19:00:30 #startmeeting 19:00:31 Meeting started Mon Mar 1 19:00:30 2010 UTC. The chair is kital. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:00:33 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 19:00:39 #chair susmit 19:00:40 Current chairs: kital susmit 19:00:43 #chair rsc 19:00:43 Current chairs: kital rsc susmit 19:00:56 #topic Roll Call 19:00:58 Susmit Shannigrahi 19:00:59 David Nalley 19:01:00 Joerg Simon 19:01:02 Robert Scheck 19:01:02 Paul Mellors 19:02:17 Ben Williams 19:02:22 John Rose 19:02:51 * tatica Maria Leandro 19:02:53 :D 19:02:54 hi tatica we have Roll Call for Mentoring Meeting 19:02:57 ah ok ;) 19:03:13 traffic is terrible today :\ sorry my delay 19:03:21 np tatica 19:03:30 so we have it 19:03:31 ... 19:03:33 3 19:03:37 2 19:03:42 hi 19:03:48 Francesco Ugolini 19:03:58 hi fugolini, tatica 19:03:59 fugolini: hi ;) just in time for Roll Call 19:04:08 susmit, hi :D 19:04:15 ok lets start 19:04:23 #topic agenda 19:04:48 All Mentors could add topics to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Mentors_TownHall_agenda 19:05:16 anyone another topic to add ? 19:05:39 of any other suggestion how we should the meeting run 19:05:40 ? 19:06:03 if not i will continue with the Agenda listed 19:06:07 3 19:06:08 not for me 19:06:20 2 19:06:30 1 19:06:39 #topic Mentors should have a really meaningful wiki page, right now some have nearly nothing at their wiki page 19:06:49 ! 19:06:52 rsc 19:07:13 Given that we expect a meaningful wiki page from our new ambassadors, we as mentors should be good examples IMHO. 19:07:16 EOF 19:07:23 ! 19:07:27 MooDoo: 19:07:47 what actually is meaningful? i've stuff on my page but is it enough? 19:07:59 ! 19:08:07 MooDoo: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Template:Userpage 19:08:23 is the minimum i guess - but i am open for more 19:08:27 rsc go ahead 19:08:36 MooDoo's wiki page is IMHO very meaningful, but some mentors have two sentences (or around that) on their wiki page. EOF 19:08:58 ! 19:09:00 inode0: 19:09:20 This is fine to encourage but isn't really a substantial problem with mentoring IMO 19:09:53 inode0: but should we mentors not lead by example ? 19:09:57 ! 19:10:00 rsc: 19:10:08 yes, so encourage us 19:10:27 In the past, I already was told by people who liked to get ambassadors, that other ambassadors don't have a meaningful wiki page and they didn't see the reason to make a meaningful one... 19:10:29 ! 19:10:32 EOF 19:10:48 rsc - this is a valid point! 19:10:49 Southern_Gentlem: 19:11:08 i use mine as an example of how your wiki page should not look 19:11:16 eof 19:11:19 hahaha Southern_Gentlem 19:12:21 can i have a +1 that https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Template:Userpage is the minimum what we as mentors should have and also the minimum that we expect from new candidates 19:12:25 ? 19:12:29 +1 19:12:35 +1 19:12:40 0 19:12:43 0 19:12:51 ! 19:12:54 MooDoo: 19:13:21 imho it's not enough, if we're mentors surely it should look like we took time out to give it a little love? 19:13:38 * ascenseur - apologies for being late (ascenseur) 19:13:40 EOF 19:14:18 MooDoo: you are right but we talk about a absolut minimum - i think Southern_Gentlem is on the opposite site 19:14:22 ? 19:14:29 ah ok +1 19:14:51 isn't that required for all ambassadors? 19:15:06 i will change mine 19:15:19 at least new ambassadors 19:15:20 MooDoo, we can always use peer pressure after the minimum. ;) 19:15:26 lol 19:15:35 inode0: yes - but mentors were confronted with bad mentors personal wiki pages 19:15:35 * fugolini 'll try to improve his one. 19:15:45 Southern_Gentlem: thanks ;) 19:16:10 so i think we can have a consense 19:16:42 #agreed the https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Template:Userpage also applies for Mentors 19:16:49 #undo 19:16:49 Removing item from minutes: 19:17:00 #agreed the https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Template:Userpage also applies for Mentors as a minimum for the personal Wiki Page 19:17:15 next topic in 19:17:16 3 19:17:21 * susmit thinks kital is a perfectionist ;) 19:17:32 susmit: ;) 19:17:34 a very nice perfectionist ;-) 19:17:39 * Southern_Gentlem thats why he is the best in the position 19:17:47 * kital blushes 19:17:52 2 19:17:59 1 19:18:16 #topic Event experience needs to be a hard requirement to get a mentor. Mentors need to proof in real-life not in IRC only 19:18:38 i think this is because of the decission we made for MooDoo 19:18:45 -1 19:18:50 ! 19:18:52 I disagree strongly with this 19:18:54 but i think MooDoo you attended a event last week? 19:19:02 rsc: 19:19:06 no it's in a couple of weeks 19:19:14 MooDoo: ah ok 19:19:15 ;) 19:19:31 we somehow expect, that our ambassadors attend to events and get in touch with people...why shouldn't mentors do that as well?! 19:19:40 ! 19:19:44 Southern_Gentlem: 19:20:06 On the other hand, I've got enough questions regarding events from unknowledged ambassadors asking regarding event and help and information. Without having knowledge, I would be able to help them. EOF 19:20:30 rsc +1, I was just typing that. 19:20:38 +1 rsc 19:20:41 dealing with people in any fashion, that people can tell your temperment and how you deal with people even the hardest people to deal with transforms across irc and emails and at events 19:20:53 ! 19:21:05 to me this is BS 19:21:09 eof 19:21:15 MooDoo: 19:21:40 events? fedora specific? foss? or just any old event you go to? linux ones i mean 19:22:02 eif? 19:22:05 eof 19:22:34 i think Ambassadors duties on an event are meant 19:22:41 how to apply for swag 19:22:43 for money 19:22:50 dealing with event organizers 19:22:52 ... 19:22:52 rrright. 19:22:53 ! 19:23:01 Southern_Gentlem: 19:23:11 ! 19:23:25 fugolini: after Southern_Gentlem 19:23:35 kital, s/dealing with/being an/ ? 19:23:58 if that already on the wiki, I make my mentorees give me the url of how to get swag and the url for the page son organizeing an event and event reports 19:24:01 eol 19:24:11 ! 19:24:18 ! 19:24:24 fugolini: go on 19:24:30 I agree with kital statement. Even actually I need to start my mentoring activity 19:24:48 I want to remember the reason we started ambassadors 19:25:06 is it only about events and swag? 19:25:10 to handle events. I think we need some basics on event organizations 19:25:24 inode0: about people interaction 19:25:32 I think we are free to set the standars 19:25:41 susmit: after fugolini 19:25:43 right, going to FOSDEM is nice, should never be a hard requirement 19:25:50 and I'm sure there are people able to guide people without being in all events 19:25:51 ! 19:25:54 eof 19:26:11 susmit: go ahead 19:26:16 rsc after susmit 19:26:30 I think the whole point of this is to ensure the mentors can help new applicants with event organizations. Links are absolutely fine IMO, but there is no replacement for experience. It is not that you *have* to attend this many events/year. But event is an important activity that ambassadors undertake, and the mentors should really be aware of the problems that may come regarding the events. 19:26:52 eof 19:27:23 ? 19:27:25 rsc: go ahead 19:27:26 From my point of view, mentors are knowledged contributors. When thinking to the technical people, why should somebody get "provenpackager" while he isn't "packager" and has nothing proofed at all? I don't expect, that mentors attend all events, but they should have at least attended some ones to have experience they can pass on. 19:27:31 EOF. 19:27:41 Southern_Gentlem: 19:27:46 ! 19:27:51 inode0: after Southern_Gentlem 19:28:42 fugolini, i agree with you it is about people interaction period. i would rather see someone in irc before working the booth with them myself and 19:29:26 susmit, no new person should be organizing an event in my opinion there should be another ambassador to help with that as well 19:29:28 eof 19:29:38 Is this meeting about long-term mentoring? Or about the initial process where new ambassadors get into the group to begin with? Because for the latter case I think having event experience is only marginally important. 19:29:53 Southern_Gentlem: good point 19:30:06 ! 19:30:38 inode0: it is about the topics, questions, concerns ... you all could add to the agenda 19:30:53 that doesn't answer my question 19:30:57 inode0: i think longterm is another important topic we should add to the next agenda 19:31:02 MooDoo: is next 19:32:26 inode0: There was the concern that a Mentor should have Event Expirience 19:32:31 i think i just want to be clear about the definition of event? are we talking about fudcons and fad, and the booth at lets say scale? 19:33:03 i mean i've been to 3 or 4 lug radio lives and that's an event 19:33:08 EOF 19:33:12 event experience is not a hard requirement for becoming a Ambassador but some Mentors think it is important for a mentor 19:33:28 ! 19:33:36 ! 19:33:44 inode0: is this a answer to your question? 19:34:03 Southern_Gentlem: one moment please 19:34:18 ke4qqq: seen it - one moment please 19:34:24 no, it doesn't. I agree it is important for some mentors 19:34:39 I don't think it is important for mentoring people into the project though 19:35:00 once they are in and are doing something with an event it becomes important 19:35:35 inode0: we have regional mentoring because we think it is easier to connect to the community, right? 19:36:00 inode0: and we agree that mentoring does not end with the sponsoring, right? 19:36:56 depends, as a mentor of a new ambassador I am not necessarily tied to this person for life 19:37:12 others can mentor at various stages, that is how it has always worked 19:37:17 inode0: this is how it works in the packaging group 19:37:36 are we the packaging group 19:37:36 if you break a package your sponsor has to repair it 19:37:49 Southern_Gentlem: right 19:37:52 Southern_Gentlem: go on 19:37:58 which is why I am asking if we are meeting to discuss mentoring in the abstract, or whether we are talking about the initial mentoring that began last year 19:37:59 ke4qqq: after Southern_Gentlem 19:39:15 kital i am sorry we have wasted 30+ minutes on what i am considering to this point a witch hunt that should not happen 19:39:30 inode0: we discuss a concrete topic - a new mentor has to be proposed by a current Mentor 19:40:00 Southern_Gentlem: ke4qqq you are the last on this topic before i want a final vote 19:40:11 it is the personality of the person matters, a jerk on IRC, email or whatever will be a jerk at a booth 19:40:12 eol 19:40:24 kital: disregard my ! 19:40:36 ! 19:40:48 ok final vote on - A new Mentor should have Event Expirience! 19:40:53 -1 19:40:55 +1 19:40:55 +1 19:40:58 -1 19:40:59 +1 19:40:59 +1 19:41:08 -1 19:41:33 * fugolini doesn't know if his vote could be count, since is not active 19:41:40 quorum goes to "A new Mentor should have Event Expirience!" 19:41:40 * ke4qqq wonders what influence this vote holds after famsco already has approved guidelines for mentors 19:41:46 * fugolini *propely 19:42:18 +1 19:42:19 ke4qqq, ??? 19:42:21 ke4qqq: these means only that we have no consense 19:42:34 ascenseur, are you a mentor? 19:42:37 kital: ok 19:42:54 ke4qqq, which guideline? link please? 19:42:55 Apologies Southern_Gentlem! no, i am not 19:43:07 did i get my timezones incorrect again? 19:43:08 susmit: hang on I'll find the meeting notes 19:43:27 next topic 19:43:47 in 3 19:43:49 -1 19:44:08 loupgaroublond, should a new mentor have to have event experience ? 19:45:00 i wouldn't make that a hard requirement, per se, but it's really hard to be a good mentor without it 19:45:30 we can list 50 other things it is hard to be a good mentor without too :) 19:45:30 vote yes for it being a requirment or -1 for it not to be 19:45:31 ok we will not find a solution today - i would suggest that rsc and inode0 should work out the pro and contra and we vote again next mentors meeting next month? 19:45:43 -1 19:45:44 * lcafiero slips into the back door and sits down in the back of the room 19:45:59 ! 19:46:01 Southern_Gentlem: 19:46:24 i suggest to best thing to do with this issue is drop it 19:46:30 why vote again - the nays have it? 19:46:57 ke4qqq, equal both ways... 19:47:25 has tatica voted? 19:47:31 lcafiero, should event exipernece be a requirment to be a mentor 19:47:45 Define event 19:47:45 0 (I have 2 thoughts on this issue ) 19:47:58 susmit: if we only count mentors - I see it as nays having it - after inodes vote 19:48:03 it depends of what is going to do this ambassador 19:48:04 please turn back to meeting-guidelines 19:48:12 Meaning expo type event or just addressing lug or organizing local events? 19:48:20 ascenseur voted but isn't a mentor 19:48:35 ke4qqq, 4/4 each way..am i wrong? 19:48:40 i vote yes 19:48:47 not sure if i'm officially a mentor 19:48:56 just a moment 19:49:00 ! 19:49:02 susmit: I don't know - perhaps I am wrong - /me requests chair to roll call vote 19:49:11 as long as we're in a rule making mood, i think it's a fair rule 19:49:23 * inode0 observes a clear regional difference of opinion and asks for it not to be decided by a vote today 19:49:30 i would rather not have rules at all, but if it helps you guys define a target people can use to reach to become a member, it seems fair 19:49:36 ok stop all 19:49:38 ! 19:49:46 but that's just my 0.02 EUR 19:49:53 STOP 19:49:57 ! 19:50:43 rsc and inode0 are you willing to invest a bit time on this 19:50:44 ? 19:51:10 if yes bring pro and contras to the next meeting - so we can have a final vote 19:51:13 next topic 19:51:17 I am happy to talk about it with rsc or others 19:51:27 thanks ;) 19:51:33 rsc? 19:51:44 inode0: okay, but not the next 14 days or so ;) 19:52:06 ping me when it is convenient for you 19:52:08 #action rsc and inode0 prepare a draft for vote till next meeting in one month 19:52:15 #undo 19:52:16 Removing item from minutes: 19:52:29 inode0: fine. Because I've some busy days following from tomorrow. 19:52:33 #action rsc and inode0 prepare a draft for vote on event requirement till next meeting in one month 19:53:42 #topic Talk with parents of underaged new Fedora contributors, explain them, what we're doing and that we're not worse etc.? 19:54:05 should we add a letter to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/MembershipService ? 19:54:28 +1 - sounds like a good idea 19:54:35 ! 19:54:47 rsc: 19:55:17 ! 19:55:28 In fact there are parents caring about their children. So we should tell them, that we're doing nothing illegal, that we won't make their kids drunk etc. And maybe we should explain Linux and Fedora somehow as well, because parents usually know "Windows" or "Mac OS X" 19:55:37 EOF 19:55:45 ! 19:55:58 MooDoo: 19:56:08 ! 19:56:14 ascenseur: after MooDoo 19:56:26 ok letters are all well and good, but what about getting a little more personal? phone call? if they are close enough a visit? 19:56:31 ! 19:56:37 +1 for moodoo's idea 19:57:01 for everyones benefit, ascenseur is a minor who went through the process 19:57:08 eof 19:57:12 ascenseur falls in to that definition. so we should listen to him 19:57:13 MooDoo: +1 - but given that there's interest on parent's side of course 19:57:22 MooDoo: good point i think this can be done if the first contact is made 19:57:37 bochecha: 19:57:46 kital - !! 19:57:48 kital, ascenseur asked to speak before me 19:57:52 ascenseur: you are eof? 19:58:01 kital - I didn't speak 19:58:02 20:56 < kital> ascenseur: after MooDoo 19:58:17 * MooDoo is eof 19:58:36 ascenseur: move on 19:59:07 Thank you - As susmit said, I fall into the "minor category"... Now, I know that the Ambassadors don't usually have people under the age of 18, but I agree something should be in place 19:59:09 $dayjob 19:59:31 ascenseur: would your parents have welcomed a phone call/visit? 19:59:51 just to let them know we don't have 4 heas? 19:59:56 s/heas/heads 20:00:03 MooDoo - yes, my mother would have, although rsc was too far away 20:00:25 He did an excellent job of emailing my mother and explaining, however, It was something I had to request 20:00:44 ascenseur: i will take this to famsco 20:00:47 rsc - would it be possible to use your email as a template? It explained everything well 20:00:55 ascenseur: eof? 20:01:00 eof 20:01:02 bochecha: 20:01:49 on one event in France, I was contacted by the mother of one of our most proheminent contributors, because they live in Belgium and he was minor at this time (which no one among us actually knew :) 20:02:15 basically, she didn't really want to know what it is we do in Fedora... she wanted to be reassured about what we were going to do *during this particular week end* 20:02:43 also, about : MooDoo - yes, my mother would have, although rsc was too far away 20:02:54 this might be a good call for localising more the mentors... 20:02:55 eof 20:02:56 #action kital establish a regional contact for people under the age of 18 20:03:18 bochecha: i would have gone and seen them but i wasn't a mentor at the time 20:03:21 #undo 20:03:22 Removing item from minutes: 20:03:42 #action kital establish a regional contact - parents can call - for people under the age of 18 20:04:04 MooDoo, I'm not a mentor, and his mother didn't really care about that, she wanted someone older and make sure he was responsible enough for her son :) 20:04:16 ah ok 20:04:22 * lcafiero volunteers to be a regional contact in NA 20:04:25 #action rsc forwards his e-mail to kital as an inspiration 20:04:25 should we also add a letter to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/MembershipService i had a +1 from rsc 20:04:40 +1 for letter 20:04:52 yeah 20:05:49 ok we covered not all topics today 20:05:55 one last thing 20:06:31 #topic Ambassador dispute resolution - Mentor - Mentee 20:06:42 ! 20:06:46 susmit: 20:06:53 +1 to susmit's proposal :) 20:07:11 kital, I shall really like to have discussion about the penultimate item. 20:07:16 ! 20:07:26 inode0: link? :) 20:07:44 # Setup a mechanism for implementing first filter. That should not take much time and we will finish all the works at hand. 20:07:45 EOF 20:07:46 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/dispute_resolution 20:08:43 susmit: ok we will proceed with it after this topic 20:08:51 kital, thanks 20:09:51 if you have suggestions feel free to mail susmit 20:10:14 a better option will be editing the wiki directly :) 20:10:18 so we can move on to the next 20:10:33 susmit: - i am not sure about this 20:10:44 because this is a famsco proposal - 20:11:07 and i think we should take the suggestions 20:11:15 but let's hear what mentor's, who will implement this, feel about it. 20:11:59 sure - mentors what do you think about https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/dispute_resolution 20:12:06 i saw a +1 from inode0 20:12:16 bochecha: 20:12:17 ! 20:12:24 kital, no..I meant the last item...oops...sorry for the confusion 20:12:26 MooDoo: after bochecha 20:12:32 screv: ok 20:12:48 ! 20:12:49 well, the first item (the mentor and mentee speak on irc) seems weird to me 20:13:08 I mean, shouldn't they have spoken on irc way before something goes wrong, just when getting in touch with each other ? 20:13:10 eof 20:13:39 ! 20:13:40 MooDoo: 20:13:51 MooDoo: 20:14:08 (at least, I've been allowed to mentor two ambassadors even if I'm not a mentor, and IRC discussions played a big part in the mentoring process :) 20:14:11 mine was also clarification on point one, one to one, with a moderator? ? 20:14:24 i didn't like to say witness 20:14:26 eof 20:14:30 lcafiero: 20:14:55 I think it's fine: The key phrasing is at the beginning -- "This policy is for special cases only. It will not to be used unless really needed." 20:15:17 I would imagine that a situation where this would come up would border on extreme. 20:15:22 eof 20:15:33 MooDoo: maybe another neutral Mentor from another region could be moderator 20:15:37 rsc: 20:15:42 Getting in touch with each other doesn't necessarily happen on IRC, because of work shiftings or $whatelse. So a talk on IRC or via VoIP should be something that definately should happen before escalating somehow. 20:15:43 kital: +1 on that 20:15:46 EOF. 20:15:55 kital: +1 for that idea, too 20:16:41 bochecha, the idea was to make sure in case they have not talked on irc yet. Highly improbable, but possible, 20:17:41 susmit: adding a (neutral mentor) moderated meeting 20:17:48 would make sense? 20:18:08 kital ok..let's the first meeting be so. I shall update it. 20:18:14 super ;) 20:18:58 #agreed one to one IRC chat should be moderated by a neutral mentor 20:19:13 next (last) topic 20:19:16 in 20:19:17 3 20:19:20 2 20:19:32 1 20:19:36 #topic Setup a mechanism for implementing first filter 20:19:45 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Welcome_Message_To_New_Ambassadors 20:20:08 ! 20:20:32 inode0: 20:20:44 To me this is a crucial topic 20:21:06 Many of us see 90% or more of first contacts drop out wasting our time and energy 20:21:49 ! 20:21:55 I would love to see something like this email go to applicants to get them to think carefully about the commitment they are undertaking before contacting a mentor 20:21:55 inode0: eof? 20:21:59 ups ;) 20:22:09 eof 20:22:13