17:00:46 #startmeeting fpc 17:00:46 Meeting started Thu Feb 19 17:00:46 2015 UTC. The chair is geppetto. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:00:46 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 17:00:46 #meetingname fpc 17:00:46 The meeting name has been set to 'fpc' 17:00:46 #topic Roll Call 17:00:52 tibbs: having fun :) 17:01:01 #chair tibbs|w 17:01:01 Current chairs: geppetto tibbs|w 17:01:01 Better day than normal, I guess. 17:01:05 :) 17:01:18 hello 17:01:23 #chair orionp 17:01:23 Current chairs: geppetto orionp tibbs|w 17:01:33 * tomspur_ is here 17:01:38 * limburgher here 17:01:45 tomspur_: You want to /nick? 17:01:49 #chair limburgher 17:01:49 Current chairs: geppetto limburgher orionp tibbs|w 17:02:31 #chair tomspur 17:02:31 Current chairs: geppetto limburgher orionp tibbs|w tomspur 17:03:25 #chair mbooth 17:03:25 Current chairs: geppetto limburgher mbooth orionp tibbs|w tomspur 17:04:19 #topic Schedule 17:04:21 https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/packaging/2015-February/010471.html 17:04:37 #topic #492 Reverse weak dependencies 17:04:43 https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/492 17:05:15 tibbs: You wanted to bring it up? 17:06:10 nevermind … I guess they answered all the questions 17:06:26 Yeah, I just dropped it out of needinfo because I think we have the info we need. 17:07:15 But I guess we actually need a draft. 17:07:31 I'm basically in favor of this as long as the tools support it reasonably. 17:07:34 I guess the end of the description is supposed to be a new section? 17:08:07 personally I fail to see why we'd want reverse weak deps. but not normal weak deps. 17:08:26 What happens if someone uses this in f22+ and backports the spec to f21 or less, will the tags just be ignored? 17:08:37 Esp. given that dnf mostly ignores the reverse ones … certainly the policy in the ticket doesn't match the description by the dnf author 17:08:46 Hmm. 17:08:56 limburgher: They'll still be there, but yum does even less with them than dnf does 17:09:09 limburgher: Well, rpm in F21 supports them, at least. But yeah, I think not much will happen. 17:09:23 Of course, you can use dnf in F21, so who knows? 17:09:25 Ok. Good to know. 17:09:55 I particularly like the reverse dependencies because it puts the work of figuring out what adds to what in the right place. 17:10:20 Otherwise you have to update the "main" package every time something comes up which "enhances" it. 17:10:39 True, but did you read the explanation 17:10:47 Because AFAICS … it'll do nothing 17:11:17 "(Suggests, Enhances) are used as package preference (for dnf's version of compare providers)" 17:11:33 As long as it's possible to display them somewhere in some way, I think they have value. 17:11:50 Even if it has no effect on package installation at all. 17:11:56 Oh, nevermind … I'm getting confused by the stupid names again 17:11:59 But Supplements will be brought in 17:12:10 yeah, the naming is .... 17:12:29 I think we're stuck with the naming; it just falls to us to explain it reasonably. 17:13:34 Yeh, so the policy is still not really correct for enhances 17:14:10 And I would, I think, like to see more explanation. I think this deserves to be split out into a separate guideline document and expanded with examples. 17:14:33 I wouldn't normally say that, but this is pretty complicated and if packagers don't get it right, fun will ensue. 17:14:41 Ok, do we want them to include normal weak deps. too? 17:15:03 I think it would be nice if they did include them so we can at least see how it is supposed to work. 17:15:20 But I'm very concerned about how forward and reverse weak deps interact with each other. 17:16:05 Good point, if one makes something default=yes and the other default=no, who wins? 17:17:11 limburgher: not sure what you mean? 17:17:28 AIUI what jsilan said, there's only one config. variable for both 17:17:49 Well, what if one package has a weak forward dependency on a package that has a strong reverse dependency? 17:17:51 A recomends B, B enhances A 17:18:24 C suggests D, D supplements C 17:18:36 Right. 17:18:37 In both cases you get both AIUI 17:18:48 Do we care? 17:18:52 I guess that makes sense, but what's the default? 17:19:18 All of them are inclusive only, AIUI … so there's nothing like WeakConflicts 17:19:32 I guess I don't really care what the behaviour is as long as it's documented. 17:19:40 :) 17:21:33 #action Create a real policy in the ticket, probably as a new page that is linked to, using the information provided by the dnf maintainer. Include examples for packagers, and how to change the dnf settings. 17:22:25 #action Also include "normal" weak deps., so we can at least make sure they both line up correctly. Although we'll probably vote on them separately. 17:22:43 That sounds good? 17:23:05 +1 17:23:06 +1 17:23:12 #topic #493 Bundling exception: python-execnet bundles python-apipkg 17:23:16 Will the dnf wording also count for packagekit? 17:23:33 tomspur: No PK is a different package manager now 17:23:35 https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/493 17:24:21 tomspur: My guess is that PK will ignore everything, but who knows 17:24:25 I think tomspur had a proposal at the bottom. 17:24:25 geppetto: I don't think we should have guidelines specific to dnf only then, such as what the default is 17:25:08 About #493: The python3-apipkg was submitted just yesterday, yet I think a temporary proposal would still be nice 17:25:36 Then we can revisit it in a few weeks again and see if unbundling worked 17:25:53 I don't really know; an exception for as long as it takes something to get reviewed and into rawhide? 17:26:00 So the proposal is to allow bundling for a couple of weeks? 17:26:22 I mean, I guess, but seems like we're spending our very limited meeting time on something pretty trivial. 17:26:26 I suggest the parties concerned help with the review or solicit assistance. 17:26:36 limburgher: +1 17:28:06 I'm confused; it's already in rawhide. 17:28:22 So they could try the unbundling now. 17:28:29 tibbs|w: as of yesterday 17:29:05 Sure. So, why don't we see how it goes and if there's still something we need to do, deal with it then. 17:29:07 I have some doubts with this wording from upstream about unbundling: https://bitbucket.org/hpk42/py/issue/31 17:29:08 ? 17:30:03 But that was a long time ago, and upstream can always do all kinds of things, and we kind of have to deal with them as they happen. 17:32:04 It was unclear when the python3-apipkg was going to be submitted, so I wanted to give the python-execnet maintainer a bit more time with a temporal exception. Maybe now just move forward and let's see if they can unbundle it now... 17:32:17 #action apipkg is in rawhide, check back if you need anything else. If we don't hear anything we'll close the ticket in a few weeks. 17:32:26 #topic #495 Proposal: Package Guidelines: PreupgradeAssistant contents packages 17:32:30 https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/495 17:33:44 So I did some cleanup, and then he filled out the draft. 17:34:01 * geppetto nods 17:35:56 The new draft looks much better, to me: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Phracek/Draft:Packaging:PreupgradeAssistant 17:35:58 I think he misunderstood the bit about shortening the macro names. 17:36:20 Stil has fedora_preupgrade_name and fedora_preupgrade_dir 17:36:54 I'm inclined not to care too much, really, but it does make for some really long lines in the spec. 17:37:33 I'd favor shortening 17:38:13 How about voting on the short version and check back, if he has an argument for leaving them as they are? 17:38:21 Why does preupgrade_build have to be told about "%{fedora_preupgrade_name}/%{name}/" -- will any package use different parameter? 17:38:53 Let me edit the draft to shorten the macros. 17:39:14 mbooth: I'd assume not … but it seems weird to specify it otherwise ?:-o 17:40:35 When a package is added to F20, one can only add preupgrade stuff from F20 to F21? Or is it possible to rebuild the update and include content for F20->F21 and F20->F22? 17:40:54 geppetto: I mean, why can't preupgrade_build macro assume "%{fedora_preupgrade_name}/%{name}/" as a sensible default unless you specify something different 17:41:01 OK, I shortened all of teh macro names. 17:41:07 I don't think we've ever officially supported upgrading more than one release at a go. 17:41:14 mbooth: yeh 17:41:27 limburgher: we never supported anything :) 17:41:42 Could further modify them to use "preupg" instead of "preupgrade". Again, not sure if I care. 17:41:50 limburgher: el only support one release at a time, but that's becauswe their releases are 3-5 years apart 17:42:06 Also in the "Build section" section you mention %{preupgrade_prep} -- is this a typo? 17:42:13 Should it be %{preupgrade_build} ? 17:42:15 And it's only recently that EL supported upgrading at all. 17:42:22 lots of people skip releases in Fedora … but, meh … it's not like it works well anyway :-o 17:43:01 I think this whole thing is a pretty good idea in any case. 17:44:20 yeh, I guess I'm +1 17:45:13 +1 17:45:27 +1 i think 17:45:30 mbooth: Ahh, I think I see now … the build argument is what you used in %prep … so it's completely arbitrary 17:45:35 Seems like we had a lot of questions, though. At least mbooth did. 17:45:56 And are these +1s after I shortened the macros? 17:46:04 Mine is 17:46:06 tibbs: yes, mine anyway 17:46:17 geppetto: Right, but in the prep section it says "Copy all contents files to %{preupgrade_name}/%{name} directory. " 17:46:27 Which is not so arbitrary 17:46:38 mbooth: Yeh, and that argument is arbitrary too … I think 17:47:57 Just seems way more verbose than it needs to be -- a lot of this boilerplate could be hidden by slightly cleverer macros, but then I am not the one implementing this is real packages 17:48:04 * mbooth shrugs 17:48:24 I'm +1, but I do see the point. 17:48:30 I mean … now is that time to ask if you want to change it 17:48:54 Well, we can always change things later. 17:49:07 True enough 17:49:15 Also, is the macro name in this section wrong? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Phracek/Draft:Packaging:PreupgradeAssistant#Build_section 17:49:23 There is no mention of it the example spec 17:49:32 I assume it is a typo 17:50:06 the _prep macro? 17:50:11 Yeah 17:50:18 Yeh, maybe he just added that recently and forgot to update the example? 17:50:44 Corrected "has to success" in that section. 17:51:02 If approved, I'll do a pass for grammar while writing this up. 17:51:08 Well, I assume typo because the section of the wiki page is "Build section" 17:51:08 * geppetto nods 17:51:18 Ahh, true 17:51:40 Yeh, I guess that's it then … tibbs can you s/prep/build/ there? 17:51:53 Sure. 17:52:50 That _prep macro does appear elsewhere in the document, though. 17:53:05 So, atm. we're at +4 with mbooth and tomspur not voting yet 17:53:27 I changed it anyway but I need to look at the actual macro definitions. 17:53:34 +1 from me also 17:53:35 Under the ini file bit … yeh, not sure what that means :-o 17:53:48 Ups delivery, back in a sec. 17:55:25 OK. 17:55:35 Is this preupgrade-assistant thing actually in the distro? 17:55:44 I thought so 17:55:44 If so, what's the srpm name? 17:56:08 Is it part of fedup? 17:56:27 I feel like it can be made a lot simpler, but I having nothing against this fundamentally, +1 17:56:55 mbooth: Could you maybe write up your suggestions? Simpler is almost always better when it comes to packaging. 17:57:20 * geppetto nods 17:57:21 tibbs|w: Sure, I will write up some suggestions 17:57:49 #action PreupgradeAssistant contents packages (+1:6, 0:0, -1:0) 17:57:49 I don't see rpm macros in the upstream github repo. 17:57:50 Why doesn't %{preupgrade_prep} need to know the buildroot of the installed files? 17:57:55 https://github.com/phracek/preupgrade-assistant 17:58:16 tomspur: Of course, I removed all references to preupgrade_prep. 17:58:55 I've realized that sometimes we have to approve a guideline that we think looks nice even if we've changed it in some way that doesn't match reality. 17:59:02 And when that happens we just fix it up. 17:59:09 * tomspur refreshes... 17:59:23 It's often better to do that than to let these things sit there blocking real packaging work from happening. 18:00:33 It is really tough for us to get it completely right when we can't see the underlying macros, though. 18:00:34 tibbs|w: Agreed -- that's fine. We iterated the java packaging guidlines over the course of a few years such that many packages need just two or three macro calls :-) 18:00:46 It takes time 18:00:49 Yes. 18:01:03 #topic #497 Clean up BuildRequires section; don't try to define the minimal build env 18:01:09 https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/497 18:01:18 Hey guys, it doesn't seem like you're yet yet, are you? We should probably move Env&Stacks meeting to fedora-meeting-2.. 18:01:46 hhorak: yeh, we might finish before 2 today … but not in the next few minutes 18:02:33 geppetto: ok, please send anybody who looks for Env&Stacks to -2 18:02:45 hhorak: ok, no problem 18:02:51 tibbs: Did you send an email? 18:03:05 tibbs: nevermind … I've found it now 18:03:08 Yes, and I got a bit of feedback (2 messages), all positive with some suggestions. 18:03:15 I thought I'd seen it, but then couldn't find it :( 18:03:33 But it came like ten minutes before that whole "unbundling is too hard and scares people off" message. 18:03:50 I need to incorporate the suggestions and post it all again. 18:04:05 But if anyone here read and has any suggestions, please let me know. 18:04:24 If some folks here wouldn't approve this kind of change regardless, it would be nice not to waste my time. 18:04:43 tibbs|w: I don't think that "RPM has the ability to function and process your spec file." like suggested in one reply 18:05:01 Sorry, I can't parse that. 18:05:02 To let rpm parse some macros, some BR are needed from time to time 18:05:16 There is a proposal at: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/packaging/2015-February/010470.html 18:05:31 Yeah, some of that is good. 18:05:35 At least I think so. 18:06:03 As for the macros, sometimes I wish that all of the package-related macros were all moved into the proper -devel packages. 18:06:10 With the wording from above. Yet to get all macros recognized one need to have the correct BR sometimes, to the sentense from above is not correct 18:06:25 So that you wouldn't even get a lot of the macros if you didn't have the proper BR. 18:06:42 tomspur: tibbs: I think you might just have differnt definitions of parse the specfile … without the packages which have the macro definitions in them rpm can still parse the specfile, it'll just get different results 18:06:54 That's true. 18:07:14 And I also wish that rpm would error out upon referencing an undefined macro, but that's a discussion for another day. 18:07:14 I'm not sure how to word that clearly 18:07:19 geppetto: Indeed. 18:07:38 Maybe define "default/always correctly parsable" macros instead of default BRs? ;) 18:08:24 I mean, it's one thing to expect rpm to be able to apply patches. It's another thing to want to call patch yourself and assume that rpm has pulled it in. 18:08:34 I think a BR: is warranted in the latter case. 18:08:59 yeh, that seems fine 18:09:03 But macros, I don't know. 18:09:36 What don't you know? 18:10:17 I think you should have to BR any package providing macros that you depend on, and I assume you agree? 18:10:25 Oh, of course. 18:11:02 I thought the issue was about macros which rpm (or redhat-rpm-config) defines but which might not be useful without additional build deps. 18:11:28 You can't assume that just because rpm defines some perl-related macro that it has brought in perl. 18:11:40 sure 18:12:38 Which does make me wonder why, say, macros.perl is in rpm-build and not, you know, perl. 18:12:45 Probably just historical. 18:13:10 So you want to tweak it and post again, and then we can look at it for next week? 18:13:17 Yes, certainly. 18:13:23 ok 18:13:26 I just didn't have a chance to do it this morning. 18:13:45 #action tibbs Tweak email with feedback and post again, will look at voting on something next week. 18:13:48 And this really isn't urgent in any case. Should probably drop it way down in the meeting priority. 18:14:00 * geppetto nods 18:14:02 #topic #498 Seeking guidance: Apps using default Python in Fedora vs. EPEL 18:14:08 https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/498 18:14:28 tibbs: I'd just gone through all of the old tickets last week, so thought we should do the newer ones this week 18:14:43 Here is an updated diff: https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ATomspur%2FUnversioned_Python_Macros&diff=404402&oldid=403797 18:15:12 (Where) should we define the current default python interpreter? 18:15:30 BTW, you can replace "404402" with "cur" there and the diff will always be up to date.... 18:15:45 For now I have it just in the explanation of __python 18:15:57 The diff seems fine, to me 18:17:36 I'm confused about toshio's last message … why would changing the macros require a new Fedora change? 18:17:56 Made one tweak: Python 2 interpreter. Also the default python interpreter -> Python 2 interpreter. Also the current default python interpreter 18:18:31 still looks fine :) 18:18:53 Although removing the "also" bit sort of makes more sense to me. But I'm picking nits, sorry. 18:18:55 tomspur: You know why toshio thinks we need a Fedora change for the macros? 18:19:11 geppetto: We need a change, when we switch to python3... 18:19:38 So when moving %{__python} == {__python2} to %{__python} == {__python3} 18:19:43 I would think that if a change in the macros means that packages will have to be fixed, then the change process gets involved. 18:19:48 Yet that is not part of this proposal 18:20:11 But if not, then I can't see why someone would need to do the change thing. 18:21:09 tomspur: Yeh, I just assumed that could be under the change the default python Fedora change. 18:22:09 It looks good to me 18:22:12 So I'm +1, if a little confused :) 18:22:37 I think toshio and me have same opinions and talk with different (confusing) wordings about exact the same thing ;) 18:22:49 :) 18:22:56 I don't think I've ever read the python guidelines from beginning to end... It's a bit of a long read :-p 18:23:19 ha … I could probably say that about most of them :) 18:23:24 mbooth: Yes, too long. 18:23:39 I have long bemoaned the terrible state of python packaging in Fedora. 18:23:44 So much macro spaghetti. 18:24:35 The contents of the diff seems sensible enough to me, so +1 to that fwiw 18:26:21 Is the part about brp-python-bytecompile using whatever __python points to still correct? 18:26:46 orionp: I assume that's a +1 18:26:51 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Tomspur/Unversioned_Python_Macros#Bytecompiling_with_the_correct_python_version 18:26:55 yes +1 18:26:59 Dito. assume tomspur and tibbs are going +1? 18:27:05 +1 from me as well. 18:27:23 limburgher: vote? 18:27:50 tibbs|w: Unfortunately yes... 18:27:55 +1 18:27:58 geppetto: +1 18:28:03 Just had to make sure that __python wasn't referenced in any of the example specs. 18:28:12 #action Apps using default Python in Fedora vs. EPEL (+1:6, 0:0, -1:0) 18:28:26 And while we're in there, does anyone know if the bit ab the end about pygtk2 and numpy is still correct? 18:28:35 #topic Open Floor 18:29:00 Wow, was that the whole meeting agenda? 18:29:01 tibbs|w: It could be made more generic, or just changed to python2 later on... 18:29:18 tibbs: No, that was all the "newer" tickets 18:29:25 And it's been 1.5 hours … so 18:29:32 435 is waiting on Rathann. 18:29:49 Zero idea about 248. 18:29:49 I have a more general question. Would it be possible to check before %build, if there is something included in the package that should get deleted? 18:29:52 https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/packaging/2015-February/010471.html … we've got 7 anchient tickets 18:30:29 We put something off last week until limburgher was here.... 18:30:36 https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/221 18:31:01 limburgher: You still care about that at all? 18:31:02 #topic #221 Bundling exception request: numptyphysics and Box2D 18:31:10 https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/221 18:31:33 Otherwise it's another ticket down. 18:31:53 We're going to be under 20 after this meeting, I think. 18:32:13 :) 18:32:22 was almost under 10 for the agenda 18:32:40 I do. . .but not the way you think. 18:33:03 numptyphysics seems not to run as of f20, and upstream seems to have vanished. So I'm going to retire it. 18:33:29 seems like a solution :) 18:33:36 I know there's a "but" in there somewhere. 18:33:54 #action retiring package, so doesn't matter. 18:34:35 tibbs|w: ? 18:34:44 #topic Open Floor 18:34:51 Anyone else have anything to bring up? 18:35:06 limburgher: I was just figuring there was something else to your statement. 18:35:14 limburgher: I think that was just his optimisim shinning through ;) 18:35:39 Is it possible to search automatically for content that should be deleted before %build? 18:35:44 I have precious little these days. 18:35:44 :) 18:36:10 tomspur: like what? 18:36:15 tomspur: Well, I think rpm does something before %build that you could hook into. 18:36:32 e.g. One must delete python eggs before building. Would it be possible to search and delete them automatically ? 18:36:42 ___build_pre 18:36:48 SO, yeah, hack on that. 18:38:49 Not a packaging guideline thing, though. But just hook in one or more shell scripts, with some rpm variable to disable them if absolutely necessary. 18:39:16 I certainly wouldn't object at all. 18:39:34 Sounds doable... 18:40:08 I'll have a look, so maybe some removing of content could be automated 18:40:27 tibbs|w: thanks 18:40:53 cool 18:40:58 I'm out. 18:41:05 Ok, anything else? 18:41:09 Well, out of stuff to say, at least. 18:41:14 If not I'll close in a minute or so :) 18:42:10 Maybe next week we can cover all that's left and be done with everything. 18:43:51 Uh hu. 18:43:52 h 18:44:56 tibbs: there's that optimism showing through again :) 18:45:04 Hey, it's possible. 18:45:21 it is, we've been lucky the last two weeks to not have any new tickets though 18:45:35 Anyway … time for some lunch 18:45:42 #endmeeting