18:05:25 <sochotni> #startmeeting
18:05:25 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Sep  7 18:05:25 2010 UTC.  The chair is sochotni. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:05:25 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:05:37 <sochotni> #topic Decide when/where we'll be meeting
18:06:04 <sochotni> we already discussed with akurtakov that perhaps Tuesdays 17-18:00 UTC would work
18:06:19 <akurtakov> every second week
18:06:29 <sochotni> oh, yes...almost forgot. Every second week
18:06:41 <orionp> good for me
18:06:57 <sochotni> bozhidar: how about you?
18:07:33 <bozhidar> sochotni: it should be fine for me
18:07:46 <sochotni> ok, we can move it later if need be..
18:08:06 <sochotni> #agreed Meetings will be held on Tuesdays, every other week at 17:00 UTC
18:08:54 <sochotni> now let's move to tasks (see https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Java#Tasks )
18:09:18 <sochotni> #topic Tasks for starting java-sig properly
18:09:50 <akurtakov> I don't think we can monitor all java packages
18:10:25 <akurtakov> maybe some kind of java-buildsys kind of group monitoring ant, maven, plexus, apache-commons
18:10:52 <sochotni> akurtakov: I would like to pull in all core java packages
18:11:02 <sochotni> so also junit, velocity etc
18:11:15 <akurtakov> yeah, that's what I was thinking of
18:12:14 <akurtakov> someone interested to join such group?
18:12:28 <sochotni> akurtakov: how about two of use create this list so that we can then ask for for batch watch-commits in rel-eng ticket?
18:12:34 <sochotni> *two of us
18:12:47 <akurtakov> sounds good
18:12:51 <sochotni> I'll prepare the base list
18:13:01 <sochotni> you can verify if nothing important is missing
18:13:07 <akurtakov> ok
18:13:22 <sochotni> #agreed sochotni and akurtakov prepare list of java packages that will be monitored for commits
18:13:45 <sochotni> #action sochotni and akurtakov prepare list of java packages that will be monitored for commits
18:14:12 <sochotni> we can skip maven3 update
18:14:24 <akurtakov> well, I prepare to not skip maven entirely
18:14:39 <akurtakov> maven is a big issue for us so we have at least 3 parts
18:15:00 <sochotni> ok, so this is current status: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MavenUpdate#Maven_3
18:15:07 <akurtakov> 1. fix all recent FTBFS which include migrating a number of packages to use newer libs
18:15:18 <sochotni> I am packaging mojo-parent (dependency of animal-sniffer)
18:15:36 <akurtakov> 2. consolidate dependencies plexus and etc.
18:15:55 <akurtakov> a lot of them has been moved around and are almost duplicated in different packages
18:16:03 <akurtakov> 3. get maven3 and deps installed
18:16:25 <akurtakov> any help with these tasks is more than welcome
18:16:30 <sochotni> yes, the whole plexus stack needs review
18:16:53 <sochotni> for example some packages have dependency on plexus-javadoc in pom.xml, but currently that is replaced by plexus-component-javadoc
18:17:43 <sochotni> I own most of plexus packages, so I guess noone else would know where to start with this (plus I did some recent work on lot of them)
18:18:43 <sochotni> I'll give myself a task for this, but this is gonna take some time
18:19:17 <akurtakov> you can try opening bug reports against so others can join
18:19:44 <akurtakov> it may be a bit of nonsense if noone helps but we can hope
18:19:53 <sochotni> #action sochotni will review plexus packages, which ones were replaced by which ones. Creating tracking bug for this (announced later)
18:20:33 <sochotni> FTBFS bugs are a priority right now, because otherwise we have non-working stack
18:20:57 <akurtakov> absolutely
18:21:27 <bozhidar> sochotni: excuse my ignorance, but what is FTBFS?
18:21:39 <akurtakov> bozhidar: failed to build from source
18:21:45 <sochotni> bozhidar: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FTBFS
18:22:07 <bozhidar> 10x, got it
18:23:03 <akurtakov> ok, next one is packaging guidelines
18:23:28 <akurtakov> this is smth sochotni, orionp and me should do
18:23:44 <sochotni> yes, I believe so
18:23:51 <sochotni> orionp: would you mind helping out here?
18:24:02 <orionp> Sure.   What is needed?
18:24:26 <sochotni> orionp: current practice is a bit different from official packaging guidelines for java
18:24:37 <sochotni> I know there were some drafts for new guidelines
18:24:50 <akurtakov> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Java
18:24:52 <sochotni> also jar_repack magic should be mentioned somewhere
18:25:03 <sochotni> and a lot of other things
18:25:13 <sochotni> basically they need review
18:25:29 <akurtakov> does someone know what is the procedure for getting a draft reviewed
18:25:36 <orionp> Not familiar with jar_repack magic, maybe others.
18:25:53 <orionp> File a ticket with the packaging comittee
18:26:00 <sochotni> orionp: that's why there would be more of us doing the review
18:26:23 <orionp> Is there a new packaging draft page yet?
18:26:25 <akurtakov> I can try putting new draft
18:26:34 <akurtakov> and ask you to review it
18:26:47 <sochotni> akurtakov: ok, you start and me and orion will review the draft and spice it up
18:27:08 <sochotni> #agreed akurtakov will prepare new packaging guidelines draft for java. orionp and sochotni will review
18:27:21 <sochotni> #action akurtakov will prepare new packaging guidelines draft for java. orionp and sochotni will review
18:27:33 <akurtakov> ok, we can get it reviewed in 2 weeks on the next meeting and open a ticket for updating it officially after that
18:28:10 <sochotni> if you can make it until next meeting, I guess so
18:28:16 <sochotni> moving on?
18:28:30 <akurtakov> yes
18:28:53 <sochotni> we can revert positions
18:29:07 <sochotni> I can prepare specialized java review template
18:29:23 <sochotni> akurtakov and orionp can review it?
18:30:01 <sochotni> anyone can pitch in of course
18:30:06 <akurtakov> maybe bozhidar will be a nice beta tester if he reviews his own package using your template and we find a problem after that smth is broken with the template
18:30:12 <akurtakov> or anyone else
18:30:18 <sochotni> akurtakov: good idea
18:30:23 <bozhidar> yep
18:30:43 <bozhidar> I was planning to beta test the new packaging guidelines as well
18:30:59 <sochotni> #action sochotni will prepare new java review template and will test it with bozhidar
18:31:15 <akurtakov> cool
18:31:20 <sochotni> tips & tricks for packaging java...
18:31:35 <sochotni> basically list of common problems and how to fix them
18:31:53 <sochotni> I already started something so I'll just move it to SIG common space and maintain it there
18:32:18 <sochotni> anyone who comes across some fix that could be generalized is welcome to improve it
18:32:25 <akurtakov> basically maven and eclipse problems/fixes because we don't have enough similarity in the rest of the stack to get something common out of it
18:32:43 <sochotni> yes, true
18:33:06 <orionp> I'll go through some of my recent packages to see what might be helpful
18:33:15 <sochotni> orionp: great
18:33:17 <bmahe> what about ivy  packages?
18:33:40 <akurtakov> well, I'm missing any ivy experience
18:33:48 <sochotni> me too
18:33:53 <akurtakov> do we have packages build with ivy ?
18:34:00 <sochotni> I was going to ask that too
18:34:33 <bozhidar> isn't ivy just an ant extension to manage deps in a fashion similar to maven?
18:34:40 <bmahe> I didn't see anything returns by --whatrequires
18:34:53 <orionp> basically yes
18:34:54 <bmahe> bozhidar, yes
18:34:58 <akurtakov> bmahe: but if you have something to add like ways to tell ivy to not download jars and look for them somewhere it will be wellcome on such page
18:35:12 <orionp> I looked at hadoop at one point that used it....
18:35:32 <sochotni> bmahe: just keep an eye on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Java the link will appear there (probably tomorrow)
18:35:56 <akurtakov> I'm pretty sure that we have smth that uses ivy
18:35:56 <bmahe> akurtakov, I am no ivy expert and was looking at some projects using ivy that would be nice to package. So I am looking into it but was also wondering if we have any policy/experience with ivy
18:35:57 <sochotni> #info sochotni will move his common maven problems to SIG namespace and others will improve it
18:36:30 <akurtakov> bmahe: so we can talk and define some guidelines
18:36:38 <bmahe> akurtakov, yes
18:37:16 <sochotni> bmahe, akurtakov: want that as an official action? Or will you just get in touch unofficially for now?
18:37:37 <bmahe> either way is fine for me
18:37:49 <akurtakov> I believe we will have to document just a few ivy properties so it doesn't fetch jars
18:38:15 <akurtakov> let's not make it official unless we have smth to speak for
18:38:17 <bmahe> probably adding resolvers and stuff like that
18:38:33 <sochotni> ok, let me know when you know what needs to be done
18:39:10 <akurtakov> bmahe: ping me when you have some package so we can get smth out of it
18:39:23 <sochotni> yes, that would be ideal
18:39:38 <bozhidar> guys, I have to leave now, but I'll read the rest of the discussion later. If you've got some tasks that I might be helpful with - don't be afraid to mention me
18:39:48 <akurtakov> bozhidar: sure, thanks
18:39:55 <sochotni> bozhidar: I'll add you to documentation/FAQ update ok?
18:40:00 <sochotni> like we said before
18:40:36 <bmahe> akurtakov, I actually do :)
18:40:45 <akurtakov> bmahe: cool
18:40:58 <akurtakov> bmahe: let's talk about it after the meeting
18:41:02 <bmahe> akurtakov, still working on it, but something we can use to work on.
18:41:04 <bmahe> sure
18:41:30 <sochotni> #info akurtakov and bmahe will be looking into packages using ivy to get ideas for guidelines
18:41:41 <sochotni> "Add ability to query java-only package reviews in BZ"
18:42:30 <sochotni> I guess we could ask for special keyword to add to review if it's java based?
18:42:31 <akurtakov> creating a packages pending review section somewhere in the java sig space
18:42:49 <akurtakov> and expecting people to add their packages there
18:43:14 <sochotni> hmm, that would work too without involving rel-eng, but needs more work day-to-day from reviewers/packagers
18:43:15 <akurtakov> anyway we will require something additional from submitters to do
18:43:27 <sochotni> akurtakov: that's true
18:43:37 <sochotni> ok, incorporate it in guidelines
18:43:43 <akurtakov> ok
18:44:01 <akurtakov> we should count the java provenpackagers/sponsors
18:44:04 <orionp> Seems this is close: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&longdesc=java&component=Package%20Review&longdesc_type=allwordssubstr&product=Fedora&classification=Fedora
18:44:32 <sochotni> #action akurtakov will include need to add java packages for review into special Java SIG namespace
18:45:00 <akurtakov> orionp: this is a nice starting point
18:45:00 <sochotni> damn that reads wrong...well, you'll know what it means :-)
18:45:16 <akurtakov> we shouls definitely put this link on the page
18:45:25 <akurtakov> so who is  a sponsor?
18:45:47 <orionp> After that it would be up to someone to add a keyword or whiteboard entry
18:45:49 <sochotni> #info link for seeing most of java package reviews: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&longdesc=java&component=Package%20Review&longdesc_type=allwordssubstr&product=Fedora&classification=Fedora
18:46:18 <akurtakov> orionp: ?
18:46:27 <akurtakov> aren't you a sponsor?
18:46:44 <orionp> I am a sponsor, yes.
18:47:12 <akurtakov> ok, so it is just orionp and me for new packagers
18:47:38 <sochotni> akurtakov: I can help out by pre-screening
18:47:50 <sochotni> doing unofficial reviews and handing you almost clean packages
18:48:00 <akurtakov> sochotni: thanks
18:48:07 <akurtakov> we definitely need it
18:48:20 <akurtakov> provenpackagers - anyone ?
18:48:51 <sochotni> not yet :-/
18:48:59 <orionp> I am
18:49:02 <akurtakov> I'm asking so we can get an idea for the people able to help in mass fixes
18:49:39 <akurtakov> I know that mbooth and mefoster are provenpackagers too but they are not very active lately
18:49:58 <akurtakov> #info sponsors: orionp and akurtakov
18:50:34 <akurtakov> #info provenpackagers: orionp, akurtakov, mbooth, mefoster
18:50:57 <akurtakov> overholt will definetely join us when he gets back
18:51:33 <sochotni> ok, shall we move on?
18:51:49 <akurtakov> we should add this info to the sig page so people know who to query when there is need for someone with more permissions
18:51:54 <akurtakov> yes, let's move
18:52:16 <sochotni> ok, "Look after Java and Eclipse release notes"
18:52:24 <sochotni> akurtakov: you added that I assume?
18:52:37 <akurtakov> I don't think so
18:53:15 <akurtakov> anyway, for eclipse we have nice New and noteworty pages which are just referenced
18:53:20 <akurtakov> not much more we can do
18:53:38 <akurtakov> and I\m not volunteering to work on smth like that
18:54:20 <akurtakov> next ?
18:54:30 <sochotni> I guess so
18:54:55 <sochotni> Improving Java and Java/FAQ pages
18:55:13 <sochotni> bozhidar agreed to review them for basic problems/misinformations
18:55:33 <sochotni> and update as necessary. I'll be watching changes and review them
18:55:43 <akurtakov> this is a nice task for someone else to join too
18:56:02 <sochotni> cspike: want to pitch in by any chance?
18:56:27 <orionp> I've got to go - anything pressing for me?
18:56:44 <sochotni> not from me
18:56:55 <akurtakov> orionp: thanks for joining
18:57:11 <sochotni> orionp: yeah, thanks. just read the minutes if you have time
18:57:12 <orionp> I'll do what I can.  Busy though :-)
18:57:13 <akurtakov> once we get this started we will make meetings shorter
18:57:24 <orionp> bye
18:57:28 <sochotni> yeah, first meetings are touch
18:57:36 <sochotni> *tough
18:57:58 <akurtakov> so we have open floor now, right?
18:58:05 <sochotni> #action bozhidar will fix up Java and Java/FAQ pages. sochotni will review them
18:58:09 <akurtakov> anyone wanting to ask smth?
18:58:26 <sochotni> akurtakov: there was also autoqa thing
18:58:41 <sochotni> akurtakov: let's postpone it for now
18:58:48 <agajania> I work for a small college.  I would like to maintain a package for BlueJ.
18:59:35 <akurtakov> agajania: submit your package for review and we will start the process
18:59:48 <akurtakov> agajania: or you want us to help you with packaging?
19:00:03 <akurtakov> we can answer questions
19:00:13 <agajania> akurtakov, I have been packaging for a few years but I'm sure that I will need help with the guidelines
19:00:22 <sochotni> agajania: there is almost always someone at #fedora-java willing to help out with packaging
19:01:00 <agajania> sochotni, ok
19:01:14 <sochotni> agajania: best way to learn is to submit package for review and we'll guide you through process
19:01:28 <agajania> I think that there are issues with BlueJ having to do with bundled libraries
19:01:44 <sochotni> agajania: yes that is common problem with java libraries
19:01:49 <agajania> theres something called AppleJavaExtensions.jar
19:02:08 <agajania> ok, I'll submit a package for review
19:02:37 <sochotni> if nothing else, I'll end the meeting
19:02:42 <akurtakov> one more thing
19:03:05 <akurtakov> it would be nice if we can get ant, maven and eclipse spec templates added to rpmdevtools
19:03:21 <akurtakov> this should be an easy task once guidelines are updated
19:03:54 <sochotni> cspike is having dinner now...but I guess we can give him this task ?
19:03:55 <akurtakov> we are looking for someone to join us on this task
19:04:08 <akurtakov> he is not here so let's do it :)
19:04:50 <sochotni> #action after new guidelines are finished create ant, maven and eclipse package templates and include them in rpmdevtools
19:04:55 <sochotni> eh
19:05:19 <akurtakov> that's enough for today :)
19:05:19 <sochotni> #undo
19:05:19 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x12f8bd50>
19:05:29 <sochotni> #action cspike: after new guidelines are finished create ant, maven and eclipse package templates and include them in rpmdevtools
19:05:43 <sochotni> #endmeeting