16:01:45 <geppetto> #startmeeting fpc
16:01:45 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jul 23 16:01:45 2015 UTC.  The chair is geppetto. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:01:45 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:01:45 <geppetto> #meetingname fpc
16:01:45 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fpc'
16:01:45 <geppetto> #topic Roll Call
16:01:53 <tomspur> orionp: good question... I think directly in rpm
16:02:03 <orionp> morning
16:02:07 <geppetto> hey :)
16:02:11 <geppetto> #chair orionp
16:02:11 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto orionp
16:02:13 <geppetto> #chair tomspur
16:02:13 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto orionp tomspur
16:02:15 <gbcox> Good morning - Sitting in back row today
16:02:25 <tibbs|w> Howdy.
16:02:29 <geppetto> #chair tibbs
16:02:29 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto orionp tibbs tomspur
16:03:31 <geppetto> limburgher mbooth racor Rathann SmootherFr0gZ: FPC ping
16:03:41 <mbooth> Hi
16:04:02 <geppetto> Oh, hi :)
16:04:06 <geppetto> #chair mbooth
16:04:06 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto mbooth orionp tibbs tomspur
16:04:16 <geppetto> And then there were 5!
16:04:32 <orionp> tompur so the dependency is really on /usr/bin/python
16:05:18 <tomspur> orionp: Which isn't there when only python3-devel is installed, so %py_build will fail. I guess that's fine...
16:06:13 <geppetto> #topic Schedule
16:06:16 <geppetto> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/packaging/2015-July/010856.html
16:06:27 <geppetto> #topic #551 	remove duplicated text about starting services by default
16:06:27 <geppetto> .fpc 551
16:06:27 <geppetto> https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/551
16:06:29 <zodbot> geppetto: #551 (remove duplicated text about starting services by default) – fpc - https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/551
16:07:01 <geppetto> there was a lot of text here, but I think it's a trivial change
16:07:09 <tibbs|w> I had planned to just do this but haven't found the time.
16:07:42 <tibbs|w> Can maybe do it today.
16:07:50 <tibbs|w> +1 for the ticket if we're voting.
16:08:52 <mbooth> +1 Agree, seems both sensible and trivial
16:08:55 <geppetto> Yeh, if the ticket was much smaller I'd have assigned it to you
16:09:03 <geppetto> but given so much text I figured we should vote ;)
16:09:06 <geppetto> +1
16:09:08 <tomspur> +1
16:09:13 <Rathann> hi
16:09:17 <geppetto> #chair Rathann
16:09:17 <zodbot> Current chairs: Rathann geppetto mbooth orionp tibbs tomspur
16:09:19 <geppetto> hey there
16:09:48 <tibbs|w> It's turning into a party.
16:10:09 <orionp> +1
16:11:06 <geppetto> Rathann: You want to vote on 551?
16:11:15 <Rathann> yes, +1 to #551
16:11:23 <Rathann> I read it earlier
16:11:27 <geppetto> #action remove duplicated text about starting services by default (+1:6, 0:0, -1:0)
16:11:42 <geppetto> Ok, now onto the weekly python ticket ;)
16:11:43 <geppetto> #topic #552 	update python packaging guidelines
16:11:44 <geppetto> .fpc 552
16:11:44 <geppetto> https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/552
16:11:45 <zodbot> geppetto: #552 (update python packaging guidelines) – fpc - https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/552
16:12:10 <tibbs|w> More python.
16:12:36 <tibbs|w> I agree with all five of the proposals.
16:12:53 <tibbs|w> And the one at the bottom about running 2to3 as well.
16:13:28 <zbyszek> tibbs|w: point 5 was a mistake on my part (about py3dir).
16:14:02 <tibbs|w> Right.
16:14:29 <orionp> oooh, using my package as template!
16:14:41 <tibbs|w> I'm going to set aside two hours after this meeting to try and get the python guideline page completely updated.
16:15:11 <tibbs|w> Personally I am very happy with the amount of excised text in this draft.
16:15:19 <tomspur> Point 3 should be handled in some other python ticket
16:15:53 <tomspur> I'm afraid this branch of yet another diff of the current python guidelines should be rebased on top of other tickets :/
16:16:01 <tibbs|w> Yes.
16:16:06 <zbyszek> I'm ready to update the draft to incorporate whatever other python tickets are in flight.
16:16:06 <tomspur> Or is /me the only one who is confused?
16:16:10 <tibbs|w> It's my fault for not writing that stuff up.
16:16:31 <tomspur> Any my fault for opening the other tickets in the first place :)
16:16:37 <tibbs|w> And lately my free time has come at exactly the same time that there's been an outage.
16:16:49 <orionp> The explicit Provides: should be versioned
16:17:29 <tibbs|w> Which one?
16:17:41 <tibbs|w> I'm not seeing any unversioned Provides: being added in this draft.
16:17:43 <geppetto> orionp: which line?
16:18:06 <orionp> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Zbyszek/PythonPackagingDraft#Provides
16:18:22 <tibbs|w> That's not part of this draft, though.
16:18:39 <tibbs|w> That's just something which we added a while back.  But of course you're right about that.
16:18:45 <orionp> probably should have its own line
16:18:52 <tomspur> That should be replaced with a %python_provide in another diff
16:19:00 <geppetto> Yeh
16:19:04 <orionp> I'm just reading throught the thing
16:19:07 <orionp> through
16:19:11 <tomspur> yeah...
16:19:15 <geppetto> I was just looking at the diff
16:19:26 <orionp> But yes, sounds like we have lots of versions floating around?
16:19:27 <geppetto> seemed saner :-o
16:19:35 <geppetto> I think I'm +1 for everything
16:19:51 <geppetto> The only bit that worries me is if it's a bit early to remove the srpm stuff
16:19:56 <geppetto> But it probably isn't
16:22:05 <tibbs|w> We have four or (now) five tickets which I need to merge together.
16:22:33 <Rathann> it's a bit hard to see what's changed
16:22:41 <Rathann> large chunks are added and removed
16:22:45 * tomspur can incorporate this one https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/534#comment:14
16:22:55 <tomspur> tibbs|w: would that help you?
16:23:10 <tomspur> Or create more confusion and you want to merge all of them?
16:23:15 <tibbs|w> tomspur: You're always free to write those things up if you like.
16:23:23 <tibbs|w> As long as I'm not in the middle of doing it myself.
16:23:37 <tibbs|w> But like I said, I have two hours set aside immediately after this meeting to take care of this
16:23:46 <tibbs|w> so it's probably easier if I just get it all done at once.
16:23:49 <tomspur> ok
16:23:49 <geppetto> Rathann: yeh, I tried to match the points in the ticket to what changed
16:24:01 <geppetto> Rathann: And just take it step by step
16:24:36 <tibbs|w> The reason I originally didn't take it step by step was so that packagers wouldn't scramble to change their packages only to have to change them again.
16:25:10 <tomspur> Isn't that sed command always replacing the first line and not just if "python" is in them?
16:25:48 <zbyszek> Yes.
16:25:57 <tomspur> But as it is done on *.py it should be fine too
16:26:30 <geppetto> Yeh, and only if the line starts with #
16:27:11 <orionp> So I'm +1 with these changes.  Let let tibbs merge all the outstanding changes and revisit later?
16:27:25 <orionp> So we can all look at one document?
16:27:35 <tibbs|w> I'm +1 to the changes as well.
16:27:47 * geppetto nods … that's +3
16:27:48 <tibbs|w> And, yes, then we'll get one document.
16:27:59 <tomspur> +1 also
16:28:44 <mbooth> +1
16:28:52 <tibbs|w> I should have handled this differently, by making a "new guidelines" page that everyone could use as a base and then copying it into place after everyone stopped piling on the changes.
16:29:24 <geppetto> Rathann: vote?
16:30:13 <tibbs|w> I do think perfect is the enemy of good here.  We can get these changes in and then if things need better organization or other fixes then we can just do them later.
16:30:21 <Rathann> +1 from me
16:30:33 <tibbs|w> I doubt there's any way to get all of this done without ending up with at least a couple of screw ups in the end.
16:31:50 <geppetto> #action update python packaging guidelines from 552 (+1:6, 0:0, -1:0)
16:31:52 <tibbs|w> So, I know what I'm going to be doing today.
16:32:13 <geppetto> #topic #506 	Guideline Draft: Service First-Time Setup
16:32:13 <geppetto> .fpc 506
16:32:13 <geppetto> https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/506
16:32:15 <zodbot> geppetto: #506 (Guideline Draft: Service First-Time Setup) – fpc - https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/506
16:33:16 <geppetto> So sscg is now in f22
16:33:27 <geppetto> which was the main object I had last week
16:34:44 <tibbs|w> Complete diff should be https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ASgallagh%2FFirstTimeSetupDraft&diff=418371&oldid=404788
16:35:17 <tibbs|w> Uh, but that's kind of pointless because this is a completely draft, so duh.
16:35:32 <geppetto> Yeh, I thought that … was confused for a minute ;)
16:35:54 <tibbs|w> I think my objections are the same as last week.
16:36:18 <tibbs|w> Just say "use sscg".  The guideline shouldn't be a manpage for the thing.
16:36:34 <mbooth> Can't link to some online docs for sscg instead of reprinting it here?
16:36:52 <tibbs|w> I think anyone who wants to use it can just run it and get the same usage info.
16:37:00 <geppetto> So IIRC you want to remove just the section "easy implementation with sscg" ?
16:37:05 <tibbs|w> Yes.
16:37:16 <geppetto> sgallagh_afk: ping discussing first time setup draft
16:37:38 * geppetto nods … I'm still fine with just removing that section :)
16:37:39 <tibbs|w> Just incorporate a note that sscg exists and that its use is recommended, then go on to use that in the examples.
16:37:39 <orionp> Yeah, let's put that elsewhere.
16:38:07 <tibbs|w> And the "do-it-yourself" thing should be removed as well, though I of course wouldn't object to that page being elsewhere.
16:38:18 * geppetto nods
16:39:20 <tibbs|w> Let me make a quick edit.
16:42:10 <tibbs|w> Struggling with wording; sorry.
16:43:45 <tibbs|w> There.  https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ASgallagh%2FFirstTimeSetupDraft&diff=418431&oldid=418371
16:44:36 <tibbs|w> I would also elide some of the justfication from the draft, but I don't think it's worth discussing.
16:45:19 <zbyszek> There's also a typo: missing "|" from ConditionPathExists=!/etc/Pegasus/server.pem
16:45:33 <tibbs|w> Yeah, getting that stuff right is far more important.
16:46:01 <tibbs|w> I was wondering if that specific case was intentional.
16:46:10 * tomspur too
16:46:31 <zbyszek> tibbs|w: After your edit the last paragraph duplicates the one you added...
16:46:42 <tibbs|w> Yeah, it was incomplete; sorry.
16:46:43 <orionp> so now we have two locations that talk about self-signed ceritificates?
16:47:51 <orionp> In the tog-pegasus example we should change <servicename> to "tog-pegasus" or "Pegasus"
16:47:59 <tomspur> Why is the .service for creating self-signed certificate before the special case of self-signed certificate ?
16:48:16 <tibbs|w> I'm moving it around.
16:48:25 <Rathann> sorry guys I have to drop off
16:48:29 <Rathann> guests have arrived
16:48:39 <tibbs|w> Thanks for coming.
16:48:44 <tomspur> Rathann: bye
16:49:24 <tibbs|w> OK, made two more edits.
16:49:38 <tibbs|w> First one reorganizes a bit and moves the discussion all up before the examples.
16:49:49 <tibbs|w> The second fixes the typo zbyszek pointed out.
16:53:40 * tomspur doesn't know if creating a user/group and moving them to clones is "save", but I'll trust the sharp eyes of zbyszek :)
16:53:41 <tomspur> +1
16:54:26 <zbyszek> tomspur: yes, it's safe, we are fine with the account having the same number on all machines. Actually it's even preferred, if you use nfs or whatever.
16:55:23 <orionp> I think "Common Guidelines" should come before "Generating Self-Signed Certificates", or at least the generic template.
16:55:40 <geppetto> I'm +1
16:55:48 <geppetto> So that's +3, I think
16:56:08 <mbooth> Yeah, looks reasonable to me too, +1
16:57:51 <tomspur> zbyszek: I just guess that the accounts are all created in the same order
16:58:37 <tomspur> I don't know if this is a sane assumption
16:59:29 <tibbs|w> +1, but I wouldn't object to orionp's change if he wants to edit that in.
17:00:05 <tibbs|w> It's just that the most common example is going to be the use of sscg, and so it makes sense to explain that before actually using it in the examples.
17:00:18 <tibbs|w> But either way works.
17:02:50 <zbyszek> tomspur: No, we don't assume that accounts are created in a specific order. But they can be created in %post and are safe to distribute as part of the image without being recreated.
17:03:00 <geppetto> orionp: Vote?
17:03:10 <orionp> I'm +1
17:03:26 <geppetto> Ok, I think that's +5 then … anyone disagree?
17:04:22 <geppetto> tomspur: There's also systemd-users which will be moved to soon? Which should also solve user creation without %post magic.
17:04:52 <geppetto> #action Service First-Time Setup guildlines (+1:5, 0:0, -1:0)
17:05:11 <geppetto> #info Some edits were made during discussions
17:05:16 <tibbs|w> I don't know about systemd-users.
17:05:28 <tibbs|w> It was talked about a while back but then not much happened.
17:05:56 <geppetto> Yeh, but AFAIK a bunch of people still want it … so I assume it'll appear again
17:06:34 <geppetto> I think there's nothing to do here
17:06:40 <geppetto> On 508
17:06:43 <geppetto> So …
17:06:48 <geppetto> #topic Open Floor
17:07:01 <geppetto> Anyone have anything to discuss?
17:07:30 <tibbs|w> I have plenty to do so I'm just going to get to it.
17:07:41 <orionp> wfm...
17:07:50 <geppetto> Ok, I'll close in a couple of minutes then and let everyone get on with other stuff :)
17:11:19 <geppetto> #endmeeting