsg api / examples, but you can join #fedmsg i think and see messages as they go across the bus
18:22:10 <mizmo> is there value to the app if it's just bookmarks to a webbrowser?
18:22:16 <thelittlewonder[> still looking for fedmsg api / examples, but you can join #fedmsg i think and see messages as they go across the bus
18:22:17 <thelittlewonder[> Sure.
18:22:27 <thelittlewonder[> Is there anything you find confusing/ not clear?
18:22:27 <mizmo> do you think users would want a deeper integration?
18:22:32 <thelittlewonder[> is there value to the app if it's just bookmarks to a webbrowser?
18:22:33 <thelittlewonder[> It bookmarks to the app, not the browser.
18:22:55 <mizmo> i see tabs - home seems to be a front end for
18:23:05 <mizmo> fedora community blog
18:23:40 <mizmo> the ask tab, seems to be a front end for ask.fpo. so i expect it to be a mobile app experience with ask, but instead if you click on an article it launches it in a web browser, which doesn't seem to add value
18:24:07 <mizmo> explore seems to do the same for fedora magazine
18:24:27 <mizmo> i dont see integration in the calendar with the user's calendar so you could add an event to your calendar, get reminders on your phone, etc
18:24:51 <thelittlewonder[> do you think users would want a deeper integration?
18:24:51 <mizmo> so its a bit unclear to me what kind of workflow this is designed for
18:24:51 <thelittlewonder[> I personally wanted a better integration and not an in-app web view, but the API and time at hand (the backend guy has proposed separate features in his GSoC project) limits the process, so we will have to launch it with a in-app browser it seems. But we will surely try to make it more native in the next versions.
18:25:31 <mizmo> it looks like you can read in from the api if not write
18:25:50 <mizmo> even if you can read only, you could still provide a deeper integration here -
18:25:59 <thelittlewonder[> i dont see integration in the calendar with the user's calendar so you could add an event to your calendar, get reminders on your phone, etc
18:26:00 <mizmo> eg with the calendar / ics files from fedocal.... you could provide a button per team to add team meetings to your personal calendar on thep hone
18:26:00 <thelittlewonder[> The idea is to open the Google Calendar once you click the "Add to Calendar" button. This feature is present in the current version as well.
18:26:31 <mizmo> so you are assuming users are using google calendar? you can't call up the native / default calendar on the user's phone (google or not?)
18:27:02 <thelittlewonder[> it looks like you can read in from the api if not write
18:27:03 <thelittlewonder[> Yup, but we need to use in app browser to leverage caching to allow Bookmarking (Proposed feature by the backend intern).
18:27:08 <mizmo> im pretty sure pagure on the web opens up an ics file, not gcal
18:27:41 <thelittlewonder[> so you are assuming users are using google calendar? you can't call up the native / default calendar on the user's phone (google or not?)
18:27:42 <thelittlewonder[> My bad. I assume it opens the native calendar. I have only google calendar installed :P hence.
18:27:55 <mizmo> "Yup, but we need to use in app browser to leverage caching to allow Bookmarking (Proposed feature by the backend intern)." <= i don't grok this. you need caching to allow bookmarking? bookmarking in the app? or in the phone's browser? why does that require caching?
18:28:35 <mizmo> ok that's good. it's hard to evaluate the interface because nothing happens when you click on the mockup, even if you had it set up in marvel so it popped up a little box that said, "an ICS file for the meeting you clicked add to calendar on will pop up in your phone's default calendar client" <= or whatever. so when someone is walking through the mockups they understand what will happen
18:28:50 <mizmo> unless you're just looking for feedback on the *visuals* and not the *interaction*
18:29:26 <mizmo> just so it's clear where i'm coming from -
18:29:45 <mizmo> my assumption is that this app is going to be used primarily by a volunteer community member / contributor or an end user of fedora.
18:30:39 <thelittlewonder[> "Yup, but we need to use in app browser to leverage caching to allow Bookmarking (Proposed feature by the backend intern)." <= i don't grok this. you need caching to allow bookmarking? bookmarking in the app? or in the phone's browser? why does that require caching?
18:30:39 <mizmo> because they are volunteers / have other things they work on, it would be useful to remind them of meetings they have to go to, tasks in their queue (eg tickets they're working on, responses to messages they've written, questions people are asking them, etc.), and general news about fedora
18:30:40 <thelittlewonder[> Umm. Actually, I am handling the Design and Front End part of the app. During the last meeting, when the issue of In-App Browser came up, the back end guy mentioned we need to use the in-app browser to leverage caching in order to implement the bookmark feature. something like that. So we had to agree on the in-app browser part.
18:30:59 <thelittlewonder[> ok that's good. it's hard to evaluate the interface because nothing happens when you click on the mockup, even if you had it set up in marvel so it popped up a little box that said, "an ICS file for the meeting you clicked add to calendar on will pop up in your phone's default calendar client" <= or whatever. so when someone is walking through the mockups they understand what will happen
18:31:00 <thelittlewonder[> Makes sense, will keep that in mind. Thanks.
18:31:37 <mizmo> based on the mockups, it looks like the calendar tab has some promise towards that end. but it seems pretty news / static info heavy, without a lot of task-oriented stuff. it's more app-oriented than task oriented, and the apps don't really include the apps where contributors work (like pagure, or the mailing lists, or the build system / update system / etc)
18:31:58 <mizmo> ", the back end guy mentioned we need to use the in-app browser to leverage caching in order to implement the bookmark feature. " <= this doesn't make any sense :-/
18:32:18 <thelittlewonder[> because they are volunteers / have other things they work on, it would be useful to remind them of meetings they have to go to, tasks in their queue (eg tickets they're working on, responses to messages they've written, questions people are asking them, etc.), and general news about fedora
18:32:18 <thelittlewonder[> Umm. Yeah. What would you recommend, we can implement in order to provide some value to the core contributors?
18:32:44 <thelittlewonder[> ", the back end guy mentioned we need to use the in-app browser to leverage caching in order to implement the bookmark feature. " <= this doesn't make any sense :-/
18:32:45 <thelittlewonder[> I will discuss with him and let you know. Maybe I am messing up something :P
18:32:51 <mizmo> i think for volunteer contributors, they really need a single, filtered feed of information relevant to them personally to be able to keep up
18:33:20 <mizmo> to have to search for new content across tabs is too much effort
18:33:50 <mizmo> the FAS integration is hidden behind the ... more
18:34:08 <mizmo> i think the link to the user's FAS account should be more obvious
18:34:22 <mizmo> based on their FAS, the calendar tab should only showmeetings for teams they are a member of by default. with a button to view other teams.
18:34:32 <thelittlewonder[> i think for volunteer contributors, they really need a single, filtered feed of information relevant to them personally to be able to keep up
18:34:32 <mizmo> ask is interesting as a tab if you're a user who is going to be asking for help / troubleshootoing problems when running fedora. if you're contributing to a fedora team that isn't the ask.fpo team, the ask tab isn't super useful
18:34:33 <thelittlewonder[> Yes. That makes sense. Maybe Show 2 different views? for logged in and not logged in users? Since volunteer contributors will be logged in most of the times.
18:34:55 <thelittlewonder[> based on their FAS, the calendar tab should only showmeetings for teams they are a member of by default. with a button to view other teams.
18:34:55 <thelittlewonder[> Brilliant Idea :D
18:34:56 <mizmo> if you're not a contributor, do you care about the fedora team meetings / fedocal at all?
18:35:55 <thelittlewonder[> if you're not a contributor, do you care about the fedora team meetings / fedocal at all?
18:35:56 <thelittlewonder[> Umm. Interesting. You gave me a lot of feedback to think about.
18:36:00 <mizmo> if you are a contributor and have upcoming meetings, can you launch the IRC channels the meetings are in with a click from the calendar entry in the app? you could link to the matrix room and have it offer to install riot if the user doesn't already have an irc client configured?
18:36:22 <mizmo> that would be a huge win. go to check what meetings are coming up, see there's one in five minutes, click on the button, and the channel pops up
18:36:29 <mizmo> would save time and effort for volunteer contributors
18:37:05 <mizmo> *even better* if you missed the meeting.... show the past week's worth of meetings you may have missed, have a link to the meetbot log
18:37:19 <thelittlewonder[> if you are a contributor and have upcoming meetings, can you launch the IRC channels the meetings are in with a click from the calendar entry in the app? you could link to the matrix room and have it offer to install riot if the user doesn't already have an irc client configured?
18:37:20 <thelittlewonder[> Interesting Idea. Thanks. Need to check if the API returns the IRC channel links to the fedocal events.
18:37:30 <mizmo> it should, there is definitely a field for meeting location in IRC on pagure
18:37:49 <mizmo> if you need to convert the channel to a matrix room ID there's a progammtic way to do that
18:37:54 <thelittlewonder[> *even better* if you missed the meeting.... show the past week's worth of meetings you may have missed, have a link to the meetbot log
18:37:55 <thelittlewonder[> Yup, a2batic suggested that last night. Again need to check the API if it provides the minutes.
18:38:22 <thelittlewonder[> it should, there is definitely a field for meeting location in IRC on pagure
18:38:22 <mizmo> even if the app api doesn't provide the minutes, the fedmsg for the meeting provides the meeting minutes link
18:38:23 <thelittlewonder[> Alright. We can definitely add that then. :)
18:39:17 <thelittlewonder[> even if the app api doesn't provide the minutes, the fedmsg for the meeting provides the meeting minutes link
18:39:18 <thelittlewonder[> Oh yeah. It does. This can be integrated as well then I think.
18:39:50 <mizmo> more > bookmarks. what is that? i would never click on that
18:40:08 <mizmo> rather than have social hidden on the ... more i would integrate it more
18:40:21 <mizmo> but the social stuff - is really more user-focused. the app would be more streamlined if you made a stronger call between user and contributor i think
18:41:25 <thelittlewonder[> mizmo: Another thing, I will work on the visual design of the app this week, in addition to refining this. I will follow the guidelines mentioned here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Logo/UsageGuidelines . Is there anything else I need to take care of?
18:41:47 <thelittlewonder[> but the social stuff - is really more user-focused. the app would be more streamlined if you made a stronger call between user and contributor i think
18:41:47 <mizmo> those are the logo usage guidelines, they aren't really app visual design guidelines
18:41:49 <thelittlewonder[> Yeah, will discuss it with the project admins tomorrow. Thanks for the idea :)
18:41:52 <mizmo> we dont really have that formalized, although i had been making an attempt a while back, one sec
18:42:05 <thelittlewonder[> those are the logo usage guidelines, they aren't really app visual design guidelines
18:42:05 <thelittlewonder[> There are Font and Color guidelines at the bottom of the article.
18:42:14 <mizmo> https://docs.pagure.org/patternlab/   this is more for web than mobile and is incomplete
18:42:14 <fm-design> meetbot.meeting.item.link -- duffy linked to more information in the "design-team" meeting in #fedora-design: "https://docs.pagure.org/patternlab/   this is more for web than mobile and is incomplete" https://docs.pagure.org/patternlab/
18:42:41 <mizmo> thelittlewonder those arent meant for web app design those are meant for collateral design. the best source for fedora web app design guidance is to look at the fedora-bootstrap css
18:42:56 <mizmo> if you use fedora-bootstrap you'll be mostly all right
18:43:02 <mizmo> https://pagure.io/fedora-bootstrap
18:43:02 <fm-design> meetbot.meeting.item.link -- duffy linked to more information in the "design-team" meeting in #fedora-design: "https://pagure.io/fedora-bootstrap"
18:43:30 <thelittlewonder[> thelittlewonder those arent meant for web app design those are meant for collateral design. the best source for fedora web app design guidance is to look at the fedora-bootstrap css
18:43:31 <thelittlewonder[> Oh Okay. Thank you :-)
18:44:27 <mizmo> thelittlewonder what is your timeline for this
18:44:46 <thelittlewonder[> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:A2batic/Draft/Abhishek_Fedora_App_GSoC_2018
18:44:46 <fm-design> meetbot.meeting.item.link -- thelittlewonder[ linked to more information in the "design-team" meeting in #fedora-design: "https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:A2batic/Draft/Abhishek_Fedora_App_GSoC_2018"
18:44:56 <thelittlewonder[> Here's an informal timeline
18:45:12 <mizmo> who is your mentor?
18:45:29 <thelittlewonder[> a2batic (Kanika Murarka)
18:45:43 <mizmo> are you coding this? i didnt think gsoc supported UX design?
18:46:49 <mizmo> (if they do that is good news!)
18:46:55 <thelittlewonder[> I will redesign the app, and then code the front end part
18:47:09 <thelittlewonder[> 2 weeks of design and rest 10-11 for coding and stuff.
18:47:20 <mizmo> that's a bit slanted, heh, but that's ok.
18:47:29 <mizmo> since you are short on time, particularly for the UX design, this is what i would recommend -
18:48:01 <mizmo> it's better to get a smaller scope done really well, than too wide a scope partially implemented, if you want people to use the app
18:48:06 <mizmo> definitely choose between user, and contributor
18:48:16 <mizmo> if you choose user, you have a wider base of potential app users to call on. you don't have to worry about FAS integration.
18:48:46 <mizmo> if you choose contributor, you have a richer set of APIs and interactions to work with, but your target audience for the app is much smaller and they are hard to get on board with new workflows (trust me ive tried)
18:49:06 <mizmo> hey wait a minute
18:49:16 <mizmo> the quant-ux version is different than the marvel version, which one is the latest? the marvel?
18:49:36 <thelittlewonder[> yup, the marvel one
18:49:48 <thelittlewonder[> i simplified few things.
18:50:11 <mizmo> ok,
18:50:27 <mizmo> so if you choose to focus on the user community -
18:50:33 <mizmo> the key functions you want are:
18:51:01 <mizmo> - ask - because they will need / want support. they'll want to be able to ask questions, but even if you cant do that bc of api limitations, they'll want to *search* for problems they're running into. so make search really key, and easy. and maybe the top 10 issues on ask, have those really visible too
18:51:11 <mizmo> - magazine - because it's user-centric / focused content.
18:51:47 <mizmo> - social - have *one* stream, maybe interleave the fedora twitter / community blog / and facebook feeds into one stream
18:52:35 <mizmo> - podcast - if you can do it, have a separate tab for it and let users listen to it right from the app
18:52:53 <mizmo> i would drop the about content - if they're already using fedora they know what it is.
18:53:09 <mizmo> if you choose contributor
18:53:36 <mizmo> - calendar - this is going to be a really easy way to make their lives easier particularly with ical / irc / meetbot integration
18:53:57 <mizmo> - fedmsg feed - requires login - have a filtered view of their personal fedmsg stream, maybe tab it by actions that mention them vs actions they took (because they alrady know what they did but may want to refer to it as a log)
18:54:43 <mizmo> - teams - have a rundown of the teams the person is a member of, maybe in order of how recently they interacted with the team, which you should be able to grok from fedmsg. link to the team mailing list on hyperkitty, the team IRC channel for chat, the team calendar, the team pagure / issue tracker
18:54:55 <mizmo> that would be it
18:55:17 <mizmo> i think those are both within a scope you could knock out a solid design and implementation that would work well enough that users would pick the app up and it'd have clear value
18:55:30 <thelittlewonder[> Thanks a lot for sorting it out for me :-)
18:55:57 <mizmo> does it make sense?
18:56:09 <thelittlewonder[> I have wasted a lot of your time. I guess that’s all from my side, you guys should probably start discussing the tickets.
18:56:10 <thelittlewonder[> Thanks a lot for helping mizmo mleonova
18:56:27 <mizmo> its not a waste at all
18:56:28 <thelittlewonder[> does it make sense?
18:56:28 <thelittlewonder[> Yes, I get that. Will discuss with the admins and the backend guy to rework the timelines.
18:56:46 <mizmo> you needed feedback, right!
18:57:03 <mizmo> ok, who are you working with on the backend?
18:57:08 * a2batic reads
18:57:38 <a2batic> Hi mizmo thelittlewonder[ o/
18:57:48 <mizmo> hey a2batic! :)
18:57:55 <thelittlewonder[> you needed feedback, right!
18:57:56 <thelittlewonder[> Yup! I got a lot ;) Thanks.
18:58:09 <mizmo> maybe a lot more than you were expecting lol :)
18:58:12 <thelittlewonder[> Hi mizmo thelittlewonder[ o/
18:58:12 <thelittlewonder[> 👋
18:58:22 <mizmo> i have a lot of thoughts about this - we did a lot of user research and design for fedora hubs which is a similar kind of concept
18:58:37 <a2batic> mizmo, Thanks for all the pointer :)
18:58:58 <mizmo> but that was over two years... whereas you only have a few weeks
18:59:15 <thelittlewonder[> i have a lot of thoughts about this - we did a lot of user research and design for fedora hubs which is a similar kind of concept
18:59:15 <thelittlewonder[> I would love to know more. ;)
18:59:44 <mizmo> and you have design + implementation to do in only one internship period! (thats what i mean by slanted.... gsoc doesn't seem to give enough time for UX, doesn't allow UX internships)
18:59:49 <mizmo> ok i have to go
18:59:49 <a2batic> yup, we discussed on lot of things that was researched for hubs as well
19:00:21 <mizmo> thelittlewonder - there should be a lot of data here http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/category/fedora/fedora-hubs/ videos and logs and stuff
19:00:25 <mizmo> of the user research process
19:00:34 <mizmo> ok gotta run
19:00:39 <mizmo> ill keep the meeting open if you want to talk more
19:00:41 <mizmo> and ill close before i leave
19:00:44 <thelittlewonder[> Bye! Thanks for the help
19:00:48 <a2batic> Thanks again :)
20:04:00 <mizmo> #endmeeting