20:03:01 <mchua> #startmeeting
20:03:02 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Feb 23 20:03:01 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:03:04 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:03:38 <mchua_> There we go.
20:03:42 <stickster> woo!
20:03:45 <rbergeron> mchua_, issues much :)
20:03:55 <rbergeron> chair yourself? can u?
20:03:58 <mchua_> Yeah, something's weird on the server I ssh into irssi from.
20:04:17 <mchua> There we go.
20:04:50 <mchua> Well, we have one purpose with the meeting this week: Finish Talking Points.
20:05:10 <mchua> We'll be kicking off slogan selection as soon as that's over, but that's something that's already queued up to run smoothly.
20:05:12 * mchua knocks on wood
20:05:25 * rbergeron sent email earlier with questionz on slogan stuff, fyi.
20:05:27 <mchua> Any urgent business before we get down into talking points?
20:05:27 <mchua> Nice.
20:05:32 <mchua> Thanks rbergeron. :)
20:05:36 <mchua> join #fedora-mktg
20:05:40 <mchua> argh.
20:05:42 <mchua> webchat!
20:05:44 * rbergeron hands mchua the magic /
20:05:56 * mchua has magic /
20:06:05 <stickster> mchua: We may also want to kick off slogan here before the hour is up.
20:06:05 <mchua> Allrighty.
20:06:14 <mchua> stickster: Yep, I'm hoping we'll have time to do exactly that.
20:06:17 <mchua> But first...
20:06:22 <stickster> Oh, scrollback. Sorry.
20:06:25 <mchua> #topic Choosing the final F13 talking points
20:06:26 <stickster> :-D
20:06:39 <mchua> When last we left our heroes, we had....
20:06:51 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Talking_Points
20:07:17 <mchua> ...and I think it's safe to say that it is now time for us to winnow down.
20:07:23 <rbergeron> true story: rrix and rbergeron looked at talking points over the weekend at the coffee shop
20:07:33 <mchua> rrix and rbergeron, YOU ROCK.
20:07:36 * rbergeron didn't realize we had copied over the feature list, with things to fill in
20:07:38 <rbergeron> and i was like,
20:07:44 <rbergeron> OMG!! WHY IS THE WHOLE LIST HERE!!!!
20:07:48 <rbergeron> oh, i can has read. :)
20:08:01 <rbergeron> "why should this be a talking point" :)
20:08:04 <rbergeron> aha!
20:08:11 <rbergeron> anyway. take it away :)
20:08:35 * rbergeron loves the sortable wiki table btw.
20:08:45 <mchua> It's handy, yes?
20:09:04 <mchua> Anyway, I was thinking we could start with each category - User, Developer, and then Sysadmin - see what we have, and then pick for that category.
20:09:17 <mchua> Then step back and see the spread of what we have in total, if there are any giant gaps...
20:09:23 <mchua> and then think about the stuff that isn't features.
20:09:35 <mchua> So, User category...
20:09:46 * mchua assumes people will holler if they object to various ongoing plans ;)
20:09:48 <mchua> #topic User cateogry
20:09:54 <mchua> ...we'll pretend I can spell.
20:10:04 <rbergeron> Can zarafa cross the user / sysadmin bridge?
20:10:14 <mchua> This has a lot of points - 7 are listed - so we need to winnow down a lot.
20:10:23 <rbergeron> or is it just backend stuff
20:10:26 * rbergeron hasn't tried it out.
20:10:35 <mchua> Well, let's take a look at the feature page.
20:10:44 <rbergeron> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Zarafa
20:10:44 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Zarafa
20:10:47 <mchua> jinx!
20:10:54 <rbergeron> indeed.
20:11:10 <stickster> It does cross the line
20:11:14 <stickster> But in a good way :-)
20:11:24 <rbergeron> #link http://www.zarafa.com/
20:11:26 <rbergeron> also
20:11:44 <rbergeron> OMG AND BLACKBERRY
20:11:47 <rbergeron> mmmm
20:11:51 <stickster> Drop-in MS Exchange replacement for groupware. So it will appeal to users because of comfort/UI and also mobile compatibility; and to sysadmins because they are the ones who have to set it up
20:12:07 <stickster> However, it's important to note here that we are not the first distro to have it.
20:12:12 <mchua> It looks like it's slightly more on the sysadmin side of things to me, but let's chuck it in with our other 7 user talking points for discussion.
20:12:40 <mchua> What else do we have on the user list?
20:12:45 <mchua> * BFO
20:12:48 <rbergeron> stickster: is "first to market" important? or things that will make things better?
20:12:54 <stickster> Wait, hang on...
20:12:57 <mchua> * automatic print driver installation
20:12:59 * rbergeron overuses the things word.
20:13:07 <stickster> We may be the first distribution where you can just "<pkg-mgr> install zarafa"
20:13:22 <stickster> You know who would know for sure? rsc
20:13:39 <rbergeron> stickster:
20:13:41 <rbergeron> #link http://www.zarafa.com/news/6-feb-zarafa-collaboration-platform-packaged-ubuntu-and-fedora
20:13:53 <rbergeron> dunno if that's helpful.
20:13:53 <rbergeron> The final version of ZCP 6.40.0 release, scheduled to be launched in March 2010, will be available through the Canonical Partner repository for the popular Ubuntu distribution.
20:13:54 <rbergeron> This week Fedora gave its legal stamp and will ship ZCP 6.30.x series and final 6.40.0 release with one of the upcoming versions of its Linux distribution.
20:14:01 <stickster> rbergeron: Ah, OK, thanks
20:14:19 <rsc> stickster?
20:14:20 <mchua> BFO, print driver installation, color management, kde4.4, networkmanager bluetooth, networkmanager command line, networkmanager mobile status, user account dialog, yum language package plugin, zarafa.
20:14:31 <stickster> rsc: ^^^
20:14:48 <stickster> rsc: So if I read this right, is Fedora the first distro to get an in-distro packaged version of Zarafa?
20:14:51 <rbergeron> i'm pretty sure rrix will pipe up for kde.
20:15:08 <rsc> stickster: yes, because Ubuntu is not really indistro. And we're closed to "yum install zarafa"
20:15:26 <mchua> If we do some logical merging (nm stuff all goes together) that becomes a list of 8: "BFO, print driver installation, color management, kde4.4, networkmanager <stuff>, user account dialog, yum language package plugin, zarafa."
20:15:33 <stickster> rsc: Will that be for F13+ only, I take it?
20:15:52 <rsc> stickster: no, F11+ and EL5+ (I'm working on EL4+)
20:15:58 <stickster> rsc: Thanks
20:16:10 <stickster> rbergeron: It's probably not tremendously relevant whether we're first.
20:16:14 <rbergeron> mchua: the nwmanager stuff, aside from mobile status enhancements, i'm not sure how user-exciting that is.
20:16:16 <stickster> It's a compelling feature, regardless.
20:16:28 <mchua> Yeah, I'm not sold on the network manager points.
20:16:34 <rbergeron> Older phones and command line isn't mondo sexy sounding.
20:16:41 <mchua> Nor on the color management, though I think it might be a nice thing to, say, encourage the Design spin to highlight.
20:16:47 <rbergeron> The Mobile status stuff, though... maybe?
20:16:48 <mchua> I do like print driver installation.
20:16:54 <stickster> rbergeron: mchua: It might be to the many, many people who have complained about no NM CLI though :-)
20:17:05 <mchua> Ah, point.
20:17:05 <stickster> I'd prefer to bundle that up with the other "new code" features for desktop users
20:17:28 <stickster> These are all cross-distro. I'm not interested in putting out "GNOME 2.30" or "KDE 4.4" or "XYZDE m.n" as a feature
20:17:58 * rbergeron will translate that as not a Fedora feature, but everyone has those features :)
20:18:03 <stickster> New distros will all be hopping up to ~latest overall platforms.  What's important are the pieces of stuff inside where Fedora is featuring latest innovations.
20:18:31 <rbergeron> User Account Dialogue, Color Management, NW Mgr with focus on CLI.
20:18:33 <stickster> Which is where auto-print drivers, color management, user accounts, NM upgrades come in
20:18:40 <stickster> rbergeron: disco
20:18:46 <rbergeron> Yum?
20:18:51 <rsc> stickster: at Ubuntu, Zarafa is part of the "Canonical Partner Repository".
20:19:05 <stickster> rsc: I see
20:19:35 <stickster> rbergeron: I would say yum *might* be on this list
20:19:44 <rbergeron> well, I think we just listed 4.
20:19:49 <stickster> The langpack plugin means it's possible for us to cut down on extraneous languages and only install what's needed
20:19:51 <mchua> Well, we've got to settle on 3 (ideal) to 5 (max). So that isn't bad.
20:19:54 <rbergeron> 5 if we bridge zarafa with user / sysadmin.
20:20:06 <mchua> It sounds like auto-print-drivers is an unanimos yea, is that the case?
20:20:09 <rbergeron> langpack might be good to highlight international community work.
20:20:20 <rbergeron> with yum
20:20:36 * rbergeron isn't sure that came out right
20:20:40 <mchua> Yeah, I like langpack for that reason. I also think the user account dialogue might be an interesting story to write up, wrt how the design was created.
20:20:44 <stickster> yup -- only question I have is, are we really *using* the plugin yet?
20:20:53 * mchua looks at that feature page
20:21:01 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/YumLangpackPlugin
20:21:40 <rbergeron> do a lot of people write langpacks?
20:21:54 <stickster> rbergeron: You find it with things like OpenOffice.org, Eclipse
20:22:04 <mchua> ...hm, this actually makes an interesting "how a feature gets developed" story, potentially, with the Seth-Kevin-Notting thread on devel last year evolving into code by Petersen now.
20:22:05 <stickster> Larger packages that have a LOT of things run through i18n/l10n
20:22:14 <stickster> mchua: I'd buy that
20:22:20 <mchua> I also see "Fedora QA Test Day being proposed for Feb"
20:22:27 * mchua checks the list
20:22:35 <mchua> but basically if that's going down they can hammer it out and make sure we *do* use it and all that.
20:22:57 <mchua> So I like langpacks.
20:23:12 <stickster> If we swell a particular area of TPs it should be the "Everyone" area. We don't recommend that sysadmins everywhere switch to Fedora for all their long-term production server needs, so really that means we'd naturally lean the TPs a little more toward everyone + developers
20:23:14 <mchua> Ah, yes, it is scheduled for 2/25.
20:23:21 <mchua> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Fedora_13_test_days
20:23:25 <stickster> mchua: agree
20:23:46 <stickster> So I'm saying I'm not too concerned whether we have 4, 5, or even if we eke out to 6 in this area.
20:23:52 * rbergeron nods
20:23:55 <stickster> It just can't be... like 10 or 12.
20:24:00 <stickster> 5-6 tops.
20:24:12 <mchua> Ayup. What do we have now, again?
20:24:23 <rbergeron> we're not missing anything, are we?
20:24:34 * rbergeron looks to see if anything wasn't filled in
20:24:40 <mchua> Do we have consensus on auto-print-drivers, langpacks, and user account dialog being in?
20:24:56 <rbergeron> color management?
20:25:03 <rbergeron> mchua: yes on those 3
20:25:14 <mchua> stickster: ok with those taking up half the user slots?
20:25:15 * rbergeron looks to see if anything wasn't filled in
20:25:30 <stickster> yup
20:25:30 <rbergeron> nobody filled in aynything on mobline
20:25:32 <rbergeron> -e
20:25:37 <rbergeron> typing++
20:25:48 <stickster> rbergeron: Moblin will get a TP in the "New Spins" area, along with SoaS, Design Suite, and Security
20:25:57 * rbergeron just caught that
20:25:59 <rbergeron> :)
20:25:59 <mchua> Yeah, I'm leaving spins for last.
20:26:05 <rrix> I filled in the KDE one part-ways, but got distracted and had to leave. I'll fill that guy in asap
20:26:07 <stickster> mchua: sorry, proceed :-)
20:26:09 * hiemanshu is here and very late
20:26:17 <rbergeron> rrix: read up on KDE comments
20:26:26 <mchua> Color manager: GNOME feature made by a Fedora contributor.
20:26:51 <rrix> rbergeron: trying, sitting outside wardriving, low screen contrast
20:27:10 <stickster> mchua: Right, premiered here in Rawhide
20:27:29 <mchua> +1 to color manager from me, but that also would take us up to 4 and then we need to make tough choices for the last 1-2.
20:27:32 * jfalco is here, late, sick :(
20:27:47 <stickster> mchua: I think BFO is not eligible for "everyone."
20:27:55 <mchua> Hey, jfalco - feel better! We're just going through the talking points and picking the final set.
20:28:02 <rbergeron> let's put colormgmt on the "maybe" list?
20:28:03 <stickster> Given the conversation we had on the websites list, it's decidedly not for everyone -- yet.
20:28:13 <rbergeron> see where we are with everything else.
20:28:18 <rrix> I think that gcm would be an awesome talking point, tbh
20:28:29 <stickster> Color management is a bit tougher because it's more useful for people like artists and designers who really know what they're doing
20:28:39 <stickster> At the same time, Linux has needed it for a LONG time.
20:28:49 <rrix> stickster: or folks whose laptops need color profiles (my thinkpad needs one or looks like poo)
20:29:00 <stickster> And now it's sure to take off, because with a framework in place, many people will be able to contribute device profiles
20:29:07 <rbergeron> And at the same time, anyone who has never heard of it, which i'd imagine is a good chunk of people, may say, HUH?
20:29:09 <stickster> So I guess I'm a +1 on this.
20:29:18 <dramsey> +1 for Color management.
20:29:21 <rbergeron> but it could attract a good segment of users.
20:29:29 <hiemanshu> +1 from me too
20:29:37 <stickster> rbergeron: Yeah, esp. designers/artists, +anyone else who knows they need it
20:29:52 <mchua> +1 color management.
20:29:57 <mchua> (hey dramsey!)
20:30:06 <rbergeron> okay. so we're in agreement on User stuff?
20:30:13 <stickster> That brings us to 5, and I'd say that's a good round number for TPs.
20:30:14 <dramsey> mchua and everyone: hello from Japan-land...
20:30:14 <rrix> hey, it's a dramsey !
20:30:20 <mchua> 5? What's the 5th?
20:30:24 <mchua> I have...
20:30:28 <mchua> Auto-print-drivers langpacks User managment Color management
20:30:35 <mchua> ow, and no comma separation
20:30:44 <mchua> Auto-print-drivers, langpacks, User managment, Color management
20:31:08 <rbergeron> NW mgr / CLI
20:31:09 <rbergeron> ?
20:31:14 <mchua> Ah yes.
20:31:21 <stickster> I would make that "NM improvements"
20:31:28 <stickster> Because those can all be summed up together neatly.
20:31:32 <mchua> And did we come to a conclusion on zarafa?
20:31:48 <stickster> I'd call that something for sysadmins
20:32:02 <mchua> BFO sounds like a no, and KDE 4.4 should probably be highlighted in the Spins section (though rrix, we should talk about making a KDE Spin talking points set), so it's just zarafa as the open question on whether we have 5 or 6 "everyone/user" talking points.
20:32:03 <rrix> +1
20:32:03 <stickster> They are the group that will be primarily solving a problem/relieving pain
20:32:04 <mchua> Okeydokey.
20:32:09 <dramsey> +1
20:32:10 <mchua> Sounds like we have our 5.
20:32:15 <mchua> Lemme mark that...
20:32:24 <rrix> mchua: Yeah, I wated to get with you on that, either soonish or at FAD.
20:32:38 <stickster> The spins section is really for "new spins"
20:32:43 <mchua> #agreed - Everyone/User talking points to be auto-print-drivers, langpacks, user management, color management, network manager improvements.
20:32:52 <dramsey> +1
20:32:57 <stickster> Otherwise we have a section with potential to overload everything else in the TPs
20:33:02 * mchua nods
20:33:12 <mchua> rrix: we'll do KDE talking points one way or another. ;)
20:33:13 <rrix> Is KDE Desktop Edition technically a spin? It may be under spins.fp.o but I was under the impression that it was a direct subset of DVD == NOT spin
20:33:25 <hiemanshu> rrix: its a spin
20:33:32 <hiemanshu> the official live CD is GNOME based
20:33:48 <hiemanshu> and AFAIR KDE has been called a Spin by fedora
20:34:04 <rrix> hiemanshu: it's touted on get.fp.o as KDE Desktop Edition. I'm just asking out of curiousity :)
20:34:20 <mchua> Either way, does it affect the talking points?
20:34:26 <stickster> Nope
20:34:27 <hiemanshu> no
20:34:34 <mchua> So let's get crackin' on the developer section then. ;)
20:34:35 <rrix> indeed
20:34:36 <stickster> It's just an article of many hands writing
20:34:38 <mchua> #topic Developer talking points
20:34:41 <rrix> apologies
20:34:44 <stickster> s/article/artifact/
20:34:50 <stickster> mchua: forward!
20:34:52 <mchua> rrix: no prob, it's a good question... we can take in in #fedora-mktg.
20:35:15 <rrix> mchua: I don't trust this ocnnection to change windows ;) later :)
20:35:17 <mchua> All right. So, looking again at the Dev-categorized stuff on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Talking_Points - our job is wayyy easier here.
20:35:55 <mchua> We have... boost 1.41, easier python debugging + python3, ghc-6.12.1, and systemtap static probes.
20:36:03 * rbergeron just lost intarwebz :/
20:36:28 <stickster> mchua: I think I'm -1 on boost. Keeping in sync with upstream isn't compelling.
20:36:31 <rbergeron> typing from crackberry, plz excuse bad typing.
20:36:37 <stickster> rbergeron: np :-)
20:36:40 <wonderer> sorry, im late
20:36:46 <mchua> In addition, features that were not highlighted but that we may want to look at briefly: netbeans 6.8.
20:36:49 <mchua> ...and that's all I can find.
20:36:54 <stickster> mchua: There's also ghc.
20:37:04 <stickster> That's actually on our list with a reason.
20:37:13 <stickster> Improved libraries and packaging
20:37:15 <mchua> Oh, sorry, did I miss that one? *resorts table*
20:37:32 <rbergeron> yeah, its not linked to a feature page?
20:37:41 <rbergeron> or info
20:37:45 <rbergeron> :)
20:37:50 <stickster> Hm
20:37:54 <mchua> yup, got it. So we have boost, python debugging + python3 (I like the suggestion to lump those together), systemtap static probes, ghc, netbeans.
20:37:59 <mchua> That's 5.
20:38:01 <stickster> Yeah, it kind of lacks the "broad appeal" part.
20:38:31 <stickster> mchua: My votes are Python (2 items), BFO, and SystemTap.
20:38:44 <wonderer> +1
20:38:50 <stickster> SystemTap is compelling as a follow on to "more work promised in F12, delivered in F13"
20:39:04 <mchua> BFO in dev rather than sysadmin category?
20:39:11 <stickster> mchua: I'm sorry, my mistake
20:39:18 <stickster> self.slap()
20:39:29 <mchua> undo()
20:39:41 <mchua> systemtap +1.
20:40:01 <stickster> mchua: Uh oh, I found one thing we missed in User/Everyone, let's circle back after SysAdmin please.
20:40:03 <mchua> And also on the Python, though I'm torn on whether to do it as 1 or 2 talking points.
20:40:07 <rbergeron> hah!
20:40:09 <mchua> Yokeydokey.
20:40:10 <stickster> mchua: I think it's really two
20:40:14 <stickster> They're hard to explain together
20:40:27 <stickster> They don't really have much to do with each other, actually, but each is totally awesome on its own.
20:40:44 <stickster> I don't think that's unfairly stretching things out, either.
20:41:00 <mchua> I'm mostly concerned with having our dev talking points be python python and then python python python.
20:41:16 <jfalco> agreed
20:41:33 <mchua> That's why I'm trying to figure out a good reason to highlight, say, netbeans or something like that.
20:42:10 <stickster> mchua: I could go for adding NetBeans, it's actually really significant
20:42:19 <mchua> It looks like the netbeans feature was done by upstream working in Fedora, which is pretty cool, though it's hard for me to tell by glancing
20:42:33 <mchua> though I do like that "NetBeans IDE 6.8 is the first IDE to offer complete support for the entire Java EE 6 spec"
20:42:52 <mchua> because <insert something nice about open standards here>, perhaps
20:43:00 <stickster> Yup
20:43:04 <stickster> +1
20:43:06 <dramsey> +1
20:43:42 <mchua> Do we want to do anything with Boost?
20:43:45 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/F13Boost141
20:44:12 <wonderer> -1
20:44:13 <stickster> -1 from me, not because it's not cool, but because it's going to be hard to make it compelling
20:44:19 * stickster revises his votes: Python (2 items), NetBeans, SystemTap
20:44:22 <dramsey> -1 for Boost, +1 Systemtap...Also likes System Rollback With Btrfs, too.
20:44:27 <mchua> Otherwise, it looks like we have our list: systemtap, python (2 items), netbeans.
20:44:33 <mchua> stickster: jinx!
20:44:34 <stickster> dramsey: That's sysadmins. We're on devs now.
20:44:47 <stickster> dramsey: Don't make the mistake I made, The Mel will get ya! :-)
20:44:47 <wonderer> my reason is that we should have a GOOD mixture betwen the things we want to present and not to present ALL thats new...
20:44:52 <dramsey> Whoops, self slaps.  ()
20:44:52 <rbergeron> oh, hallelujah, intarwebz has returned.
20:45:05 <mchua> welcome back, rbergeron! I think we pretty much have dev talking points down.
20:45:14 <stickster> disco
20:45:17 <mchua> Y'all good with 4? systemtap, python (2 items), netbeans.
20:45:22 <mchua> Going once...
20:45:27 <mchua> Going twice...
20:45:32 <wonderer> rbergeron: do you stil editing the talking_ponts_SOP ?
20:45:38 <mchua> BAM. On to sysadmins.
20:45:45 <stickster> go4it
20:45:53 <mchua> #agreed Developer talking points: systemtap, python debugging, python3, netbeans
20:45:54 <rbergeron> um, talking points? or release slogan?
20:46:05 <rbergeron> either way, i'm not working on either atm. waiting for feedback on release slogan email. :)
20:46:15 <mchua> wonderer: We're going to need to do a final clean up of the talking points SOP when we're done with the talking points, but release slogan is a better target to aim for, I think ;)
20:46:22 <mchua> #topic Sysadmin talking points
20:46:40 <mchua> Almost done - this is the final user-type batch, and then we'll look at spins and non-features.
20:46:42 <mchua> so, sysadmins!
20:46:44 <wonderer> rbergeron: talking ponts. Because  I think its a good idea to have the categorys also in as a template...
20:46:49 * stickster votes Authconfig UI, BFO, NFS (together as 1 point) Zarafa... really, not shutting out anything.
20:47:03 <mchua> dramsey, you brought up system rollback with btrfs?
20:47:06 <stickster> NFS is the only thing I feel iffy about... it's hard to make it sound sexy.
20:47:21 <rbergeron> wonderer: i'm not following? are you talking about the sysadmin / user / dev categories?
20:47:33 <rbergeron> stickster: it just needs lipstick. :)
20:47:36 <stickster> mchua: Oh wait, we had system rollback with btrfs suggested too. No one filled it out though.
20:47:42 <wonderer> rbergeron: jep. there are not mentioned as the "base" categorys...
20:47:44 <stickster> :{}
20:47:44 <dramsey> Yes, I like the System Rollback With Btrfs..
20:47:50 <wonderer> but we can do that later
20:47:51 <mchua> dramsey, want to say a bit about why you'd like to have that as a talking point?
20:48:09 <dramsey> Yes, "The System Rollback With Btrfs feature empowers the administrator to be able to have automatic as well as manual full filesystem snapshots, for example each time the yum transactions are processed."
20:48:17 <jfalco> +1 btrfs
20:48:24 <rbergeron> wonderer: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talking_Points_SOP#Mandatory_Content
20:48:32 * hiemanshu is back
20:48:34 <dramsey> Additional information here:
20:48:35 <hiemanshu> +1 btrfs
20:48:38 <rbergeron> they're listed in there as what the segmentation should be
20:48:41 <dramsey> #link http://blogs.igalia.com/aperez/2008/06/more-btrfs-goodness-snapshots/
20:48:45 <dramsey> #link http://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Getting_started
20:48:49 <stickster> btrfs is next-gen tech, lots of sysadmins are interested in it as the next step beyond ext4
20:49:02 <dramsey> dramsey nods
20:49:06 <mchua> Well, it sounds like we have room.
20:49:06 <stickster> Plus I think it's useful for small machines too, isn't it?
20:49:11 <hiemanshu> trying to get close to the way ZFS works
20:49:12 <stickster> Like OLPC?
20:49:12 <wonderer> +1 on stickster.
20:49:13 <hiemanshu> closer**
20:49:21 <dramsey> +1
20:49:26 <hiemanshu> stickster: works on all
20:49:38 <stickster> hiemanshu: Sure, the question is whether it's *compelling* on all.
20:49:38 <rrix> alright, this connection is slowly dying, i'll catch all you guys and gals and various other creatures in mktg tonight after school musical stuffs
20:49:55 <mchua> Authconfig UI, NFS, zarafa, BFO, btrfs - that's 5, that's a good number.
20:50:00 <mchua> rrix: see you later, Ryan!
20:50:02 <stickster> yup
20:50:02 <dramsey> waves goodbye to rrix
20:50:08 <rbergeron> The Btrfs disk format is not yet finalized, and it currently does not handle disk full conditions at all. Things are under heavy development, and Btrfs is not suitable for any uses other than benchmarking and review.
20:50:11 <rbergeron> that's straight from
20:50:15 <hiemanshu> stickster: personally if I had a OLPC, I wont care about btrfs, but if I had a server, I would like to have it on btrfs
20:50:17 <rbergeron> #link http://oss.oracle.com/projects/btrfs/
20:50:37 <rbergeron> oh, that's an old wlink.
20:50:47 <rbergeron> l2 redirect, pplz :)
20:50:50 <stickster> rbergeron: http://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page
20:51:01 * rbergeron nods
20:51:02 <stickster> It's actually doing much better these days
20:51:10 <mchua> rbergeron: Can we pitch it as a "you can play with this technology in your sandbox easily"  sort of thing? It sounds like that was the intended phrasing of the feature, even thought it sounds more mature nowadays
20:51:25 <mchua> "We are not proposing Btrfs to be the default filesystem for Fedora 13"
20:51:32 <stickster> Right
20:51:32 <hiemanshu> mchua: yup that would be the right way to market it
20:51:34 <hiemanshu> sandboxing
20:51:41 <rbergeron> i guess my main question is if we want to highlight something as "totally awesome" if ... you don't want to be a critical thing
20:51:42 <mchua> it might make the nice beginning of a "look at btrfs as time goes by!" series
20:51:43 <stickster> We want to be clear that people will not be getting btrfs by default.
20:51:57 <mchua> the same way we did virt for f12, the same way we're bringing up systemtap again now.
20:52:00 <stickster> "For those people trying out btrfs..."
20:52:05 * rbergeron nods
20:52:07 <dramsey> nods
20:52:16 <hiemanshu> stickster: IIRC you need to add a kernel line to get the option
20:52:27 <hiemanshu> icantbelieveitsbtrfs or something was for F11
20:52:28 <mchua> As long as we're careful to phrase it as "Play with this!" rather than "deploy mission-critical EVERYTHING on btrfs!" I think we'll be good.
20:52:39 * rbergeron nods
20:52:42 <rbergeron> "not the default!"
20:52:55 <hiemanshu> mchua: market it as something to try and look out for
20:52:56 <dramsey> nods
20:52:57 <mchua> So, authconfig ui, nfs, zarafa, bfo, btrfs... are folks happy with the list of 5?
20:53:02 <mchua> hiemanshu: yeah, that sounds about right
20:53:16 <hiemanshu> mchua: +1 from me on the list
20:53:17 <dramsey> +1 to mchua's list
20:53:20 <stickster> mchua: I'm still iffy about NFS -- can we knock that down to just NFSv4 by default?
20:53:28 <stickster> Actually never mind
20:53:29 <mchua> stickster: why the iffiness? Just hard to make it shiny?
20:53:42 <mchua> I'd take that as a challenge, btw ;)
20:53:44 <stickster> It won't make much of a difference to length, and it is brand new stuff.
20:53:48 <rbergeron> "look! a slightly newer version of something you've been using for years!" :)
20:53:58 <stickster> mchua: onward ho!
20:54:07 <mchua> I think that's an #agreed then. HOOYAH.
20:54:12 <stickster> disco
20:54:15 <dramsey> disco
20:54:20 * rbergeron notes that NFS is like... old faithful.
20:54:23 <mchua> #agreed Sysadmin talking points: authconfig ui, nfs (both points combined into one), zarafa, bfo, btrfs
20:54:28 <mchua> HIYAH
20:54:37 <hiemanshu> stickster: where are the lights and bear ?
20:54:44 <dramsey> :)  Smiles with "glee!"  :)
20:54:45 <mchua> Ok. Let's take a look at the non-features talking points real quick, and then spins, and then we'll be DONE!
20:54:46 <hiemanshu> beer even
20:54:47 <rbergeron> spins?
20:54:52 <wonderer> stickster: think more like a Marketeer and less as a sysadmin/Developer :-) NFS we can write good text around, so its fine with me ... even if I do not "like" that topic much either ;-)
20:54:59 * rbergeron notes everyone is already on their way to the bar :)
20:55:12 <wonderer> rbergeron: [*]3
20:55:24 <hiemanshu> rbergeron: cant expect any at 3 AM :(
20:55:25 <mchua> #topic non-feature talking points
20:55:28 <rbergeron> not all of us live in germany with beergardens, yo :)
20:55:29 <stickster> rbergeron: Before we go... slogan
20:55:36 <stickster> ah, and #topic too
20:55:36 <rbergeron> stickster: yes?
20:55:38 <mchua> stickster: and spins
20:55:43 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Talking_Points#Additional_points
20:55:44 <stickster> right on.
20:55:54 <mchua> So, I'd say we've got network manager stuff covered.
20:56:11 <mchua> (Also, remember: the more talking points we have, the more feature profiles we write. BWAHAHA- I mean, yay!)
20:56:19 <stickster> mchua: Let's get the spins out of the way, this is easy. There are four new spins that would be covered in our "new spins" area. Moblin, SoaS, Security, Design Suite.
20:56:27 <mchua> nmarques: welcome, btw - will send you backlog in a moment.
20:56:32 <mchua> stickster: disco.
20:56:42 <stickster> We would provide a link to each of those, and each of *their* pages already has a link back to the main spins.fp.o
20:57:00 <mchua> nmarques: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2010-02-23/fedora-meeting-1.2010-02-23-20.03.log.txt
20:57:14 <stickster> <eof/>
20:57:30 <mchua> stickster: ...that works, I think we're done with spins then if nobody else has objections.
20:57:36 * mchua says worksforme.
20:57:36 <rbergeron> could we maybe kind of backload the "color management" thing into Design suite?
20:57:36 <nmarques> mchua: thanks and /salute all
20:57:52 <rbergeron> assuming that's included.... :)
20:57:53 <hiemanshu> mchua: Bug report closed "Worksforme" ;)
20:58:05 <wonderer> we have 7 Spins. Do we want to include all? are there all new things in it?
20:58:08 <mchua> rbergeron: I like color management as a generic feature, but we should also make sure the design suite folks know to highlight it to their audience.
20:58:08 <rbergeron> "although part of F13, designers will especially luv the color mgmt feature"
20:58:11 <stickster> rbergeron: Well, it would make it difficult to tell that the color management isn't part of the platform you get by default
20:58:17 <hiemanshu> wonderer: *new* spins only
20:58:20 <stickster> s/isn't/is/
20:58:24 <stickster> sorry, I made it even more confusing :-)
20:58:30 * rbergeron is getting confuzzled.
20:58:35 <rbergeron> I think i know what you'er saying.
20:58:43 <mchua> Nah, we're good. We have 4 new spins, we're going to highlight 4 new spins, we're good with spins.
20:58:54 * mchua looks around in case anyone wants to counterpropose to that.
20:58:59 <stickster> rbergeron: If we talk about CM in conjunction with the new Spin, it immediately is harder to tell that the CM feature is part of the default platform.
20:59:10 * rbergeron nods
20:59:11 <stickster> mchua: I have a hard stop at 4pm
20:59:13 <mchua> Spins going in 3...
20:59:16 <mchua> 2...
20:59:16 <mchua> 1...
20:59:18 <wonderer> mchua: so wich ones are new? can we "mark" that also on the spins.fp.o page?
20:59:20 <rbergeron> stickster: that's in 30 seconds :)
20:59:24 <stickster> Yeah
20:59:32 <mchua> #agreed highlight 4 new spins: moblin, soas, design, security
20:59:39 <wonderer> ok.
20:59:42 <mchua> Aaaand the last point.
20:59:42 <rbergeron> stickster: can we take comments on release slogan stuff to mailing list?
20:59:45 <wonderer> eof
20:59:48 <mchua> rbergeron: +1
20:59:51 <stickster> wonderer: Good point, maybe hiemanshu can help there
20:59:55 <stickster> rbergeron: Yes
20:59:56 <mchua> rbergeron: I'll also be around to kick them off right after this meeting.
21:00:02 <rbergeron> okay, let's do that
21:00:11 <mchua> last point un-addressed in this meeting: experimental 3d in noveau.
21:00:14 <rbergeron> mchua: i did some prework, see the mail before you redo what i already did :)
21:00:17 <dramsey> +1
21:00:19 <stickster> Main points I want to make about slogan are short, sharp, verb, call to action, 1-3 words, related to "Goddard" and art.
21:00:26 <mchua> rbergeron: aye, was going to start with your email. :)
21:00:33 <stickster> We have reference materials from F12 we can use to help.
21:00:36 * rbergeron nods
21:00:45 * stickster suspects rbergeron knows what's up
21:00:46 <rbergeron> i put some of that stuff in the email template.
21:00:47 <stickster> :-)
21:00:59 <mchua> rbergeron is totally on top of things!
21:00:59 <stickster> I didn't get to read all of that page but it seemed to me to be on the right track.
21:01:08 <stickster> What else is new?!?
21:01:17 <stickster> All right, gotta run
21:01:18 * stickster &
21:01:19 <rbergeron> i need artwork clarification, and there are some action items relating to cleaning up the wiki, if anyone in the meeting wants something to work on. :)
21:01:32 <rbergeron> mchua can probably help out there with the artwork questions
21:01:48 <rbergeron> stickster: i do have the tl;dr writing tendency, also. :)
21:01:55 <mchua> I woud like to pass on noveau; it's only relevant to some people with some hardware, and I'm not sure what we'd do with it, exactly. Or... basically, I don't really see a compelling reason to pick it up.
21:02:03 <mchua> So I would say we're done with our talking points selection.
21:02:05 * mchua eyes the clock
21:02:08 <hiemanshu> wonderer: IIRC new ones arent even on the spins.fp.o website, when they are up, ping me, and i ll add a sticker to it "New' :)
21:02:16 <mchua> hiemanshu: nice idea!
21:02:32 <mchua> #idea add a "new" sticker to spins.fp.o site to point out new spins
21:02:41 <mchua> All right, we're running out of time.
21:02:42 <stickster> Well, I'm on a delay for my 4pm, so I'm here for a few more minutes :-)
21:02:46 <mchua> But we do have talking points!
21:02:57 <dramsey> +1 for talking points!
21:02:59 <mchua> 4 categories: developer, user, sysadmin, "spins" <-- new!
21:02:59 <stickster> mchua: Ah, thanks for bringing up my point.
21:03:08 <stickster> We *absolutely* want to have the free video drivers here.
21:03:19 <stickster> It's part of the *long view* of free software that individual features sometimes miss.
21:03:21 <wonderer> hiemanshu: if the from stickster mentioned spins page for the talking points is ready you can pin" a marker to the spins and marker them "nw in F13" or so.
21:03:22 <rbergeron> nouveau seems like a nice way to highlight FOSS stuffff.
21:03:33 <mchua> stickster: That pushes our "user" category to be big, though.
21:03:43 <stickster> mchua: The accelerating pace of 3D and better truly free video drivers is incredibly important to us as a Project
21:03:53 * mchua nods. I see the point though.
21:03:56 <hiemanshu> wonderer: Yes I can do that
21:04:00 <rbergeron> maybe it could be more like... "highlighting community righteousness" rather than "user category"
21:04:01 <rbergeron> ?
21:04:03 <jfalco> I don't think we can pass on nouveau, lots of people excited about that
21:04:08 <stickster> mchua: User category is... how many with free video?
21:04:10 <stickster> jfalco: +1.
21:04:18 <hiemanshu> stickster: IIRC its still experimental right
21:04:29 <rbergeron> The point name is
21:04:30 <rbergeron> Experimental 3D in Nouveau
21:04:34 <rbergeron> So it sounds like it :)
21:04:38 <stickster> hiemanshu: To approximately the same extent as ATI was in F12, yes
21:04:43 <wonderer> hiemanshu: http://www.bellabaeren.de/Bilder/Stecknadel_2%20Kopie.gif blue, a little bit smaller. If you need such in original fedora-blue, tell me ;-)
21:04:45 <mchua> so far: auto-print-drivers, langpacks, user management, color management, network manager improvements.
21:04:45 <mchua> so that makes 6 and rounds it out nicely.
21:04:52 <stickster> mchua: Done.
21:04:56 <rbergeron> mchua: can we link in spins to the F13 talking points pg??
21:05:01 <stickster> Thanks, this is really important for us to hold on to.
21:05:17 <hiemanshu> wonderer: ping me up tomorrow? I can do it then, as soon as the meeting is done I wanna crash, Really tired :)
21:05:17 <stickster> It's also a major differentiator where Fedora folks are making the difference between "freedom" and "no freedom"
21:05:23 <mchua> Sounds like we're +1 for nouveau.
21:05:26 <stickster> disco
21:05:28 <rbergeron> or add it to category column at least :)
21:05:31 <wonderer> hiemanshu: ack.
21:05:41 * rbergeron notes that somewhere, ponies are dancing under a disco ball
21:05:42 <mchua> #agreed Experimental 3D in Nouveau is also a User talking point.
21:05:54 <mchua> rbergeron: Do I see a tshirt design coming? ;)
21:06:09 <rbergeron> mchua: disco
21:06:10 <hiemanshu> mchua: DisplayPort?
21:06:19 <rbergeron> oh, displayport
21:06:20 <stickster> rbergeron: mchua: I want to see those ponies lined up just like that dance scene from "Boogie Nights"
21:06:29 <rbergeron> lol
21:06:39 <wonderer> .disco
21:06:44 <dramsey> disco
21:06:46 <wonderer> hmm, nothing happens :-)
21:06:53 <nmarques> why do I feel like an allien from outta space here :(
21:06:58 <wonderer> please ad this to ircbot ;-)
21:07:01 <stickster> mchua: What else was left?
21:07:16 <rbergeron> stickster, i watched that movie you watched, a serious man, last night. :)
21:07:17 <mchua> nmarques: Happy to translate after the meeting closes. :)
21:07:24 <mchua> nmarques: sometimes we get a little silly in here...
21:07:33 <mchua> stickster: I do believe we are done.
21:07:36 <wonderer> sometimes..? :-)
21:07:39 <stickster> mchua: Sweet.
21:07:40 <AamirBhutto> *Sometimes*
21:07:40 <rbergeron> nmarques: one hour, we move quick :) it takes a week or two to adjust to the chaos.
21:07:40 <mchua> #topic RECAP
21:07:42 <stickster> Let's remove to #fedora-mktg
21:07:43 <mchua> User: auto-print-drivers, langpacks, user management, color management, network manager improvements, nouveau.
21:07:49 <mchua> Dev: systemtap, python debugging, python3, netbeans
21:07:54 <mchua> Sysadmin: authconfig ui, nfs (both points combined into one), zarafa, bfo, btrfs
21:07:59 <mchua> Spins: moblin, soas, design, security
21:08:08 * mchua hits big red button: "That was easy."
21:08:17 <wonderer> claps hands
21:08:20 <dramsey> +1 for Talking Points!  :)
21:08:20 <mchua> Last-minute comments?
21:08:25 <mchua> Yay for talking points!
21:08:28 <rbergeron> mchua: what was the other:
21:08:29 <stickster> none here
21:08:30 <AamirBhutto> +1
21:08:34 <mchua> Thanks for coming and pitching in, everyone!
21:08:38 <rbergeron> oh, nm.
21:08:41 * rbergeron clear now. oh yes.
21:08:43 <hiemanshu> mchua: esp at odd times :P
21:08:49 * wonderer lets ponies dancing...
21:08:50 <mchua> And to AamirBhutto and rbergeron for drumming up the mailing list traffic (and blogifyin' us)
21:08:54 <dramsey> disco
21:08:57 <rbergeron> blog blog blog
21:09:15 <mchua> and hiemanshu and dramsey and wonderer braving the crazy time zones to join the hackfest ;)
21:09:24 <mchua> All righty, i think we are done here
21:09:37 <mchua> moving to #fedora-mktg and cleaning up notes and kicking off slogan and taking questions now
21:09:39 * wonderer moves over to #fedora-mktg
21:09:43 <mchua> closing in 3...
21:09:44 <mchua> 2...
21:09:45 <mchua> 1...
21:09:47 <mchua> 0.5...
21:09:49 <mchua> #endmeeting