14:39:45 #startmeeting 14:39:46 Meeting started Sat Mar 13 14:39:45 2010 UTC. The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:39:48 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 14:39:56 And let me just chair everyone who's in the room... 14:41:10 i heard that there are restrictions on the hotels internet 14:41:30 morning poelcat! 14:41:34 hi 14:41:39 what is the conf #? 14:41:56 poelcat: I don't believe we have that up yet, but when Max returns I'll ask him to start the call. 14:42:02 * mchua does not have magic call-startin' powers 14:42:19 we aren't using fedora talk? 14:42:26 #chair stickster wonderer ke4qqq yn1v poelcat heffer quaid 14:42:26 Current chairs: heffer ke4qqq mchua poelcat quaid stickster wonderer yn1v 14:42:32 #chair rharrison 14:42:32 Current chairs: heffer ke4qqq mchua poelcat quaid rharrison stickster wonderer yn1v 14:42:33 i tried to setup a vpn for fedora contributors once but noone wanted to give me a Fedora CA signed cert for my vpn server 14:43:08 "Fedora -- ssh tunneling is good enough" :D 14:43:14 (people who were just chaired, feel free to chair other people, I'm just doing a rough glance round the room and who's been talking so far) 14:43:19 #topic morning startup 14:43:25 #chair PhrkOnLsh 14:43:26 Current chairs: PhrkOnLsh heffer ke4qqq mchua poelcat quaid rharrison stickster wonderer yn1v 14:43:34 quaid: i recommended dnstunnel.de 14:43:41 We're still doing the "Everyone, get on wireless, get on IRC, call starting up, etc. etc." phase of things. 14:43:45 Also, there are donuts. 14:43:58 poelcat: 2004 14:44:11 I'm on the A3 highway near Würzburg right now 14:44:34 i'd like some donuts :) 14:44:38 moin moin! 14:44:45 or alternatively some beef jerky 14:44:47 moin 14:47:56 Max is going over the in-person logistics - how to get around the RH office (to drinks, coffee, etc.) 14:48:11 #chair rrix 14:48:12 Current chairs: PhrkOnLsh heffer ke4qqq mchua poelcat quaid rharrison rrix stickster wonderer yn1v 14:48:26 mchua: sorry ;) 14:48:40 ke4qqq: dead air on 2004 14:48:41 dunno HOW MANY times I have to change that blasted config entry before my name sticks 14:48:43 Thanks guys made into the room 14:48:53 * ke4qqq assumes you didn't hear that poelcat ?? 14:49:02 nada 14:49:09 :( 14:49:23 * poelcat suspects asterisk is br0k3n 14:49:43 haha 14:50:02 yay 14:50:20 * quaid is lurking and hopes not to cause echoing on the call 14:50:40 * mchua has just asked for assistance understanding ze phone - if folks can either repeat important points in person so I can lipread them, or take quick notes in the channel, it'd be much appreciated. 14:50:58 We are set up to have a somewhat ridiculously overdocumented FAD. 4 blog posts and we haven't even started, and Henrik's been taking pictures since last night. 14:51:02 This is good. :D 14:51:46 and all the blog posts are about ponies and waffles 14:51:57 OMNOM 14:52:01 * rrix chews a wafflez 14:52:20 pwnies! 14:52:53 WAFFLEZ 14:53:14 not to dwell on it, but should I be hearing anything on the conf line right now? 14:53:37 quaid: yes 14:53:43 quaid: we are talking 14:53:44 * quaid hates his setup 14:53:52 we can hear someone moving around 14:53:53 we hear quaid 14:53:53 Paul has just asked people on the phone to introduce themselves. 14:54:00 just like last time I used it it's all dead for me 14:54:02 Welcome to the channel, VileGent. 14:54:18 * rbergeron waves 14:54:21 quaid: I just verified that it worked from my mobile phone 14:54:34 we hear a mic moving 14:54:42 my mic is muted 14:54:57 so you can hear us quaid 14:55:02 nope 14:55:06 all dead to me 14:55:07 poelcat 14:55:11 are you doing some ... work? 14:55:15 WE HEAR YOU 14:55:16 we can hear you 14:55:17 karsten! 14:55:19 yes we can hear you 14:55:21 oh, well, that's fun 14:55:24 someone's moving their furniture around 14:55:26 manual labor, or something 14:55:30 "moving the furniture" 14:55:36 * poelcat is on mute 14:55:41 * quaid is sitting still and put his mic back on mute 14:55:41 oh 14:55:43 To repeat Paul's request of people on softphones - please mute your setup when you're not talking. 14:55:44 onboard mic 14:55:53 someone is being drowned in a bathtub 14:55:55 Someone's doing a drum circle. 14:55:58 Sounds like someone's getting beat up ;) 14:56:08 lol 14:56:11 All quiet on the western front now. 14:56:15 silence 14:56:19 I'm going to give up on the call, I can never get the stupid on board mic to not do that 14:56:21 too bad i can't use a phone atm 14:56:22 that was me typing, sorry 14:56:34 Yeah, on board mics suck. 14:56:37 quaid: Transcribing of ridiculousness will be done. 14:56:39 quaid: Expense a USB headset. 14:56:40 what about running the web stream so that people who are just lurking can be RO ? 14:56:43 stickster: I have one 14:56:55 I'll try USB instead of the analog ports 14:57:08 quaid: Yeah 14:57:14 * spevack suggests that people just call in with their mobile phones. It is the weekend -- free minutes :) 14:57:18 since we know that setup works 14:57:22 We probably should actually get started in the next few minutes. 14:57:34 spevack: international calls are never free :) 14:57:44 heffer: yeah... I meant quaid and poelcat. 14:57:48 heffer: you can't hear us either? 14:57:53 silence 14:57:58 i can't use a phone atm. i'm in the car 14:58:06 quaid, is that you? We heard a noise. 14:58:11 poelcat: try your mobile? 14:58:21 yeah, I tried to connect but usb isn't happy 14:58:28 i wouldn't hear too much anyway due to the noise of the wind 14:58:29 spevack: i'm on land line 14:58:33 "this conference call is now being streamed" 14:58:38 Where is it being streamed? 14:58:40 * spevack is utterly confused 14:58:45 The stream is now here: http://talk.fedoraproject.org:8000/status.xsl 14:58:54 #link http://talk.fedoraproject.org:8000/status.xsl 14:59:00 I'm also in... finaly ;-) 14:59:01 David is putting that link on the wiki page. 14:59:09 we're driving back from ski holidays with a jetbag mounted to the roof 14:59:12 I heard a rumor that #link isn't neccesary anymore 14:59:20 sounds terrible! 14:59:26 pesky ski holidays 14:59:28 i'll try the streaming 14:59:32 quaid: we'll find out after today's logs then :) 14:59:33 spevack: is the conf room on mute? 14:59:54 we don't think so 14:59:56 poelcat: it shouldn't be, because i heard them through my mobile phone 14:59:58 paul is checking 15:00:07 * quaid is trying the stream 15:00:16 they're redialing currently 15:00:30 hi all, pcalarco is here, remote 15:00:32 WE GET SIGNAL! 15:00:34 helloooo 15:00:54 OK, all good here again 15:00:55 hello 15:00:56 yes 15:01:04 ah, there's the stream! 15:01:09 aye 15:01:11 yayyy! 15:01:12 there's the stream. 15:01:16 poelcat? 15:01:16 poelcat: Can you hear us? 15:01:18 can you has hear 15:01:21 and reverb :) 15:01:21 brief sounds from outer space, then silence 15:01:29 * rrix headdesks 15:01:49 pcalarco: over the stream or via fedora talk 15:01:54 watch the forehead 15:01:54 MAIN SCREEN TURN ON 15:01:58 #topic FAD START! 15:01:58 poelcat? 15:02:03 can you hear usssss 15:02:14 Max is talking, I'll transcribe. 15:02:28 ke4qqq: silence over stream now 15:02:31 spevack: We've got lots of people here from all over the world 15:02:32 i hear line noise on the stream and the phone 15:02:40 Thank you for coming out from so far away, and on a weekend too. 15:02:56 very low, so i know i'm connected, but no 'people audio' 15:03:03 It's an interesting time to have a Marketing FAD - if we look at both the internal and external conversations, 15:03:15 we've got debates that have been raging for a year on f-a-b list on what Fedora is, our target audience, etc. 15:03:20 These are all marketing questions. 15:03:41 What an update policy should look like, etc... that's also marketing - because you design policies like that based on goals you're trying to achieve with the project. 15:03:46 hey Rex! 15:03:49 hi rdieter 15:03:54 We have an interesting opportunity that maybe we don't well as we could 15:03:56 * rdieter waves 15:04:05 separating the messages about Fedora-the-distro and Fedora-the-project 15:04:15 rdieter: hey Rex, welcome! I'm livetranscribing, Max is talking now. 15:04:25 Max: other distros are perhaps more focused on the kinds of users they want. 15:04:41 We have discussions on whether we're attracting devs, which seems to be our main focus, but is that what we want to do? 15:04:57 stream is silent. can anyone confirm that? 15:05:01 The interesting thing about getting together f2f like this is - we want to make sure we have as much transparency as possible 15:05:09 documenting work, showing work 15:05:13 hhhwho dat 15:05:14 *HORRIBLE NOISE ON PHONE LINE* 15:05:17 heffer: audio now on stream 15:05:21 yup 15:05:26 #chair pcalarco rdieter 15:05:26 Current chairs: PhrkOnLsh heffer ke4qqq mchua pcalarco poelcat quaid rdieter rharrison rrix stickster wonderer yn1v 15:05:28 someone on the toilet? 15:05:29 sounds of someone flushing their cocaine down the toilet before the FBI busts in 15:05:29 welcome folks :) 15:05:38 ..um, yes 15:05:39 sexy. 15:05:41 heffer: do not flush the toilet ;-) 15:05:50 wonderer: lol 15:05:51 i can't. i'm in a car 15:05:54 :) 15:05:57 Max reminding people that documenting EVERYTHING is uberimportant 15:06:01 ok, my experiment with voip is done for the day 15:06:04 * mchua will periodically call for people to spell her off 15:06:10 heffer: nice try ;-) 15:06:24 "It's like math class - you can get partial credit if you show your work." 15:06:39 Max: in marketing, we simplify and amplify. 15:06:45 this is particularly important b/c of the global nature of our message. 15:07:36 mchua sez, keep the information flowing 15:07:54 Transcription to continue here, blogs to the Planet, et al. 15:08:02 Aaand Max and Mel are done, and Robyn takes the floor. This is ROBYN DAY 15:08:08 #topic introductions 15:08:18 * poelcat don't meant to harp on this.... audio: stream and phone (land line--called in again) is not working 15:08:26 yep 15:08:30 People in the room just went around and said their names. 15:08:30 :( 15:08:36 I'm dialed via cellie and it's not giving us love 15:08:37 poelcat: Yeah, not sure if I can fix it without disruption at this point 15:09:00 And now Robyn takes it away. 15:09:09 http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents 15:09:19 any changes on schedule?? 15:09:27 I just heard /something/ 15:09:31 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_FAD_2010#Day_1_.28Saturday.2C_March_13.29 15:09:35 that's today's agenda 15:10:06 The mic appears to be on here, and we can hear when people's mics on the other side are on 15:10:21 can any of the people who *hear us* try to talk? 15:10:24 no 15:10:33 poelcat: I think rbergeron is going to want to ask you some questions in a moment. 15:10:35 is the speaker phone bad? 15:10:44 steal one from another room? 15:10:47 poelcat: we're trying intercall 15:10:51 poelcat: the speakerphone works 15:10:59 Folks, we're hanging up x2004 right now 15:11:00 :) 15:11:01 we are hanging up -- standby for a new dialin number 15:11:02 I suspect it's our asterisk 15:11:14 please update the stream too 15:11:15 heffer: we'll be able to get you a local number also 15:11:32 *temporary pause as Paul fiddles with the phone again* 15:11:49 spevack: i'd prefer the stream 15:11:52 but thanks 15:11:59 heffer: i don't think the Intercall setup can stream. 15:12:04 dial-in info -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Community_Architecture_meetings 15:12:08 But we have international dial-ins available 15:12:09 Aaaand... checking ze phone.... 15:12:12 where is heffer located? 15:12:17 germany 15:12:18 germany 15:12:21 heffer: Hang on and I'll PM you the info 15:12:24 there's a german toll-free number on there 15:12:28 on the link above 15:13:03 quaid, poelcat, inode0, heffer -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Community_Architecture_meetings 15:13:35 most be the mic here 15:13:43 yep, I hear john and me 15:13:48 yep, phone set is broken! 15:13:49 we have microphone fail. 15:13:59 *local debugging* 15:14:04 we know it works for poelcat and quaid 15:14:08 we can hear you guys talking to each other 15:14:09 we hear both of you 15:14:15 ha 15:14:16 hold on 15:14:46 word, my inbox just got deleted AGAIN 15:14:48 "A signal takes 10 hours to come from Raleigh but .2 sec to reach Raleigh; is it in another dimension? Discuss." 15:15:21 yes, I hear now 15:15:21 Hooray! 15:15:41 are those the remote mic pluggies that sit on the desk? 15:16:07 Microphones have been discovered! 15:16:08 ok, you all can go back to it now 15:16:28 the mic is picking up fine 15:16:34 not sure you have to talk directly in to it 15:16:38 I love to see how geeks make telephone thingys working and crawling around ;-) 15:16:50 rharrison is using his camera tripod so we can mount the mic in the center of our table-circle... 15:16:58 can someone about 10' from the mic talk? we can confirm sound here 15:17:40 I hear 15:17:46 * quaid is going to remain muted 15:18:05 spevack: sounds great 15:18:17 thanks folks, these are the keys :) 15:18:45 your choice 15:18:55 we're going back to Fedora Talk. 15:18:57 PEACE OUT 15:19:00 Everyone in the channel, we're swapping back to x2004 15:19:02 for talk 15:19:05 er, fedora talk 15:20:05 MIC SETUP WORKS! 15:20:09 yay! 15:20:18 k :^) 15:20:25 YAY 15:20:26 f12 post modem 15:20:31 #topic F12 postmortem 15:20:35 post modem? :) 15:20:36 PWNIES! 15:20:57 Robyn: We're doing an F12 postmortem discussion so we can talk about what we did right, wrong, etc. 15:21:07 This is my first full cycle, so it's hard for me to compare to past efforts. 15:21:12 heffer: http://www.braincache.de/wp/2010/03/02/fedora-ponies-dancing-under-the-disco-ball/ 15:21:26 If anyone's around who can give us a comparison, that would be teh awesum 15:21:47 #info we're making a postmortem SOP so that we can more easily look back on a release cycle at the actual end of each release. 15:21:54 spevack offers to talk about ancient history for a bit. 15:22:06 Max: I can talk back to F5, the first release I worked on. 15:22:23 When we got close to release for F5, there were a few people who basically wrote lots of release note type stuff for us. 15:22:34 * inode0 confirms stream is now working 15:22:41 We had an F5 release summary page on the wiki that was a list of highlights. 15:22:43 And that was abouti t. 15:22:53 And that was all F-mktg did for a while. 15:23:15 So we fell into a pattern where the FPL would get set up with interviews by RH PR and the rest of it was what /. posted and that was about it. 15:23:22 And all the f-mktg team did was collect links. 15:23:31 So looking from that to what we have now, there's been a lot of progress. 15:23:45 The things that make me happy to see, which are very new... 15:23:48 audio interviews, feature profiles 15:23:48 moin Justin 15:23:53 hey threethirty, inode0! 15:23:56 hey ryan 15:23:58 #chair threethirty inode0 15:23:59 Current chairs: PhrkOnLsh heffer inode0 ke4qqq mchua pcalarco poelcat quaid rdieter rharrison rrix stickster threethirty wonderer yn1v 15:24:10 We're just getting started. I'll pull up the backlog link. 15:24:27 Max: We've started doing videos, too - one thing we're doing during this FAD is making F13 vids 15:24:55 inode0, threethirty: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-fad/2010-03-13/ 15:25:12 * quaid has his USB headset working "right" now and will try to dial in with his mic muted; onboard mic should be mute but ... tell me if you hear my echoing and typing and I'll fall back to cellie dial in 15:25:12 Max: we need to make sure our message syncs up with what Ambassadors deliver at events. 15:25:18 quaid: ok 15:25:44 Max: I think the mktg team produces a lot of material, but I don't know how much we got that out to Ambassadors. 15:25:52 Robyn: I don't think we did much of that either. 15:25:58 * mchua shakes head in agreement 15:26:17 Paul: notes that the mktg schedule has a March 30 item for briefing Ambassadors on the upcoming relaese. 15:26:31 David: There used to be a requirement that Ambassadors needed to be part of Marketing. 15:26:40 Marketing == strategy, Ambassadors == tactical. 15:26:47 The two groups used to be largely the same thing. 15:26:56 And I think a lot of the disconnect is that everyone used to be in both places. 15:27:04 Paul: It was a much smaller group in those days. 15:27:09 So there were only a few dozen ambassadors. 15:27:10 * threethirty is in both 15:27:44 Max: There was frustration, because Ambassadors wanted to JUST GO to an event and DO STUFF but Marketing people said "but we have to have a plan" and Ambassadors said "uh, we'll figure it out when we get there" 15:28:04 so Ambassadors was created because it was a simple, actionable goal to say "we want a Fedora presence in every FOSS event in the next year" 15:28:15 and solve that problem separately from what that vision/presence actually looked like. 15:28:42 VileGent: There used to be so much cross-linking of ambassadors and mktg stuff that I dropped out of mktg 15:28:55 rbergeron: do you think everyone dropped out? 15:29:00 VileGent: Back then, I think that did happen 15:29:13 stickster: So the idea might not be to get everyone in Ambassadorland back on Marketing. 15:29:17 But there should be some connection. 15:29:31 Or leverage the connections we already have, like FAmSCo 15:30:17 FAmSCo can keep mktg in the loop on Ambassadors and what they're doing, perhaps? 15:30:43 ke4qqq: seems like around the F10 timeframe we talked about having mktg produce slidedecks for us. 15:30:49 I think we ended up making some generic stuff. 15:30:51 spevack: we made talking points. 15:30:55 and said "make your own slidedeck." 15:31:17 #idea Making a briefing slide deck out of the talking points and possibly other important info 15:31:17 rbergeron: *points out we don't have a shiny slides template, and people ask for that* 15:31:40 #idea sync with FAmSCo as a way of strengthening the mktg <--> ambassadors comm link 15:32:48 #idea have a joint mktg/ambassadors meeting once or twice a week on IRC 15:33:03 #undo 15:33:04 Removing item from minutes: 15:33:10 #idea have a joint mktg/ambassadors meeting once or twice a release on IRC 15:33:13 whoopsie. 15:33:16 thanks stickster. 15:33:18 * stickster gots mchua's back 15:33:55 * mchua asks if we want to focus specifically on F12 15:34:09 We have an ideas board and a "things that we should fix in F13 tiem" board 15:34:12 rbergeron: sez yes 15:34:22 stickster: starts the "go around the table and share your F12 perspective" circle 15:34:29 stickster: F12 was uber-ambitious from the mktg standpoint. 15:35:02 We did a much better job of figuring out and adhering to a schedule of tasks than we ever had before. 15:35:06 YAY poelcat! 15:35:10 we had a list of deliverables we wanted to hit 15:35:17 and a lot of people contributed to those deliverables. 15:35:24 rbergeron: was that the first schedule attempt? 15:35:26 #link http://www.redhat.com/ --> lulz @ outage 15:35:29 stickster: it was the first time we had due dates 15:35:42 stickster: before it was just "what we want to do by alpha, between alpha and beta, etc" 15:35:45 but f12 had actual dates. 15:35:54 spevack: just the notion of having a specific schedule == w00t 15:36:06 stickster: To me, from where I sit, the teams that have done that in general 15:36:13 spevack: scheduled maintenance window today ... gimme 5.5 :) 15:36:16 who are able to work up a schedule and produce those deliverables 15:36:29 have consistently done better at making those deliverables happen. 15:36:42 The pressure of a schedule - as long as it's self-inflicted - it's a great incentive. 15:36:48 It's not something that can be externally imposed. 15:36:57 The board can't come down and say "marketing, here are your due dates" 15:37:02 it's a volunteer project, it's not a corporation 15:37:08 so the fact that the team comes up with these dates == uberimportant 15:37:12 we produced more raw material than ever before 15:37:16 we did a one-page shiny release notes 15:37:22 spevack: Fail :) 15:37:27 (at outage) 15:37:28 which was THE SINGLE BEST NEW WIKI PAGE that we had in a year 15:37:50 It was a much better projection of our core values and the way we portrayed ourselves than we've ever done in the pst. 15:38:58 We need to do a better job of portraying Fedora - making clear how it's relevant to a user's life. 15:39:15 Another thing we did right: hitting the quantity, and eventually we hit the quality 15:39:22 there is life outside of Fedora? mchua surely you gest 15:39:24 though it would have been nice to see the quality hit more steadily. 15:39:53 * spevack tries to figure out if there's a way to see the wiki's most viewed pages 15:40:01 curious to know if the F12 one page release notes shows up 15:40:50 stickster: the in-depth interviews were tl;dr 15:40:53 * mchua thinks that was probably hers 15:40:54 spevack: there is but it may not show up on [[Special:Special pages]] 15:41:35 mchua: I read tham :) 15:41:37 them, even 15:41:38 stickster: it wasn't a problem with the quality of the work 15:41:43 it was like another 15% of the way that we needed to go. 15:41:44 VileGent: TA? 15:41:49 VileGent: TA? 15:41:52 TA? 15:41:56 wha? 15:42:05 quoi? 15:42:06 * ke4qqq points to the right of the sunday lunch 15:42:07 target audience what the stuff we are produceing 15:42:20 stickster: if we need to do this more incrementally, pushing it through, say, alpha phase more steadily 15:42:27 stickster: one more point I wanted to make 15:42:34 * inode0 thinks most people view talking points as more relevant to interviews & general talks rather than booth discussions - so most ambassadors probably don't spend a lot of time on them 15:42:41 stickster: there's still a lack of clarity between mktg and docs on who does stuff like release announcements. 15:42:58 inode0: i use them when i need to give the "what's new in Fedora" talk 15:43:07 because I want to talk about the "right" things 15:43:14 There's probably an opportunity there we aren't taking to do 15:43:28 * mchua would like to thank threethirty for the alpha release notes fu of AWESOME 15:43:31 for f13 15:44:03 welcome, hiemanshu! 15:44:05 #chair hiemanshu 15:44:05 Current chairs: PhrkOnLsh heffer hiemanshu inode0 ke4qqq mchua pcalarco poelcat quaid rdieter rharrison rrix stickster threethirty wonderer yn1v 15:44:10 moin hiemanshu ! 15:44:14 hiemanshu: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-fad/2010-03-13/ 15:44:16 mchua: ty but rbergeron did a lot of work too 15:44:22 and thank you to rbergeron as well! 15:44:27 yay teamwork! 15:44:43 * poelcat wonders if there could be a style/content guide template thing for the release announcements? 15:44:44 stickster: I really think we have - we have a list of things we produce over the course of the cycle that are repetitive. 15:45:04 poelcat: there's a style guide generally - but don't think there is aone specifically for release announcement 15:45:14 s/aone/one/ 15:45:14 But we may not have outlined a specific purpose in mind for all the documents we're making. 15:45:29 ke4qqq: can you relay inode0 and poelcat's in-channel comments to the room? 15:45:32 * mchua transcriby 15:45:40 yep 15:45:58 stickster: we need to be clearer about the purpose of our deliverables so we don't get lots of redundancy of work 15:46:00 a style guide would be helpful for release announcemnets as a first timer it was a little overwhelming, there isnt a lot of info at all on how to do it. I was just told "make it look like the last one" 15:46:09 ke4qqq: including a background section that is clear about who the release announcement is targetting and what it should accomplish 15:46:17 Hello mchua rrix 15:47:04 #idea make use of new F-Eng services queue 15:47:11 there is about a 5+ sec delay on the stream v. the voip btw 15:47:15 welcome etank! 15:47:20 hi mchua 15:47:31 * etank is just going to lurk for a bit :) 15:47:49 ke4qqq is relaying inode0 and poelcat's comments to the room 15:47:52 ke4qqq: can you throw in threethirty's too? 15:48:04 quaid: beyond your local buffering? 15:48:06