16:05:15 #startmeeting Server Working Group Weekly Meeting (2014-12-09) 16:05:15 Meeting started Tue Dec 9 16:05:15 2014 UTC. The chair is sgallagh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 16:05:15 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 16:05:18 #chair sgallagh mizmo nirik stefw adamw simo tuanta mitr 16:05:18 Current chairs: adamw mitr mizmo nirik sgallagh simo stefw tuanta 16:05:26 .hello tuanta 16:05:28 #topic roll call 16:05:29 .hello stefw 16:05:34 tuanta: tuanta 'Truong Anh Tuan' 16:05:37 .hello junland 16:05:38 stefw: stefw 'Stef Walter' 16:05:47 junland: junland 'John Unland' 16:05:47 .hello simo 16:05:51 simo: simo 'Simo Sorce' 16:05:55 * nirik is sort of here, but on super slow link and watching for release day problems 16:06:24 .fas bvincent 16:06:25 bvincent: bvincent 'Brandon Vincent' 16:06:27 .hello dmossor 16:06:31 danofsatx-work: dmossor 'Dan Mossor' 16:06:57 mitr said last week he would be absent 16:07:03 let's clean that up a little, shall we? 16:07:04 .hello adamwill 16:07:11 adamw: adamwill 'Adam Williamson' 16:08:23 I think that's everyone but mitr and mizmo (who I've pinged) 16:08:32 * omzim here :) 16:08:41 Great 16:08:46 #topic Agenda 16:08:55 * masta lurks 16:09:09 #info Agenda Item: Select new WG member 16:09:19 #info Agenda Item: Fedora 22 High-Level Planning 16:09:27 Other Agenda items for this week? 16:09:47 #chair omzim 16:09:47 Current chairs: adamw mitr mizmo nirik omzim sgallagh simo stefw tuanta 16:11:00 OK, then let's get started. 16:11:04 #topic Select new WG member 16:11:32 #info Candidate: Dan Callaghan 16:11:32 #info Candidate: Brandon Vincent 16:11:32 #info Candidate: Dan Mossor 16:11:32 #info Candidate: Danishka Navin 16:11:32 #info Candidate: Michael J Wolf 16:11:53 So, I'm *very* pleased to say that we have had a lot of interest in filling this seat. 16:12:04 So much so, that this is unlikely to be an easy decision. 16:12:11 it's a good problem to have :D 16:12:22 :) 16:12:23 oh hey! i guess i should've been reading about candidates and stuff. 16:12:30 #info Reminder to all candidates: a seat on the Working Group is not required to participate in the Fedora Server SIG 16:12:32 * danofsatx warms up in his corner 16:12:34 * adamw holds sign saying Vote For Sale 16:12:49 * danofsatx pays adamw 16:13:14 The Working Group is primarily an organization for setting overall direction and resolving conflicts when necessary. 16:13:36 The "do-ers" of the Fedora Server SIG, both on and off the WG, are most valued. 16:14:00 Indeed. 16:14:23 So, first off: if you are one of these candidates, please sound off so we know you are here. I already see Dan Mossor (danofsatx) 16:14:40 Present and accounted for. 16:14:52 I also saw Brandon Vincent chime in during roll-call 16:15:01 .fasinfo dmossor 16:15:01 bvincent is also available here 16:15:03 I am here. 16:15:07 danofsatx: User: dmossor, Name: Dan Mossor, email: danofsatx@gmail.com, Creation: 2013-09-19, IRC Nick: danofsatx, Timezone: US/Central, Locale: en, GPG key ID: , Status: active 16:15:10 danofsatx: Approved Groups: fi-apprentice fedorabugs +qa cla_done cla_fpca 16:15:37 .fasinfo bvincent 16:15:43 tuanta: User: bvincent, Name: Brandon Vincent, email: Brandon.Vincent@asu.edu, Creation: 2014-07-30, IRC Nick: bvincent, Timezone: US/Arizona, Locale: en, GPG key ID: None, Status: active 16:15:47 tuanta: Approved Groups: security-team fedorabugs qa cla_done cla_fpca 16:16:53 OK, it's understood that not everyone who was nominated for this position was able to attend at this time (some for time-zone reasons). 16:17:07 +1 sgallagh 16:17:09 That alone should not be a disqualification, naturally. 16:17:32 We need to discuss the criteria by which we will select a new member of the WG. 16:17:53 battle royale. 16:18:19 I'm personally inclined most heavily towards "promoting" SIG members who have been "do-ers", but there are other concerns, particularly in terms of re-filling the role of the empty chair. 16:18:21 Hunger Games / Battle Royale. 16:18:25 bvincent wields 4096-bit RSA key. 16:19:04 * danofsatx sharpens his F21 Server DVD throwing stars 16:19:22 Originally, David Strauss was selected because he was actually deploying real-world Fedora Servers in medium and large environments. The intent was to have a voice on this council that strongly represented that real-world use-case. 16:19:31 Lest we fill our ranks with too many engineers. 16:20:05 Anyone else is free to jump in with their most important criteria... 16:20:12 sgallah: What other people would like besides engineers? 16:20:31 $dayjob calls, I'll be back in less than 5 mins 16:20:33 junland: We have omzim representing the designer side of things. She developed the Personas we use. 16:20:46 junland: tuanta is our resident Ambassador and end-user voice. 16:20:46 Ah. 16:21:04 yes, thanks sgallagh 16:21:20 coming from a UX background for me its important that we have representation of folks who manage real-world server deployment, preferably larger-scale deployments 16:21:26 Blurring the lines, we have adamw who is our QA expert (which is *somewhat* of an engineering task, but a different perspective from developers) 16:21:28 Do we have anyone representing Small Business / SOHO. Just curious. 16:22:27 Oh My Zim ... 16:22:29 junland: From an engineering perspective, stefw somewhat. But not from a primarly-consumer perspective. 16:22:37 * simo suddenly realize to read it backwards 16:22:51 Yes, it's evil, alternate-universe mizmo 16:23:37 Haha. 16:23:42 ok so of the candidates, how would they primarily qualify themselves ? 16:23:55 (someon need to fill in for the absents) 16:24:02 Please see the summary email I sent with their self-introductions 16:24:10 I'd lean towards academia. 16:24:26 * omzim points at goatee http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/cf/46/db/cf46db9ff9f17500eef326c2bb0e24f0.jpg 16:24:30 So far, it kind of seems that we have a general sense of wanting to fill this seat with someone having knowledge of larger deployments? 16:24:32 Is that fair to say? 16:24:51 yes, fair 16:25:23 +1 16:25:36 Agreed, although I'm for SB's I would say this is fair... :) 16:25:45 danofsatx: Do you want to pigeonhole^W categorize yourself? 16:26:14 did michael wolf make it? i am interested in learning more about his background 16:26:22 +1 sgallagh 16:27:10 dammit, plasma5 locked up my desktop. 16:27:21 omzim: +1 16:27:25 Yeah, unfortunately his intro is a little light. I'd like to know more about what he wants to do. 16:27:41 danofsatx-kf: simo: ok so of the candidates, how would they primarily qualify themselves ? 16:27:42 I am a "systems engineer", wherein my job is to make heterogenous, incompatible systems work. 16:27:58 bvincent, are you a system admin for asu? 16:28:00 s/work/work together 16:28:10 I am deploying an infrastu 16:28:12 omzim: Of sorts. 16:28:34 omzim: I dabble with quite a few jobs. 16:28:40 erm, I am deploying a small infrastructure built on F21 servers 16:29:10 bvincent, are you most like macguyver here? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Server/Personas#Persona_.231:_SysAdmin_MacGuyver 16:29:43 omzim: I would have to agree... 16:29:53 If I could get to my desktop, I'd point y'all to my persona...let me see if I can dig it up on the kindle 16:29:55 sgallagh, i think that might actually be a good way to go actually is to try to align each candidate with a persona 16:30:26 That's a great idea. 16:30:50 omzim: That works if we're agreeing to limit ourselves to end-user/admin candidates. A couple of the candidates are developer-types. 16:31:09 sgallagh, we have a dev persona tho 16:31:17 we have 2 dev personas actually 16:31:30 one is dev ops, the other is traditional app dev 16:31:33 Ah, right. 16:31:37 And also Role Creator 16:31:40 yep 16:31:41 OK, so yeah. 16:31:49 I withdraw my concern. Pigeonhole away! 16:31:54 lol 16:32:12 * omzim starts writing up a Cosmo-style quiz, "which server persona are you??" 16:32:24 IIRC, davidstrauss self-categorized as https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Server/Personas#Persona_.235:_Decision-Maker right? 16:32:54 omzim: I'll contact Zimbio 16:34:25 Dan Callaghan sounds like a pretty clear "Traditional App Developer" from his description. Yes? 16:34:40 yes, sgallagh 16:34:48 But he self-identified as a MacGuyver as well 16:34:59 /me wonders how many people *wouldn't* claim to be MacGuyver, given the chance. 16:35:01 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Dmossor/ServerWG-persona 16:35:21 danofsatx-kf: That's... complete. 16:36:02 why, thank ye....thank ye very much. it was a sort of cut/paste/modify from the McGuyver, IIRC 16:36:32 To be fair, Danishka looks like a significant knowledge overlap with tuanta. 16:36:49 yes, you are right, sgallagh 16:36:58 I'd suggest asking him to work closely with tuanta as a team, rather than as a new member at this time. Thoughts? 16:37:00 danofsatx-kf, ooh nice 16:37:10 sgallagh, +1 16:37:12 I think so too, sgallagh 16:37:20 my weakness in the role we are attempting to fill is that I do not currently maintain a medium to large size infrstructure, however I have in the past. 16:37:36 danofsatx-kf, which may mean you have more time to participate hehe 16:37:46 I like the way omzim thnks 16:37:48 *thinks 16:37:53 :) 16:38:19 heh....except my infrastructure is currently Dell Optiplexes-come-PowerEdges 16:38:26 Without additional information, I don't think we can really consider Michael Wolf for a seat, but we should encourage him to participate. 16:38:34 takes a *LOT* of babysitting 16:38:57 No Precisions? The bane of my existence. 16:38:59 +1 sgallagh 16:39:20 #info The Server WG feels that Danishka Navin would be most helpful as a teammate with tuanta at this time. 16:39:25 nah, I "killed" (wink, wink) the last one on a bios update 16:39:49 Poor Opti. 16:40:01 Thoughts on ruling out Michael Wolf? 16:40:02 Dan Callaghan self-identifies as traditional application dev 16:40:04 the last precision, that is 16:40:11 (We have to narrow this down somehow) 16:40:11 Ah. 16:40:12 sgallagh, it seems fair - he didn't provide enough info for us to make a fair eval 16:40:23 yeah 16:40:30 * junland agrees. 16:40:50 * danofsatx-kf would agree, but feels that would be unfair 16:41:29 if we have to choose now, i agree 16:41:50 #info The Server WG looks forward to working with Michael Wolf in the Server SIG, but we feel that there was not enough information in his self-nomination to make a fair determination for a seat on the Working Group. 16:42:01 adamw: Well, we gave people two weeks to "campaign" 16:42:25 uh oh 16:42:27 * omzim notes the more time folks put into campaigning may indicate they are more likely to have time to participate in the wg 16:42:37 * danofsatx-kf didn't run a good email campaign 16:42:56 * simo agrees, +1 16:42:58 danofsatx-kf: Your email was fine. 16:43:17 if he stick around he'll have a chance next time, and he can do all the things he'd do on the seat anyway 16:43:27 So we've narrowed it down to Brandon and the two Dans 16:43:36 who did I miss ? 16:43:41 I thoiught they were 5 16:43:58 Dan Callaghan did note in his email that he might not have time 16:44:00 simo: We recommended that Danishka would be best as a teammate with tuanta, since their skill were pretty much overlapping 16:44:09 * omzim is all about the time 16:44:16 ah sorry, yeah, read the backlog right now 16:44:19 omzim: All time, all the time? 16:44:31 ok let's go on 16:44:37 sgallagh, how timely a time rhyme 16:44:38 are the 3 remaining ones all here ? 16:44:46 Dan Callaghan is not. 16:44:47 can we start the battle royale now? 16:44:57 * omzim starts setting up the cage 16:44:57 ah, so more of a duel then. 16:44:59 "I hesitate to nominate myself for a seat on the WG because I'm not sure I can commit the time." -- Dan Callaghan 16:45:12 The WG *is* a time commitment. 16:45:17 ok\ 16:45:21 +1 sgallagh 16:45:29 also I think being able to participate to the meeting is important 16:45:32 (In some cases, even a time-*sink*) 16:45:39 +1 simo 16:45:45 I mean the WG only does boring bureaucratic stuff really 16:45:45 The FST has pretty bad meetings. 16:45:47 I've devoted enough time to it already....how much more do y'all want? 16:45:51 if that work can't be done ... 16:46:03 I do not want to exclude people on time zone basis in principle 16:46:16 a great candidate will get on the WG wherever he is 16:46:18 bvincent: "I have a lot 16:46:18 of free time on my hands which I would like to contribute to an project and philosophy I care greatly about." 16:46:21 danofsatx-kf: Yeah, you've clearly proven you can meet the "time-commitment" requirement 16:46:30 but I think it needs to be proven to be 16:46:41 omzim: Little work + no sleep. 16:46:43 danofsatx: all of it. all of the time. 16:46:44 simo: To be fair, a great candidate is worth finding a new meeting time also :) 16:46:47 in fact, I believe i've donated blood to the cause already. These dells aren't dull.... 16:46:50 sgallagh: absolutely 16:47:06 the point is we have only a short declaration 16:47:18 /me nods 16:47:19 and we are playing the exclusion game 16:47:22 danofsatx-kf is one of our spokesmodels (Along with junland) https://getfedora.org/server/ 16:47:34 :) 16:47:45 OK, so shall we agree to take Dan Callaghan out of the running, due to the lack of time guarantee? 16:47:49 +1 16:47:51 so given all 3 participants unfortunately we need to take one more out 16:47:54 yeah - I've been telling all my friends that I've been published ;) 16:48:01 * junland agrees 16:48:20 danosatx-kf: Same here :) 16:48:43 I hope Dan and the others will participate in Fedora Server and earn a place on the WG later on if they like the bureaucratic side too 16:48:55 sgallagh, +1 yeh 16:48:59 +1 sgallagh 16:49:16 #info The Server WG looks forward to collaborating with Dan Callaghan, but without a certainty of being able to meet the time-commitment, we will not give him the open seat at this time. 16:49:36 OK, danofsatx-kf vs bvincent: FIGHT! 16:49:50 * danofsatx-kf tosses the first DVD star 16:50:00 I hope to be a "seated member" once I get more into the community and get out of college... 16:50:05 lol, sgallagh 16:50:17 bvincent prepares trapdoor function. 16:50:17 Fatality. 16:50:37 ok, Jack of all Trades in one corner and Trade of all Jacks in the other 16:50:39 who wins ? 16:50:46 the immovable object. 16:50:57 but but I am applying an irresistible force!! 16:50:57 Epic Rap Battle? 16:51:04 up up down down left right left right 16:51:16 So, my personal thoughts: danofsatx-kf has been contributing a great deal of time to Fedora Server thus far, and that's worth recognizing. That being said, Brandon represents a segment of our potential user base that we don't really have a window into today. 16:51:22 a b a b a dd a bb a c up down start 16:51:23 * danofsatx has quit (Remote host closed the connection) <= bvincent you werent kidding about the trapdoor 16:51:32 lol 16:51:36 Uh oh... 16:51:38 that was my locked up plasma5 desktop 16:51:39 /me snorts 16:51:39 ok 16:51:43 I'm still here 16:51:49 personally I know/saw what Dan has done 16:51:56 bvincent: sell yourself hard to us :) 16:53:10 (Also, because I love repeating myself: a lack of a WG seat should not in any way discourage anyone from participating) 16:53:20 bvincent, one of the things that stnads out to me is that danofsatx-kf has experience as a sysadmin since 1993, how far back does your experience go 16:53:24 and it hasn't in my case 16:54:01 I'll contribute what I can, with or without an "official" vote 16:54:02 I'm mostly a self-enlightened security fanatic. I can't say I have much experience before the last decade. 16:54:23 Right now, I'm trying to write a OpenCL version of the Lucas�Lehmer test - if anyone cares... 16:54:23 * danofsatx-kf thinks he can twist the arms of sgallagh and adamw when needed 16:54:43 * junland looks up LucasLehmer 16:54:52 bvincent: what would you think is the reason you should be selected ? 16:55:20 I feel like Fedora has always been a little poor on security consciousness. 16:55:25 Yay math! 16:55:32 ahhh...much better. real keyboard. 16:56:02 bvincent: That's certainly a topic I'd love to discuss with you, but I see the potential rat-hole :) 16:56:19 Right now, we are fueling a pretty heated debate about the PermitRootLogin behavior in OpenSSH and the default firewall behavior in Fedora. 16:56:27 bvincent: I agree whole heartedly. in fact, Workstation shipping with all high level ports open is just asking for trouble - that should have *never* made it through any committee 16:56:32 As for security consciousness, mitr, simo and I all come from a security background. 16:56:44 So I'd like to believe that this is reasonably well covered in the WG to date. 16:57:06 * danofsatx was CISSP certified, and has spent the last 10 years working for/with the AFCERT 16:57:07 /me notes that Server is locked down like a 16:57:15 *insert good metaphor here* 16:57:20 :) 16:57:20 Haha. 16:57:44 Oh, and stefw. Sorry didn't mean to leave you out of that list. 16:57:48 The flaws are a little more package oriented than default configuration settings. 16:57:59 sgallagh, no worries ... 16:58:04 Honestly, the more recent tomcat packages are abysmal. 16:58:21 ok 16:58:33 Which are included by default (by accident) in server? 16:58:43 bvincent: Dogtag pulls them in 16:58:50 bvincent: I think you'll have great chances to participate in the WG, but I have to say I think Dan brings in a point of view that we need more 16:58:59 * simo made his mind up and votes for Dan 16:59:06 I think I agree with Simo. +1 danofsatx-kf 16:59:09 simo: I'll be hanging around... 16:59:14 bvincent, yes please do 16:59:17 bvincent: I hope you do. We'll have much to discuss 16:59:22 bvincent: I certainly hope so 16:59:30 yes, much to discuss. 16:59:33 +1 danofsatx 16:59:47 1 danofsatx 16:59:55 +1 danofsatx 17:00:08 +1 danofsatx 17:00:34 omzim, stefw? 17:00:39 bvincent, i agree with simo and sgallagh - i think you have a great background but it seems like we already have representation along the security angle so i think danofsatx is who i am going to vote for - from my UX-centric POV i really want to see someone with long term experience in larger-scale deployments to vet the stuff we're working on, to have the perspective to udnerstand how decisions we make might affect those end users 17:00:46 danofsatx +1 17:00:51 my vote is above 17:00:58 oh, whoops 17:00:59 * omzim would love to work with you more tho bvincent 17:01:02 Who did I miss.. 17:01:18 Oh, mitr isn't here, right. 17:01:36 bvincent fades into /dev/urandom... (to emerge another day) 17:01:53 Do I have voting rights for this particular elections? 17:01:58 * danofsatx throws bvincent a pipe 17:02:00 election* 17:02:13 junland: no, but you can throw your opinion anyway 17:02:19 junland: All non-WG members have opinion rights :) 17:02:35 it's one of our failings ;) 17:02:42 sudo su +1 danofsatx 17:02:43 sgallagh: is that our first amendment ? 17:02:44 #agreed Dan Mossor (danofsatx) will join the Fedora Server Working Group as a full member (+7, 0, -0) 17:02:49 Just kidding. :) 17:02:59 danofsatx: The weakened entropy of urandom will keep me alive. 17:03:24 hmmmm....is that like "He who must not be named?" 17:03:27 OK, and we have used up the full hour (but I think it was used appropriately) 17:03:35 #topic Open Floor 17:03:40 Anything urgent for Open Floor? 17:03:49 * junland nope. 17:03:50 I have to run 17:03:52 bb 17:03:56 nothing that can't be on list 17:03:56 i have to eat! 17:04:05 and I have a network to fix, apparently 17:04:16 * tuanta has to go to bed :) 17:04:18 Finals! 17:04:19 OK, thanks folks 17:04:21 o/ 17:04:22 Be well. 17:04:24 * danofsatx really needs a new job 17:04:27 #endmeeting