18:01:11 <rbergeron> #startmeeting Fedora Board
18:01:11 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Apr 25 18:01:11 2013 UTC.  The chair is rbergeron. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:01:11 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:01:12 <misc> hi o/
18:01:17 <rbergeron> #meetingname Fedora Board
18:01:17 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_board'
18:01:27 <jreznik> hey
18:01:27 * mhayden waves at rbergeron
18:02:24 <rbergeron> #chair misc jreznik mhayden
18:02:24 <zodbot> Current chairs: jreznik mhayden misc rbergeron
18:03:46 * rbergeron looks around for other humans
18:03:48 <rbergeron> hey, a human
18:03:50 <rbergeron> #chair inode0
18:03:50 <zodbot> Current chairs: inode0 jreznik mhayden misc rbergeron
18:04:03 <rbergeron> gholms pinged and said he was unlikely to make it today
18:04:16 <rbergeron> #info gholms sends apologies for his likely absence
18:05:01 * jreznik will probably leave earlier to rest a bit - see fab channel...
18:05:29 <rbergeron> #chair jreznik
18:05:29 <zodbot> Current chairs: inode0 jreznik mhayden misc rbergeron
18:05:34 <rdieter> hola, sorry a bit tardy
18:05:39 <misc> jreznik: so let's start by the topic you wanted to talk about ? ( so you can leave early ) ?
18:05:39 <rbergeron> #chair rdieter
18:05:39 <zodbot> Current chairs: inode0 jreznik mhayden misc rbergeron rdieter
18:05:47 <rbergeron> jreznik: sorry about your headache ... and yes, what misc said
18:06:44 <jreznik> sure
18:07:14 <rbergeron> (assuming it's not a giant rathole :D)
18:07:40 <inode0> the board is capable of making a pinprick a giant rathole :)
18:07:56 <jreznik> we're getting close to elections and name review fun - I'm in touch with ankur and I hope to have some idea about schedules asap, then we will share it with the Board / rbergeron for review
18:08:36 <rbergeron> jreznik: hooray schedules
18:09:22 <rbergeron> is that it? :)
18:09:25 <jreznik> so for now more headsup - but if you have ideas for it, feel free to ping me
18:09:48 <misc> #topic planning
18:10:21 <jreznik> and also quick status - F19 Alpha was released this Tuesday, thanks everyone! Beta change deadline on 14th May, release on 28th
18:10:43 <misc> #info jreznik remind us that we are close to election/name/etc, will send us schedule for review
18:11:27 <rbergeron> misc: thanks
18:11:41 <misc> #info Alpha was released, beta change deadline on 14/05, beta release on 28/05
18:11:55 <rbergeron> #topic Agenda for today
18:12:03 <jreznik> that's all from me
18:12:29 <rbergeron> I sent out 2 things for today.
18:12:43 <rbergeron> (and my internet is suddenly making me type at one mile an hour)
18:13:26 <rbergeron> First was a suggestion/sample set of questions that we might want to apply to scenarios/ideas/etc as we progress.
18:13:58 <rbergeron> Second was (per misc's suggestion) an item from mo's mail to walk through - basically walking through a problem.
18:14:26 <rbergeron> And unless anyone else has a suggestion, that's where we'll go today :)
18:14:34 <rbergeron> (hopefully in reasonable time frame)
18:14:37 <rbergeron> questions, comments?
18:14:44 <inode0> ready to go at #1
18:14:49 <rbergeron> caffeinated? :)
18:15:06 <inode0> braindead from previous 3 hour long meeting
18:15:20 * mhayden looks at his empty energy drink from this morning
18:15:23 <misc> good, so that mean we can focus on simple why :)
18:15:44 <rbergeron> ;)
18:15:51 <rbergeron> okay, i'll dive into the first one
18:16:12 <rbergeron> #topic Strategy Questions
18:16:12 <misc> #info using the 5 why method for brainstorming
18:16:41 <rbergeron> So: (deep breath)
18:17:06 <rbergeron> Folks define strategy in a lot of ways.
18:17:53 <rbergeron> And some tihnk of it as "what is the roadmap to success," "how do we just optimize what we have now," and ... well, seriously, bookstore has like 500 books on the topic.
18:18:16 <rbergeron> It's not really an agreed-upon science and lots of folks think it's just plain luck + intuition.
18:19:26 <rbergeron> But as we think about what we want to do, how we do it, how we define success, I think it's important that we know what we ... are trying to achieve,
18:20:08 <rbergeron> and the steps that lead to that, and know who is affected (since, as we all know, the work doesn't get done unless someone actually wants to do it)
18:20:52 <rbergeron> So as we are coming up with different ideas I think it's good that we have a way to at least compare in a 1:1 fashion different ideas, or at least have an idea of "what we need to see at the end of the day"
18:21:11 <rbergeron> Basically: What does an outcome/plan look like, what needs to be answered.
18:21:43 <rbergeron> So I have a base list (shamelessly taken from one of those 500 books) - wanted to see what folks' thoughts were.
18:21:52 <rbergeron> And I can list it out here.
18:22:10 <rbergeron> If someone at least says someting so i know i'm not lagged to death :)
18:22:22 <inode0> yeah, lets do it
18:22:24 <rbergeron> And folks agree that it seems like a decent idea.
18:22:26 <rbergeron> Okay!
18:22:27 * AnnaE agrees
18:22:43 <rbergeron> (whew, i'm not typing to myself entirely)
18:23:04 <rbergeron> #info 1: What is our larger goal? (Mission statement, vision statement)
18:23:27 <inode0> want thoughts inline?
18:23:35 <rbergeron> I think we all more or less agree that what we have seems reasonable (at this moment)
18:23:52 * inode0 doesn't or doesn't understand
18:23:53 <rbergeron> Sure - can you preface them with the number, so we know what you're referring to
18:24:04 <rbergeron> in case i get to the point where I'm ... moving onwards a bit?
18:24:36 <rbergeron> okay, you don't ... agree mission/vision statement are reasonable at this point?
18:24:51 <rbergeron> is that what you are saying?
18:25:07 <rbergeron> or don't understand the point
18:25:44 <inode0> I don't think what we have is what we want - whether fuzzy statements like those are useful I guess I wasn't thinking about specifically
18:26:20 <inode0> Let me find the actual vision statement before I complain about it though :)
18:26:29 <rbergeron> okay
18:26:49 <rbergeron> i'll move on  in the meantime (it's pretty ... vague and fuzzy feeling and timeless)
18:27:13 <inode0> Do you want to discuss the current vision statement or what our visions actually are for the future?
18:28:15 * Sparks is here
18:28:38 <rbergeron> I just want to discuss the cascading list of choices which lead from "mission/vision" down to "what we're doing" and so forth.
18:28:50 <misc> so 5 why
18:29:54 * inode0 thinks Fedora as a project should consider repositioning itself as a bridge builder to other communities of related interest
18:30:16 <rbergeron> And get agreement on that list - not necessarily agree on what the answers are to that list today.
18:30:41 <inode0> So it would have a core platform product on which those communities build, and non-core but central products that Fedora builds on top of that platform
18:30:45 <rbergeron> Because it's the list of everything we need to know to determine a change.
18:31:14 <mhayden> i think of fedora as a modern but stable platform for additional development
18:31:32 <inode0> I want to think of it that way.
18:31:47 <rbergeron> okay, so it sounds like we may want to revisit #1. But I do'nt want to totally dive into answering each item today - just get agreement on "these are the questions we need to answer as we figure it out"
18:31:56 <jsmith> ?
18:32:00 <rbergeron> you guys can discuss - i'm going to go on with the list
18:32:05 <rbergeron> jsmith: speaketh (as i continue typing)
18:32:26 <jsmith> I'd like to point out that Fedora is more than just the distro -- if anything it's a community first, and a distro as a byproduct of the community
18:32:27 <jsmith> EOF
18:32:31 <rbergeron> #2: Where will we play? (Basically - what is our target audience)
18:33:29 <rbergeron> #3: How do we win - perhaps this could better be stated as "what are we delivering"
18:34:36 <rbergeron> jsmith: yes, and lots of companies that deliver things view themselves in the same way - it's not just about "selling something," it's about the company as a whole, making the world a better place, etc.
18:35:00 <rbergeron> #3 is a bit ... still iffy to me, but I'm thinking on it.
18:36:11 <rbergeron> #4 What capabilities do we need in place? This is - in some places, technical - do we have the tools to build what we deliver, technical capabilities - other bits are things like marketing - how do we reach these people, etc.
18:36:40 <misc> rbergeron: for #3, "how do we define our success" is maybe the less loaded term you are looking for ?
18:38:28 <rbergeron> #5 Management systems needed? This goes towards what we need to do on an ongoing basis to be successful - how do we ensure we can have a steady flow of new contributors, how do we measure success (so we feel successful!), etc.
18:39:16 <rbergeron> Misc: perhaps, though in here somewhere is "what is the deliverable"
18:39:26 <rbergeron> So that's the list i have.
18:39:38 <mhayden> #2) I still feel like we need to define the focus of our outputs/deliverables a bit -- desktop or server (or both equally)?
18:39:48 * rdieter likes that approach, though we may have to admit that we (the board) may have little control over some of these
18:39:50 <rbergeron> I'm not sure that folks are ... even in on the "do we need a list" bandwagon.
18:40:27 <misc> #info rbergeron presented the list of the 5 questions we want to answer to have a better understanding of the issue ( questions on http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2013-April/011968.html )
18:40:35 <rbergeron> rdieter: yes, but at the same time - I think if we're saying "let's do X!" we need a way to measure if that is actually doable by the people doing the work
18:40:37 * rdieter hops on rbergeron's wagon
18:40:40 <inode0> We need a list but I don't want to restrict things by the board necessarily defining the list very precisely
18:40:57 * misc follow rdieter on the wagon
18:41:03 <rbergeron> so it's sort of a way to be able to understand what effects a possible decision might have
18:41:21 <rbergeron> if those effects or needs are not doable, then w eneed to revisit.
18:41:40 * inode0 is happy with this framework for discussion
18:41:45 <rbergeron> unlike a company - where you can either do the work or ... get a new job, we have contributor community, which means we need people on board.
18:42:03 <rbergeron> or able and willing to do the things.
18:42:26 <rbergeron> if that's not there, and it's critical to success, it means that ... well, we probably shouldn't do that thing.
18:42:36 <rbergeron> does that make sense?
18:42:41 <misc> yep
18:42:43 <inode0> or we give them an environment where they just want to do things - it doesn't require a precommitment
18:43:32 <rbergeron> and to mhayden's point: yes, the "outputs/deliverables" thing is sort of the conundrum we have on hand :)
18:44:05 <mhayden> i'm a weirdo since i purely utilize the server deliverable, but that's not to say that the desktop has any less value
18:44:11 <rbergeron> again - I tihnk this is where (unlike at a comany, where you'd just say "HERE IS OUR AUDIENCE" and go make a thing
18:44:17 <rbergeron> )
18:44:36 <mhayden> as with any organization, we're going to have things we excel at and other things we're awful at
18:44:56 <mhayden> and if we try too hard to improve the awful things, we lose traction on the things we do really well
18:44:57 <misc> as long as we do not excel at being awful, that should be good
18:44:57 <rbergeron> we do have to think about what the people here who are doing work right now seem to be interested in - and look at the audience a bit from that perspective
18:45:10 <mhayden> misc: i already do that at $dayjob :P
18:45:42 <rbergeron> becuase right now we have a "defined audience" that I think doesn't match up with what we're actually delivering, because the people who are contributing right now are interested in contributing things that are not necessarily for the audience as its currently defined.
18:46:04 <rbergeron> mhayden: but you have a great face for stickers :)
18:46:13 <mhayden> sigh
18:46:35 <mhayden> #3) i think we define a win not by "market penetration" but by how often fedora deliverables are used to build something great
18:46:54 <mhayden> which could be something as simple as one person's desktop or it could be a small part of some giant product/movement
18:47:20 <mhayden> for example, fedora is the best platform i've found for xen today -- i'd say that's something the community excels at (on a specific deliverable)
18:47:37 * inode0 thinks we still confuse the default desktop audience with the Fedora Project audience
18:47:44 * rbergeron hugs mhayden for the sticker thing
18:47:55 <jsmith> inode0: I agree :-)
18:47:55 <inode0> we don't have any target audience that I am aware of
18:47:58 <mhayden> apparently some of my stickers showed up at other hosting companies... wonderful
18:48:42 <misc> so, basically, we plan to refine the 5 questions in 10 minutes, or do we go 1 by 1 and see if we agree/disagree ?
18:48:50 <misc> and then refine on ml later ?
18:48:52 <rbergeron> inode0: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base
18:49:17 <inode0> that is the audience of the default offering - not of the project
18:49:18 <rbergeron> I think refine on ML - since we're almost out of time and we haven't even touched 5 why's yet
18:49:24 * rdieter thinks we're going to end up with something very generic'ish sounding, but that may be a good thing(tm)
18:49:26 <mhayden> #4) grassroots marketing efforts would certainly help (as i walk the building with my fedora lanyard)
18:50:26 <mhayden> #5) we need to make the fedora community and contributing experience an inviting one, but not without guidelines
18:50:48 <mhayden> i've tried to contribute to another prominent linux distribution but was told i was not tall enough to ride the roller coaster
18:51:11 <mhayden> but the fedora community has been very welcoming, even with my awful packaging talents
18:52:15 <rbergeron> inode0: that's an excellent point
18:52:15 <rbergeron> though it also says "a goal we are instituting for fedora the distribution in the future"
18:52:16 <rbergeron> and "these aspects are applicable to the work of the entire fedor aproject"
18:52:16 <rbergeron> do we want to refine on ML? does that seem like a reasonable thing to do?
18:52:27 <mhayden> perhaps etherpaD?
18:52:57 <misc> I prefer the ml, cause with etherpad, we may lack context
18:53:26 * rbergeron wonders if now that we have node.js if we can have a fedora etherpad, offhand... lol
18:53:29 <mhayden> true - it just sometimes gets difficult to get a good list together on ML's due to the replies :P
18:53:40 <rdieter> my overly generic'ish wish/vision:  #1 : facilitator of great stuff , #2  makers of said great stuff #3 how much great stuff is made? (per mhayden's excellent examples so far), #4 / #5 comes out of details about what contributors are actually doing/making
18:53:40 <mhayden> isn't etherpad python?
18:53:43 <misc> rbergeron: etherpad-lite on openshift, for more cloudz
18:53:51 <misc> mhayden: scala, or nodejs :)
18:54:08 <mhayden> i'd like to see fedora be the cloud platform of choice, honestly (but i am biased) :)
18:54:49 <misc> so everybody is ok on the generic 5 questions, with some refinement, and would everybody agree that we refine them for next week on ml ?
18:54:59 <rbergeron> okay - so I do think that the mailing list will facilitate more discussion
18:55:05 <misc> ( just the question, not the answers, not yet )
18:55:19 <rbergeron> since it pushes into people's inboxes and generates dram^H^H^Hiscussion
18:55:21 * inode0 is eager to get to the meat of it
18:55:38 * mhayden is vegetarian, but he likes inode0's idea anyway
18:55:41 <inode0> I don't really want to discuss these questions for weeks, I'll accept the questions as is.
18:56:00 <misc> inode0: hence the dealine for next week :)
18:56:06 <rbergeron> inode0: as am I, but it seems like it might prevent wandering discussion to at leasta have a list of things to solve :)
18:56:09 <rdieter> inode0: +1
18:56:35 <rbergeron> and know how to tell when we need to move backwards if we're going in the wrong direction.
18:56:49 <mhayden> off topic, sorta: i'd really enjoy having some of these discussions in person if anyone's going to be at the RHT summit
18:57:01 * inode0 will be
18:57:15 * misc will not :(
18:57:28 <mhayden> are we going to have a big cutout cat (like we did with the hot dog) ?
18:57:41 <rbergeron> as will I (and hey, you can put your name on this page: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Red_Hat_Summit_2013 )
18:57:48 <inode0> I wouldn't mind a phone conference to get our focus - yelling is a great facilitator
18:58:07 <rbergeron> I know annae is eager to obtain giant spherical cow balloons and cat-related things :)
18:58:17 <inode0> or more seriously it is just much higher bandwidth
18:58:30 <rbergeron> misc: do you want to take that list and start a new mailing list thread for discussion?
18:59:10 <rbergeron> inode0: indeed - perhaps since we should have this list by next week it would be a reasonable time to do that
18:59:25 <mhayden> rbergeron: added myself, but i've gotta scoot to an interview
18:59:31 * mhayden scoots and waves goodbye
18:59:32 <rbergeron> let's see where things go in the next few days - I think we can flesh out this list fairly quickly
18:59:40 <rbergeron> mhayden: if they don't use fedora, you know the answer :)
19:00:11 <rbergeron> misc: if you can't, I'll do so this afternoon - you just seemed interested in keeping it on ML :)
19:00:35 <misc> rbergeron: i can
19:01:03 <rbergeron> misc: thank you :)
19:01:12 <rbergeron> #action misc to take list and start a new thread
19:01:45 <rbergeron> okay - I totally blew it on the 5 why's and we're at the hour - but it seems like a good place to stop
19:02:08 <rbergeron> and not just because my stomach is screaming for arby's
19:02:27 <rdieter> good mood food
19:02:30 <rbergeron> #topic Other business for today?
19:02:50 <rbergeron> rdieter: totally. even when in not a good mood. :)
19:03:04 * misc is already eating
19:03:08 <rbergeron> :|
19:03:46 <rbergeron> If there's nothing else - I shall close out the meeting momentarily
19:04:11 <rbergeron> and, that's a moment.
19:04:35 <rbergeron> Thanks for coming guys, I think this will help us frame things going forwards and save us from wandering madness :)
19:04:43 <rbergeron> endmeeting
19:04:46 <rbergeron> oh, fail.
19:04:49 <rbergeron> #endmeeting