19:01:59 <kushal> #startmeeting Fedora Cloud SIG
19:01:59 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jan 21 19:01:59 2015 UTC.  The chair is kushal. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:01:59 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:02:09 <kushal> #meetingname Fedora Cloud SIG
19:02:09 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_cloud_sig'
19:02:19 <kushal> #topic Roll Call
19:02:43 <oddshocks> .hellomynameis oddshocks
19:02:44 <zodbot> oddshocks: oddshocks 'David Gay' <dgay@redhat.com>
19:03:00 <roshi> .hello roshi
19:03:01 <zodbot> roshi: roshi 'Mike Ruckman' <mruckman@redhat.com>
19:03:13 <kushal> .hellomynameis kushal
19:03:14 <zodbot> kushal: kushal 'Kushal Das' <kushaldas@gmail.com>
19:04:54 <kushal> roshi, people vanished :)
19:05:34 <roshi> so it seems :)
19:05:40 * gholms appears
19:05:42 <lsm5> .hellomynameis lsm5
19:05:44 <zodbot> lsm5: lsm5 'Lokesh Mandvekar' <lsm5@redhat.com>
19:05:46 * dustymabe got held up
19:05:54 <dustymabe> .hellomynameis dustymabe
19:05:54 <zodbot> dustymabe: dustymabe 'Dusty Mabe' <dusty@dustymabe.com>
19:06:11 <kushal> #chair dustymabe oddshocks roshi lsm5 gholms
19:06:11 <zodbot> Current chairs: dustymabe gholms kushal lsm5 oddshocks roshi
19:06:33 <jzb> .hellomynameis jzb
19:06:34 <zodbot> jzb: jzb 'Joe Brockmeier' <jzb@redhat.com>
19:06:45 <kushal> #chair jzb
19:06:45 <zodbot> Current chairs: dustymabe gholms jzb kushal lsm5 oddshocks roshi
19:06:59 <scollier> hello
19:07:02 <kushal> #chair scollier
19:07:02 <zodbot> Current chairs: dustymabe gholms jzb kushal lsm5 oddshocks roshi scollier
19:07:44 <kushal> wondering if anyone else will join!!
19:07:55 <kushal> anyway
19:08:10 <kushal> #topic Action items from last meeting
19:08:17 <kushal> * jzb propose the Vagrant feature for F22
19:08:22 * jsmith is finally here
19:08:31 <kushal> #chair jsmith
19:08:31 <zodbot> Current chairs: dustymabe gholms jsmith jzb kushal lsm5 oddshocks roshi scollier
19:08:39 <dustymabe> fyi https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2015-01-14/fedora_cloud_sig.2015-01-14-19.02.log.html
19:08:51 <dustymabe> I don't know if that ever made it to the list
19:09:05 <kushal> dustymabe, nope, I missed that.
19:09:19 <kushal> Including another task :(
19:09:54 <kushal> So who all submitted feature proposals for Fedora 22?
19:10:09 <jzb> oooh, me!
19:10:26 * kushal is going discuss those links/proposals before going to tickets if everyone is okay :)
19:10:26 <lsm5> kushal: the one assigned to me (rocket) is still pending :( ...I'll get that done over this week
19:10:30 <kushal> * going to
19:10:42 <kushal> lsm5, have you submitted the proposal?
19:10:55 <lsm5> kushal: not yet ..is it too late ?
19:11:05 <kushal> lsm5, yes :( 20th was the last date.
19:11:11 <lsm5> woah
19:11:16 <jzb> kushal: does Rocket actually require a feature request?
19:11:43 <kushal> jzb, lsm5 we can just have it, but adding that as a feature proposal means we can market it better.
19:11:56 * roshi did his too
19:11:57 <kushal> In this case we will make sure that we market that well anyways :D
19:11:59 <lsm5> kushal: so should I still go ahead and file it?
19:12:02 <jzb> kushal: exactly
19:12:45 <kushal> lsm5, I guess, you can just keep working on the real technical work and update that proposal wiki as you find time. Because they will not accept any new proposal.
19:12:57 <lsm5> kushal: alright
19:13:26 <kushal> I have submitted one proposal to use tunir to test Fedora Cloud images automatically.
19:13:53 <kushal> jzb, How many proposals from you this time?
19:14:17 <kushal> I guess langdon did a proposal on vagrant, not sure though if it went in on time.
19:14:51 <roshi> I think I saw the announce
19:14:54 <jzb> kushal: two
19:15:16 <jzb> kushal: Vagrant (along with imcleod and langdon) and bare metal (with imcleod)
19:15:35 <kushal> That means at least 4 proposals from the Cloud SIG, good :)
19:15:41 <jzb> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Vagrant_Box_Atomic
19:15:54 <jzb> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Bare_Metal_Atomic
19:15:55 <kushal> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/tunir
19:16:22 <jzb> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Local_Test_Cloud
19:16:26 <jzb> that one's roshi's
19:16:36 <kushal> jzb, Thanks :)
19:16:50 <kushal> Moving on then, we can discuss more on these at the open floor.
19:16:58 <jsmith> Sounds good...
19:17:11 <kushal> https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/report/9   current meeting tickets
19:17:27 <kushal> #topic support HVM instances in EC2 (#68)
19:18:10 <kushal> oddshocks, do you know if the site has the new AMI ID(s) ?
19:19:32 <kushal> Can anyone else please confirm that on the ticket later on?
19:19:58 <dustymabe> confirm that the site has the new AMIs?
19:20:07 <oddshocks> kushal: I don't
19:20:17 <kushal> dustymabe, yes
19:20:17 <oddshocks> I sent out that email with the list, and said to contact me if I could do anything to get them on the site
19:20:20 <kushal> oddshocks, Okay
19:20:29 <oddshocks> AFAIK robyduck used to be the one to do that
19:20:32 <oddshocks> prior to F21 at least
19:20:39 <oddshocks> he's the one that asked me for them to put them on the official site
19:20:40 <jzb> oddshocks: I think we need to open a ticket with the web team?
19:20:42 <dustymabe> the site just has AMIs listed
19:20:48 <dustymabe> doesn't specify PV vs HVM
19:20:50 <oddshocks> If I get access to the site, I'm more than happy to be the one to update them from now on
19:20:56 <oddshocks> yeah those are all PV for base and HVM for atomic I bet
19:21:23 <kushal> #action oddshocks should get access to the website to update AMI ID(s)
19:21:31 <kushal> oddshocks, ^^ is that okay?
19:21:33 <oddshocks> IDK the workflow for updating the site, but I am totally happy to pick it up
19:21:36 <oddshocks> kushal: yes :)
19:21:50 <kushal> oddshocks, Thanks :)
19:21:51 <oddshocks> it'd probably make things a lot smoother since I'm usually the first person to notice new fedimg AMIs
19:21:52 <oddshocks> sure!
19:21:59 <kushal> oddshocks, hehe.
19:22:02 <jzb> oddshocks: I believe that you need to grab the site via git and send a patch
19:22:09 <oddshocks> EZ PZ
19:22:15 <jzb> oddshocks: not sure that they give access to update directly right away
19:22:25 <oddshocks> that's fine, I can send patches no prob
19:22:34 <oddshocks> I'd have someone review changes first anyway. don't wanna be breaking anything
19:22:42 <jzb> oddshocks: https://git.fedorahosted.org/git/fedora-web.git
19:22:47 * oddshocks clones
19:22:48 <jzb> oddshocks: I *believe* that's right
19:23:03 <kushal> Moving to next ticket then.
19:23:12 <kushal> #topic publicize fedora-dockerfiles #84
19:23:21 <oddshocks> jzb: hopefully you're right! Once you clone something, you can't unclone. It's the topic of many sci-fi stories
19:24:15 <kushal> Anyone any tips on #84?
19:24:51 <jzb> I've made no progress since last week
19:25:04 <kushal> Okay, moving on then.
19:25:17 <kushal> #topic Update Timezone for the docker images #91
19:25:23 <kushal> This one is stuck on me.
19:25:38 <kushal> we tested the new patch which worked, I should be able to commit it this week.
19:26:02 <kushal> #action kushal should commit the new patch for docker kickstart and update #91
19:26:41 <kushal> #topic Getting sha256sum published for the cloud images #93
19:26:48 <kushal> This is something new.
19:27:06 <kushal> The proposal actually came from systemd upstream in a mail
19:27:39 <kushal> I have talked with nirik on IRC, he has asked me to open a corresponding rel-eng ticket.
19:27:43 <dustymabe> http://mirror.pnl.gov/fedora/linux/releases/21/Cloud/Images/x86_64/
19:27:59 <dustymabe> the sums are there they just aren't *easy* to find
19:28:08 <dustymabe> from the download page
19:28:09 <kushal> dustymabe, Yeah, we release the info in a different way.
19:28:13 <nirik> kushal: note also there's an existing ticket about that same thing from the virt folks. There is apparently already a standard they use...
19:28:27 <kushal> nirik, Okay.
19:28:28 <jsmith> Standards are nice :-)
19:28:52 <kushal> nirik, I think we should ask systemd to follow that standard instead :)
19:29:14 * nirik nods.
19:29:36 <kushal> nirik, can you please paste link to that other ticket here? I have misplaced the link as it seems.
19:29:53 <nirik> I need to go find it... in a fesco meeting, will take me a few.
19:30:14 <kushal> nirik, okay, thanks
19:30:29 <kushal> Anyone wants to add something to this ticket?
19:31:10 <kushal> Moving on then.
19:31:52 <kushal> I am skipping the openshift commons ticket as it is stalled.
19:32:11 <kushal> There are two more tickets on Dockerfiles
19:32:18 <jzb> kushal: still in process
19:32:20 <kushal> Fedora Magazine Post: How to Use Dockerfiles #87
19:32:29 <jzb> kushal: I think we can remove the meeting tag from "social media" there
19:32:36 <kushal> Social Media for Dockerfiles #88
19:32:38 <kushal> jzb, Okay
19:33:07 <kushal> jzb, done.
19:33:34 <kushal> #topic Decide whether to update cloud image to not include ruby #09
19:33:37 <kushal> #topic Decide whether to update cloud image to not include ruby #90
19:33:51 <kushal> Ruby is not there anymore.
19:33:58 <kushal> Can we just close this ticket?
19:34:06 <roshi> works for me
19:34:08 <jzb> kushal: +1
19:34:13 <roshi> if it's done, just close it :)
19:34:15 <dustymabe> kushal: have the new images been pulbished?
19:34:20 <dustymabe> published?
19:34:31 <kushal> dustymabe, Nope, need to discus that in open floor.
19:34:41 <dustymabe> kushal: good :) I wanted to discuss that
19:35:39 <kushal> Closed that ticket.
19:35:47 <kushal> #topic Open floor
19:35:52 <kushal> I have two
19:36:07 <kushal> 1. We will have to release updated cloud images.
19:36:16 * langdon back if you need me about vagrant
19:36:20 <kushal> dustymabe, ^^ you wanted to say something?
19:36:33 <kushal> langdon, you can update us with the status :)
19:36:53 <dustymabe> kushal: yep I was just wondering when we were going to start doing that
19:37:01 <kushal> langdon, can you please create a ticket to the fedora-cloud track? It will be easier to keep tab then :)
19:37:02 <langdon> kushal, uh... i believe jzb wrote the change (or most of it).. not sure what is next..
19:37:07 <dustymabe> I'm working with Digital Ocean and want to make sure they keep up :)
19:37:28 <langdon> jzb, you or me?
19:37:37 <jzb> langdon: I can create the trac ticket
19:37:38 <langdon> kushal, he or i will create the ticket
19:37:45 <langdon> jzb, cool thanks
19:37:51 <jzb> kushal: just FYI - I think the bits we need are ready
19:38:03 <jzb> kushal: it's going to be a matter of imcleod syncing with rel-eng
19:38:13 <jzb> to get everything working in Koji
19:38:14 <langdon> kushal, the imagefactory parts are.. i think it is as you say jzb
19:38:44 <langdon> kushal, "someone" should also decide if there should be anything in the image besides a clone of cloud & atomic
19:38:58 <kushal> jzb, I thought we are missing the repo structure part.
19:39:11 <langdon> my suggestion would be just to clone cloud's / atomic's and wait for the bug report
19:39:14 <kushal> langdon, for 21, we had those two and docker.
19:39:27 <kushal> langdon, +1
19:39:29 <langdon> kushal, oh.. docker + cloud?
19:39:32 <langdon> so do all 3?
19:39:36 <jzb> docker?
19:39:48 <jzb> docker image? in Vagrant?
19:39:49 <kushal> langdon, docker filesystem anyway does not have much
19:39:50 * jzb is puzzled
19:39:57 <kushal> jzb, image.
19:40:14 <kushal> langdon, I would prefer to release updated cloud and atomic images.
19:40:14 * langdon opening download site :)
19:40:23 <langdon> kushal, updated?
19:40:33 <kushal> langdon, with latest packages.
19:40:37 <langdon> i assume they should be at the same cadence as isos or qcows
19:40:42 <jzb> I'm not sure we're all talking about the same thing atm.
19:40:47 <langdon> like why do something special
19:41:13 * kushal is talking about releasing updated cloud and atomic images in Fedora 21 land
19:41:36 <jzb> kushal: OK. I think Langdon and I were talking about Vagrant ;-)
19:41:48 <kushal> jzb, :)
19:42:10 * dustymabe was on kushal's wavelength
19:42:24 <jzb> yes, we should release updated images
19:42:24 <langdon> kushal, so.. i don't see a "docker" image.. just cloud and atomic (which adverts docker) here: https://getfedora.org/en/cloud/download/
19:42:27 <jzb> well, wait
19:42:31 <langdon> kushal, dustymabe im still confused :)
19:42:38 <jzb> we are releasing updates to Atomic
19:42:47 * langdon recognizes this as a normal state
19:42:49 <kushal> langdon, docker image comes from docker hub.
19:43:11 <dustymabe> jzb: yeah we are.. but I think they are talking about releasing a new "starting" point for atomic
19:43:13 <kushal> jzb, Okay
19:43:16 <langdon> kushal, ohhh.. "docker base image".. not "docker on fedora on an iso"
19:43:20 <dustymabe> on the same cadence as the fedora cloud image
19:43:24 <kushal> langdon, Yeah :)
19:43:41 <dustymabe> "starting point" == new atomic image with updates baked in
19:43:51 <kushal> dustymabe, jzb or in case if you do not want that, we can note down that too.
19:44:21 <jzb> kushal: if we want to release updated images, I don't mind, but I'm not sure it's necessary
19:44:27 <jzb> kushal: we don't release updated ISOs for instance
19:44:43 <langdon> so.. for vagrant, I wanted to release a vagrant box of fedora-cloud and fedora-atomic everytime a new iso/qcow is released.. with the same bits...
19:44:53 <kushal> jzb, yeah, but for cloud we decided that we will be releasing updated images.
19:45:11 <jzb> kushal: and, I could be wrong here, an Atomic update that brings you from F21 -> F21 current would be less bandwidth than stock F21 -> F21 Current
19:45:17 <kushal> langdon, Okay, how to create a box? can we do that from a raw file or qcow2?
19:45:31 <roshi> jzb: it was one of the features for F21 cloud product
19:45:31 <kushal> jzb, Okay.
19:45:39 <langdon> kushal, ks file -> imagefactory
19:45:44 <roshi> releasing updated cloud images throughout the release
19:46:54 <jzb> roshi: yeah, I know
19:47:20 <dustymabe> I think the question comes down to "What are the benefits of releasing updated images?"
19:47:36 <roshi> security fixes for one
19:47:37 <dustymabe> then you ask yourself: "do those benefits apply to both the cloud image and atomic?"
19:47:41 <kushal> dustymabe, I think that was discussed during F21 release :)
19:47:43 <langdon> kushal, jzb rebasing atomic: personally, i think you have to rebase the cloud images (regular and atomic) because no one yum updates/ostree update on a cloud server .. i don't think atomic is any different (in practice) for running in the cloud.. if it is running on bare metal though.. that would be an argument not to rebase...
19:47:50 <kushal> dustymabe, atomic, I am not sure.
19:48:32 <langdon> cause, as a consumer, i know x.y.z-atomic is working on the other copy of my hardware.. and i want to add a new hardware..
19:48:41 <langdon> and i can upgrade with rollbacks
19:48:44 <jzb> langdon: fair
19:49:54 <kushal> langdon, Okay.
19:49:57 <langdon> so.. my comment is.. sorta.. cloud-wg should only be doing cloud-atomic where it should be the same as cloud-normal... and server-wg should be doing server-atomic where the rebasing follows server ... just to make a mess :)
19:50:18 <jzb> langdon: wat
19:50:54 <jzb> langdon: I think that'd be more cat wrangling than is needed
19:50:55 <langdon> like... fedora-cloud is not meant to be used on bare metal.. just "in the cloud"... the problem with fedora-atomic is it can/should be used either in the cloud or on bare metal
19:51:28 <langdon> and the update process is probably different for cloud-instances vs bare metal instances
19:51:47 <dustymabe> langdon: they both use the same tree upstream right?
19:51:48 <jzb> langdon: the division is really "what's legacy server" and "what's cloud-model"
19:51:50 * langdon pretends vms are not important :)
19:51:50 <dustymabe> or is that incorrect?
19:52:01 <jzb> langdon: not so much "what runs in cloud" and "what runs on bare metal"
19:52:15 * jzb has flashbacks to a similar discussion mid-2014
19:52:35 <langdon> dustymabe, correct.. just "in the cloud" you rebuild/reinstall.. you don't rpmostree update (or whatever it is)
19:52:38 * misc point people to the latest stuff in systemd to show that cloud image may soon become container ready
19:54:06 <dustymabe> ok.. so in my opinion running atomic in the cloud (and yes I do run atomic in the cloud) you do run rpmostree upgrade
19:54:27 <dustymabe> but when I choose to rebuild my "cattle" if I could start at a newer image I would certainly choose to do that
19:54:39 <dustymabe> so there is less to update when I run rpmostree upgrade
19:55:25 <dustymabe> does that make sense?
19:55:51 <jzb> dustymabe: makes sense, but I agree with langdon that the use case should be just standing up a new image
19:55:52 <langdon> dustymabe, it does to me.. but.. if your "rebuild stuff" was fully automated, why would you bother to do updates?
19:56:18 <dustymabe> langdon: you have a good point
19:56:34 <langdon> by "fully automated" i include bringing up new servers, shifting traffic, killing old
19:56:36 <jzb> but on the third hand
19:56:52 <jzb> are we going to respin images every time there's an update or just monthly
19:56:55 <jzb> ?
19:57:07 <dustymabe> jzb: I would do it on the same cadence as the cloud image
19:57:13 <dustymabe> too much overhead otherwise
19:57:14 <roshi> the plan was monthly, I thought
19:57:26 <jzb> monthly + security, correct?
19:57:28 <kushal> roshi, that is what I understood.
19:57:32 <dustymabe> jzb: correct
19:57:38 <jzb> e.g. if a shellshocked comes in the day after a respin.
19:57:42 <dustymabe> hopefully we don't have too many heartbleeds or shellshocks
19:57:44 <langdon> propose a compromise? the main big button is always the rebased.. but there is a "history" link that gives you every one back to last major release.. or something like thta
19:58:04 <jzb> langdon: not sure we need the old images, do we/
19:58:05 <jzb> er?
19:58:18 <langdon> jzb, i think you do for the "pet" case
19:58:22 <kushal> jzb, we do actually.
19:58:39 <jsmith> langdon: Do we really need the history of *every* previous image?
19:59:05 <langdon> jsmith, maybe not.. maybe it is just current and original?
19:59:14 <langdon> you can always upgrade to a point in between
19:59:35 <kushal> langdon, jsmith we have to get an idea from the fedora-legal too.
19:59:55 <dustymabe> jsmith: langdon when you say image? is there any chance you are referring to the upstream ostree? or are you actually talking about the qcow or raw.xz?
20:00:22 <langdon> dustymabe, i mean the "qcow" (insert image format here)
20:00:34 <langdon> but you also need the ostree somewhere too
20:00:50 <jzb> hmm. I wonder if we're saving the ostree trees
20:01:17 <dustymabe> jzb: not sure but we probably should be
20:01:20 * langdon wonders if those are sustainably farmed ostrees...
20:01:52 <dustymabe> I think if we ever get to the point where ostree is as easy to use and manipulate as git.. that history would be useful
20:02:13 <dustymabe> langdon: nice
20:02:24 * langdon bows
20:02:25 <dustymabe> langdon: they are definitely cage-free
20:02:32 <langdon> dustymabe, lol
20:02:56 <dustymabe> ok so where do we stand? on the updates issue?
20:03:15 <dustymabe> same cadence as cloud image? once a month + updates?
20:03:27 <dustymabe> s/updates/security updates/
20:04:21 <kushal> For the cloud image: once a month + security fixes.
20:04:22 <jsmith> I think that sounds reasonable
20:04:31 <kushal> What about the atomic then?
20:05:34 <dustymabe> ^^ same cadence as cloud image
20:05:44 <dustymabe> I was referring to atomic
20:05:45 <roshi> I don't know enough about atomic to weigh in on this one
20:05:46 <kushal> Okay.
20:06:10 <kushal> dustymabe, can you please open a ticket for the next update release and note down this there?
20:06:17 * jzb is pulled into another meeting
20:06:18 <dustymabe> kushal: yep
20:06:25 <kushal> dustymabe, Thank you.
20:06:30 <dustymabe> we also need to talk about at what point those image updates stop
20:06:40 <dustymabe> but we can save that
20:06:43 <dustymabe> for another day
20:06:46 <kushal> I guess we can close this meeting now
20:06:55 <kushal> It is 1:36am here.
20:07:00 <dustymabe> kushal +1
20:07:10 <jsmith> +1 from me
20:07:35 <jsmith> I'm happy to help coodinate with the Fedora Security Team to decide when security updates warrant a rebuild
20:07:47 * gholms also gets dragged off
20:07:58 <kushal> jsmith, +1 :)
20:08:03 <roshi> sgtm jsmith
20:08:10 <kushal> Closing the meeting now.
20:08:15 <kushal> #endmeeting