16:02:20 <geppetto> #startmeeting fpc
16:02:20 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Aug 21 16:02:20 2014 UTC.  The chair is geppetto. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:02:20 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:02:20 <geppetto> #meetingname fpc
16:02:20 <geppetto> #topic Roll Call
16:02:20 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fpc'
16:02:45 <geppetto> abadger1999 tibbs|w limburgher Rathann SmootherFr0gZ RemiFedora racor spot: FPC ping
16:02:59 * RemiFedora here
16:03:15 <geppetto> #chair RemiFedora
16:03:15 <zodbot> Current chairs: RemiFedora geppetto
16:04:05 <geppetto> #chair racor
16:04:06 <zodbot> Current chairs: RemiFedora geppetto racor
16:07:50 <geppetto> abadger1999 tibbs|w limburgher Rathann SmootherFr0gZ spot: FPC ping the 2nd
16:09:56 * limburgher is here for a change
16:10:13 <geppetto> #chair limburgher
16:10:13 <zodbot> Current chairs: RemiFedora geppetto limburgher racor
16:16:09 <geppetto> #topic Open Floor
16:16:24 <geppetto> Looks like we'll be one off, so anyone want to discuss anything in particular?
16:17:00 <limburgher> I have nothing in particular.
16:18:30 <tibbs|w> Nothing from me.
16:19:00 <langdon> now that I am finally back in the swing of things (and I am not finding quite the right ticket in trac), I would like to ask "what is the status of scl in fedora?"
16:19:21 <tibbs|w> Still as hideous as always?
16:19:49 <langdon> tibbs|w: lol :)
16:20:20 <geppetto> langdon: Not going great, I guess. It's not moved for weeks now, and abadger1999 has left RH (and is on vacation atm.)
16:20:28 <limburgher> I try so hard not so say certain things, and then tibbs|w comes along. . .
16:20:42 <limburgher> s/so/to/g
16:20:53 <tibbs|w> SCLs are just one thing where it's hard to keep my mouth shut.
16:21:07 <geppetto> I was looking at it a bit too, but that wasn't encouraging … and I've been doing other stuff for weeks now too.
16:21:09 <langdon> tibbs|w: wow.. i have that problem with sooooo many things
16:21:09 <limburgher> I have the same problem with fried cheese.
16:21:36 <geppetto> limburgher: fried cheese is not hideous
16:22:58 <limburgher> geppetto:  My sentiments exactly.
16:23:33 <langdon> ok.. last i knew we had only a couple blockers left, all of which were on the roadmap for fixing in rhscl anyway.. would it be worth opening a new ticket with just those couple blockers? would it be worth just considering this for "playground" (read: playground = not quite fedora main, but not nec. literally "playground")?
16:23:47 <langdon> or something else?
16:24:15 <langdon> by playground, i potentially just mean a "problem for envs and stacks WG" rather than fpc?
16:24:21 <geppetto> yeh, I think it would be a huge boon to not just start shipping scls in fedora main … no matter what else happens.
16:25:11 <geppetto> I would also def. +1 vote for a semi-official fedora-scl repo. … so people can start "shipping them in Fedora"
16:26:38 <geppetto> But I know some of the things we were getting complaints about too … like someone was saying that SCLs are useless if they can't ship all the SCL gunk in the main package git repo.
16:27:06 <geppetto> So … "couple of blockers left", might be optimistic.
16:27:23 <RemiFedora> yes we have a strong disagremment on the "name" rule and on the "git" rule
16:27:37 <limburgher> It's like fusion power.  I think it's realistically 10 years away, just like it's been for 50 years.
16:27:51 <geppetto> limburgher: ipv6
16:28:03 <langdon> limburgher: btrfs
16:28:16 <RemiFedora> fedora server ...
16:28:18 <limburgher> geppetto:  I just hope the yum replacement isn't named that way for that reason. . .
16:28:18 <RemiFedora> => []
16:28:49 <geppetto> limburgher: you should have tried it by now … it's going to ship in f21, right?
16:29:21 <limburgher> geppetto: I was kidding, just had to get in the mandatory Duke Nukem reference.  It's actually quite nice.
16:30:05 <geppetto> cool, feel free to tell Ales … he'll be happy to get messages that aren't complaints, I think :)
16:30:15 * langdon thinks that maybe hardcore punk is not the most conducive background music for meetings
16:30:37 <limburgher> langdon: I can't quite make it out, could you turn it up a bit?
16:30:56 <geppetto> yeh, probably too light … you want to start with black death metal, and then go more agressive
16:31:29 * langdon looks for punkrockd fedora change request
16:31:34 <limburgher> Slow Type O Negative to 4bpm.
16:31:50 <tibbs|w> I thought it was already at 4bpm.
16:31:57 * limburgher rimshot
16:32:43 * langdon punkrockctl louder-now-i-really-mean-it now
16:33:30 <limburgher> setpunkrock=11
16:33:57 <geppetto> Anyway … going to close the meeting at 12:35, unless anyway brings anything up we need to discuss.
16:34:26 <langdon> so, y'all are the experts.. but, personally, I recommend you make it envs & stacks problem (similar to playground) and call it a day.. when the base wg group wants to adopt scls, they solve these problems.. at least so we can finally get some traction..
16:36:14 * limburgher staples mouth shut
16:36:24 * limburgher clarifies, *own* mouth
16:36:59 <RemiFedora> I still think we need Guidelines for SCL in main repo
16:37:23 <RemiFedora> yes, we can say, use a third party repo for stuff we are not able to handle... but this is really a shame
16:39:05 <racor> I think, SCLs in Fedora don't make sense ...
16:39:10 <RemiFedora> SCL should be a single line Guideline : "No conflicts with base packages".  that's all
16:39:43 <RemiFedora> racor, For ex. I plan to work on next PHP  (php 7.0) which will be a 2 years dev. cycle
16:39:57 <RemiFedora> so I need 2 versions of PHP, in Fedora.
16:40:09 <RemiFedora> And I really think SCL is the better way to achieve this
16:40:11 <racor> RemiFedora: Unstable => Not in Fedora
16:40:59 <racor> RemiFedora: Seriously, why do you want to put unstable works into a _stable_ distro?
16:41:03 <RemiFedora> racor, stable vs unstable is not the problem here
16:41:40 <RemiFedora> at some point we'll need 2 version php 5 and php 7 (when stable if you prefer) as we have python 2 and 3
16:42:16 <racor> RemiFedora: Then upgrade and be done with it, or design php7 in such a way it can be installed in parallel, No SCL crap required.
16:42:23 <limburgher> And how are SCLs better than handling it like we do python?
16:42:32 <RemiFedora> but SCL is much more simpler, clean
16:42:37 <racor> limburgher: Exactly.
16:42:47 <RemiFedora> I really nobodu take time to look really how SCL works
16:42:48 <limburgher> Or that thing I advocated for a long time that rhymes with wombat snackages?
16:43:01 <tibbs|w> Hey, I gave up.
16:43:24 <racor> RemiFedora: I disagree. Parallel installation normal only requires a couple of paths and thats it.
16:43:49 <limburgher> tibbs|w: me too, but hey. . .
16:43:49 <racor> C.g. gnome, qt and others
16:44:21 <Rathann> hi
16:44:30 <Rathann> looks like I missed everything :(
16:44:46 <limburgher> For certain fairly silly values of everything, yes.
16:45:20 <Rathann> sorry, we had a visit from a friend whom we hadn't seen for a long time
16:45:24 <limburgher> Nice!
16:46:37 <RemiFedora> so please close the SCL ticket with stae "we don't allow SCL in Fedora" and sent it back to Fesco
16:46:46 <RemiFedora> It's a shame to have this ticket open for nearly 1 year
16:46:53 <RemiFedora> ok, we disagree on SCL usage
16:47:28 <RemiFedora> I'm probably the only one who want to see SCL in fedora
16:47:48 <langdon> well.. i do ;)
16:47:59 <RemiFedora> so, what do we keep on discussing. Please support your thinking. And tell it
16:48:52 <RemiFedora> some people still believe we work on the Guidelines, which is obviously wrong.
16:49:23 <RemiFedora> don't let them wait more time. Close the ticket. Say it to devel@. And that's all
16:49:30 <RemiFedora> So we can start working on something else
16:49:47 <RemiFedora> and find another way for SCL outside Fedora
16:50:32 <geppetto> I'm not sure we want to just reject it
16:50:52 <geppetto> But I don't think it's a great solution to the php/python problems.
16:51:29 <limburgher> I think there are a fair number who do want it in Fedora, and it's not really our place to tell them no, just to make sure it's done sanely.  That doesn't stop me from thinking it's a solution in search of a problem.
16:51:41 <geppetto> In fact until I see a decent set of SCLs for python/php/ruby that do the multiversion thing well, I'm not convinced it's a good solution at the language layer
16:52:16 <RemiFedora> I think it works perfectly for PHP
16:52:39 <RemiFedora> but I won't argue anymore.
16:52:58 <geppetto> RemiFedora: And it'd be hard to have the traditional behaviour work well?
16:53:10 <RemiFedora> It is obvious SCL won't happens in Fedora.
16:53:16 <limburgher> Not to me.
16:53:26 <limburgher> Just that it will be exceedingly painful.
16:54:20 <Rathann> sorry, my daughter is dragging me away
16:54:29 <Rathann> I'll read the logs later
16:55:26 <geppetto> Might as well end anyway … and if someone could give RemiFedora a RL hug, that'd probably be good :)
16:55:45 <geppetto> Although I understand why he feels down.
16:55:52 <limburgher> No kidding.
16:56:53 <geppetto> #endmeeting