16:00:15 <tibbs|w> #startmeeting
16:00:15 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Apr  2 16:00:15 2015 UTC.  The chair is tibbs|w. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:15 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:22 <tibbs|w> #meetingname FPC
16:00:22 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fpc'
16:00:24 <tibbs|w> #meetingtopic Packaging Committee meeting
16:00:31 <tibbs|w> Anyone around?
16:00:38 <mbooth> I am here
16:01:52 <tibbs|w> SmootherFrOgZ and spot are at least in the channel.
16:02:12 <tibbs|w> I'll wait a few.
16:03:00 <tibbs|w> Not particularly optimistic about making quorum, but at least I have an agenda ready.
16:03:27 * racor is here, too
16:03:47 * SmootherFrOgZ here
16:03:52 <tibbs|w> That's four.
16:05:16 <tibbs|w> Why did I ping spot?  geppetto pinged him last week but he's not actually on the committee.
16:05:36 <racor> ... but it's quite likely I have to leave early.
16:05:36 <tibbs|w> Should check before cut-n-paste, I guess.
16:06:12 <tibbs|w> Assuming we don't hit quorum, anyone want to at least look at the one piece of new business this week?
16:06:18 <tibbs|w> #topic #520  [Guidelines Draft] Per-Product Configuration Defaults v2
16:06:20 <tibbs|w> .fpc 520
16:06:21 <tibbs|w> https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/520
16:07:10 <tibbs|w> Argh, someone at the door.
16:07:22 <tibbs|w> Anyway, this was a mess before and it's less of a mess now.
16:07:44 <sgallagh> /me is around if there are questions
16:08:20 <tibbs|w> Diff is https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ASgallagh%2FPer-Product_Configuration_Packaging_Draft&diff=408394&oldid=408358
16:08:54 <tibbs|w> With mbooth we have 5.
16:09:13 <tibbs|w> mbooth: looking over https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/520
16:09:22 <tibbs|w> The diff is https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ASgallagh%2FPer-Product_Configuration_Packaging_Draft&diff=408394&oldid=408358
16:10:06 <tibbs|w> Personally I'm fine with this but I haven't linted it.
16:10:13 * mbooth looks
16:13:40 <tibbs|w> sgallagh: Do we expect the list of product deliverables to change often enough?
16:13:52 <tibbs|w> Well, often enough that it would be annoying to update the list in the guidelines?
16:14:07 <tibbs|w> We could just refer to an external list somewhere if one exists and it changes often.
16:14:30 <sgallagh> Adding new Products requires an Act of Council, so should be extremely rare
16:14:37 <tibbs|w> Cool.
16:14:52 <mbooth> Hmm, I have no real complaints about this
16:15:21 <tibbs|w> So basically the big change is getting rid of all of the conflicts stuff and instead just moving the right thing into place in %posttrans.
16:15:31 <sgallagh> yes
16:15:34 <tibbs|w> Which I heartily support as conflict are really annoying.
16:15:40 <sgallagh> Agreed
16:15:49 <tibbs|w> However, can that be scripted?
16:15:51 <sgallagh> And changed in subtle ways with DNF
16:16:05 <sgallagh> Not realistically no
16:16:07 <tibbs|w> As in, call out to something in %posttrans that does this, because that's a lot of code.
16:16:24 <tibbs|w> And, really, way too much code.
16:16:43 <sgallagh> Since you may be working with a subset of the Products or have multiple files that need to be munged (like Firewalld does)
16:17:13 <sgallagh> So I can't think of a way to script this that wouldn't take just about the same amount of code in arguments
16:17:56 <mbooth> I'm surprised there's no rpm macro to get the product variant
16:17:58 <sgallagh> I guess I could write a script for the trivial case...
16:18:07 <tibbs|w> I guess there aren't too many packages that would need this.  Is there a list?
16:18:16 <sgallagh> mbooth: I could write one of those, I suppose.
16:18:28 <sgallagh> It would just be doing exactly what that sed command does
16:18:29 <tibbs|w> And, yes, at least getting the variant should really be a macro.
16:18:43 <tibbs|w> You mean awk command, I guess.
16:18:51 <sgallagh> tibbs|w: As of today: firewalld
16:18:58 <tibbs|w> Heh, so just the one.
16:19:07 <sgallagh> yes
16:19:08 <tibbs|w> Basically, anything we can make simpler, we should make simpler.
16:19:24 <sgallagh> openssh-server may do this in the future as well, but that's ambiguous right now
16:19:36 <tibbs|w> I know /etc/os-release isn't going to change format, but even hardcoding that in the spec is something we should avoid.
16:19:49 <sgallagh> /me nods
16:20:27 <tibbs|w> So, I'm generally +1 but anything that can make this any cleaner would be nice.
16:20:36 <mbooth> me too
16:20:53 <tibbs|w> Also trying to remember why you need to backwhack the ! in the first line of posttrans.
16:21:12 <sgallagh> I copy-pasted that from elsewhere and just trusted it
16:21:26 <sgallagh> I forget exactly where
16:21:26 <racor> how about %ghost'ing the symlinks?
16:21:38 <tibbs|w> I don't think bash does history expansion in shell scripts.
16:21:49 <sgallagh> racor: Did I forget to write that?
16:21:55 <sgallagh> Yeah, that's necessary. Oops
16:22:00 <tibbs|w> There's no %files section at least.
16:22:15 <racor> systemd and alternative apply similar approach, and ... the result is havoc
16:22:20 <tibbs|w> I did make a couple of minor formatting tweaks.
16:22:33 <sgallagh> racor: Sorry, similar to what?
16:22:35 <racor> s/alternative/alternative/
16:23:01 <racor> They apply symlinks as configuration items and do not %ghost them
16:23:15 <tibbs|w> Ugh.
16:23:44 <tibbs|w> I didn't realize that systemd did that.  With alternatives I'm not sure there's a better way, but that's off-topic.
16:23:50 <sgallagh> racor: Yeah, that was an oversight in the proposal. The %ghost is there in the real firewalld package
16:24:25 <racor> In cases of mistakes/bugs/breakdowns you typically end up with dangling/unowned symlinks, not knowing if something is still in use or what else.
16:24:43 <tibbs|w> So, add %files section, perhaps macroize the variant bit, and revisit next week?
16:25:20 <mbooth> With a macro, being able to write "case %{product_variant} in" would eliminate 33% of your steps in "Applying Configuration" ;-)
16:25:20 <tibbs|w> With that done I'm happy to vote +1 in the ticket.  Not sure if this needs to get in urgently since it's just one package currently.  Which I'm sure has already been updated.
16:25:26 <racor> cf /etc/systemd/system/* and /etc/alternatives/*
16:25:52 <tibbs|w> And I guess maybe check whether the ! really needs the backwhack.
16:26:40 <sgallagh> Right, firewalld has already made these changes and it's working nicely.
16:28:10 <tibbs|w> So, anyone have any other comments?  sgallagh: are those things OK?
16:28:27 <tibbs|w> (I really don't want to use the phrase "action items".  Except I just did.  I feel dirty.)
16:28:27 <sgallagh> tibbs|w: Sounds reasonable to me.
16:28:47 <sgallagh> #action sgallagh to add %files section and create a macro for product variant
16:28:59 <tibbs|w> Ninja'd.
16:29:01 <sgallagh> Hmm, I'm probably not chaired
16:29:15 <tibbs|w> Oh, hell, I don't even know how to do that.
16:29:17 <tibbs|w> #action sgallagh to add %files section and create a macro for product variant
16:29:39 <sgallagh> tibbs|w: "#chair <nick>"
16:29:56 <tibbs|w> #chair mbooth
16:29:56 <zodbot> Current chairs: mbooth tibbs|w
16:29:59 <tibbs|w> #chair racor
16:29:59 <zodbot> Current chairs: mbooth racor tibbs|w
16:29:59 <Corey84> .fas corey84
16:30:00 <zodbot> Corey84: corey84 'Corey84' <sheldon.corey@gmail.com>
16:30:18 <tibbs|w> #chair SmootherFrOgZ
16:30:18 <zodbot> Current chairs: SmootherFrOgZ mbooth racor tibbs|w
16:30:19 <sgallagh> tibbs|w: "#chair <nick> [<nick>*]" actually
16:30:37 <tibbs|w> Hopefully geppetto will come back soon.
16:30:45 <sgallagh> Basically sets the people who are allowed to issue commands during the meeting
16:31:02 <tibbs|w> It doesn't acknowledge on action items anyway, I don't think.
16:31:39 <tibbs|w> So, we have a few tickets from past meetings we could look at.
16:31:52 <sgallagh> tibbs|w: No, but it also wouldn't have put it in the minutes.
16:31:58 <sgallagh> /me shuts up
16:32:23 <tibbs|w> Yeah, but I actioned it so it should be there.
16:32:47 <tibbs|w> Anyway, anyone want to look at any of the old ones?
16:32:56 <tibbs|w> mbooth, you did something with 513, I think.
16:33:03 <tibbs|w> #topic #513  Use python -Es in shbang           meeting       defect
16:33:04 <tibbs|w> .fpc 513
16:33:06 <tibbs|w> https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/513
16:33:25 <mbooth> Hmm, did I?
16:33:33 <tibbs|w> Man, I thought so.
16:33:54 <mbooth> It says "ACTION: tibbs Will work on macros to vote on next week." :-)
16:34:13 <orionp> sorry, I spaced
16:34:20 <tibbs|w> #chair orionp
16:34:21 <zodbot> Current chairs: SmootherFrOgZ mbooth orionp racor tibbs|w
16:34:31 <tibbs|w> mbooth: Sorry, I'm dumb.  It was 281.
16:34:40 <tibbs|w> #topic #281  New Python Macros for Easier Packaging
16:34:41 <tibbs|w> .fpc 281
16:34:43 <tibbs|w> https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/281
16:34:59 <tibbs|w> And it was orion.  I know someone did something.
16:36:18 * orionp the macro conditionals make my eyes bleed...
16:36:24 <tibbs|w> orionp: Your macros look reasonable to me, but I haven't tested.
16:36:33 <orionp> me neither :)
16:36:44 <tibbs|w> I guess that would be the next step.
16:37:27 <tibbs|w> And yeah, the conditionals are unpleasant, but doing it once saves a load of cruft in a big load of packages.
16:37:54 <tibbs|w> And lets us mess with the default options without having to change every package.
16:38:20 <tibbs|w> Though I suspect the first three macros should just be two macros.
16:39:14 <tibbs|w> Because I don't suspect both pythons will have the same macros for long, so I wouldn't want people getting used to setting just one of them.
16:40:30 <tibbs|w> Not really sure about the naming, but I don't really care.  And I guess I'd use %optflags instead of the yelling equivalent, but that's just me.
16:41:12 <tibbs|w> Anyway, I guess a couple of us test this and make sure we're good?
16:41:34 <mbooth> Sounds like a plan to me
16:41:38 <tibbs|w> I have a couple of my python packages I can run this through.
16:41:42 <orionp> sounds like a plan.
16:41:54 <tibbs|w> #action Test this a bit and revisit next week.
16:42:17 <tibbs|w> Anyone want to look at the other tickets?
16:42:37 <tibbs|w> I don't know what to do about scintilla; I guess someone needs to contact all of the involved maintainers and try to sort something out.
16:43:11 <tibbs|w> I don't understand bcond and the like well enough to deal with 509.
16:43:46 <tibbs|w> scintilla is https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/126, https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/509 is the bootstrapping thing.
16:44:15 <mbooth> I don't think any other tickets need immediate attention -- just all waiting on someone to do something
16:44:38 <tibbs|w> Yeah, but some of those might be waiting on us to do something.  I'm not really sure.
16:44:58 <mbooth> I may look into the bcond/bootstrapping one since I have some packages that have bootstrapping
16:45:12 <tibbs|w> Anyway, if nobody has any further input on any of the followups, I guess we're done.
16:45:21 <tibbs|w> #topic Open Floor
16:45:38 <tibbs|w> Anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss?  Anything I missed?
16:46:19 <tibbs|w> Sorry if I'm railroading, but I like short meetings.
16:46:56 <orionp> Me too :)
16:46:57 <tibbs|w> And I have a pile of work to get through today.
16:47:17 <mbooth> Me too, feel free to end and enjoy the long easter weekend
16:47:52 <tibbs|w> Yeah, if you celebrate that or just enjoy a national holiday, enjoy it.
16:48:03 <tibbs|w> I'll close in a couple of nobody has anything.
16:48:13 <tibbs|w> We're all good with the time now that the world is back in sync, right?
16:48:30 <mbooth> Should be
16:49:31 <tibbs|w> OK, folks, thanks for coming.  See everyone next week.
16:49:37 <tibbs|w> #endmeeting