18:00:54 <kital> #startmeeting FAmSCo Meeting 2010-08-09
18:00:54 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Aug  9 18:00:54 2010 UTC.  The chair is kital. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:54 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:01:04 <kital> #topic RollCall
18:01:29 <kital> Joerg Simon
18:01:36 <spevack> Max Spevack
18:01:38 <kital> #chair spevack
18:01:38 <zodbot> Current chairs: kital spevack
18:01:40 <susmit> Susmit Shannigrahi
18:01:46 <spevack> (just finishing up his previous meeting, still AFK for a few mins)
18:02:23 <tatica> Maria Leandro
18:02:30 * kital calls ke4qqq for Roll Call
18:03:30 <kital> #topic Current action items
18:03:55 <kital> someone wants to add to this topic?
18:04:27 <kital> not? ok ;)
18:04:40 <tatica> nop
18:05:05 <spevack> I think that's our roll call :)
18:05:13 <kital> i shortened the answers from the mentors survey and will include them into the July Report under Mentoring
18:05:16 <ke4qqq> sorry I am late
18:05:22 <kital> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Mentors_Survey_Summary
18:05:38 <kital> hi ke4qqq - not so late
18:06:17 <kital> i also will point out which quick wins fama will include or has already included to the process
18:06:50 <kital> ok - next topic
18:07:24 * spevack is almost done with his CommArch team meeting
18:07:27 <spevack> but lurkin ghere
18:07:46 <kital> spevack: so i will wait with the budget topic ;)
18:08:05 <kital> #topic Ambassador Conduct needs some love
18:08:21 <kital> this is a ongoing topic without an owner right ?
18:08:40 <ke4qqq> is there no owner??? I can take it if need be
18:09:06 <susmit> there is no owner
18:09:12 <kital> ke4qqq: no not from FAmSCo - and this is definitely a important FAmSCo Document
18:10:09 <kital> ke4qqq: we would be so happy if someone can take care for it
18:10:16 <tatica> I think I can add some things for next week
18:10:20 <ke4qqq> yeah - feel free to task me
18:10:28 <tatica> excelente
18:10:42 <tatica> then I will take care of add some thing and we can check the web again next week
18:10:57 <kital> #action ke4qqq takes ownership to own and develop the Ambassador Conduct
18:11:50 <kital> #action tatica is supporting ke4qqq with the Ambassador Conduct
18:12:20 <kital> any questions or suggestions to this topic?
18:12:54 <susmit> no
18:12:56 <tatica> nop
18:13:01 <kital> #topic FAmSCo Report for July
18:13:29 <kital> i saw that tatica and spevack already have worked on the Report
18:13:42 <kital> i will finish my part till tomorrow evening
18:13:50 <spevack> my part is done -- the first section, and the budget section
18:13:53 * ke4qqq is fail and has not - but will do so tonight.
18:13:59 <kital> sorry i missed it because of so many other construction-sites ;)
18:14:30 <kital> spevack: yes you were "first" ;)
18:14:34 * tatica is done for july, and august already has things to report
18:14:35 <tatica> :D
18:15:21 <kital> so do you all think we can make 2010-08-11 12:00 UTC as the deadline for release?
18:16:04 <ke4qqq> worksforme
18:16:22 <kital> susmit?
18:17:06 <kital> #agreed to make 2010-08-11 12:00 UTC as the deadline for the July Report
18:17:13 <susmit> I have updated my part..I shall try to find if there is anything else to update
18:17:30 <kital> susmit: ok!
18:17:46 <kital> spevack: ready for a short budget topic?
18:18:30 <kital> ok till then
18:18:38 <kital> #topic Mentors mentoring - China, LATAM
18:18:59 * spevack is done with his other meeting
18:19:07 <spevack> I'm all yours now, whenever you want me :)
18:19:16 <kital> spevack: ;) okidoki
18:19:32 <kital> i assume you all read the last meeting log
18:19:43 <kital> and that we need to improve the mentoring in China
18:19:45 <spevack> i have.  i know tha tyou talked a lot with mchua about china stuff
18:20:22 <kital> because the people over there consider the need of a catalyst as a mentor i might be the best start with
18:20:35 <kital> mchua as a mentor because she know the mentality
18:20:48 <kital> and is able to find the right mentors on the spot
18:21:07 <kital> therefore she want to work with ke4qqq
18:21:19 <kital> ke4qqq: do you started working with mchua
18:21:21 <kital> ?
18:21:30 <spevack> from my point of view, I'm looking for mchua and harish pillay to do whatever they can not only to help grow and identify some folks who can continue to help make Fedora shine in China/APAC, but also to support those folks however they can.
18:21:31 <kital> mchua: feel free to jump in ;)
18:21:33 <mchua> I got the email ke4qqq sends his new recruits, I have yet to work through it.
18:21:57 <ke4qqq> kital: we've had some conversations - but largely it follows the same conversation that we had at last weeks meeting time
18:22:21 <mchua> I'll be requesting mentor status at next week's FAmSCo meeting, I think... I want to be able to blog this first, write it to list, explain what's going on to people
18:22:25 <ke4qqq> I think using Ambassadors as a starting point is fail - on ramps are hard to engotiate.
18:22:36 <mchua> so we don't get the "but wait it's unfair magic" effect
18:22:41 <mchua> ke4qqq: +1 to that.
18:22:53 <kital> so what we want/need to know when we are ready to assign mchua as a China Mentor - or mchua we need to trust your judgement who also is able to help out over there
18:23:27 <tatica> also, new ambassadors must try to be at least examples for the community
18:23:30 <kital> 20:22 < mchua> I'll be requesting mentor status at next week's FAmSCo meeting
18:23:33 <kital> ah saw that
18:23:38 <kital> thanks ;)
18:23:41 <mchua> kital: I have a few folks in mind who I think would make great mentors after (1) ramp-up in other Fedora teams and (2) ramp-up as Ambassadors themselves
18:23:47 <mchua> will try to get this in place over the F14 release cycle
18:23:47 <tatica> like you told last meeting, they are more closed that other people :S
18:24:02 <tatica> mchua, that's great
18:24:09 <ke4qqq> I implicitly trust mchua - but I wonder what her continuing involvement is going to be in China
18:24:25 * ke4qqq apologizes for talking about her in the third person
18:24:27 <mchua> ke4qqq: Honestly, not much unless it already ties into one of the things I'm working on already (marketing in my free time, education for my $dayjob)
18:24:32 <mchua> ke4qqq: heh, no worries, I do that too :)
18:24:45 * mchua wonders what mchua's involvement in China will be as well
18:24:52 <tatica> lol
18:25:10 <mchua> one of the reasons I want to do the mentorship is that I'm trying to build capacity so i don't have to spend a lot of my cycles in China
18:25:14 <mchua> because I don't have much to spend
18:25:49 <ke4qqq> so rather than spending cycles mentoring yourself, why not push those people you see as future catalysts off to people who have time to spend mentoring???
18:26:16 <mchua> Trying to do that, yep.
18:26:30 <mchua> ...oh, you're saying I shouldn't need to be a mentor *at all*
18:26:42 <mchua> ...yes, actually, you're right
18:26:44 * ke4qqq knows how busy mchua is - and worries about lack of capacity deleteriously affecting our response and thus the appearance that we care
18:27:10 <kital> who else could be the mentor for future mentors in that region?
18:27:26 <mchua> ke4qqq: Well, so here's the thing; Chinese culture is, uh... there's a lot of need for "official" blessing
18:27:28 <ke4qqq> the advantage you have is that you have personal relationships in .cn
18:27:37 <spevack> I think mchua's role is to convert some of the personal connections that's she's made into people who feel like they can get things done -- give folks a +1 and a "we authorize you to do $FOO"
18:27:44 <tatica> mchua, you can take that and use it
18:27:45 <mchua> ke4qqq: the advantage I have, honestly, is that I'm seen as "having the official blessing of Fedora"
18:27:53 <spevack> but also make it clear that mchua won't personally have much time to do stuff.  "I can say yes to you, but I can't do it for you."
18:27:57 <tatica> they also have a lot of respect
18:28:03 <ke4qqq> mchua: ahhh - you showed the wand huh?
18:28:05 <spevack> sounds like the story of my life :)
18:28:32 <kital> ok i would say give us one more week on this ?
18:28:37 <mchua> ke4qqq: bear with me here... it's sort of like "we are in China, we aren't *really* part of the main Fedora community, nobody has 'blessed' us to be that yet"
18:28:54 <mchua> "but you, o person from NA with a RHT title and Fedora history, you BELONG"
18:29:13 <mchua> "and and and we can't do *real* things because lo, we are from THE OUTSIDE and need THY BLESSING to be REAL"
18:29:24 <tatica> mchua, so, technicaly you have to tell them "you are fedora?"
18:29:33 <ke4qqq> mchua: I'll be happy to sponsor a request to famsco for you to be a mentor - I'd like to see you team with others so it's not just you building relationships there.
18:29:35 <mchua> so I kinda need to seed a bit so that it's clear that other people "have blessing" and that "blessing" is, seriously, NOT HARD TO GET
18:29:42 <mchua> ke4qqq: oh yes please, absolutely.
18:29:51 <mchua> tatica: ...yeeeeeeah, basically.
18:29:57 <tatica> oh god...
18:30:18 <ke4qqq> mchua: do hyou want this to wait a week - of is faster better?
18:30:34 <ke4qqq> bah - I can not type
18:30:40 <tatica> lol
18:30:44 <mchua> ke4qqq: but if we say, too soon, "well you guys can do stuff on your own!" it's almost like saying (to them) "keep playing in your little corner, you are still outsiders" - I know we mean for it to be empowering, but I think it comes off as a little alienating instead
18:30:48 <mchua> ke4qqq: er, I think slower is better here, almost
18:31:01 <mchua> ke4qqq: but yeah, let's wait a week, I'll take an action item to blog this stuff up and we can go from there?
18:31:10 <mchua> (it'll get translated into Chinese, kaio has been great about that)
18:31:10 <tatica> what about a "code of honor" ?
18:31:11 <spevack> The fundamental question for all of us:
18:31:13 <ke4qqq> mchua: ok - lets exchange emails too.
18:31:16 <mchua> ke4qqq: can do
18:31:27 <tatica> make teams that can work together untill they (you) see natural leaders?
18:31:39 <kital> mchua: i think we have to see it from the practical few - where should new China Ambassadors hit - who else than you?
18:31:42 <spevack> How can we empower Fedora contributors (Ambassadors or other contributors) in China to do good work, to share their work, etc. without requiring anything more than a trivial amount of mchua's time?
18:31:47 <spevack> or of ANY ONE PERSON'S TIME
18:32:05 <kital> s/few/view
18:32:46 <ke4qqq> spevack: I fear that it will require some time up front - getting over than 'I can do stuff' hump is difficult IMO.
18:33:04 <mchua> kital: gbraad, and there's a new fellow (xennik) who I think would make an excellent Ambassador hub once he gets up to speed a bit, to answer your direct question
18:33:08 <mchua> ke4qqq: +1
18:33:18 <mchua> spevack: the question is, I think, who has time to spend getting them over the initial hump.
18:33:31 <ke4qqq> esp. in a culture that places so much emphasis on 'blessing'
18:33:41 <mchua> right now I'm (alas) the best-positioned person to do it, gbraad doesn't have the time (if he did, he'd be even better)
18:34:43 <kital> other way around - should a new Ambassador candidate from china contact you and find you as a mentor per default or another person?
18:35:16 <kital> if yes i think it would make sense to vote on that soon
18:35:19 <mchua> or a few members of jlaska's QA team in Beijing - they have excellent ideas, a lot of energy, a deeper understanding of the language & culture than gbraad or I do, and they understand the open source way... but again, they don't have enough time to dedicate for that
18:35:43 <kital> tadslfjsaöl
18:35:53 <mchua> kital: hrm, I think it should be "they should contact whoever is responsible for China presence for the F14 cycle" which... it's unclear whether that's me or someone else
18:36:10 <kital> right now it is only yuan - right?
18:36:21 <susmit> yeah
18:36:54 * ke4qqq thinks there is nothing to decide here this week.
18:37:02 <kital> ok
18:37:08 <kital> lets give us another week
18:37:17 <kital> ok for all?
18:37:28 <kital> spevack mchua tatica susmit ?
18:37:34 <tatica> yup
18:37:36 <susmit> yes
18:38:00 <spevack> +1
18:38:25 <kital> #topic FAmSCo Budget
18:38:28 <spevack> mchua and I just make a plan to discuss this more over lunch on Wednesday, and we will share our action items and thoughts/decisions with the list
18:38:55 <ke4qqq> +1 would love to see this on the list - and perhaps get some more people involved
18:39:29 * mchua nods
18:39:40 <kital> budget related there are some things who need our attention
18:39:41 * mchua needs to clean her apartment, is headed off to KMart :)
18:39:45 <mchua> thanks folks!
18:40:09 <kital> thanks mchua ;)
18:40:16 <kital> first most important
18:40:18 <kital> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/65
18:40:59 <kital> this ticket is regarding the release event in hanoi
18:41:00 * spevack opens
18:41:22 <kital> 2,830,000 VND are waiting to get reembursed
18:41:46 * spevack checks his pile of printed out receipts in his bag
18:42:07 * spevack opens up paypal
18:42:27 <kital> ;)
18:43:14 <spevack> http://www.google.com/search?q=2%2C830%2C000%20VND%20in%20USD
18:44:04 * spevack sends $150 USD
18:44:11 <spevack> DONE :)
18:44:21 <kital> great!
18:44:51 <susmit> spevack, thanks and sorry for nagging you...
18:45:01 <spevack> it should have been done a long time ago
18:45:02 <kital> the other thing is - i was ask if the Fudcon shirts i made are from famsco budget payed through Alessandra
18:45:04 <spevack> but it is now
18:45:16 <spevack> kital: They will be, and I'll ask Alessandra to make sure a PO gets opened
18:45:22 <spevack> if it hasn't already been opened
18:45:28 <kital> so it is not from fudcon budget?
18:45:51 <kital> because they need to know if it should listed as a fudcon payment or not
18:46:05 <kital> they=fudcon organizers
18:46:06 <spevack> Yes, it is definitely part of the FUDCon budget.  They are FUDCon tshirts.  :)
18:46:13 <kital> ok ;)
18:46:24 * spevack actually smiles
18:46:39 <kital> only two from my side left ;)
18:46:47 <ke4qqq> lol
18:47:41 <kital> one i promised Robert Scheck to get reembursed for fudcon travel and accomodation - because he is bringing all the stuff - standup-roller, table-cloth, boster, emea event box, fudcon shirts
18:47:45 <kital> with his car
18:48:21 <spevack> sure
18:48:45 <spevack> that makes perfect sense.  thanks for doing that.
18:49:13 <kital> i would like to see that Robert can request reembursement through famsco and has not to go the long way through the fudcon reembursment page
18:49:16 <kital> !
18:49:38 <spevack> sure
18:49:41 <ke4qqq> isn't it the same process - just a different trac instance?
18:50:11 <kital> no he has to do that through the accomodation page and there is it not assured for everyone
18:50:30 <ke4qqq> ahhh ok
18:51:01 <spevack> robert has PayPal.  We can just send him what he needs
18:51:15 <kital> ke4qqq: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon:Zurich_2010_Pre-registration
18:51:56 <kital> spevack: good he will go through the famsco trac for this and i will - stalk at you ;)
18:52:40 <kital> thanks Max! - the last thing
18:52:59 <kital> Release Event Prize! The  Dinner reembursements
18:53:27 <kital> i saw the first request from Neville today and wanted to make sure that the people we award with this dinner get reembursed fast
18:54:00 <kital> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/79
18:54:06 <spevack> The very sad truth about Fedora and reimbursements is this: PayPal == fast, no PayPal == slow
18:55:03 <kital> spevack: yes i know i just want to make sure that we can keep our promises
18:55:33 <kital> spevack: i will request paypal from neville
18:55:36 <kital> ok?
18:55:44 <spevack> Neville doesn't have paypal.
18:55:49 <kital> sh...
18:55:53 <spevack> That's part of the problem, from his point of view, I believe.
18:56:05 * ke4qqq thought we had sent money to him via paypal previously
18:56:36 <spevack> I'm going to have to take a day soon, and spend it all at the bank doing wire transfers.  It's just frustrating, since they charge $40 USD to do a wire transfer, and sometimes we're only transferring something like $100 or $200 USD.
18:56:43 <tatica> spevack, and any from Neville's team has paypal?
18:56:43 <spevack> ke4qqq: not to neville.  To some other LATAM folks, though.
18:56:57 <kital> spevack: i will figure a way with neville and come back to you
18:57:07 <kital> ok?
18:57:14 <spevack> ok!  I have one more budget topic too :)
18:57:15 <spevack> when you are done
18:57:21 <kital> i am done ;)
18:57:30 <kital> thanks for the fast resolution!
18:57:32 <spevack> tatica: whatever you guys need for peru, the answer is yes :)
18:57:41 <tatica> spevack, O_O ok
18:57:50 <spevack> tatica: what else can i tell you? :)
18:58:04 <tatica> I just finish a quick talk with them and ask the at least the specific prices of everything
18:58:23 <tatica> they want to make 2 people travel, but I think that if we help them with some marketing stuff will be great
18:58:43 <tatica> they are teaching fedora at some local schools, so t-shirts and stickers will improove their presence
18:58:47 <tatica> presentation... that
18:58:55 <tatica> and Argentina (quick quick)
18:59:09 <kital> #topic Fedora LATAM
18:59:12 <tatica> they only have one ambassador at Buenos Aires, but 6 arround the country
18:59:16 <tatica> kital, :D
18:59:25 <kital> ;) go ahead
18:59:44 <tatica> even If I see that Rodrigo add them as a probably location for FUDcon they know that they don't have enough people at their "main city"
18:59:59 <tatica> capital
19:00:12 <tatica> so, that's why I propose to them do first a fad and then take the next step
19:00:19 <tatica> all info is linked at the agenda
19:00:37 <tatica> and fudcon latam... you already see that
19:00:45 <tatica> I will go quick with the rest of the stuff
19:00:47 <kital> i think to make a outstanding bid process and be visible is the way to place a fudcon location
19:01:00 <tatica> yup
19:01:07 <tatica> I fail at that step the first time
19:01:15 <tatica> but I'm trying to help Panamá right now
19:01:30 <tatica> next topic (I will jump one)
19:01:32 <kital> fail is good as long as we learn from it ;)
19:01:38 <tatica> :)
19:01:45 <tatica> In LATAM we have a problem with people that ask budget for events, which is: "or contributors don't ask anything, or some ask too much/many_times"
19:01:55 <tatica> I will like to ask for a little advice here since we as community (I mean latam) need to have better resources to make everyone able to get sponsorship.
19:02:03 <tatica> My question is about: "can I set up a group of basic rules to ask for sponsorship" and/or "a time where is a bid open to ask help, just like is done with fudcon organization"?
19:02:17 <tatica> maybe that will show "literaly" to all that they can participate on this
19:02:20 <tatica> eof from me!
19:03:09 <ke4qqq> well I think to some degree events themselves control budget and rules (by events I mean the people who run thme)
19:03:21 <kital> tatica: other basic rules than http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Sponsoring_event_attendees ?
19:03:45 <tatica> ke4qqq, we have some problems with that
19:04:01 <ke4qqq> what are those problems???
19:04:23 <tatica> sometimes communication isn't clear enough
19:04:37 <tatica> and most of the people that ask founds does this without say anything to anyone
19:05:10 <tatica> and after a founding request is placed, the mesage received is "I don't care if you want to go or not, I want to period"
19:05:22 <ke4qqq> thats a transparency problem - is that something that famsco can change
19:05:35 <tatica> I will like to set by example that sometimes we need to make new talents attend and participate
19:06:07 <tatica> but sometimes that example is not "clear enough" and I will like to take an action that doesn't be too dramatic
19:06:20 <tatica> just to organice it and make it more transparent
19:06:59 <kital> tatica: so i think we have to differ between the several budgets? decission making is different by famsco, by commarch, by fudcon-commitees/organizers -
19:07:11 <tatica> even so, the people that organice the event will have the choice
19:07:30 <tatica> but in the latam particular topic, I will like that this process will be more clear
19:08:08 <tatica> btw spevack , travel for all argentina ambassadors to buenos aires by bus is unter 350us$
19:08:08 <kital> tatica: we almost to pre-registering pages and the commitees make the decission to spread the budget accross all the people listed
19:08:39 <kital> or if a key person - like Robert as example who made all the logistics get a bit more if all are ok with it
19:08:50 <kital> s/to/do
19:09:24 <tatica> probably the best choice will be had a bid process for people too
19:10:01 <tatica> where all people involved in the event organization can take a choice
19:10:41 <tatica> btw... you can close the meeting now, I think this is more informal question :)
19:10:58 <kital> tatica: can I set up a group of basic rules to ask for sponsorship <- make a short draft to make it more clear
19:11:10 <tatica> kital, excelente
19:11:10 <susmit> I am listening :)
19:11:31 <susmit> just in case you assume I am sleeping
19:11:35 <susmit> ;)
19:11:38 <kital> susmit:  ;)
19:11:41 <tatica> I'm just a bit worried that people here seems to doesn't care about their teams
19:11:46 <kital> timezone will change soon ;)
19:11:59 <tatica> jajaja
19:12:06 <tatica> I can do a list for next meeting
19:12:14 <kital> tatica: super
19:12:20 <kital> lets make it so
19:12:22 <tatica> thank you :$
19:12:52 <kital> #action tatica improve basic rules to ask for sponsorship with a simple short draft till next meeting
19:13:05 <susmit> kital, yes
19:13:05 <tatica> :D
19:13:22 <kital> ok we are done - right?
19:13:23 <susmit> and I am request a changed timing if required
19:13:32 <susmit> s/am/may
19:13:57 <tatica> yup
19:14:12 <kital> spevack ke4qqq tatica susmit are we done? or anything to add
19:14:13 <kital> ?
19:14:18 <susmit> none
19:14:34 <tatica> noup
19:14:44 <ke4qqq> nothingfromme
19:14:50 <tatica> lol
19:14:57 <tatica> ke4qqq, you need a new keyboard
19:14:59 <kital> ok thanks all ;) was a cool meeting
19:15:05 <kital> #endmeeting