20:00:51 <rrix> #startmeeting
20:00:51 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Aug  3 20:00:51 2010 UTC.  The chair is rrix. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:00:51 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:00:51 * ke4qqq is here
20:01:04 <rrix> #topic Fedora Marketing - Weekly Meeting, the Talking POints edition
20:01:38 <rrix> anyone elseee?
20:02:31 <rrix> hai stickster :)
20:03:10 * stickster here!
20:03:30 <rrix> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_14_Talking_Points
20:04:01 <rrix> Do we want to start with just the three of us then?
20:04:08 <stickster> rrix: Yes, let's go ahead
20:04:12 <rrix> Okiedoke
20:04:36 <rrix> Shall we start with desktop/regular users?
20:04:48 <stickster> Sure
20:04:53 <rrix> #topic GNOME 3
20:05:06 * ke4qqq thought gnome 3 was a bit longer in coming
20:05:08 * stickster refers to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/14/FeatureList for bigger list of features
20:05:18 <stickster> #info I just removed GNOME 3 from the list
20:05:23 <rrix> As much as I want to say yes on this, Rodrigo is right... it's really *cant* be
20:05:29 <rrix> ah, good :)
20:05:34 <rrix> That was easy :)
20:05:44 <rrix> Next! :)
20:05:52 <rrix> #topic KDE 45
20:05:54 <stickster> rrix: Hang on
20:05:58 <rrix> Oh
20:06:04 <rrix> #undo
20:06:04 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x11457e10>
20:06:06 <stickster> :-)
20:06:12 * rrix jumping the gun
20:06:20 <rrix> hehe
20:06:35 <stickster> I wanted to interject that we should be looking to the Desktop SIG to give us some pointers as to what will be different in GNOME 2.32 which I think will fill the next release slot
20:06:47 <stickster> There may be some upstream features that Fedora contributors on that team are working on
20:06:56 <rrix> ooh, yes
20:06:59 <rrix> #chair stickster
20:06:59 <zodbot> Current chairs: rrix stickster
20:07:03 <rrix> #chair ke4qqq
20:07:03 <zodbot> Current chairs: ke4qqq rrix stickster
20:07:06 <rrix> btw
20:07:09 <ke4qqq> yes, we should fire off an email methinks
20:07:10 <stickster> #info I sent an email to the desktop list earlier about this, finding URL
20:07:23 <stickster> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/desktop/2010-July/006399.html
20:07:24 <ke4qqq> wow - stickster way ahead of the game
20:07:33 <rrix> :)
20:07:48 <stickster> That was all I wanted to add, rrix
20:07:58 <rrix> stickster: You rock, dear sir :)
20:07:59 <stickster> #action stickster to re-ping desktop list about this
20:08:07 * stickster just a squirrel tryin' to get a nut
20:08:17 * rrix gives stickster a big acorn
20:08:22 <wonderer> hy, sorry I'm late...
20:08:31 <rrix> hai wonderer :)
20:08:47 <rrix> so, gnome 3 axed, possible talking points in gnome 2.32?
20:08:54 <stickster> rrix: Correct
20:09:22 <rrix> Great!
20:09:24 <wonderer> what new apps do we have in F14? Taht maybe interressting for some talking points.
20:10:19 <stickster> There are a lot of things for programmers and sysadmins in this release
20:10:20 <rrix> Indeed... hopefully that will be in reply to stickster's thread
20:10:24 <wonderer> rrix: thanks for the ping. next time you can call me on the Bananaphone ;-)
20:10:25 <stickster> Not as much in the way of user-visible apps.
20:10:31 <rrix> wonderer: ;-)
20:10:39 <ke4qqq> yep - very light on desktop stuff judging from featurelist
20:10:44 <stickster> modulo whatever Desktop SIG tells us they're adding to the default image
20:10:58 <wonderer> stickster: I'm thinking of the whole CVS -> git thing. But also what Desktop Users have for new apps here...
20:11:03 <ke4qqq> kde, meego, spice are the only feature list things that jump out.
20:11:10 <wonderer> dunno where it could be found actually...
20:11:16 <stickster> ke4qqq: And EC2, I think.
20:11:19 <rrix> and I don't think KDE is one we could talk about when our default offering is GNOME, tbh
20:11:24 <ke4qqq> maybe sugar....
20:11:33 <stickster> ke4qqq: Er, except EC2 isn't an app. Let me be quiet now.
20:11:34 <rrix> yeah, anything new in sugarland?
20:11:54 <ke4qqq> 0.90 in F14
20:12:08 <ke4qqq> maybe
20:12:09 <ke4qqq> :)
20:12:15 <rrix> Worth talking about? Does it ship any awesome new activities? :)
20:12:20 * rrix goes to read the featurepage
20:12:29 <rrix> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Sugar_0.90
20:12:31 * stickster suggests that for now we leave a space in Desktop area until we hear back from the Desktop SIG
20:12:49 <ke4qqq> yeah - I am not at all comfortable with such a lightweight desktop section
20:12:50 <wonderer> I think more of questions "what is new in $App and $New_feature thats worse talking about" instead of "only" present them...
20:12:50 <stickster> Spice seems kind of not-so-much-for-normal-users
20:13:11 <ke4qqq> yeah - spice used by end users, but not cared about
20:13:30 <ke4qqq> yet another one of those sysadmin features really
20:13:34 <rrix> stickster: I'm sure we could leave space without even wanting to in its current state :-)
20:14:15 <rrix> wonderer: I pestered Nicu to do that when he voiced his concerns over the feature list, but he didn't seem overtly interested in it... maybe prod him again?
20:14:43 <rrix> We do have a boatload of new Sugar activities though jduging by https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Sugar_Activities
20:14:45 <stickster> wonderer: I think I understand what you're saying, adn I agree
20:14:59 <wonderer> rrix: hmm, maybe wait till we have some TP's out...
20:15:02 <stickster> The important thing is not "FooBlah 1.0 is in Fedora 14" but rather, what does this give people the opportunity to do?
20:15:13 <rrix> +1
20:15:40 <stickster> #info Talking points should not be oriented around version upgrades, but around the substantial changes that make Fedora 14 work better for each group listed in the TP's
20:16:05 <stickster> #info TPs should concentrate on telling people, in plain language, what the changes mean to them
20:16:25 * stickster notes that jsmith may be joining us for the first time in a Talking Points roundup
20:16:31 <wonderer> right, we allready have some REALLY good TP's and we can "sponsor" new ones with those TalkingPoints.
20:16:42 * ke4qqq saw him come in a few moments ago
20:16:53 <wonderer> Oh, maybe we should also do a jsmith "welcomeing" Interview ...
20:16:53 * stickster points to the Talking Points SOP which has background on what TPs are and how we try to pick them: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talking_Points_SOP
20:17:05 <jsmith> wonderer: WORKSFORME
20:17:21 <wonderer> jsmith: ah, here he is ;-) Thanks.
20:17:23 <rrix> Oh, jsmith, you snuck in the back when we weren't paying attention ;P
20:17:37 <jsmith> rrix: I'm sneaky like that
20:17:45 <rrix> Hehe :-)
20:17:50 * jsmith listens more than he speaks
20:18:17 <wonderer> jsmith: I think it would be relativly easy for the RH guys to do such an introduction video. Hope you will have a lot of fun there. But now forward with the TalkingPoints :-)
20:18:28 <rrix> Sooo, I'm tempted to say "Defer Desktop talking points one week for Desktop SIG's response" … thoughts?
20:18:42 <stickster> rrix: +1
20:18:42 * rrix tries to keep things rollin' rollin' rollin'
20:18:48 <ke4qqq> +1 rrix
20:18:52 <rrix> k :)
20:18:53 <jsmith> +1 from me
20:18:55 * stickster notes this just in from FESCo meeting next door:
20:18:56 <wonderer> So, I think we allready have some good starters for each of our sections (Sysadmin, network, Developers, users).
20:18:56 <stickster> <nirik> #info Gnome3 / DebugPythonStacks / Go_Programming / MultipathInstall will be re-targeted at f15.
20:19:08 <rrix> #action Defer Desktop talking points one week for Desktop SIG's response
20:19:11 <rrix> Oh, wonderful
20:19:15 <rrix> there goes half our talking points >.<
20:19:48 <stickster> Not so bad
20:19:55 <stickster> Some of those weren't in our list.
20:19:55 <rrix> Not so great though ;)
20:20:03 <stickster> rrix: Let's move on to the next segment
20:20:13 <rrix> #topic Administrator talking points
20:20:24 <rrix> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ipmiutil
20:20:25 <wonderer> rrix: I think the nicu thing is also a thing for discussion within my idea of the combined MKTG ART FAD...
20:20:38 * stickster doesn't think "Perl 5.12" belongs in this list.
20:20:44 <wonderer> +1
20:20:54 <stickster> It's a version upgrade. There's little to talk about that will be immediately compelling.
20:21:05 <ke4qqq> hasn't ipmiutil been in fedora for some time
20:21:11 <wonderer> also the whole virtualisation stuff...
20:21:27 <rrix> stickster: +
20:21:38 <stickster> ke4qqq: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ipmiutil
20:21:45 <ke4qqq> reading now
20:21:56 <ke4qqq> no it's impitool that I used.
20:22:04 <ke4qqq> feel free to /ignore me
20:22:09 <jsmith> Yay for more IPMI goodness
20:22:40 <stickster> I think the problem we have going on here, rrix, is that someone dumped in features to this list without trying to explain them.
20:22:42 <rrix> hehe
20:22:47 <rrix> stickster: Yup.
20:22:51 <stickster> Which means we have to spend this meeting figuring out what each of these mean.
20:22:57 <rrix> Which isn't "bad" it's just that no one explained them :)
20:23:09 <rrix> er, that's what you said  :)
20:23:17 <stickster> rrix: What's on our agenda today other than TP's?
20:23:32 <ke4qqq> ipmiutil looks impressive - I wonder if it should be a TP though.
20:23:32 <rrix> stickster: nada
20:23:39 <stickster> rrix: Can I make a suggestion then?
20:23:46 <rrix> stickster: I can go look at the ticket report, but this week was gonna be TP stuff
20:23:49 <rrix> stickster: go for it!
20:24:29 <stickster> It might be more productive for us to split this list up amongst each other take a couple TPs each, and spend the rest of our time writing a few sentences for each point saying *why the feature matters* and *what it allows an end-user to do*
20:24:49 <ke4qqq> +1 - /me volunteers for sysadmin side
20:24:52 <rrix> That sounds reasonale
20:24:55 <stickster> Where "end-user" might mean someone who cares about desktop productivity for a desktop-related TP, or a sysadmin for a sysadmin-related TP
20:25:05 <stickster> rrix: Assign us work!
20:25:21 * stickster volunteers for MeeGo and Spice
20:25:24 <rrix> stickster: my pipe and tabacco!
20:25:27 <rrix> ;)
20:25:44 <rrix> #action stickster to document MeeGo and Spice
20:25:53 <rrix> #action ke4qqq to document Sysadmin stuffs
20:26:01 <rrix> #action wonderer and I to document developer stuffs
20:26:01 * stickster suggests that we try and each have ours done by the top of the hour.
20:26:23 <rrix> stickster: agreed, if only because Plasma people are harassing me for GSoC stuff ;)
20:26:31 <stickster> OK
20:26:39 * stickster tackles MeeGo
20:26:52 <rrix> wonderer: care to take the first two, and I will take the last two?
20:26:55 <ke4qqq> rrix: you gonna strip perl and rakudo from my section I assume?
20:27:08 <rrix> ke4qqq: it's your section now ;)
20:27:09 <wonderer> which first two?
20:27:12 <rrix> mangle it as you see fit
20:27:20 <rrix> wonderer: D programming and GNUStep
20:27:29 <ke4qqq> rrix: I'll happily remove them, but didn't want to lose the content if you were going to reuse it
20:27:54 <rrix> ke4qqq: wiki history will reveal them if we need them in the future ;)
20:28:15 <wonderer> puh, I have lots of work these days ... till when must it be finished?
20:28:22 <rrix> Though Rakudo *could* be a developer talking point
20:28:27 <rrix> Perl6 is a big thing I guess
20:28:31 * wonderer dunno nothing about that topics so it will be a challenge.
20:28:55 <rrix> ke4qqq: I'm gonna steal Rakudo and move it to Developers
20:29:04 * ke4qqq remembers hearing about perl 6 a long while back.
20:29:21 <ke4qqq> still not moving as fast as they predicted - though I enjoyed hearing damian conway talk about it
20:29:42 <rrix> Yup
20:30:15 <ke4qqq> stickster: I am going to take spice from you if you have no objection
20:30:23 <stickster> ke4qqq: Oh sure, if you like
20:30:29 <stickster> rrix: +1 on Rakudo
20:30:55 <rrix> ok, done :)
20:30:59 <stickster> wonderer: I think we're trying to finish by :00
20:35:03 * stickster finishes MeeGo draft
20:36:18 * stickster notes from Py2.7 feature page: 'Users should not notice any difference, other than the availability of the 2.7 interpreter'
20:36:30 <stickster> There's a lot of back end work that went into this and some common bugs are fixed
20:36:36 <stickster> But this may not be a great feature for us
20:36:58 <rrix> stickster: judging by the python.org page, it would make a great feature... introduces a lot of python3 features to aid migration
20:37:02 <rrix> it's the last 2.x release
20:37:08 <rrix> http://docs.python.org/dev/whatsnew/2.7.html
20:37:20 <stickster> rrix: OK, I'll give that one a spin
20:37:23 * wonderer copies text into...
20:37:47 <rrix> I mean, code that runs on 2.6 will run just fine in 2.7, but it also looks like there is a lot of other stuff
20:38:45 <jsmith> Most code that runs on 2.6 will run on 2.7 with a minimum of changes...
20:38:58 * jsmith thinks the recent upgrade to 2.7 has shown that there are still some issues in that regard
20:41:36 <rrix> I hope most of those issues were just infra issues though..
20:41:56 <rrix> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_14_Talking_Points#Python_2.7
20:42:35 <rrix> Oh, the memory debugging feature is dmalcom's work
20:42:37 <rrix> nice!
20:44:35 <wonderer> rrix: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_14_Talking_Points#D_Programming
20:45:09 <rrix> wheeee
20:45:19 <wonderer> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_14_Talking_Points#GNUstep but the GNUStep page does not offer so much info ... the guy "Jochen Schmitt" is from germany ;-) maybe I will poke him for more infos ;-)
20:45:53 * wonderer listening to WKNC :-)
20:46:10 * stickster integrated the Py2.7 text together
20:46:51 * stickster think GNUstep needs more explanation
20:47:39 <stickster> #info if you use any jargon in your section, you need to explain it so that a layperson who's not a developer (or someone who doesn't know the term) can get an idea of what you mean, and why it matters
20:48:27 <rrix> stickster: even in the Developer section, for example?
20:48:33 <stickster> To a limited extent
20:48:53 <stickster> For GNUstep, for example: "GNUstep is a reimplementation of the NextStep environment. It's a GUI framework based of the Objective-C programming language which is part of the gcc. It is also available n other Linux distribution like Debian or Gentoo Linux."
20:49:01 <stickster> If I'm a developer, why do I want a NextStep environment?
20:49:31 <wonderer> good question .. I'm no developer and the text itself was clear for me :-)
20:49:32 <stickster> Is that better than using some other toolkit? Is it less or more modern? Who else uses it or where might it be useful?
20:51:45 <rrix> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_14_Talking_Points#Memory_Debugging_Tools
20:52:07 <rrix> I odn't know enough about gnustep myself >.<
20:52:39 <ke4qqq> stickster: would you look at my few sentences on Spice - I referenced RHT therein and would like blessing or correction as necessary.
20:53:54 <wonderer> stickster: for gnustep I can contact the developer as I saw he is also german as I said and ask for more details, because the description itself is a little bit ... little ;-)
20:54:11 <stickster> wonderer: Sure, maybe the website has some information you could pull for now, too.
20:54:21 <stickster> ke4qqq: Sure, just a mo
20:55:23 * stickster upgrades EC2 text
21:00:00 <rrix> How're we doing folks?
21:00:19 <wonderer> rrix: writing mail to Jochen ;-)
21:00:45 <stickster> rrix: Awesome!
21:00:50 <wonderer> because rest seem to be "ready" from my side... but it definitly needs more love.
21:01:00 <rrix> wonderer: sounds good :)
21:01:02 <stickster> We have 9 points described, whereas we had... er, zero? when we started
21:01:12 <rrix> stickster: Progress!
21:01:31 <stickster> Was someone doing the ipmiutil one?
21:01:35 <ke4qqq> I am
21:01:40 <ke4qqq> still hacking onit
21:01:41 <stickster> Ah, good on ya mate
21:01:42 <ke4qqq> it
21:01:59 <stickster> ke4qqq: I may hack on your Spice one
21:02:06 <ke4qqq> cool
21:02:23 <ke4qqq> I take credit for your edits anyway :)
21:02:42 <ke4qqq> makes me look smarter
21:03:12 <rrix> heehe
21:05:14 <stickster> :-)
21:05:18 <stickster> Okeydoke, done
21:05:29 * stickster needs to hang up his hat for Marketing for the day, time to put on two other hats
21:06:01 * rrix imagines stickster wearing four hats at once
21:06:05 * ke4qqq feels like I have done poorly with ipmiutil - rrix mind taking a gander - there's a ton of assumed knowledge there, but I don't know how to impart enough knowledge wihtout it turning into a giant tome
21:06:10 <rrix> ke4qqq: wonderer: still working on yours?
21:06:12 <rrix> oh, ok
21:06:18 <rrix> ke4qqq: lemme look
21:06:37 <rrix> as if I'm any better :P
21:06:56 <ke4qqq> well do you play with IPMI now??? if not, you are ideal
21:07:12 <rrix> what -is- IPMI first of all :)
21:07:28 <ke4qqq> Intelligent Platform Management Interface
21:07:32 <rrix> too many TLAs in the feature page
21:07:40 <ke4qqq> think of it as out of band hardware management
21:07:46 <rrix> ok
21:07:49 <ke4qqq> like LOM or iLO
21:08:17 <rrix> more TLAs ;)
21:08:29 <ke4qqq> LOM == Lights out management
21:08:41 <ke4qqq> iLO is integrated lights out management iirc
21:08:45 <rrix> UPS?
21:08:49 <rrix> brb
21:09:52 <rrix> nuts, package not for me
21:09:59 <ke4qqq> huh?
21:10:35 <rrix> baw, not for me
21:10:37 <rrix> er
21:10:40 <rrix> I already said that
21:10:42 <rrix> :D
21:10:48 <rrix> ke4qqq: UPS showed up at my door
21:10:55 <rrix> with a package not for me
21:11:03 * rrix dives back into acronymland
21:11:33 <rrix> ke4qqq: I don't blame you for being afraid of tome-izing this.. it's crazy >.<
21:12:26 <rrix> hrm
21:13:15 <wonderer> nail is out.
21:13:16 <ke4qqq> ahhhh ok
21:13:21 <wonderer> -n +m
21:13:44 <ke4qqq> yeah - to those who know what IPMI is they'll grok, if you don't....well - lots of reading is required.
21:13:55 <ke4qqq> perhaps I'll /msg the owner of that feature for some help
21:14:02 <wonderer> hmm, sad stickster is away, because I had two questions :-(
21:14:28 <rrix> ke4qqq: yeah, I can't help you, I am lost wrt to this IPMI stuff ;)
21:14:45 <wonderer> rrix: or do you know anything new about our marketing videos we shot at our FAD ?!
21:15:14 <rrix> which ones?
21:15:29 <ke4qqq> jsmith: stickster just volunteered you to take ownership of the ipmiutil TP :)
21:15:37 <wonderer> rrix: the ones the videoteam shoot and wanted to do some great videos ;-)
21:15:40 <jsmith> ke4qqq: He did?
21:15:49 <ke4qqq> in -mktg
21:15:50 <rrix> yeah, we need to follow up on this one :)
21:16:02 * jsmith needs some hardware that supports IPMI to give it a good test
21:16:05 <rrix> hahaha
21:16:24 <ke4qqq> jsmith: don't worry about it if your plate is full, though if you want to, more power to you
21:16:33 <jsmith> ke4qqq: I'll see what I can do
21:16:42 <jsmith> Are we doing this in the wiki, or somewhere else?
21:16:55 * jsmith has been working on paperwork instead of paying attention
21:17:06 <ke4qqq> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_14_Talking_Points#ipmiutil
21:17:34 <wonderer> Hmm, I know that DELL supports us on events pretty well with Hardware ... I was wondering (<--- good one ;-) ) if they would do that also for "testinG" purposes like new Hardware Features...?!
21:18:11 <rrix> moar hardware!! :)
21:19:53 <wonderer> rrix: remember only for testing. I have the idea in mind such as "well, we have that VM thingy ... how about some e.g. 4-6 machines, Cluster them and let e.g. 20 VMs running on them, doung HA work, heavy loading, etc. and then write a feature about that or doing a cool video... but thats only my dreams I think...
21:28:28 <rrix> Do we wanna call the meeting, then?
21:32:08 <rrix> ok :)
21:32:11 <rrix> #endmeeting