17:01:25 <jreznik> #startmeeting F18 Beta Go/No-Go meeting
17:01:25 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Nov  1 17:01:25 2012 UTC.  The chair is jreznik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:01:25 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:02:06 <jreznik> #meetingname F18 Beta Go/No-Go meeting
17:02:06 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'f18_beta_go/no-go_meeting'
17:02:18 <jreznik> #topic roll call
17:02:50 * jlk is here
17:03:05 * nirik is here
17:04:21 <jreznik> #chair adamw nirik tflink
17:04:21 <zodbot> Current chairs: adamw jreznik nirik tflink
17:05:37 <jreznik> adamw, tflink: around?
17:05:39 <adamw> me and viking are present from qa, not sure if tflink is embodied
17:05:43 <jreznik> ok
17:06:12 <jreznik> #info jreznik jlk nirik + adamw with Viking-Ice to represent QA
17:06:19 <jreznik> #undo
17:06:19 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x47f2b210>
17:06:30 <jreznik> #info jreznik jlk nirik present + adamw with Viking-Ice to represent QA
17:06:42 <jreznik> ok, let's move on
17:06:44 <pjones> let's.
17:06:52 <jreznik> #topic Purpose of this meeting
17:07:09 <jreznik> #info Purpose of this meeting is to see whether or not F18 Beta is ready for shipment, according to the release criteria.
17:07:17 <jreznik> #info This is determined in a few ways:
17:07:23 <jreznik> #info No remaining blocker bugs
17:07:34 <jreznik> #info Test matrices for Beta are fully completed
17:07:48 <jwb> sorry, i joined late.  are we still holding for SB?
17:07:49 <jreznik> #link http://qa.fedoraproject.org/blockerbugs/milestone/18/beta/buglist
17:07:58 <pjones> jwb: hasn't been discussed yet, but yes.
17:07:58 <jreznik> jwb: Go/No-Go
17:08:15 <jwb> jreznik, right.  i meant are we still holding "Go" for SB :)
17:08:27 <jreznik> jwb: ok :)
17:08:36 <jsmith> ne'
17:08:44 <jreznik> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_18_Alpha_Release_Criteria
17:08:50 <jreznik> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_18_Beta_Release_Criteria
17:09:00 <adamw> jwb: i don't think we're going to need to get that far :)
17:09:28 <jreznik> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_18_Beta_TC6_Base
17:09:46 <jreznik> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Installation_Test
17:09:55 <jreznik> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Desktop_Test
17:10:12 <jreznik> ok, introduction done - it took a while but :)
17:10:49 <jreznik> I think we can do an overview of blocker bugs right now
17:11:24 <jreznik> #topic Blocker Bugs
17:12:04 <jreznik> #info 5 bugs currently accepted as blockers
17:12:33 <jreznik> adamw: do you want to go through as QA or just the info is enough?
17:12:44 <adamw> i don't think it's necessary
17:12:51 <adamw> we have several open blockers which are not addressed in tc6
17:12:59 <adamw> and i don't think we want to downgrade them and ship tc6. so not worth the effort.
17:13:15 <jreznik> ok
17:13:21 <Viking-Ice> that summons that up quite nicely
17:13:24 <adamw> i'm not sure we need to drag this out very far :)
17:14:37 <jreznik> makes sense not to walk around it :)
17:14:40 <jreznik> #topic Go or No Go?
17:15:01 <adamw> on the basis that there are open unaddressed blockers, QA votes no-go as per our policy.
17:15:20 * nirik nods. no go sadly.
17:15:23 <jreznik> #info on the basis that there are open unaddressed blockers, QA votes no-go as per our policy
17:15:47 <pjones> no go.
17:15:50 * jreznik has to admit we are not there yet to release Beta next week
17:16:35 <jreznik> this means https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/960 is in the effect - " if we slip on Thursday, pull 1 week from schedule after beta release but before final freeze"
17:17:16 <jreznik> so Beta release will move, other milestones would stay - it means currect Beta Release day is 2012-11-13
17:17:25 <jreznik> if nobody objects
17:17:47 <nirik> yep.
17:18:14 <adamw> i think fesco is insane on this, but hey.
17:18:18 <jreznik> as we really want to avoid to get close to Chrismas holidays
17:18:25 <adamw> *channels both mitt romney and donald trump*
17:18:27 <jreznik> adamw: if you're not ok with that...
17:18:30 <nirik> adamw: there's a lot of insanity this cycle. ;)
17:18:41 <jreznik> what are our other options?
17:18:42 <adamw> i'll bet $5,010,000 that we do not release before christmas.
17:18:57 <adamw> as someone said in the devel thread, just admit that we're not going to pull this thing out of our ass and start planning something realistic.
17:19:07 <adamw> but i'm not sure that needs to go here.
17:19:14 <nirik> the problem with that is: what is realistic?
17:19:22 <nirik> it's impossible to pin down.
17:19:35 <Viking-Ice> adamw, the real christmas ( as in the pagan one ) or the fake one ( as in god and jesus )
17:19:47 <Viking-Ice> ;)
17:20:00 <Viking-Ice> would be kinda neat releasing on winter solstice
17:20:01 <jwb> adamw, if it makes you feel better, just think of this as doing a rolling release for f18, where we check in every week to see if we're ready for release
17:20:05 <adamw> the real christmas is clearly the christian one. it's got christ right in it. you may be thinking of the winter solstice. =)
17:20:06 <nirik> anyhow, outside the scope here I think.
17:20:09 <adamw> jwb: haha.
17:20:13 <adamw> nirik: agreed
17:20:23 <jreznik> that's really a question what are our expectations and how it would affect F19
17:20:54 <jreznik> nirik: it's out of scope here but still it would be silly to force it against the will of the rest of community
17:20:56 * nirik has a dream that once beta goes out we will not have too much trouble with final, but I know it's a wacky dream
17:21:24 <jreznik> adamw: how much troubles do you expect from Final according to final criteria?
17:21:26 <pjones> nirik: yeah, that's not really a dream about /this/ release.
17:21:41 <nirik> jreznik: well, we elect people to decide these things... :) they did.
17:21:41 <adamw> jreznik: i honestly have barely started looking at them yet.
17:21:46 <jreznik> so the question would be - what can we do to avoid possible issues for beta/final?
17:22:14 <adamw> jreznik: i'm really just going on general grounds here.
17:22:19 <jreznik> but let's finish the Go/No-Go decision formally here, we can use open floor
17:22:23 <adamw> we've had massive trouble getting alpha into shape and massive trouble getting beta into shape.
17:22:28 <Viking-Ice> well I think it's safe to assume Final is OK for anything but the installer ;)
17:22:30 <adamw> the chances we don't have massive trouble getting final into shape seem slim.
17:23:14 <adamw> the final blocker list already looks like http://qa.fedoraproject.org/blockerbugs/milestone/18/final/buglist and we've barely started on it yet.
17:23:37 <jreznik> #agreed to No-Go Fedora 18 Beta, current release date is 2012-11-13, as the FESCo decision #960 is in the effect, no slips for the final
17:24:01 <jreznik> #action jreznik to adjust schedule and announce the result of Go/No-Go meeting
17:24:24 <jreznik> #topic how to avoid slips for upcoming milestones/open floor
17:25:26 <jreznik> #info adamw reports that final blocker does not look good and does not expect easy final release
17:25:43 <jreznik> adamw: it is and it's still more about anaconda...
17:26:12 <adamw> yeah. well, we haven't really tested anything else much yet. but on day-to-day experience i don't see much wrong with the desktops, which are the other area where we bump the final criteria significantly.
17:26:47 <jreznik> adamw: yep, that's the thing - for me F18 just works once you're able to install - that gives some optimism
17:27:42 <Viking-Ice> just ask developers to use this slip time "wisely"  and address their bugs if their components is on the final buglist now and we should be fine for final except for potential installer issues
17:27:58 <adamw> yeah, it's all about the anaconda.
17:28:20 <jreznik> Viking-Ice: well, I can start nagging people on final list, not a bad idea to start asap
17:28:52 <jreznik> it also affects f19 as we're going to hit big troubles too... looking on Anaconda Work List
17:29:00 <adamw> well, most of 'em are proposed blockers not accepted, as we don't have time to deal with anything but beta blockers in blocker meetings. but sure, you could use your judgment to see which will 'clearly' be accepted
17:29:07 <nirik> is there anything we can do to coordinate with anaconda folks better? or bribe them to put in more time on bugfixes over weekends/evenings?
17:29:22 <adamw> i really don't think so. you can only get so much blood out of the stone.
17:29:29 <pjones> nirik: I really don't think there's more time.
17:29:30 <jreznik> adamw: I understand, just ask people to take a look, comment it, etc
17:29:46 <nirik> pjones: yeah, I feared as much, just thought I would ask.
17:29:55 * adamw envisions the entire anaconda team tied to their desks 24x7, with dcantrell wielding a cat-o-nine-tails
17:29:56 <jreznik> nirik: I'd say Anaconda people are already on the edge...
17:30:34 <nirik> we could start a fudcon buy a anaconda developer a drink program. ;)
17:30:50 <jreznik> but I definitely try to coordinate with David, where are the priorities for Final
17:31:25 <jreznik> the Beta is now more blocked on fedup, as we finally have packages, short term for Beta - what has to be done for proper fedup testing?
17:31:44 <adamw> i guess one thing we can do is go straight from beta release to final blocker treadmill
17:31:57 <adamw> keep right on with the blocker review meetings and start cutting TCs early
17:32:07 * nirik nods.
17:32:12 <nirik> I think thats a good idea.
17:32:18 <adamw> tflink wrote up some fedup testing instructions
17:32:19 <Viking-Ice> yup
17:32:25 <adamw> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Fedora_18_Upgrade_Testing
17:32:35 <adamw> i haven't tested them yet =) but there they are
17:32:38 <jreznik> adamw: that's probably the only possibility and I think we would have to invite adamw and other qa folks for a drink at fudcon for that :)
17:33:50 <jreznik> adamw: it could be updated to use the real packages - so we can get karma as soon as possible for fedup and f17
17:34:16 <adamw> sure, we'll try and do that
17:34:17 <Viking-Ice> just start by asking developers to look at final blocker bug list, and see if their components is on that list and address those bugs if they can so they are fixed in time we in QA can just continue straight on to the final list and start working on it
17:34:32 <adamw> yeah, i think we have a plan there
17:34:52 <jreznik> not a plan, crazy adventure :)
17:35:17 <pjones> jreznik: the beta is also effectively blocked on 872272 , I would think, though I filed that recently so it isn't on the list yet.  But it's something that we've known and just weren't tracking formally.
17:36:13 <Viking-Ice> of those proposed final blocker I count 11 that are already on QA
17:36:40 <jreznik> pjones: any eta on this? and backup plan if shim is not signed anytime soon?
17:37:30 <pjones> jreznik: the backup plan is to test without final signatures?  but that really sucks.
17:37:42 <pjones> as for eta... I continue not to work for legal.
17:37:48 <jwb> it does.  i've been testing like that
17:39:12 <jreznik> I think QA would be flexible here as I expect they do not have any criteria for this one :)
17:39:25 <adamw> it would be a conditional violation of 'install must boot on everything'
17:39:39 <adamw> the condition being 'Win8 machines if you don't turn SB off in the BIOS'
17:40:04 <adamw> whether we want to call that a blocker is a classic blocker review meeting chinwag =)
17:40:13 <adamw> we're supposed to be doing one of those in a minute anyway, so...
17:40:55 <jreznik> adamw: ok, let's end here and move to #fedora-qa for blocker bug fun
17:41:01 <jreznik> thanks for coming
17:41:29 <jreznik> just a reminder - Fedora 18 Beta readiness meeting is in 1:29 hours, 19:00 UTC
17:41:50 <adamw> blocker review in #fedora-qa in 5 minutes
17:41:55 <adamw> after i go visit porcelain percy
17:42:03 <jwb> i find myself confused
17:42:03 <jreznik> the same channel
17:42:08 <jreznik> jwb: ?
17:42:15 <jwb> how is the 'beta readiness' meeting not the same thing as go/nogo
17:42:29 <jreznik> jwb: it's broader one
17:42:41 <jreznik> all people from all teams comes to say "we are ready"
17:42:44 <jwb> where we discuss the same things?
17:42:44 <adamw> it's about whether all the teams are ready - documentation, websites, mirroring etc
17:42:51 <jreznik> and it happens only once
17:42:57 <adamw> no, stuff like 'are the release notes done', 'are the mirrors ready'
17:43:10 <jwb> so... shouldn't that come _before_ go/nogo?
17:43:28 <jreznik> jwb: I was told it should be after go/no-go :)
17:43:38 <adamw> jwb: it's not really a sign-off meeting
17:43:45 <jsmith> Typically, there's a go/no-go, and then a readiness meeting
17:43:47 <adamw> it's a co-ordination / does anyone need help with anything kinda meeting
17:43:51 <jwb> if docs wasn't ready, would we change to nogo?
17:43:56 <adamw> it doesn't have the power to revert the Go decision
17:44:03 <adamw> no, we'd try and figure out how to help them get ready.
17:44:08 <jwb> sigh
17:44:24 <jreznik> good to have these insights from vet :)
17:44:56 <jreznik> so in a few minutes in #fedora-qa and later here
17:45:01 <jreznik> thanks
17:45:11 <jreznik> setting fuse...
17:45:41 <jreznik> 3...
17:46:08 <jreznik> 2...
17:46:52 <jreznik> 1...
17:47:09 <jreznik> #endmeeting