06:02:44 #startmeeting 06:02:44 Meeting started Sun Nov 22 06:02:44 2009 UTC. The chair is franciscod. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 06:02:44 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 06:03:08 roll call for the log 06:03:17 Ankur Sinha 06:03:54 Sankarshan 06:03:57 hi ankur :) 06:03:57 Shakthi 06:04:00 Rakesh Pandit 06:04:03 jaideep 06:04:10 Ratnadeep Debnath 06:04:13 Rajesh Ranjan 06:04:16 Kushal Das 06:04:36 Kedar Sovani 06:04:50 Pradipta Dash 06:05:29 eventhough everyone here's already done this before, for first timer's,please take a look at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRCHowTo#Meeting_Protocol 06:06:09 meetbot commands -> http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot 06:06:34 #topic F12 release events 06:06:44 Harsh Verma 06:07:12 i'll start, the lug here holds an install fest every semester 06:07:49 since F12's turned out to be such a blazing distro, there should be no trouble in convincing them to give out f12 this year 06:08:25 apart from that, I intend to hold a specific release event for f12, with the FAs here 06:08:59 there are 3-4 days left for this sem so all of this will be happening coming january.. 06:09:10 ? 06:09:17 rakesh: yes? 06:09:22 where? 06:09:35 oops.. sorry, Manipal institute of tech, Manipal.. 06:09:48 ok 06:10:08 ? 06:10:19 mbuf: 06:10:33 franciscod, could you tell for what Fedora is being used in the campus? 06:11:04 mbuf: its basically students using it on their laptops.. 06:11:19 franciscod, doing what? 06:12:00 most of them for use it as a daily OS, people from the lug etc use it for whatever dev work we carry out. 06:12:08 franciscod, ok 06:12:09 s/we/they 06:12:42 franciscod, like, college programming work, e-mail, browsing, chatting, documentation etc. ? 06:12:47 i'm going to try and hold release events etc in the nearby area too, although i cant promise much on that front.. 06:12:52 mbuf: mostly. 06:12:59 franciscod, ok, EOF 06:13:15 EOF 06:13:56 who'd like to go next? "!" please :) 06:14:14 ! 06:14:28 mbuf: please go ahead 06:14:46 I am happy to see people using Fedora for their daily use, which is the first step 06:15:11 but, it will be good to see whatever work they possibly do to be made available for others as well 06:15:27 excluding internal college work, of course 06:15:43 simple things, like installation documents on specific hardware, server setups etc. 06:15:44 ? 06:15:49 franciscod, yes 06:15:52 +1 06:16:11 some of it can be found on the lugmanipal wiki, ill update it and post to the list. 06:16:14 and all their blogs need to be aggregated to planet.fedoraproject.org 06:16:29 to begin with, all Fedora Ambassadors must have blogs, and they must be on the planet 06:16:35 ? 06:16:40 franciscod, yes 06:16:53 err... I am a bit late, I guess 06:17:09 how do we make more out of the 112 even active? discuss this in openfloor? 06:17:11 franciscod, a local user group can independently have wiki, which is fine 06:17:37 kishan: full name for the log please? 06:17:48 Kishan Goyal 06:17:49 franciscod, but, it will be helpful for Fedora specific blog content to be pushed to #fedora-india and the planet 06:18:04 ! 06:18:09 franciscod, definition of 'active' varies between individuals 06:18:19 franciscod, people have different interests 06:18:21 franciscod, yes 06:18:34 we'll need a sortof filter to be able to push to the planet 06:18:42 +1 06:18:48 +1 06:19:06 ! 06:19:21 kushal, yes 06:19:56 franciscod, you can easily make your rss feeds based on Tags or categories 06:19:59 06:20:23 kushal: okay, ill check that up and put it up somewhere for more people to see. thank you. 06:20:27 mbuf: ! 06:20:32 this is an action point, AP #1, someone who has access to Fedora Ambassadors India list, need to take this forward 06:20:59 send an e-mail to the list after the meeting, ask people to provide their blog URLs, tell them how to add it to the planet feed 06:21:03 franciscod, yes 06:21:13 #action ill do it franciscod 06:21:14 ! 06:21:21 mbuf: i understand the varied definition, but as an ambassador, you have duties, you can be a contributor and not an ambassador, that's just fine too 06:21:22 franciscod, good! 06:21:44 franciscod, yes 06:21:46 kushal, yes 06:22:27 ok so AP #1 on franciscod to follow it up on updating FAs' blogs to planet feed, make sure people create blogs and inculcate the habit of sharing their experiences, if they haven't started doing it already 06:22:30 mbuf, we generally ask people to add their blog themselves to the planet fedora, because to do so they must contribute to any other group within Fedora 06:22:56 kushal, FA is not sufficient? 06:23:17 ok so AP #1 on franciscod to follow it up on updating FAs' blogs to planet feed, make sure people create blogs and inculcate the habit of sharing their experiences, if they haven't started doing it already 06:23:25 sorry 06:23:47 kushal, in which case, this will be for all contributors who haven't uploaded their blog 06:24:03 mbuf, FA can get you fedorapeople account , which people can use to add their blog, but it is always nice to have them working in other groups 06:24:06 kushal, will it be better to file a ticket in fedora-india for this, so we can keep track of the action points? 06:24:16 kushal, ok 06:24:35 mbuf, in fedora-india trac , only the requester can view the ticket details 06:24:47 kushal, ohh! 06:24:48 mbuf, we can maintain a wiki page 06:24:58 kushal, sure 06:25:27 ! 06:25:30 franciscod, yes 06:25:51 mbuf, the reason for asking people to work on other project is mostly they don't do anything but still call themselves Fedora Ambassadors 06:25:54 06:26:08 so i'm tasked with posting the method and checking on FAs/contributors to check their blog activity? 06:26:11 kushal: +1 06:26:43 franciscod, you don't need to check for blog activity, just make sure if they are contributors, they should add their blog to the planet 06:26:43 kushal: +1 06:27:02 kushal, we need to define who an FA is in that case 06:27:08 mbuf: a blog without posts doenst mean anything.. 06:27:27 mbuf: can we keep the definition etc as a separate topic, current agenda is release parties :) 06:27:29 franciscod, we can see for activity for few months 06:27:55 franciscod: well even if no activity .. planet does not get effected. 06:28:01 franciscod, ok; I will take this after the discussion on release parties; since many are here, I thought we can have that discussion too 06:28:30 #agreed 06:28:54 franciscod, six months is lot of time to do some work; after which yum clean can be invoked, as done earlier 06:29:11 EOF 06:29:13 #idea added it to agenda: discussion on definition of a FA 06:29:50 someone wants to take the floor, please use "!" 06:30:48 jdk2588: any release parties planned :) ? 06:31:10 yes it's in the store and we will be soon having it 06:31:45 jdk2588: please tell us about it, whatever you've planned, floor is yours 06:32:14 ok I am a member of #lugb Bikaner 06:32:27 and recently appointed fedora ambassador 06:32:36 jdk2588: a link to a wiki or blog? for lug bikaner? 06:33:09 till now we had install fests at various campus hostels 06:34:00 we just formed this lug twenty days ago 06:34:53 oh, okay.. good :) go on.. 06:35:37 jdk2588: "?" 06:35:39 the enthusiasm for FOSS is great !! 06:35:46 yes franciscod 06:36:10 are any of the members there apart from you FOSS contributors? if yes, in what way? 06:36:57 we have contributors for various organizations 06:37:19 those who are members of lugb 06:37:40 we have three gsoc students 06:37:57 one from Sahana, Xiph, The NUI Group 06:38:20 drupal, mozilla, 06:38:35 we had a recent foss event 06:38:37 also 06:39:31 now what we are planning is to use Fedora full time ...that we are planiing 06:40:23 we have even install fests at girls hostel 06:40:24 jdk2588: Can you please specify the details of recent foss event. 06:40:30 yes i share the link with you 06:40:34 ? 06:41:14 jdk2588: please use #link 06:41:52 #link http://sakshama.org/documents/foss_gn09_report.pdf 06:42:34 we have skbohra who is a member of lugb and also GSoC student 06:42:34 skbohra: ! 06:48:12 EOF 06:48:37 jdk2588: please also add a page for your install fest, it counts as a fedora event , reports, feedback and pictures etc would be good too 06:48:56 ok 06:48:58 and oh, please dont forget to post to the list :) 06:49:29 ok 06:49:33 anymore people with release parties planned? or install fests? 06:49:53 Yes 06:50:04 Pradipta: proceed 06:50:17 I have plans to migrate 100 desktops of Coal India to fedora12 06:50:26 they are using windows xp 06:50:42 ? 06:50:56 Currently I am in NCL 06:51:07 MP 06:51:26 So I am planning to migrate some desktop to fedora 06:51:52 will you be setting up a local mirror to aid in updates? 06:52:05 yes 06:52:23 And for this may be I will ask for help 06:52:51 I am planning to do this within 10 days 06:53:33 06:53:41 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Mirroring#How_can_someone_make_a_private_mirror.3F this might help, for starters 06:54:29 Pradipta: please post any queries to the list, we'll be glad to help. what work is going to be carried out on the systems btw? 06:55:52 franciscod: It is end user desktop. basically work with ERP packages 06:56:00 like SAP 06:57:04 okay, thank you.. 06:57:05 It may be a problem to migrate the SAP packages with fedora12 06:57:25 Pradipta: okay, im sure the lists will be able to tackle it.. 06:57:48 yes. I hope the samething 06:58:36 whose next? :) 06:59:40 if all the release parties are discussed, we can move to the next topic, is Sri Ramadoss here? 07:00:20 * sankarshan would be afk - but logged in. 07:00:31 he had an #idea about a tamil team, 07:00:54 okay, we'll skip the agenda since he's isn't here.. 07:01:25 #info topic Tamil team skipped 07:01:39 +1, was he invited .. in case he does not logs in iRC 07:02:04 rakesh: he was, i sent a mail to the IRC to which he replied.. 07:02:17 s/IRC/list :| 07:02:35 oh, ok nice .. lets postpone. 07:02:36 next agenda would be what we had just begun discussing.. fedora ambassadors.. 07:02:59 #topic discussion on ambassadors 07:03:08 Sure. 07:03:15 as i had posted to the list, #info there are 112 ambasadors from india.. 07:03:26 more than any other country, needless to say. 07:03:51 as mbuf pointed out, people have different areas of interest, 07:04:33 however, i'd like to point out that being an ambassador is one of the ways you can contribute, with specific duties which should be carried out.. 07:04:42 #agreed for agreed 07:04:49 +1 07:05:25 mbuf: i had sent all the 112 personal emails asking them to join the list and try and be present at the meet 07:05:33 #agreed 07:05:38 franciscod, what list? 07:05:55 mbuf: i requested them to join the fedora-india list 07:06:04 franciscod, requested whom? 07:06:28 the 112 people listed on the fedora india ambassador page.. 07:07:04 franciscod, you are to tell them to put their blog to the planet 07:07:53 coming back to the definition of FA, a person who is participating in atleast one Fedora sub-project alone should become an FA 07:08:06 mbuf: yes, i'm saying that i already requested each of them using a personal email to try and be preent at the meet here today, and to join the list. 07:08:10 it could be documentation, or packaging, or anything 07:08:20 franciscod, that is not what we discussed 07:08:43 mbuf: i did that 5 days back, anyway, lets continue the discussion.. 07:08:46 franciscod, ok 07:09:12 #idea definition of an FA : person participating in atleast one Fedora subproject 07:09:27 mbuf: you are confused with what was discussed today and what franciscod did before the meeting, anyway I think resolved now. :) 07:09:31 and mentoring should be for six months, and a person who is new to Fedora or F/OSS should take atleast one year of participation before they can become an FA 07:09:50 mbuf: use #idea or #info please 07:09:51 rakesh, it was just out of context :) 07:10:04 franciscod, I thought the floor was open for discussions 07:10:21 mbuf: yup, itll make the log easier to read :) 07:10:37 mbuf: one is too much 07:10:49 +1 07:11:06 rakesh, the reason being that newbies these days have big distractions, and we want committed people 07:11:19 even an ambassador who does his work regularly is okay.. 07:11:34 rakesh, there are no short-cuts in life, and there is no fast track 07:11:37 by his work i mean active blogging, and spreading the word etc. 07:11:49 franciscod, no 07:11:54 duties of an ambassador.. 07:11:57 franciscod, that is exactly not what I meant 07:12:05 franciscod, I said participate in any of the Fedora sub-projects 07:12:06 mbuf: please clarify? 07:12:22 mbuf: I would say .. let admins decide based on activities shown by new comer .. rather then this prolonged time. That is what FA guidelines also say. 07:12:39 mbuf: a fedora ambassador is not necessarily a contributor to one of the subprojects. 07:12:54 franciscod, IMO, it should be like that 07:12:58 duties of an ambassador mainly revolve around spreading the word. 07:13:05 rakesh: ^ view? 07:13:05 franciscod, about what? 07:13:11 mbuf: about fedora :) 07:13:26 franciscod, if people are not participating in any sub-project, they will not know about working in the group 07:13:27 release fests, publications, 07:13:33 franciscod, and thus have nothing to talk about in the first place 07:14:02 ah, when is the fedora-india meet scheduled in #fedora-meeting? 07:14:09 franciscod, that will fall under 'Marketing' 07:14:48 #idea yeah, then i guess a fedora ambassador should *atleast* be an active part of the marketing team 07:14:53 mbuf: I agree with participating in a group ... but I think that should be recommended not mandated. 07:14:54 Acedip: its on.. 07:14:55 franciscod, that is correct 07:15:07 rakesh, why so? 07:15:26 ohk.cool, but i cant see anyone talking there. 07:15:28 Rakesh: #agreed 07:15:37 jdk2588 skbohra please join in the discussion :) 07:15:45 Acedip: its here :) 07:15:50 rakesh, we don't want to end up with people not working with the project, but, claiming themselves to be part of 07:15:51 ah.. 07:15:55 #agreed 07:16:11 @ franciscod 07:16:37 ! 07:16:39 and hence having long lists of people doing fundamentally nothing 07:16:41 rakesh, and if they don't participate in the group, and don't get the experience of working with people, if they happen to do just plain marketing, they could convey meanings totally opposite to the objectives of the group 07:16:41 Pradipta: yes? 07:16:55 mbuf: I think marketing is a important part 07:17:10 I think everyone sld be an active member of marketing team 07:17:15 skbohra, but, they should work with the marketing sub-project, under the guidance of mentors 07:17:27 mbuf: #agreed 07:17:29 mbuf: yeah agreed .. in most idle world. But mandating may hinder people who may want to be very less active to start with and may become a major active volunteer in future. 07:17:30 Pradipta, not necessarily; some people may not be good speakers 07:17:39 results should be visible 07:17:53 skbohra: +1 07:18:02 mbuf: I agree with mbuf that contribution is important !! but marketing can also be done ...infact by anyone 07:18:13 rakesh, mandatory is done to avoid trespassers who cannot be committed to the project 07:18:27 jdk2588, marketing should be done by people who know the subject 07:18:39 rakesh, and not wasting the time of people who are committed 07:18:44 jdk2588: is their own way yes, what we are saying is that the sufficient criterion would be to be a markting team member 07:18:49 to be an FA 07:18:55 we can look into mozilla campus ambassdaor to get idea 07:19:00 So you want to say you don't know anything about fedora???????? 07:19:18 Pradipta: knowing and speaking are different things. 07:19:25 franciscod, even in marketing, they should work closely with people who have done it before 07:19:27 and please limit the punctuation :) 07:19:38 +1 07:19:42 mbuf: yes, until they learn what and how to do it.. 07:19:44 mbuf: I would say make a nice proposal and send it for discussion and whatever be the result send it to FEMSco for approval :) 07:19:53 franciscod, the last thing you want is inexperience people conveying wrong messages to newbies; and avoiding that is more important; prevention is better than cure 07:20:06 *inexperienced 07:20:08 franciscod: sorry to catch up late but we also have an install fest lined up on 25th Nov. 07:20:10 #agreed 07:20:16 #idea make a nice proposal and send it for discussion and whatever be the result send it to FEMSco for approval 07:20:27 +1 07:20:33 Acedip: oh.. we can take that after the current discussion :) 07:20:42 the problem with newbies is that they are excited, but, they lack direction and focus and experience 07:20:47 +1 07:20:51 been there, done that :) 07:20:53 franciscod: sure. 07:21:02 +1 07:21:12 the thing that worked here was, we set an example ourself , people get attracted 07:21:23 mbuf: isnt compulsary mentoring already in place? 07:21:25 +1 skbohra 07:21:35 franciscod, yes, it was good that it happened 07:21:40 skbohra: people get attracted to the "title" of FA, not the work they are supposed to carry out.. 07:21:51 franciscod, #agreed 07:22:01 but you cannot do much about it. Giving a hand or pulling them in some direction without there volunteer decision does not show much results, that is the way I see it. 07:22:03 mbuf: that will help weed out "not so interested" people 07:22:04 I mean attracted by fedora people, how cool they are ;) 07:22:12 rakesh: +1 07:22:28 rakesh: if they arent interested themselves, we can drop them.. 07:22:37 the problem is marketing and technical work are two ends of a spectrum, and it is hard for someone to scale from one end to another 07:22:40 and be able to say "he did not work" 07:22:57 we had all our events on fedora laptops and desktops, giving example of how things work great on fedora 07:23:06 mbuf: so we can keep it separate, there are a lot of people who contribute by only spreading the word etc. not technically. 07:23:23 franciscod, the point is, they shouldn't waste our time, and that is why one year is utmost good enough to learn to work with people, to get the experience, and be a test of their commitment, for newbies 07:23:41 mbuf: for example, the [in the news] trend on fedora-ambassadors list. 07:23:54 can everything be some goal based. Say an FA decides what he wants to do and then gives reasons for what he did and what he did not and why sort of ? 07:24:02 franciscod, the real question, is not telling people 07:24:05 rakesh: +1 07:24:18 franciscod, it is whether they follow it up, and people actually start using it 07:24:24 we can set some target for a FA 07:24:29 franciscod, for us, the aftermath is more important than just conveying the message 07:24:38 mbuf: you mean results right? 07:24:44 franciscod, yes! 07:24:45 rakesh: view ^ ? 07:24:55 mbuf: +1 i agree with that part.. 07:24:57 franciscod, if people end up using it, it is great! 07:25:09 jdk2588: +1 07:25:28 #idea set a goal template for a new FA to accomplish.. 07:25:33 franciscod, but, one cannot also force F/OSS on to people; so there is a thin line to be drawn between the objectives 07:25:45 and the targets should be met within that span of time 07:26:05 mbuf: no forcing, they need to do an install fest or two, increases awareness and atleast some people will stick :) 07:26:06 jdk2588, targets should not be defined; participation should alone be counted 07:26:10 jdk2588, we are not doing business here 07:26:15 +1 :D 07:26:17 * rakesh on call 07:26:29 franciscod, atleast make sure that some people follow the traditions 07:27:13 #agreed 07:27:15 mbuf: out of the entire list of people attending, there will be some who will be interested 07:27:20 franciscod, there have been user groups that have become extinct, because the juniors were not interested, or the enthusiastic seniors have not made sure that things have continued to move on, over the years 07:27:32 franciscod, not a guarantee, but, a possibility 07:27:52 okay, lets take it this way, 07:28:19 if there's atleast even one person whose interested, "nuturing" him would be counted as an "accomplishment" 07:28:28 franciscod, sure 07:28:45 we cant really have hard fast rules for this, 07:28:50 franciscod, sure 07:28:57 franciscod, because there is lot of 'free advice' in India, people tend to do marketing easily 07:29:09 mbuf I agree not a business ..but if a responsibility has been taken then it should be fulfilled 07:29:09 franciscod, but, the problem comes, whether their content is right or not 07:29:12 +1 :D 07:29:35 hmm.. its about more newbies learning to be accountable 07:29:43 franciscod, and the real question is how do you measure a FA when working on a 'marketing' sub-project; other sub-projects can show code, spec files, or even documentation 07:29:54 so you can ask them "what have you been upto" 07:30:00 franciscod, sure 07:30:33 our mozilla firefox campus ambassador is one who never uses ff :( 07:30:40 lol 07:30:46 this thing sucks 07:30:51 #idea give them a period of say 3-4 months, then they submit a "what have i been upto" report to the list, and we vote? 07:31:02 #agreed 07:31:02 +1 franciscod 07:31:03 :-D 07:31:16 #idea the report *must* contain references/event reports 07:31:29 dont need to vote actually, the mentors can do the "marking" 07:31:32 franciscod, we are not the only people who should vote; 07:31:42 mbuf: ^ ? rakesh ^ ? 07:31:45 franciscod, the audience or the people receiving them should also give us feedback 07:32:11 mbuf: feedback doesnt have accountability.. 07:32:21 franciscod, when it comes from different sources, yes 07:33:19 * rakesh back 07:33:21 please throw more ides in, and use the #idea tag :) 07:33:27 when it comes from different sources, it has accountability 07:33:30 * franciscod waits for rakesh to read up 07:33:44 mbuf: how would we implement that? 07:34:03 "#fedora-spy" ;) 07:34:16 franciscod, for every marketing event, a mentor has to be there to see how things are progressing 07:34:28 franciscod, and it has to be reviewed periodically 07:34:33 mbuf: dont you think that'll be *hard* on the mentors? 07:34:52 franciscod, as I said, prevention is better than cure 07:35:01 #idea video testimonials 07:35:08 #idea mentors assign people they "trust" folks who are nearby, and already proven contributors 07:35:15 it will be too hard 07:35:19 skbohra: whose testimonial is the problem 07:35:31 rakesh: +1 alternate idea? 07:35:32 its of the participants 07:35:53 franciscod, you seriously don't want newbies doing marketing presentations, talking out of context, and giving the wrong impression to other newbies 07:35:55 skbohra: my friends would tel you it was great even if i couldnt install a single machine 07:36:01 franciscod, we must avoid that at all levels 07:36:11 mbuf: yes 07:36:14 franciscod : :) 07:36:27 franciscod, that is why mentors with experience, should review the feedback from students, periodically 07:36:40 franciscod, that way, the students get the experience and become mentors 07:36:44 #idea before a newbie does an event, he goes through an unofficial "what are you going to say" review.., 07:36:50 yes, it helps us get more mentors over time, the right way 07:36:56 #idea: we can provide slides, videos to be used for presenation 07:37:01 skbohra, sure 07:37:05 skbohra: +1 07:37:24 it will increase level of presentation to some uniform standard 07:37:28 mbuf: how will mentors review feedback forms from students? 07:37:45 and which students? ie whose the source ? 07:38:13 franciscod, based on student participation in the Fedora sub-project, or they can write to the mentors or something like feedback@fedora-india e-mail address or something like that 07:38:22 franciscod, the attendees of the event 07:38:42 #idea make a wiki page to collect updated slides on installing etc for events 07:38:51 franciscod, sure, anonymous feedback will be ignored 07:38:58 mbuf: could be implemented 07:39:00 I am not sure ... whether this is a good idea to do any review here. We should just encourage the discussion around "what one is going to speak about and what one expects" rather then saying .. one cannot speak unless he passes a review. progress cannot be achieved via controlling things .. we should rather try to do and encourage progressive todo .. not sure whether I am clear 07:39:03 #idea provide a feedback url to be told after each event , for the participants to fill 07:39:37 rakesh: a little more clarity would help.. example? 07:39:46 rakesh, there is no 'passing' a review; it is just a measure to review whatever is proposed to be done 07:40:00 mbuf: then it is fine. 07:40:12 each event page must have a feed back url 07:40:20 rakesh, it could be as simple as sending an e-mail to fedora-india mailing list, asking people for comments 07:40:24 * rakesh missed lot of discussion so pardon me :( 07:40:45 mbuf: yeps right, +1 07:40:46 rakesh: thats why i was waiting for you to read up :) 07:42:06 #idea create a feedback channel 07:42:06