15:05:01 <Sparks> #startmeeting Release Notes Meeting
15:05:44 <Sparks> #topic Roll Call
15:05:47 * Sparks 
15:06:11 <jjmcd> Ack - I totally forgot about this ;-)
15:06:22 * rudi is here
15:06:45 <Sparks> jjmcd: Yeah, me too.  I was trying to figure out why rudi was still up!
15:06:54 <rudi> lolz
15:07:05 * jjmcd was blogging on yesterday's meeting
15:08:12 <Sparks> #topic Last meeting
15:08:18 <Sparks> Okay from the last meeting I see...
15:08:32 <Sparks> that we agreed to use Publican for everything
15:08:53 <Sparks> that we needed three documents (right?)
15:09:21 <jjmcd> 3 formats?
15:09:28 <Sparks> three documents
15:09:34 <Sparks> 1) "normal" RNs
15:09:50 <Sparks> 2) "pretty" RNs (one-page by Marketing)
15:10:00 <Sparks> 3) things to know about upgrading
15:10:04 <jjmcd> Ahh yes, OK
15:10:25 <Sparks> The agenda from last week was:
15:10:32 <Sparks> 1. How to improve on the F12 RNs
15:10:41 <Sparks> 2. What products need to be generated.
15:10:53 <Sparks> 3. Using Publican for the RNs
15:11:00 <Sparks> 4. Training people to write beats.
15:11:23 <Sparks> Anything else we need to discuss?
15:11:44 <jjmcd> Perhaps today we should address products
15:12:00 <Sparks> okay
15:12:10 <Sparks> #topic RN Products
15:12:10 <jjmcd> We have agreement on 3 and last week we hit 1
15:12:36 <Sparks> Yes, and I've successfully gotten a Publican package into the repo now
15:12:57 <Sparks> So there are a few tweeks that need to be made but they aren't difficult
15:13:00 <jjmcd> I think there is the question of what to produce for online, how to present it, and what is actually in fedora-release-notes.rpm
15:13:17 <Sparks> Yes
15:13:22 <jjmcd> Yeah, getting the rpm actually built isn't a big deal IMO
15:13:32 <Sparks> So, IMO, we should provide the RN online in HTML, HTML-Single, and PDF
15:14:00 <rudi> +1 -- I really don't think anyone will miss ZIP and TGZ if they're not there...
15:14:17 <Sparks> jjmcd: ?
15:14:19 <jjmcd> But my question is what does that look like?  The example you had wouldn't work for RN
15:14:39 <Sparks> What does what look like?
15:14:59 <jjmcd> The web page where the user selects what he wants
15:15:05 <Sparks> Ahh
15:15:22 <rudi> I think that ryanlerch has been working on that a little
15:15:27 <Sparks> Well, it will probably (hopefully) be in Zikula by then so this will be a moot point but...
15:15:50 <rudi> Trying to work out how to tidy up the index page a bit
15:15:51 <Sparks> I made a table that can be seen at docs.fedoraproject.org/security-guide.
15:16:15 <Sparks> It isn't complete but is the basis for not having a complicated jumble
15:16:21 <jjmcd> Does that really change anything?  The user still needs to be faced with an incredible array of choices.
15:16:28 <jjmcd> Well, that isn't terrubly useful
15:16:30 <rudi> (ryanlerch is ECS's graphics go-to-guy)
15:16:43 <Sparks> Actually use http://docs.fedoraproject.org/selinux-user-guide/
15:16:50 <Sparks> My table is jacked up, apparently
15:16:57 <jjmcd> the security guide only has a few languages, not 12 releases, 42 languages, live versus now
15:17:15 <Sparks> Lots of choices isn't a problem.  Being able to clearly see the choices is the problem
15:17:23 <Sparks> why 12 releases?
15:17:38 <jjmcd> We keep RN's online for past releases
15:17:59 <jjmcd> 1512 products per release
15:18:12 <Sparks> Hold on...
15:18:20 <rudi> I think it's really important to have that archival material important; but does it need to be right there in the face of the user who's probably looking for the latest stuff?
15:18:29 <jjmcd> You have like a dozen for security-guide
15:18:30 <Sparks> We can group the different releases into their own tables and provide links to those at the top of the page...
15:18:37 <jjmcd> rudi: I'll buy that
15:18:42 <Sparks> but how do you get 1512 products per release?
15:19:02 <jjmcd> whoops, I added in the 12, forgot the 2
15:19:26 <jjmcd> OK, only 252
15:19:34 <Sparks> How do you get 252?
15:20:14 <jjmcd> 42 langs times 3 formats times 2 (we keep the original for live as well as most reent)
15:20:49 <Sparks> Well, if we sort by language and each language has three options then it shouldn't be complicated.
15:21:02 <Sparks> sort language alphabetically
15:21:06 <jjmcd> I'm not sure we really need that but it's what we've been doing
15:21:27 <Sparks> No, what I've seen is a jumble of language codes which is NOT user friendly
15:21:58 <jjmcd> Hmmmm, with help from L10N we could have a language selection leading to a table of releases/formats
15:21:58 <Sparks> There is a BIG difference between the release-notes and the selinux-user-guide page
15:22:13 <jjmcd> Yes, hundreds of docs verses a handful
15:22:35 <Sparks> But the way the RN languages are presented is not good
15:22:38 <Sparks> it is very confusing
15:22:55 <jjmcd> I agree, but RN's presented like SG would be  much worse
15:23:11 <Sparks> You can add every language you want to under the SELinux and everything will be easy to find
15:23:54 <jjmcd> I'm not really thrilled with a 1000 line long list
15:24:06 <Sparks> But it wouldn't be 1000 lines
15:24:14 <Sparks> just 42
15:24:28 <Sparks> sorted alphabetically by language
15:24:51 <jjmcd> So you choose the release on a separate page?
15:24:54 <Sparks> We'd put each release in it's own table to break it up
15:25:10 <Sparks> nah, just stack the tables with links to the table at the top of the page or something
15:25:17 <jjmcd> Oh, no, a link to previous releases which looks like the current, that might work
15:25:19 <Sparks> but you could do separate pages
15:25:43 <rudi> Or current-2 on the main page, and everything else on another page
15:25:48 <Sparks> sure
15:26:10 <Sparks> Might be interesting to break them all up on different pages just to see the hits
15:26:28 <jjmcd> Yeah
15:27:04 <Sparks> Of course this is a near-pointless conversation if we do get Zikula stood up before then
15:27:23 <jjmcd> Why?  We still have the question as to how to present it
15:27:44 <Sparks> Yeah, but we might have a completely different set of ways to present it then
15:27:55 <Sparks> drop down menus and other sexy things
15:28:40 <jjmcd> Well, I haven't played with Zikula enough, but it doesn't seem to make that much difference.  Personally, I'm mostly hoping to get away from that stupid CVS  ;-))
15:29:14 <Sparks> Well, I think Zikula will automate a few things for us.
15:29:35 <Sparks> And we won't be waiting for hours while the docs.fp.o site updates
15:30:00 <jjmcd> The release notes pages is already php, we could do drop downs and other goodies if we wanted
15:30:25 <jjmcd> But it is kind of a pain to do anything when you have a bunch of character sets you can't read
15:30:35 <Sparks> We could...   I'm just not that talented anymore.  If someone wants to do it I say go for it.
15:30:40 <Sparks> Yes
15:31:00 <rudi> I might forward this conversation to ryan when I see him in a few hours :)
15:31:40 <Sparks> :)
15:31:54 <jjmcd> OK, I'll go play with something on my local zikula instance and see if a vison comes down from the heavens, but a single list of langs with a link to old stuff sounds like good possibility
15:32:27 <Sparks> Okay
15:32:50 <Sparks> rudi: good for you?
15:33:01 <rudi> All good
15:33:31 <Sparks> #agreed a single list of langs with a link to old stuff sounds good for presentation on docs.fp.o
15:33:37 <Sparks> jjmcd: What's next?
15:33:42 <jjmcd> OK, so what about f-r-n.rpm?  Are we going to try to separate by lang?
15:33:45 <rudi> Before we move on....
15:33:54 <Sparks> rudi: Go ahead
15:34:03 <rudi> I thought that we should probably talk about the "minor docs"
15:34:16 <jjmcd> Yeah
15:34:32 * Sparks has always been confused by the "minor docs"
15:34:36 <rudi> These are currently packaged with the release notes, but I really don't think that they belong there.
15:34:44 <Sparks> What are they?
15:34:48 <Sparks> And why are they there?
15:34:49 <jjmcd> These are the docs that can't drink
15:34:53 <rudi> lolz
15:34:59 <rudi> Readme
15:35:00 <Sparks> Ha!
15:35:01 <rudi> About Fedora
15:35:12 <rudi> Readme-burning-isos
15:35:13 <jjmcd> readme, readme-burning-isos, homepage, etc
15:35:15 <rudi> readme-live-images
15:35:20 <rudi> yeah
15:35:37 <Sparks> I understand the "About Fedora".  Why the others?
15:35:51 <rudi> Legacy, I presume
15:35:53 <jjmcd> About-Fedora shows up in yelp, but I wonder how many people ever trip across the others
15:36:08 <jjmcd> Should they be in yelp too?
15:36:28 <Sparks> Well...  if we aren't presenting them in yelp why are they there?
15:36:39 <rudi> In some ways, their scope makes them look lke ideal wiki contenders
15:36:43 <Sparks> Couldn't we integrate it into a guide better?
15:36:46 <jjmcd> Currently they are text
15:36:52 <rudi> But static docs lend themselves better to localisation
15:37:01 <rudi> and these docs have been *extensively* localised
15:37:15 <rudi> (I presume because they're short and therefore attractive projects)
15:37:40 <jjmcd> Perhaps about-fedora contains links to these docs instead of putting them in the rpm
15:37:53 <Sparks> Well, can we either make them guides onto themselves or fold them into another guide
15:37:59 <Sparks> jjmcd: +1
15:38:10 <rudi> jjmcd -- at the very most.
15:38:27 <jjmcd> homepage is a different Q tho
15:38:36 <Sparks> What is homepage?
15:38:48 <jjmcd> What you get when you open Galeon
15:39:03 <jjmcd> or maybe its epiphany
15:39:04 <rudi> A page that loads in certain browsers if you start the browser without a net connection
15:39:22 <Sparks> Ahhh
15:39:22 <jjmcd> In at least one of them, you get it even if you have a connection
15:39:29 <rudi> Heh
15:39:50 <jjmcd> I think the connection thing used to be the case for firefox but isn't anymore
15:39:51 * Sparks notes that FF starts http://start.fedoraproject.org
15:39:52 <rudi> I think it's awful; all it can do is confuse users into thinking that they're online, when they're really not
15:40:36 <Sparks> Well, I think it should be separate from the RNs
15:40:44 <rudi> Sparks +1
15:40:55 <Sparks> I don't like bundling all this stuff together
15:40:57 <jjmcd> We need to understand what browsers use it and why
15:41:01 <rudi> And if Galeon or something else needs it; it should belong to that package
15:41:14 <Sparks> We need to identify the something else
15:41:20 <jjmcd> If it's one browser I agree, but I think there are multiples
15:41:27 <rudi> Or should be packaged up as a dependency for whoever needs/wants it.
15:41:48 <rudi> (Or they should get their browsers to point to something more useful... this is 2009....)
15:41:59 <jjmcd> Exactly, rudi
15:42:09 <Sparks> yes
15:42:33 <jjmcd> But we need to identify the affected browsers and contact their developers
15:42:44 <Sparks> jjmcd: Want to handle that?
15:42:57 <jjmcd> I guess I can do that
15:43:19 <rudi> As for "About Fedora"...
15:43:26 <Sparks> #action jjmcd to determine the affected browsers and contact the developers for the homepage project
15:44:16 <rudi> (sorry -- am I getting too far ahead?)
15:44:21 <jjmcd> I've wanted an excise to see what browsers we have
15:44:52 <jjmcd> lynx uses it even if you are connected
15:46:10 <Sparks> jjmcd: Yeah
15:46:19 <Sparks> rudi: Go ahead with the "About Fedora'
15:47:00 <rudi> I can see the importance of that if it shows up in Yelp; but it doesn't really have anything to do with the RNs
15:47:45 <rudi> I just wonder if there's a better home for it...
15:48:10 <rudi> (With yelp itself if that's the only place people will ever see it?)
15:50:10 <rudi> (And who would miss it if it wasn't even there?)
15:51:23 <jjmcd> Well, mostly it's recruiting
15:52:09 <Sparks> I think it should be packaged separately
15:52:34 <Sparks> I think it has its place in the OS but it is separate from the RN
15:52:47 <rudi> +1
15:53:16 <jjmcd> f-r-n.rpm currently contains all the OS docs installed on the users system.  Do we buy a lot by breaking it up into multiple packages?
15:53:53 <rudi> Well, it may only be two packages (three if we have to keep homepage)
15:53:54 <Sparks> Well, that's less to download when there is an update of one piece
15:54:16 <jjmcd> Yeah, but about-fedora and homepage are pretty tiny
15:54:35 <jjmcd> We will add to the space we take on the live cd by breaking them up
15:55:07 <Sparks> How much space?  Is it negligable?
15:55:25 <jjmcd> Its pretty small, but then every byte on the LiveCD is precious
15:55:32 <Sparks> I agree
15:55:41 <Sparks> Who is in charge of the LiveCD project?
15:55:58 <jjmcd> Dunno?  Is that Jeroen?
15:56:47 <Sparks> I don't know.  But if that is our blocker we should contact those folks
15:57:17 <jjmcd> I gotta boogie here pretty soon, but I will go ahead and run a test to see what the price actually is
15:57:18 <rudi> Well, if we can at least get the Live-Images and Burning-ISOs docs out of there this time around, that's a start :/
15:57:20 <Sparks> DavidZeuthen
15:57:52 <jjmcd> that's a new name to me.  I think RelEng spends a lot of time stressing over it each release
15:57:58 <Sparks> rudi: That's true.  removing those docs will reduce the overall size that we've been pushing
15:58:15 <rudi> ...and, more importantly, complexity and redundancy...
15:58:18 <Sparks> jjmcd: Jeremy Katz and Douglas McClendon too
15:58:36 <Sparks> rudi: Yes
15:59:16 <jjmcd> Maybe we add to Yelp an "Additional DOcumentation" topic that has links to install, security, etc
15:59:16 <Sparks> #action jjmcd to determine space differentials between the combined RN and the individual files in RPMs
15:59:26 <Sparks> jjmcd: +1
16:00:01 <Sparks> #idea break up all documents that are currently packaged as f-r-n.rpm into separate RPMs
16:00:27 <rudi> #idea -- don't package any that we don't know that we have to
16:00:32 <Sparks> #idea move Readme-burning-isos and readme into a guide
16:00:48 <Sparks> anything else we need to capture?
16:01:01 <rudi> I think that was it :)
16:01:05 <jjmcd> OK, I gotta go, but I have a few action items (which I needed like a hole in the head)
16:01:12 <rudi> That was my "wo minutes of minor docs hate"
16:01:12 <Sparks> :)
16:01:18 <rudi> jjmcd -- before you run
16:01:29 <jjmcd> ?
16:01:30 <rudi> Just a heads up that I branched f12 tonight
16:01:34 <jjmcd> cool
16:01:36 <rudi> (In case you didn't see)
16:01:42 <jjmcd> appreciate it
16:01:49 <rudi> And loaded in some dummy content that you can pull down and build :)
16:02:34 <jjmcd> OK, so master is sstill F11, but we will change that after the next update to get in changes and new translations
16:02:41 <Sparks> jjmcd: I'm going to do a blog on the beats here in a minute
16:02:44 <rudi> Yeah
16:02:47 <jjmcd> good deal
16:02:50 <Sparks> jjmcd: Is there a link to the beats for f12?
16:03:03 <jjmcd> wiki/Documentation_Beats
16:03:12 <Sparks> cool
16:03:19 <Sparks> anything else?
16:03:37 <rudi> Not from me :)
16:03:41 <Sparks> jjmcd: you?
16:03:45 <jjmcd> nope
16:03:48 <rudi> We seem to average one agenda item per hour :)
16:04:27 <Sparks> rudi: Yeah but we do get a lot done
16:04:28 <Sparks> :)
16:04:31 <Sparks> Okay...
16:04:34 <Sparks> #endmeeting