17:00:29 <samkottler> #startmeeting Cloud WG weekly meeting
17:00:29 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Nov  6 17:00:29 2013 UTC.  The chair is samkottler. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:29 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:41 * rbergeron is here
17:00:59 * frankieonuonga is here
17:01:12 <samkottler> #chairs rbergeron frankieonuonga number80
17:01:18 <samkottler> #chair rbergeron frankieonuonga number80
17:01:18 <zodbot> Current chairs: frankieonuonga number80 rbergeron samkottler
17:01:23 <rbergeron> ooh, a stahnma :)
17:01:28 <stahnma> oh hai
17:01:54 <samkottler> we're missing a bunch of folks, don't even have quorum right now
17:02:08 <frankieonuonga> I think we give them two minutes
17:02:22 <frankieonuonga> just to give them a chance to join
17:02:34 * geppetto is here
17:02:39 <samkottler> #chair geppetto
17:02:39 <zodbot> Current chairs: frankieonuonga geppetto number80 rbergeron samkottler
17:03:02 <stahnma> I'm will to make drastic statements and undercut all thought and protocol.  Does that help?
17:03:04 <stahnma> s/will/willing
17:03:18 <samkottler> stahnma: we'd expect nothing less
17:04:19 <samkottler> #chair mattdm
17:04:19 <zodbot> Current chairs: frankieonuonga geppetto mattdm number80 rbergeron samkottler
17:04:27 <number80> hi
17:04:30 <samkottler> alright let's get started
17:04:35 <samkottler> #topic Roll call
17:04:36 <frankieonuonga> yebo
17:04:44 <frankieonuonga> first thanks for coming in guys
17:04:47 * samkottler is here :)
17:04:48 <frankieonuonga> welcome to this weeks meeting
17:05:00 <mattdm> i'm at lisa at the booth so attention may be split
17:05:49 <samkottler> mattdm: no worries
17:05:53 <samkottler> #topic Announcements
17:06:04 <samkottler> anyone got anything to announce this weke?
17:06:05 <samkottler> week**
17:06:11 <samkottler> how's the PRD creation going?
17:06:40 <frankieonuonga> yeah…i need guys to kindly get back to me on roles in the group . i need to work on that landing page as soon as possible
17:07:15 <samkottler> frankieonuonga: we might not initially have formal roles for everyone - is that blocking the creation of the landing page?
17:07:22 <number80> samkottler: not much
17:07:40 <frankieonuonga> no no
17:07:46 <number80> though nearyd kindly shared with us personas written for openstack
17:07:48 <frankieonuonga> i mean in terms of the group consists of
17:07:50 <frankieonuonga> designers
17:07:54 <frankieonuonga> ambassadors ...e.t.c
17:07:58 <frankieonuonga> not exactly who
17:08:06 <frankieonuonga> but just roles in the group.
17:08:16 <frankieonuonga> it allows people to come in and say i would like to do ambassador
17:08:19 <frankieonuonga> or developer stuff
17:08:41 <mattdm> I'm in favor of having roles and responsiblities but also want to make sure nothing falls on just one person
17:08:43 <samkottler> frankieonuonga: do you want to send out a mail about that to get feedback on what people want to work on vs. the needs of the WG?
17:09:01 <frankieonuonga> i sent an email but guys have not responded
17:09:01 <samkottler> mattdm: +1
17:09:06 <frankieonuonga> but I can send another one
17:09:30 <samkottler> #action frankieonuonga to bump his initial mail about roles + responsibilities
17:09:31 <frankieonuonga> but in terms of what people want to work on that might limit it to officials
17:09:48 <frankieonuonga> but let me see what to do about it
17:09:50 <frankieonuonga> thanks
17:10:20 <number80> +1 for roles
17:10:42 <frankieonuonga> ok cool. I will send it out .
17:10:42 <samkottler> one of the shorter term things we need done (due in 8 days IIRC) is to finish the PRD and send it to FESCo
17:11:01 <frankieonuonga> what is PRD?
17:11:13 <sgallagh> samkottler: No, the PRD is due in January
17:11:22 <sgallagh> eight days from now is the Governance document
17:11:27 <samkottler> sgallagh: ah okay, so we've got more time than I expected
17:11:37 <samkottler> sgallagh: right, thanks
17:11:39 <sgallagh> oh... I mean... yes. Get it to us in a week... :)
17:12:12 <samkottler> where does the governance document stand at this point? we voted on a few key points last week - has that stuff been writtne up yet?
17:12:53 <samkottler> rbergeron: got any input on that? ^^
17:12:57 <number80> frankieonuonga: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud_PRD
17:13:20 <number80> frankieonuonga: it's the specifications that will define what are the goals of the future cloud product
17:13:30 <frankieonuonga> wow! ok
17:13:46 <frankieonuonga> but i think we should set a group deadline of december sometime
17:13:55 <rbergeron> sorry. i am now back (phone rang)
17:13:59 <frankieonuonga> cause once people go on xmas breaks ..well we all know how that goes
17:14:13 <number80> frankieonuonga: +1, it never hurts having a reviewing deadline
17:14:23 <rbergeron> the PRD ... I haven't had time (vacation and all) but I should be able to make some decent progress at least on the marketing-ish portions of it.
17:14:34 <samkottler> proposal: put together a group of people to get the PRD into a final draft state by december 15th
17:14:34 <rbergeron> I don't know if anyone's read through it and has questions or not regarding ... even if it makes sense, etc.
17:14:54 <frankieonuonga> i am +1 sam's idea
17:15:00 <frankieonuonga> dec 15 is perfect
17:15:06 <number80> samkottler: +1
17:15:12 <stahnma> rbergeron: I've read through it. I think it needs more content...less headings :)
17:15:17 <frankieonuonga> i also will volunteer to assist
17:15:31 <samkottler> stahnma: heading flow into content :)
17:15:33 <stahnma> rbergeron: no, I'm reading it. I'll comment in a bit.
17:15:36 <rbergeron> stahnma: yes, I agree at least about the content - it was mostly an outline and whatnot :)
17:15:50 <rbergeron> like: is this even the format to use (though it's fairly close to a standard PRD format)
17:15:53 <stahnma> I know. :)
17:16:12 <number80> rbergeron: i re-read it, but i'm waiting that openstack personnas are finalized so we could fill in the user profiles/use cases parts
17:16:14 <frankieonuonga> my opinion is for now we fill in all the topics…just to have things straight in..then later we will decide on what to send
17:16:29 <frankieonuonga> this makes sure we are sure of what we want in terms of all parts
17:16:35 <number80> i could kickstart personnas, but the ones provided are quite good already
17:16:37 <mattdm> fwiw I like the approach of making an outline and filling in
17:16:53 <rbergeron> number80: i think we may have things outside just the openstack personas that might work as well
17:16:57 <samkottler> mattdm: same, it makes figuring out what's gonna end up where much easier
17:17:47 <rbergeron> but they could be a nice start, assuming the content is reusable under a nice license and such
17:18:28 <samkottler> who is interested on working on the PRD?
17:18:40 * rbergeron as previously noted :)
17:18:41 * frankieonuonga is in to work on it
17:18:45 <stahnma> samkottler: I am, but I don't realistically know how much time I'll have.
17:18:48 <number80> rbergeron: agreed
17:19:02 <samkottler> also, do we want to take a vote on the dec 15 proposal?
17:19:19 <samkottler> #info rbergeron frankieonuonga stahnma samkottler to work on the PRD
17:19:22 <number80> samkottler: i am
17:19:24 <frankieonuonga> we have 8 chapters…three a week should not be hard…we should be done really fast
17:19:36 <frankieonuonga> dec 15 +1
17:19:46 <number80> (sorry, i am answering a gazillion of urgent emails :) )
17:19:58 <samkottler> +1 since I proposed it
17:20:01 <frankieonuonga> i assume 8 because of what is on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud_PRD
17:21:08 <samkottler> makes sense
17:22:00 <frankieonuonga> ok so we need other guys on the board to vote to proceed with this
17:22:41 <number80> +1
17:22:59 <rbergeron> +1 to dec 15
17:23:13 <geppetto> +1
17:23:54 <samkottler> #info the goal for PRD completion is december 15th, the pace needed for that will be determined on the list
17:24:12 <samkottler> anything else that's overflow from last meeting that we want to bring up before we talk about tickets?
17:24:59 <frankieonuonga> ok so lets proceed to next item on the list
17:25:13 <samkottler> #agreed  the goal for PRD completion is december 15th, the pace needed for that will be determined on the list (+5)
17:25:20 <samkottler> sorry, still getting used to meetbot :)
17:25:55 <samkottler> #topic pending tickets
17:26:26 <samkottler> #link https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/1
17:26:46 <samkottler> so dgilmore has asked for someone to work with him on rel-eng tasks
17:26:50 <samkottler> is there anyone who is interested in that?
17:27:04 <frankieonuonga> i was interested in rel eng as my primary role
17:27:08 <frankieonuonga> in the group
17:27:11 <geppetto> dgilmore: How much time would that take, roughly?
17:27:19 <dgilmore> geppetto: it will vary
17:27:31 <dgilmore> geppetto: and some of that depends on what you want to deliver
17:27:33 <frankieonuonga> but i needed to find out what is required .
17:27:43 <dgilmore> geppetto: if its decided to do weekly update images etc
17:27:52 <dgilmore> then likely quite a bit
17:28:04 <geppetto> frankieonuonga: If you want it, you got it :) … but if not I can probably do it, as I'm working with koji anyway atm.
17:28:22 <dgilmore> we need a lot of tooling work to automate building and uploading of images etc
17:28:26 <samkottler> I'd be willing to help out after the PRD + the item on the list (GCE) are done
17:28:59 <frankieonuonga> i think …em...
17:29:03 <dgilmore> part of it will be to liason with me to make sure im kept updated on reqirement changes
17:29:19 <dgilmore> part working on best practices to build and publish images
17:29:24 <frankieonuonga> i think that if  geppetto can assist me with learning koji i will take it up
17:29:30 <dgilmore> part working on tooling to do things
17:29:43 <dgilmore> koji is really a small part of it
17:29:47 <frankieonuonga> and I would be humbled and pleased to do this
17:30:16 <frankieonuonga> dgilmore:ok what else is required ?
17:30:25 <dgilmore> do we have plans to upload images to clouds other than EC2?
17:30:30 <stahnma> I'd love to do it, but again, I'd probably promise more time than I really have.
17:30:49 <samkottler> dgilmore: yeah, there's already google compute in the works and might be others
17:30:49 <dgilmore> frankieonuonga: well working on automating the upload of images to clouds we support
17:30:54 <samkottler> dgilmore: GCE is the next topic on the agenda
17:31:19 <dgilmore> samkottler: right, so part of this will be making sure we can upload simply and easily to every cloud we plan to
17:31:23 <number80> dgilmore: it would make sense (rackspace should be the next one right after EC2) but only if someone helps you
17:31:24 <dgilmore> frankieonuonga: ^
17:31:24 <frankieonuonga> dgilmore: if you can point me in the right direction ..i can do it
17:31:28 <frankieonuonga> not a problem
17:31:30 <samkottler> dgilmore: mhm
17:32:00 <samkottler> some of the clouds have very specific tools so a lot of the job will be learning how all the different clouds deal with images, I imagine
17:32:23 <dgilmore> well writing scripts to upload to them all
17:32:35 <samkottler> dgilmore: that too, of course
17:32:37 <number80> samkottler: would it make sense to have liaison with major cloud providers ?
17:32:38 <samkottler> #link https://git.fedorahosted.org/git/cloud-image-service.git
17:32:46 <frankieonuonga> dgilmore: ok got it. will take it up .
17:33:10 <frankieonuonga> and I am on liaison with cloudstack
17:33:14 <dgilmore> so we do say ./upload-image-to-clouds.py <Image> and it automagically goes to all and puts the into into the tree for all clouds like i manaully put into the AMI file today
17:33:19 <frankieonuonga> and at work we are building our own thing
17:33:23 <frankieonuonga> so it should help
17:33:49 <samkottler> #info frankieonuonga will work with dgilmore and others in rel-eng to communicate about WG plans and help automate different processes
17:33:59 <samkottler> number80: I think that makes sense
17:34:07 <samkottler> number80: mattdm has been doing that for a while I know
17:34:37 <frankieonuonga> ok great.so dgilmore will def mail you tomorrow to see the way forward with this
17:34:52 <dgilmore> frankieonuonga: cool, please join #fedora-releng
17:35:03 <samkottler> excellent, thanks frankieonuonga!
17:35:05 <rbergeron> wait, are we all on teh same page here about "images for a public cloud" vs. "images for different types of IaaS" ?
17:35:23 <dgilmore> rbergeron: we want both :)
17:35:31 <frankieonuonga> cool. sure
17:35:34 <dgilmore> ideally they are the same
17:35:40 <rbergeron> vs. "having a tool that people can also use to make an image and directly upload it into their own public cloud"
17:35:41 <samkottler> or "all" depending on your worldview
17:36:08 <rbergeron> dgilmore: i agree, the scope of what was discussed here seems to be all over the place and i was just making sure we were all talking about apples and apples
17:36:58 <dgilmore> rbergeron: well, i think the scope is that we make the images like we do today, which works in public clouds and IaaS
17:37:18 <samkottler> so to clarify, we're talking about official fedora images that rel-eng produces for AWS and other public clouds right now, was well as private clouds, is that right rbergeron?
17:37:20 <dgilmore> rbergeron: but expand to upload to more public clouds than amazon
17:38:16 <number80> We should be able to test images at least on both eucalyptus and openstack on infra cloud
17:38:17 <rbergeron> samkottler: rel-eng produces & (uploads to public clouds) + (makes available for private clouds)
17:38:49 <rbergeron> and: tooling so people can make their own images and deploy them as needed (AIUI diskimagebuilder may be standalone?)
17:39:28 <samkottler> rbergeron: the job of building tools to make things easier for people who want to build their own images feels outside the scope of this role to me
17:39:46 <dgilmore> rbergeron: all the tooling we use should be documented so people can do as we do
17:39:48 <frankieonuonga> guys…i am sorry but i feel like we are really going into detail of something that can be discussed on email . can we do other tickets then if we have time come back to this ..but this is just me ..i might be very very wrong
17:40:27 <rbergeron> okay, fair enough - we can move onwards
17:40:27 * samkottler thinks this is important to sort out and will be easier in real time
17:40:34 <samkottler> we've got one other ticket
17:40:41 <rbergeron> oh, that's it?
17:40:46 <samkottler> #link https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/2
17:40:50 <rbergeron> well - my point was mostly to make sure we were talking about the same things was all :)
17:40:55 <rbergeron> since i was seeing references to both
17:41:09 <samkottler> mattdm rbergeron and I have been talking with the google compute engine folks
17:41:20 <dgilmore> rbergeron: well I want to be able to deliver sanely everything that the WG wants
17:41:31 <samkottler> and they're interested in seeing fedora images on the platform
17:41:38 <frankieonuonga> that is nice
17:41:39 <dgilmore> rbergeron: so to me the role of liason is to help me do that
17:41:47 * nirik can answer questions about the fedora infrastructure private cloud if there are any.
17:41:52 <number80> GCE is still private beta, you need some gold or whatever metal account to get access to it
17:42:01 <rbergeron> UNOBTAINIUM
17:42:07 <rbergeron> sorry, had to be said
17:42:15 <dgilmore> rbergeron: :)
17:42:17 <number80> rbergeron: ;)
17:42:39 <samkottler> number80: that's not true anymore
17:42:39 <frankieonuonga> nirik: welcome man..did not know you were here…but seriously dude, do you ever sleep?
17:42:44 <samkottler> you can just signup now AFAIK
17:42:45 <dgilmore> rbergeron: i want to make sure all doors and options are open
17:42:45 <number80> nirik: which IaaS are deployed on infra and could we get access keys for our testing purposes ?
17:42:48 <number80> samkottler: awesome
17:43:00 <rbergeron> dgilmore: fair enough, and that is appreciated :)
17:43:19 <samkottler> so re: GCE, there's an agreement that everyone who wants to work on the images has to sign
17:43:21 <dgilmore> number80: openstack
17:43:26 <nirik> number80: openstack folsom is what we have currently. yes, we could create accounts for people if there was a list of them or whatever.
17:43:47 <rbergeron> okay - do we want to move on? I think maybe we are all on the same page here, minus the "tools to do things" and if that's in our scope or not but ... maybe that's a thing the PRD can sort out as well
17:44:06 <frankieonuonga> yeah we need to move on..dont have much time
17:44:13 <number80> yup
17:44:35 <dgilmore> samkottler: next :)
17:44:49 <samkottler> google compute
17:45:14 <samkottler> as I said before, people who want access to the image building tools need to sign an agreement with google
17:45:31 <samkottler> that gives you access to more advanced tools
17:45:52 <frankieonuonga> so for those of us who are way across the globe…what happens? how do we sign ?
17:46:14 <samkottler> frankieonuonga: it's not an actual signature, just the click of a button to say you agree
17:46:28 <dgilmore> samkottler: what exactly are the image building tools? and what is the license of them?
17:46:29 <frankieonuonga> oh…ok
17:46:36 * frankieonuonga feeling stupid
17:46:53 <samkottler> dgilmore: I haven't looked too closely, but they're all proprietary to the google cloud AFAICT
17:46:58 <samkottler> so that's fun
17:47:05 <dgilmore> samkottler: for ec2 uploading we use euca2ools and not amazons tools because we have a requirement of everything being open source
17:47:05 <frankieonuonga> one more q…is this a black box
17:47:07 <samkottler> frankieonuonga: naw, I wasn't clear about it :)
17:47:13 <number80> GCE client API are also fun to use ...
17:47:30 <dgilmore> samkottler: so we will need an open tool to use
17:47:37 <frankieonuonga> i would sign if i know exactly what I am running on my machine.
17:48:18 <samkottler> #action samkottler to do more research into the actual tools and their licenses that are required to build GCE images
17:48:28 <stahnma> sorry, I was afk
17:48:29 <number80> dgilmore: AWS is rewriting their tools as FOSS (AFAIK MIT), aws-cli is on my TODO (i still have to fix packaging for dependencies)
17:48:42 <dgilmore> number80: that would be awesome
17:48:44 <stahnma> if you need help/people to talk to, etc for GCE, I know people :)
17:48:57 <number80> dgilmore: i'll look to push this soon :)
17:49:09 <dgilmore> number80: i want to have HVM images but to date ive not been able to upload and register them right
17:49:28 <frankieonuonga> stahnma: this should be interesting . cool! thanks
17:49:37 <stahnma> we work them quite a bit
17:49:51 <samkottler> so assuming there are open tools, which I will find out today, who is interested in working on those images?
17:49:56 <stahnma> gcutil is open
17:50:02 <frankieonuonga> stahnma: can you kindly mail me so we can follow this up
17:50:10 <samkottler> stahnma: it has bundled libs IIRC :(
17:50:16 <stahnma> samkottler: boo
17:50:23 <stahnma> samkottler: we have some other code that interfaces with GCE
17:50:28 <stahnma> I'll check licenses
17:51:04 <samkottler> stahnma: thanks - if I'm wrong and gcutil is "packageable" then I can do that this weekend
17:51:19 <frankieonuonga> just as a comment …i dont think guys will run stuff that interfaces with a tool. people can be paranoid about their stuff running…like I personally am paranoid
17:51:20 <stahnma> it's in ubuntu ;)
17:51:39 <stahnma> frankieonuonga: no, interfaces with their API, not the tool
17:51:50 <samkottler> stahnma: that might be fighting *against* your case :)
17:52:07 <geppetto> stahnma: If it's not in debian too, that probably means it's bad.
17:52:17 <samkottler> geppetto: heh, yeah exactly
17:52:58 <number80> mostly FOSS bundled library, it should be ok
17:53:03 <stahnma> samkottler: I think I just keep on trolling all day
17:53:13 <number80> i could give a shot to packaging
17:53:16 <frankieonuonga> stahnma: just to be clear, so it interfaces with what is used to build the images right?
17:53:48 <stahnma> frankieonuonga: hmm. I'll have to check. I was talking more about working with images. So, I might be orthoginal
17:53:55 <samkottler> frankieonuonga: we can figure that out later
17:53:58 <samkottler> we've only got 7 minutes left
17:54:14 <frankieonuonga> ok next
17:54:14 <samkottler> number80: that'd be great, let me know us know if you need help or a review
17:54:21 <samkottler> #topic open floor
17:54:21 <number80> samkottler: ok
17:54:28 <frankieonuonga> stahnma: lets talk on email please
17:54:34 <number80> #info hguemar looking to package gcutil
17:55:15 <number80> since nirik kindly offered us to give us account on fedora cloud, who needs one for testing images on openstack ?
17:55:44 * samkottler has one already
17:55:55 <nirik> note however that uploading images still takes admin I think... at least I don't know what privs are needed for that off hand.
17:56:19 * stahnma has other openstacks available
17:56:37 <number80> nirik: it should be possible to give away image uploading priviledges
17:56:53 * number80 has devstack instances
17:57:03 <nirik> yeah, it's a matter of figuring it out. ;)
17:57:18 <rbergeron> here a stack, there a stack, everywhere a stack stack
17:57:35 <nirik> old mac donald had a stack? ;)
17:57:44 <number80> never mind the stacks :)
17:57:53 <rbergeron> number80: that is a great shirt :)
17:57:53 <samkottler> rbergeron: I assume you'll be performing your little ditty at the next flock?
17:58:02 <rbergeron> samkottler: i have the overalls to go with it
17:58:19 <samkottler> oh god :P
17:58:30 <frankieonuonga> I hope I can make it to net flock..hopefully can save enough for it
17:58:53 <number80> frankieonuonga: there's sponsoring if you need it
17:59:03 <samkottler> frankieonuonga: there's also sponsorship :)
17:59:09 <samkottler> what number80 said
17:59:13 <frankieonuonga> number80: oh. well that would be nice
17:59:20 <samkottler> okay, anything else people have got?
17:59:21 <frankieonuonga> samkottler: cool
17:59:41 <number80> samkottler: i'm done for my part :)
18:00:01 <frankieonuonga> I don't have anything just yet
18:00:22 <frankieonuonga> but if guys want to reach me apart from meeting i am all open.
18:00:32 <frankieonuonga> even cell phone number..e.t.c e.t.c
18:00:48 <samkottler> 3....2.....
18:01:07 <frankieonuonga> ciao guys
18:01:08 <samkottler> #endmeeting