20:21:27 <mchua> #startmeeting
20:21:28 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Apr 27 20:21:27 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:21:30 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:21:31 <mchua> #chair gbinns
20:21:33 <zodbot> Current chairs: gbinns mchua
20:21:49 <mchua> I'll ask someone in infra to edit the logs later so it's one seamless meeting. Let's keep going. :)
20:22:08 <quaid> #link July or August - Alolita will be picking the date with Tony
20:22:08 <quaid> Wasserman (of CMU) when Tony gets back on the continent at the end of
20:22:08 <gbinns> ok, sorry, i am a noob with meeting commands, mchua could you show me the proper syntax for #link?
20:22:15 <stickster> #meetingname Fedora Marketing
20:22:16 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_marketing'
20:22:16 <quaid> sorry :) bad paste
20:22:24 <stickster> gbinns: It's just '#link <URL>'
20:22:37 <gbinns> stickster: thanks! :)
20:22:47 <gbinns> #link https://fedoraproject.org/awstats/fedoraproject.org/awstats.fedoraproject.org.urldetail.html
20:23:27 <gbinns> ok, now one major issue with regard to our top pages, is that several all have the same <title> tag
20:24:15 <gbinns> we will want to recommend keyword/key phrase changes for each page so that when changing the tag to something page specific, we can work for that priority placement on search engines for that term
20:24:41 <gbinns> for example, we may want to consider optimized our Get Fedora page for the word "linux download"
20:25:02 <gbinns> that receives approximately 1.2 million global searches a month on google
20:25:21 <mchua> !
20:25:47 <gbinns> we are nowwhere to be found on the first page of google results for that term
20:25:54 <gbinns> http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GPCK_enUS374US374&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=linux+download
20:26:58 <nmarques> we are top10
20:27:00 <gbinns> (as an aside, a link to redhat.com appears on the first page - on that page is a link to fedora, it is only to the homepage of fedora, to increase usability and shorten hops i would recommend linking from redhat.com directly to the download page)
20:27:04 <nmarques> at least on my query
20:27:18 <threethirty> nmarques: log out of google and then do the search
20:27:34 <nmarques> I am not logged in
20:27:34 <AamirBhutto> Not on the second page too
20:27:56 <nmarques> I get redhat in 5th and Fedora in 7th
20:28:08 <nmarques> unless google displays different stuff according to location
20:28:12 <EvilBob> your country's google may be different than anothers
20:28:39 <gbinns> yes, google will display different results based on location
20:28:48 <gbinns> "geo-targeting"
20:29:15 <gbinns> now, one of the challenges here i think is going to be agreeing on what terms to optimize each page for
20:29:39 <gbinns> there is also going to be some cross over between teams, e.g. websites and marketing - possibly docs and admin
20:29:42 * rbergeron nods
20:29:58 <threethirty> is there a limit on kwywords?
20:30:04 * mchua nods. gbinns, I'm glad you're here. :)
20:30:18 <nmarques> gbinns, I do have a stupid question
20:30:20 <gbinns> threethirty: you either want to optimize a page for one keyword or a keyphrase of two to three words
20:30:29 <nmarques> gbinns, we talking in keywords in the scope of meta-keys ?
20:30:31 <gbinns> nmarques: ask away, there are no stupid questions!
20:30:31 <threethirty> gbinns: ahh ok ty
20:30:52 <gbinns> nmarques: yes, but only with the meta-description tag, the meta-keywords tag is now deprecated
20:31:43 <nmarques> gbinns, thx
20:32:06 <gbinns> the other tags that are going to come into play are <title> <h1,h2,h3,etc.> <strong>, and attributes such as "alt" and "title"
20:32:29 <gbinns> anchor text is also important (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_text)
20:33:46 <gbinns> so, in closing, if anyone wants to participate you are *more than welcome* - please just let me know
20:34:21 * rbergeron is so glad gbinns came along :)
20:34:24 <gbinns> lastly, i have a question, which is, does anyone have a suggestion for getting approval on keywords for different pages?
20:34:37 <nmarques> gbinns, what is required to participate ?
20:34:46 <gbinns> for example, the download page would be a page i would recommend to optimize with the keyphrase "linux download"
20:35:11 <gbinns> but how do we streamline this so we can efficiently determine if there are any objections to that from the get-go so we can then possibly move to another term if necessary?
20:35:15 <threethirty> sounds like we need a keywords SOP
20:35:40 <rrix> hey all
20:36:03 <gbinns> threethirty: agreed
20:36:21 <AamirBhutto> Hi rrix
20:36:21 <gbinns> another example, the homepage only mentions the word "Linux" once
20:36:31 <ke4qqq> gbinns: take a section of pages - put links to them on a wiki page - along with terms, then post it as a proposal to mktg and websites lists
20:36:33 <mchua> #idea keywords SOP
20:36:58 <stickster> mchua: We'll want to integrate something like that as a Websites SOP -- since they generally care for the actual code
20:36:58 <ke4qqq> gbinns: then wait for comments and flames :)
20:36:58 <EvilBob> a keyword czar
20:36:59 <gbinns> we could further optimize that page with the word "linux" and increase our result placement
20:37:13 * stickster sees ke4qqq comment above and sees he has it covered :-)
20:37:28 <gbinns> stickster: cool, yes, and i can definitely write the code and submit it for approval
20:37:32 <stickster> gbinns: We'll want to make sure we're keeping in mind the future state of the fp.o main page too.
20:37:43 <gbinns> ke4qqq: that's a good idea too
20:37:44 <nmarques> gbinns, we aiming for google only ? many search engines use very diferent indexing for the searches
20:37:45 <stickster> The page that's there now is not the one planned for next release.
20:38:02 <mchua> stickster: Gotcha.
20:38:11 <gbinns> stickster: ok, yes, and that's especially an area where i wouldn't be as familiar with best practices
20:38:17 <gbinns> but my main point is
20:38:18 <nmarques> gbinns, and google is a bad example... something that might work with google might not work so good with other search engines, specially those not focused on "advertising"
20:39:08 <nmarques> gbinns, the distance between words on the same sentence, the placement of words on paragraphs
20:39:24 <nmarques> gbinns, all of that is treated in a very different way to rank pages from engine to engine
20:39:41 <gbinns> nmarques: google dwarfs the other search engines, it is a best practice to optimize for them, they also feed search for several other large size, by optimizing for them you will inherently rank well on others (yahoo, bing)
20:39:43 <EvilBob> Some in the past would give a penalty if you had a "keyword" that was not in the "content" of the site, others will give a penalty for "keyword loading" content.
20:40:18 <gbinns> EvilBob: yes, i am very familiar and only follow white-hat techniques, it will not be an issue
20:40:39 <gbinns> stickster: i've started learning about branches from sijis, thanks for reminding me
20:40:43 <EvilBob> the point is, you can't win
20:41:09 <EvilBob> all we can do is try and hope
20:41:21 <gbinns> EvilBob: yes, follow best practices and we will see results
20:41:27 <ke4qqq> I can I suppose
20:41:37 <ke4qqq> bah wrong window
20:41:47 * mchua chuckles
20:41:50 <gbinns> my main point is (this is to all) do a search for "linux" and "linux download" and tell me what distro is at the top
20:42:06 <gbinns> there is no reason why we shouldn't be up there either
20:42:14 <nmarques> but we are ;)
20:42:41 <AamirBhutto> Ubnutu
20:42:52 <AamirBhutto> after linux.com/linux page
20:43:01 <gbinns> nmarques: you are seeing a targeted result
20:43:07 <ke4qqq> we are below the fold :(
20:43:34 <gbinns> realistically, after our efforts we may not be at the top of the page still for either of those phrases
20:43:55 <gbinns> however, i can assure you that for others we most certainly can and will
20:44:10 <gbinns> those are just two high traffic keywords, and we have tons of pages that receive high traffic
20:44:50 <AamirBhutto> +1
20:45:00 <AamirBhutto> we should try this.
20:45:10 <gbinns> linux server and linux how to both receive 1million+ global searches each month
20:45:19 <gbinns> other words/phrases still receive a ton
20:45:34 <EvilBob> WOW
20:45:56 <gbinns> +500k: install linux, linux software, linux file, linux command
20:46:55 <gbinns> that is all - if we can streamline the approval of words/phrases, we can make a lot of progress
20:47:35 <mchua> gbinns: so, I am looking at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Keyword_optimization#Next_Actions
20:47:43 <mchua> when do we start and how can we help? ;)
20:48:23 <gbinns> mchua: let's settle on a standard operating procedure for getting keywords approved for pages, and then let's start ASAP
20:48:25 <ke4qqq> gbinns - are the tools (like kw suggestion tool) FLOSS?
20:48:30 <mchua> there's a ton of great stuff we can do here (I am in awe of this - tons of stuff I've never thought of before), but I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed as to where exactly to start
20:48:35 * mchua nods
20:48:43 <mchua> #note first action: figure out a keyword selection SOP.
20:49:39 <gbinns> i think stickster mentioned the mailing lists - we can definitely touch a lot of people with that
20:49:40 <nmarques> I would like to be involved in this
20:49:51 <mchua> you're in the right place then. :)
20:50:14 <nmarques> since this is nice grounds which stimulate manipulation
20:50:16 <mchua> gbinns: do you have everything you need to figure out a keyword selection SOP, or are there any things we can clear up here - questions you had, etc?
20:50:31 <gbinns> how do we handle objections, how do we know if we should overrule an objection, should everyone agree or we change the word?
20:50:34 * mchua scratches head. manipulation?
20:50:36 <ke4qqq> gbinns: so my concern is that we make sure this becomes documented - and doesn't become opaque in the process.
20:50:46 <gbinns> ke4qqq: absolutely, i will document
20:51:13 <gbinns> mchua: you read my mind regarding questions!
20:51:15 * nmarques manipulation as in manipulating contents for a purpose
20:51:37 <ke4qqq> gbinns: consensus is a good rule of thumb - work on the maximum effect. Those for which there isn't consensus - strive to find out if it's bikeshedding or if there is a real problem.
20:51:55 <gbinns> ke4qqq: ok
20:52:10 <ke4qqq> I doubt you'll find any real arguments
20:52:22 <ke4qqq> but I am wrong pretty regularly
20:52:25 <ke4qqq> :)
20:52:25 <gbinns> also, what is an ample amount of time for collecting feedback? for example, let's say we want to optimize the download page, if it's been 3 days and no one has objected is that okay?
20:52:34 <mchua> nmarques: ah, okay. :) I think the word comes out with a negative connotation for native English speakers, so I head-scratched a bit.
20:52:39 <mchua> gbinns: I think a week is a pretty good rule of thumb.
20:52:54 <mchua> gbinns: depends also on (1) the magnitude of change you want to make and (2) if it's easily reversible.
20:52:54 <ke4qqq> +1 for a week - including at least one full weekend
20:53:06 <gbinns> mchua: ke4qqq: agreed
20:53:15 <mchua> gbinns: for instance, changes to our websites - since websites are versioned are *very* easy to revert.
20:53:24 <gbinns> mchua: ok
20:53:40 <ke4qqq> but during freezes those changes aren't easy to revert
20:53:41 <nmarques> gbinns, I think this is great, anything I can help with, I'll make time for it
20:54:05 * mchua hunts for infrastructure freeze schedule
20:54:06 <ke4qqq> and if it's anything like docs.fp.o it's non-trivial once it's been pushed
20:54:19 <mchua> ke4qqq: ah, right. I was thinking mainly of websites.
20:54:32 <gbinns> ke4qqq: regarding keyword research, there are many free tools out there, i'm not sure regarding FOSS
20:55:21 <ke4qqq> mchua: yes, but what process does websites.fp.o use - it's hundred of MB that has to be synced I'd think - it's not change a single file on a webserver. at least I think.
20:55:34 <ke4qqq> once it's been pushed. If it's still in version control - no big deal
20:56:56 <mchua> ke4qqq: hm, I don't know. i mean, we're pushing changes directly to spins.fp.o right now, but... it's worth checking.
20:56:58 <gbinns> i will prepare an SOP as my next to-do item
20:57:10 <mchua> #action mchua find out how much effort/time it takes to push/rollback websites changes
20:57:16 <mchua> need to figure that out for the spins webpage sop anyway.
20:57:18 <ke4qqq> mchua: as I noted, I am frequently wrong - this may be one of those occurrences :)
20:57:31 <mchua> #action gbinns to prepare a keyword selection sop
20:57:43 <gbinns> mchua: thanks, you beat me to it!
20:57:55 <mchua> gbinns: awesome! we have a template at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Creating_a_Marketing_SOP
20:58:02 <gbinns> ok, with regard to everyone participating as of now, can we get a final tally?
20:58:14 <mchua> gbinns: (but only use it if it's helpful, if it makes things more confusing just skip it and we'll start with what you've got. ;)
20:58:30 <gbinns> mchua: thanks! i will check that out!
20:58:32 <mchua> nmarques, rbergeron ^
20:58:35 * rbergeron can pipe in with help but is pretty much up to her ears in stuff and is learning to just say no :)
20:58:43 <rbergeron> but will do what i can!
20:59:02 <mchua> gbinns: I'm in the same boat as rbergeron - busy with deliverables for the next few weeks, but will do what I can to help.
20:59:06 <gbinns> awesome
20:59:08 * rbergeron will be free-er in a few weeks.
20:59:35 <gbinns> no worries, i completely understand - an all, if something comes up and any of you don't have time it's *no problem*
20:59:51 <gbinns> and all*
20:59:53 <nmarques> mchua, I will help with what I can, though I'm not very sure on what needs to be done
21:00:21 <nmarques> mchua, gbinns has placed a very interesting challenging, I'll help with what I can
21:00:27 <gbinns> we'll work together and contribute where we can - things will get done and we'll work as a team
21:00:41 <nmarques> *challenge
21:00:50 <mchua> w00t.
21:00:52 <gbinns> ok that's all for the keyword optimization on my end - i'll work on the SOP
21:01:03 <mchua> and we can discuss zonker's class on the list. :)
21:01:08 <gbinns> everyone feel free to /msg or email me with any questions
21:01:16 * mchua wanted to have a good keyword discussion today, so this == awesome
21:01:22 <mchua> gbinns: thanks so much for kicking this off!
21:01:23 <gbinns> also feel free to post them to the wiki
21:01:28 <gbinns> mchua: np!
21:01:37 <mchua> #info anyone interested in keyword optimization, poke gbinns (or the mailing list, or edit the wiki)
21:01:52 <gbinns> thanks all for your questions, participation, comments, and suggestions
21:02:06 <AamirBhutto> Thanks gbinns
21:02:07 <ke4qqq> gbinns: thanks for jumping in with this
21:02:34 <gbinns> ke4qqq: AamirBhutto: yw!
21:02:58 <mchua> okeydokey.
21:03:06 <mchua> anything else? otherwise, this meeting is a wrap. :)
21:03:20 <AamirBhutto> Ummm
21:03:21 <rbergeron> mchua: can we bucket the "what did we learn from talking to jzb" to next week's meeting?
21:03:27 <rbergeron> since we're over
21:03:28 <mchua> rbergeron: yes.
21:03:38 <mchua> rbergeron: I will put that on the trac queue for our agenda next week.
21:03:40 <rbergeron> let's make sure everyone gets a log of that for those who couldn't attend.
21:03:46 <rbergeron> if it isn't already out
21:03:50 <mchua> rbergeron: already done ;)
21:04:03 <mchua> ok! I'm going to wrap the meeting.
21:04:07 * mchua looks around for objections
21:04:09 <mchua> thanks, everyone!
21:04:14 <mchua> aaaaand countdown in 5...
21:04:15 <mchua> 4...
21:04:17 <mchua> ianweller: jetpack!
21:04:19 <mchua> 3...
21:04:20 <mchua> 2...
21:04:22 <mchua> 1...
21:04:32 <mchua> aww, no ianweller jetpack. oh well. next week. :)
21:04:38 * mchua blasts off
21:04:41 <mchua> #endmeeting