18:02:55 #startmeeting 18:02:56 Meeting started Mon Feb 8 18:02:55 2010 UTC. The chair is kital. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:02:57 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:03:07 #chair susmit 18:03:08 Current chairs: kital susmit 18:03:46 #roll call 18:03:51 .fas susmit 18:03:52 susmit: susmit 'Susmit Shannigrahi' - susmitshannigrahi 'Susmit Shannigrahi' - ssh 'Susmit Shannigrahi' 18:03:56 #topic roll call 18:03:58 sory 18:04:03 Joerg Simon 18:04:08 David Nalley 18:04:12 MAria Leandro 18:04:16 Susmit Shannigrahi 18:04:33 #chair tatica 18:04:33 Current chairs: kital susmit tatica 18:04:35 Christoph Wickert 18:04:48 Francesco Ugolini 18:05:04 John Rose 18:05:07 alzea arafat 18:05:43 great to see you n4is3n 18:06:15 thanks all for comming 18:06:21 thanks Joerg... nice to see you too bro :D 18:06:41 hi all 18:06:50 today we have the first famsco-townhall-meeting 18:07:58 ah ok :) 18:08:02 see you there then 18:08:03 people have the oppotunity to join us on all our meetings but this time we will use the whole time for communication with all of you 18:08:27 no lfoppiano you should stay ;) 18:08:38 #topic agenda 18:08:50 ok 18:08:55 ok i'm listening... 18:08:58 Any discussion around the FAmSCo_report_2010-01. 18:09:04 How are regional meetings going? 18:09:10 What is the one thing that you would like to fix in Ambassadors, either regionally or at a global level? 18:09:15 Does the new mentoring process work out or are the guidelines or the mentors to strict? 18:09:21 What do you think about opening FAmSCo trac for more transparency? --Cwickert 17:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC) 18:09:26 Are all ambassadors and their projects are supported properly? --Cwickert 17:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC) 18:09:34 Is there is enough commitment from Red Hat? --Cwickert 17:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC) 18:10:22 #topic Any discussion around the FAmSCo_report_2010-01 18:10:48 famsco decided that we from now on 18:10:52 * inode0 thinks the report structure and substance is brilliant and really helps us understand what is happening 18:11:00 deliver a monthly report for more transparency 18:11:23 the first was delivered last week https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAmSCo_report_2010-01 18:11:24 * fugolini likes it! 18:11:31 thanks inode0 ;) 18:11:57 all this was mostly the work of susmit and max 18:11:59 * ke4qqq admits he was hesitant at the idea at first - but very happy with the result - it's concentrating info from many disparate points - I particularly found the budget stuff to be fascinating. 18:12:12 we others just submitted our points for adding it 18:13:03 is there more what you like to see in there? 18:13:13 that reminds me..we should find a place to host the html reports..I am going to add that to the next meeting agenda. 18:13:46 #action susmit find a place to host the html reports 18:14:09 next topic? 18:14:15 3 18:14:17 2 18:14:32 1 18:14:39 #topic #How are regional meetings going? 18:15:04 ! 18:15:08 tatica: 18:16:00 I'll like to say to this point that LATAM has this month 4 mentoring meetings to help and guide the new ambassadors and contributors 18:16:39 ? 18:16:43 ? 18:16:58 cwickert: 18:17:12 inode0: is next after cwickert 18:17:29 sorry, my question is still on the previous item. is html really necessary? why not use the wiki? 18:17:41 and I will like to add some inter-region meetings 18:17:46 eof 18:17:56 thanks tatica - 18:18:49 cwickert: we discussed it during the last famsco meeting - there are certain arguments pro and contra 18:19:34 and i asume we have to discuss it further in the next meeting - very import for us was also to know that you like the structure and the content 18:19:36 * cwickert thinks the first report looked great, but FAmSCo should focus on the content, not the looks 18:20:27 cwickert, what if we focus on both? :) 18:20:32 +1 18:20:35 if temporary, is better separated from the wiki. easier to find 18:21:02 * inode0 will read it on the wiki most likely 18:21:18 susmit, the word "focus" includes that you pick a preference 18:21:38 i like pretty things and as long as susmit volunteers to spend time on creating it and it does not slow us down i think it is grat 18:21:46 once format is settled it won't be a focus at all, so this will go away 18:21:47 s/grat/great 18:22:42 ok, question answered, thanks 18:22:46 cwickert, at the end of the term, we will create a collated version of all the reports. it will come handy then. 18:22:54 #action kital put html-report pro contra decission on the agenda 18:23:14 we are at regional meetings 18:23:23 ! 18:23:27 RodrigoPadula: 18:23:32 Hello guys 18:23:39 hello RodrigoPadula 18:23:40 hello bro :) 18:23:56 I had some conversations with latam guys about meetings 18:24:08 mainly with guys from Chile to organize the FUDCon Latam 18:24:26 a lot of people are in vacations here during all february 18:24:50 so, I'm thinking to start and schedule meetings next month 18:24:55 tatica, ok ? 18:25:05 tatica, do you have comments about ? 18:25:07 eof 18:25:12 EMEA 18:25:19 we are already working, so I guess you only have to check the list 18:25:19 http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2010-01-27/fedora-meeting.2010-01-27-20.01.html 18:25:20 :) 18:25:22 eof 18:25:41 tatica, yes, but to organize local meetings with more people 18:25:46 we have to schedule for next month 18:25:55 RodrigoPadula, nop 18:26:01 meetings are led regularly with good and healthy discussions 18:26:09 only chile and argentina are on february vacations (afaik) 18:26:18 but 18:26:19 tatica, brasil too 18:26:21 what we can di 18:26:23 *do 18:26:34 is to separate the task and work even better 18:26:34 nothing special to add to regional meetings for emea - as long as you have not question to emea 18:26:44 this 3 countries are the latam countries with more number of ambassadors 18:26:52 I'm helping on guidance, and you have a lot of work fudcon-chile 18:27:22 so I guess we can make a squedule (I don't know how it writes) and help everyone 18:27:23 tatica, I know and as I told, we I cant schedule meeting with the ambassadors from Chile this month 18:27:31 * inode0 still has a question about tatica's mentoring meetings which can wait for the mentoring topic 18:27:41 inode0: move on 18:28:00 RodrigoPadula, sure. But I can't help too much like with fudcon-chile 18:28:17 I rather to focus on help new people to find groups to help 18:28:26 RodrigoPadula, what do you think of that? 18:28:32 tatica, dont worry about that, I 'm talking about general metings 18:28:50 oh, ok I though you talk about chile and fudcon 18:28:53 my mistake 18:28:54 ? 18:29:01 inode0, you have a question? 18:29:04 sorry tatica RodrigoPadula can you stop for a moment 18:29:09 eof 18:29:13 this discussion doesn't seem to involve non-famsco members 18:29:25 inode0, +1 18:29:29 we will finish this discussion in our latam list, will be better 18:29:49 sorry for not giving this topic a better structure 18:29:52 to choose the best date/hour! 18:30:03 we had latam 18:30:22 inode0: please ask you question 18:30:38 s/you/your 18:30:59 One of the things I'm having trouble with is mentoring and I'd like to know more about the structure of tatica's mentoring meetings? 18:31:10 Do they have a group of mentors? 18:31:23 Or one mentor and a group of new people? 18:31:44 nop, we in latam don't use the name "mentor" so much 18:31:58 so it is more like a classroom? 18:32:17 so what we do (and what I'm doing since this week) is to get to small meetings with people interested to help and guide them to get a goal in less than a week 18:32:18 yes 18:32:29 so we are happy with their performance... but most important 18:32:45 they can see a quick help that is truly need and get more excited about help 18:32:50 ok, so this is not related to the formal ambassador mentoring process?! 18:33:16 only for ambassadors 18:33:22 but 18:33:28 like RodrigoPadula said 18:33:53 we are also interested on make ambassadors and user to become contributors, not only attending and spread fedora, but also making it better 18:34:06 tatica, +1 18:34:07 ok, thank you 18:34:08 that's why gomix create rpmdev, I create the latam design team and do on 18:34:21 ? 18:34:23 the ambassadors also have to give an example helping those new contributors 18:34:25 eof 18:34:28 tatica, are you logging this meetings or are you doing 1:1 meetings like me ? 18:34:41 inode0: mentors are free to choose how to teach people - if they do it with a mentoring meeting on irc - sounds cool 18:34:44 log 18:34:56 tatica, 1:1 ? 18:35:03 kital: I'll come back in the mentoring agenda topic to that 18:35:09 RodrigoPadula, general meetings, the first was this saturday, next will be 28-feb 18:35:18 (I think.. I have to search the log) 18:35:46 i would say we move to the next topic - sorry for NA and APAC it is my fault 18:35:47 RodrigoPadula, I made the first test with venezuela, colombia and peru and was fantastic, now I will do it with latam 18:35:57 RodrigoPadula, was just a try that works :D 18:35:59 eof 18:36:00 why are you not annuncing this meetings in the latam list ? 18:36:02 NA meetings are going well as far as I know 18:36:03 ahh ok! 18:36:05 i had give this topic a better structure 18:36:10 ? 18:36:13 sankarshan: 18:36:48 sorry guys I lost myself for a while 18:36:50 * sankarshan wanted to know if there was a plan to do a survey amongst the mentors with the aim of finding out what is working and, whether tweaks are required to the mentoring process/flow 18:37:07 yes sankarshan i have this topic! 18:37:13 sankarshan: kital and others and have discussed that 18:37:24 sankarshan: i still work on it 18:37:34 thank you kital and ke4qqq, I must have missed it. My mistake 18:37:45 sankarshan: ;) 18:38:17 sankarshan: do you see things that need to be changed with the process? 18:38:25 for the next topic i want to ask you - if you want to answer this question just do it with 3 lines! 18:38:40 #topic What is the one thing that you would like to fix in Ambassadors, either regionally or at a global level? 18:39:25 Booth etiquette (and I'm one that in the past didn't respect it, mea culpa) 18:39:30 ! 18:39:32 both 18:39:37 ! 18:39:43 sorry 18:39:45 ! 18:39:51 n4is3n then lfoppiano 18:40:07 i think both of it 18:40:23 Creating metrics of measurements of what Ambassadors are doing so as to enable a more detail health-check of the program itself and, analyze the strengths and shortcomings of the individual Ambassadors. 18:40:34 # more transparency for the work that is done by FAmSCo 18:40:34 # further - enhance Fedora´s presence in underrepresented Regions - concrete: a translation marathon in Kyrgyzstan in 2010 and more focus on Africa! 18:40:38 # further - improve the Membership and regional Mentoring Process 18:40:38 ehm, the protocol? 18:41:01 n4is3n: go ahead 18:41:49 starting from regional is better . May conduct direct meeting ;) 18:41:55 * tatica ask: is anyone from africa in here? 18:42:55 people please read the topic - there is someone who asks us as the famsco members "What is the one thing that you would like to fix in Ambassadors" 18:43:10 so just write what you want to fix 18:43:13 * inode0 would like to make a few comments on mentoring from his perspective 18:43:17 then it is time for questions 18:43:24 ! 18:43:34 ! 18:43:37 fugolini: 18:43:54 First of all, sorry if I didn't respect the netiquette. 18:44:19 I just want only to suggest this thing, that I read in the Mailing List 18:44:54 Christopher pointed out a big problem. I think FAmSCo (or AMAs) should work writing some guideline 18:45:30 it's seem stupid, but since something isn't structured in rules, it seems only a plus 18:45:34 eof 18:45:50 fugolini: what do you mean ? 18:45:56 I've seen that at events too and think it is mostly the result of too many people at the booth at once (too many ambassadors) 18:46:38 fugolini: i planed an open floor for the last ten minutes to discuss open issues 18:46:49 i provided an agenda 18:46:50 * ke4qqq really doesn't want famsco to 'guideline' how people behave or dress or anything else. It should be something the event owner manages. Besides, how would we ever enforce it?? 18:46:51 Create some guidlines for booth management. These will be directed, inderectly, to people who, like I did in the past (and you corrected me), don't know how to handle big events and, after, small events 18:46:59 all people agreed we follow this agenda 18:47:10 kital: I thought this was a topic famsco should take care 18:47:12 so please turn back to the topic 18:47:13 sorry 18:47:23 the topic is not idea to follow? 18:47:28 ops to sugges 18:47:49 from my understanding it was a question to famsco 18:48:31 I think fugolini recognizes "bad" booth behavior as something he would like "fixed"? 18:48:42 ok now it makes sence 18:48:44 sense 18:49:19 thanks this is a important input 18:49:23 inode0: yes, sorry but I'm quite caotic 18:49:31 * kital too 18:49:32 kital: the thanks goes to christopher 18:50:41 #action kital put "bad" booth behavior has to be "fixed"? 18:50:51 #undo 18:50:51 Removing item from minutes: 18:51:01 #action kital put "bad" booth behavior has to be "fixed" to the next famsco meeting agenda 18:51:17 -1 18:51:30 I think bad depends of the point of view 18:51:50 shall we speak about the FODEM both? 18:51:55 * inode0 thinks famsco should discuss it - and if best leave it alone 18:52:03 ok 18:52:04 lfoppiano: thats why we will discuss it on the next meeting 18:52:06 * ke4qqq apologizes, but must depart and refocus on $dayjob for a bit. 18:52:08 yes, better if we move on. 18:52:19 I would like to change a bit the structure of the ambassadors world wide: right now we have regional meetings and regional leaders. Why don't have also country leaders. I'm sure there are already leaders in every country, people who work hard to make things done, but maybe we should make it more official. I think this idea might improve even the communication and the decision process in each contry. 18:52:30 nobody is following the protocol...so 18:52:45 lfoppiano: yes it is a chaos 18:53:01 anyway this is my proposal 18:53:12 so much for this being a toownhall 18:53:24 lfoppiano: there is nothing stopping regional groups from self-organizing by country if they want to is there? 18:54:49 inode0: ok 18:55:00 ok next 18:55:15 #topic Does the new mentoring process work out or are the guidelines or the mentors to strict? 18:55:45 Not working out but the guidelines for mentors are fine 18:55:53 inode0: ;) 18:55:56 +1 18:56:20 inode0, why do you think it is not working out? 18:56:24 I find the mentoring process immensely rewarding with a good new contributor 18:56:35 from my pov i think they are not to strict because mentors can decide by just decide by healthy mind 18:56:52 whether mentoring should follow a formal procedure? 18:56:53 and to have a proper wiki page is not so hard 18:56:58 I find that a very high percentage of people asking me to mentor them through this process do not fall into that category and just waste my time 18:57:14 n4is3n: https://fedorahosted.org/fama/wiki/mentoring 18:57:29 Interesting points. 18:57:30 kital: thx 18:57:51 susmit: I think it is doing what it is intended to do, but I don't like feeling like 90% a failure and I don't like wasting so much time on people who aren't serious 18:58:03 ! 18:58:11 cwickert: 18:58:48 the reason why I put this question on the agenda was that I think some of the guidelines are to strict and we loose good people 18:59:04 I'm not even sure if I would have passed the current mentoring modell 18:59:11 cwickert: you are a packaging sponsor 18:59:29 +1 18:59:33 right, but what does this have to do with the ambassdors? 18:59:45 if you want to help someone to become a packager you expect that they take you suggestions and use it 18:59:51 and follow your guidance 19:00:27 kital, but in the case we discussed two days ago the mentor demanded to follow some rules that are not even in the wiki 19:00:56 when I as a packager sponsor suggest some change to a package, it is written down in the packaging guidelines 19:01:40 IMO we need dedicated ambassadors who are not developers/packagers, cause we don't want tech only stuff hanging out at our booths 19:02:08 and if we put the entry level to high, we might loose people that later turn out to be good ambassadors 19:02:24 eof (for now) 19:02:27 and if a mentor suggest someone to be more verbose on the wiki page i expect that the mentoree should try to follow 19:02:31 ! 19:02:41 susmit: 19:02:46 ! 19:03:02 cwickert, inode0, I, personally send them a list of works...90% of them does not complete those and comeback. I am not saying this the best way, but I can really find out who are interested and capable. inode0, I, personally send them a list of works...90% of them does not complete those and comeback. I am not saying this the best way, but I can really find out who are interested and capable. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Welcome_Message_To_New_A 19:03:02 mbassadors Do you think something like this will be better? 19:03:12 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Welcome_Message_To_New_Ambassadors 19:03:22 sorry for the break 19:03:58 I repeated twice..but is this understandable? 19:04:27 eof 19:04:37 Nice susmit. ;) 19:04:44 ! 19:04:47 what? 19:04:59 ! 19:05:22 susmit: in this case a mentor reviewed a page and suggested to add two lines of prosa to look more verbose and the mentoree complaint and deleted the wiki page entirely so we could not sponsor 19:05:50 cwickert then inode0 then lfoppiano 19:06:01 thanks, forst to susmit, then to kital 19:06:25 susmit, I understand your POV, but in this case we lost a person, who is a member of the wider Fedora community and already helped out at an event 19:06:46 kital/susmit, the information the mentor demanded had nothing to do with Fedora, it was information about $dayjob, which IMO is not required 19:06:50 eof 19:07:38 cwickert, that is not definitely required. The concerned person could bring this to FAmSCo. Leaving without any discussion is not a good idea. 19:08:18 cwickert: i think it was a communication issue you know how is this can happen 19:08:34 susmit: i am on it 19:08:47 ! 19:08:48 susmit, no, the person no longer wants to be an ambassador because she thinks the requirements are stipid. she did not leave without discussion 19:08:50 i heared about it on fosdem 19:09:45 the mentor said he wanted to bring up this topic at famsco, but until two days ago, nobody ever heard about it 19:09:59 thanks to kital for taking over btw! 19:10:06 eof 19:10:32 you can skip me...I haven't anythign to say anymore 19:10:33 * inode0 thinks a meeting of mentors to discuss mentoring problems and experiences would be helpful 19:10:43 inode0, +1 19:10:44 +1 19:10:50 inode0 +1 19:10:57 lol, that was what I was writing :D 19:11:00 +1 19:11:17 inode0: great 19:11:24 from that maybe we can generate some ideas 19:11:35 #action kital set up a mentors meeting 19:12:43 this seems a good fazit for this topic 19:13:02 undo 19:13:11 #action kital and tatica set up a mentors meeting 19:13:38 lol 19:13:51 #topic What do you think about opening FAmSCo trac for more transparency? --Cwickert 17:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC) 19:14:04 we discussed this on the last meeting 19:14:18 * kital searches the report 19:15:20 http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2010-02-01/fedora-meeting-1.2010-02-01-18.03.html 19:15:35 AGREED: We agree that the need for transparency exists, but need to think about how to provide that while not opening up private information. 19:15:47 # http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/PrivacyPolicy (susmit, 19:00:58) 19:15:49 I can summaries..we were not opposed to opening up the trac per se, but we think we need more discussions before we do that. 19:15:56 ! 19:16:00 cwickert: 19:16:10 and sure susmit 19:16:24 do you know how many reports actually contain private information? 19:16:33 eof 19:17:16 * kital not 19:17:24 nop 19:17:50 cwickert, no..but considering trac can not be opened selectively, we have to ensure even one does not have that. 19:18:19 eof 19:18:28 this also meens even if it contains content along http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/PrivacyPolicy we can not open it 19:18:50 so not only bank transfer stuff 19:18:56 ! 19:18:58 cwickert: 19:19:41 sorry to jump back, but i don't think we are honiring the privacy policy in the wiki ether 19:20:03 otherwise we would not have the case we just discussed in the mentoring question 19:20:08 scnr and eof 19:20:48 cwickert: this is different 19:20:59 cwickert, the wiki page *is* created by the account holder. Right? We insist about having valid contact there, not home address or phone number. 19:21:08 as an ambassador you take a role and you make a decission to do this - 19:21:19 you have the choice to put it on or not 19:21:56 it was not about address or telephone... 19:22:12 i see no problem with this https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Template:Userpage 19:22:41 the wiki page was based on that template and the mentor said it was not enough 19:22:52 but this is a different issue 19:23:24 anyway, I think FAmSCo needs to be more transparent and this townhall meeding is a good start. 19:23:24 eof 19:23:29 from what i could hear the mentor suggested something to enhance the presence of an ambassador 19:24:42 ok for susmit it is nearly 01:00 am 19:24:56 kital, I think we should have a fallback policy in case there be dispute among mentor and mentee..I am afraid of creating too many rules though. 19:25:08 we can discuss it in our next meeting. 19:25:16 ? 19:25:32 cwickert: we will move 19:25:34 on 19:25:37 cwickert: 19:25:58 back on the opening trac topic. can please all FAmSCo members please say a brief "yes" or "no"? 19:26:24 ?? 19:26:24 cwickert: we have agreement already 19:26:29 20:13 < kital> AGREED: We agree that the need for transparency exists, but need to think about how to provide that while not opening up private information. 19:26:52 cwickert: so please give us this time 19:26:53 cwickert, there was a vote if you see the log. 19:26:56 ok 19:28:07 #action kital create a ticket to discuss fallback policy in case there be dispute among mentor and mentee.. 19:28:24 #topic Are all ambassadors and their projects are supported properly? --Cwickert 17:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC) 19:28:57 cwickert i think this is because you have got no xfce cd's? 19:29:47 no, not only. there are people like you and me that spend at least 15-20 hours a week on Fedora 19:30:02 are these contributors supported enough? 19:30:05 cwickert: me at least 8hours a day 19:30:10 ;) hihi 19:30:40 cwickert: we can only try 19:30:43 supported in what way? 19:30:54 kital, right, and do you feel like your get all the support you need? 19:31:16 inode0, for example when they file a ticket in one of the tracs and there is no response for weeks 19:31:34 nether from the art team, not from a famsco member, not from the board and so on 19:31:38 cwickert, for India and APAC, there is no such request, I can assure you. 19:31:49 susmit, well done then 19:32:19 i though tatica helped you with this ticket 19:32:33 we *do* turn down some requests, but we attend each of them. 19:32:54 * tatica has been really busy with flisol... ask apologize to cwickert 19:32:59 right, in fact tatica was the only one to at least do *something* although she became unrespoinsive later too 19:33:26 this might be due to her other duties, but then somebody needs to support tatica too 19:33:50 I think that the problem is just that 19:34:17 that's why we need to get new contributors (learning) to help with this things 19:34:36 not everyone has to be a start at the begin (and I say this for my personal experience) 19:34:49 I start with artwork just translating 19:34:59 tatica +1 19:35:06 * tatica just wondering and talking... maybe some solution can be get 19:35:09 tatica, right, but the new contribtors are at the base level when they start. we need more support on higher levels when it comes to money, decisions and so on 19:35:23 emm 19:35:27 1 problem at the time 19:35:33 and to be faster with such things https://fedorahosted.org/emea-swag-tracking/ticket/11 19:35:41 if we want to solve them all, we need to take one coin at the time 19:36:13 so... 19:36:36 cwickert, did the dvd where solved? 19:36:55 no they were not, althought I did the artwork myself later 19:37:04 The artwork is ready as PDF at... 19:37:33 mo told me that it needs to be done in srcibus because inkscape doesn't do CKMY 19:37:39 but let's not go into details 19:37:43 ok, do you have someone locally that can help you with artwork? 19:37:54 there should be local teams to this kind of tasks 19:38:03 that something I think, we need to work on 19:38:08 tatica: you know how large the design team is? 19:38:14 the only local is nicu 19:38:14 I just wanted to know: do the famsco members think that there is enough support for the high volume contributors 19:38:24 in europe 19:38:24 cwickert: there is never enough 19:38:35 so I should export latam experience there :P 19:38:51