17:05:35 <roshi> #startmeeting Cloud WG
17:05:35 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Aug 19 17:05:35 2015 UTC.  The chair is roshi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:05:35 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:05:38 <imcleod_> langdon: Who appears to me primarily as a blujeans silhouette with pulsing sound-circle.
17:05:40 <langdon> adimania, is that LaaS? is it similar to LARP?
17:05:43 <roshi> #topic Roll Call
17:05:46 <roshi> who's around?
17:05:49 <roshi> .hello roshi
17:05:50 <zodbot> roshi: roshi 'Mike Ruckman' <mruckman@redhat.com>
17:05:55 <maxamillion> langdon: LARP like HAARP? ... >.>
17:05:56 <lalatenduM> .hello lalatendu
17:05:57 <imcleod_> .hello imcleod
17:05:57 <zodbot> lalatenduM: lalatendu 'Lalatendu Mohanty' <lmohanty@redhat.com>
17:05:59 <maxamillion> .helo maxamillion
17:05:59 <sayan> .hello sayanchowdhury
17:06:00 <adimania> .hello adimania
17:06:00 <zodbot> imcleod_: imcleod 'Ian McLeod' <imcleod@redhat.com>
17:06:03 <zodbot> sayan: sayanchowdhury 'Sayan Chowdhury' <sayan.chowdhury2012@gmail.com>
17:06:06 <zodbot> adimania: adimania 'Aditya Patawari' <adimania@gmail.com>
17:06:07 <dustymabe> .hello dustymabe
17:06:09 <maxamillion> .hello maxamillion
17:06:11 <zodbot> dustymabe: dustymabe 'Dusty Mabe' <dusty@dustymabe.com>
17:06:13 <langdon> .hello langdon
17:06:14 <zodbot> maxamillion: maxamillion 'Adam Miller' <maxamillion@gmail.com>
17:06:17 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@fishjump.com>
17:06:27 <jbrooks> .hello jasonbrooks
17:06:28 <zodbot> jbrooks: jasonbrooks 'Jason Brooks' <JBROOKS@REDHAT.COM>
17:06:35 * langdon wonders if we can kill zodbot
17:06:38 <roshi> quite the turn out today :)
17:06:41 * dustymabe goes to fishjump.com
17:06:54 <roshi> .moar pings zodbot
17:06:55 <zodbot> here zodbot, have some more pings
17:07:12 <roshi> #topic Previous meeting followup
17:07:17 * langdon wonders if the fj redirect is working..
17:07:36 <roshi> we didn't really have any action items I recall from the meeting at flock
17:07:43 <roshi> aside from the notes jzb pushed out to the list
17:07:53 <roshi> from the meeting before we have:
17:07:58 <lalatenduM> roshi: I have on epending on me :)
17:07:59 <roshi> kushal will create cloud meeting agenda page for flock and post it to the list. rtnpro to test docker-storage as mention in the cloud list
17:08:06 <rtnpro> .fas rtnpro
17:08:11 <roshi> go for it lalatenduM :)
17:08:12 <zodbot> rtnpro: rtnpro 'Ratnadeep Debnath' <rtnpro@gmail.com>
17:08:28 <roshi> kushal posted his to the list and I think I recall seeing something from rtnpro as well
17:08:58 <lalatenduM> roshi: I tried libtaskotron , but nothing more apart from that
17:09:08 * rtnpro nods
17:09:42 <roshi> lalatenduM: which bits did you try?
17:10:33 <lalatenduM> roshi: http://fpaste.org/256770/39996833/
17:10:46 <lalatenduM> roshi: I need to look in to the errro
17:12:00 <roshi> lalatenduM: link up with tflink or kparal and they can help you troubleshoot
17:12:05 <dustymabe> roshi: should we go through the items from the meeting two meetings ago?
17:12:12 <dustymabe> or two weeks ago?
17:12:18 <roshi> though, things are bit crazy on the qa-devel side of things now with the bodhi2 migration
17:12:25 <roshi> dustymabe: already did
17:12:28 <lalatenduM> roshi: yeah
17:12:41 <dustymabe> roshi: oops.. ok
17:12:46 <roshi> kushal sent out his mail and rtnpro did as well, iirc
17:12:57 <roshi> thanks lalatenduM
17:13:00 <dustymabe> ok.. the one from two weeks ago I had an item I think
17:13:07 <roshi> anything else others want to follow up on?
17:13:13 <dustymabe> https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/114
17:13:13 <roshi> http://meetbot-raw.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2015-08-05/fedora-meeting-1.2015-08-05-17.00.html
17:13:20 <roshi> for the logs of last meeting we had on IRC
17:13:23 <dustymabe> ^^ this got fixed
17:14:05 <dustymabe> also I now have some limited access to docker hub so I may be able to work on related items
17:14:10 <dustymabe> so keep that in the mind for the future
17:14:16 <roshi> awesome
17:14:52 <roshi> ok, onto the tickets
17:15:17 <roshi> #topic Missing Cockpit RPMs in Fedora Atomic 22
17:15:20 <roshi> #link https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/105
17:15:53 <roshi> jbrooks: got anything here?
17:16:46 <jbrooks> roshi, I didn't update the ticket as I said I would -- the cloud-init part works, the kickstart part I haven't worked on yet
17:16:58 <jbrooks> I *will* update the ticket now though
17:17:03 <roshi> sweet, thanks :)
17:17:03 <dustymabe> jbrooks: sounds good
17:17:16 <dustymabe> jbrooks: have we already released the information for cloud-init?
17:17:33 <dustymabe> is there a reason to keep it until we have them both or not?
17:17:41 <jbrooks> dustymabe, in what way? it's in the gist linked there
17:18:07 <jbrooks> Where should that info live "for real"
17:18:09 <dustymabe> jbrooks: I was thinking blog form or something more broadcastable/searchable
17:18:20 <dustymabe> probably on project atomic blog?
17:18:24 <jbrooks> dustymabe, I'll do a blog post, yeah
17:18:32 <roshi> cloud wiki would be good as well
17:18:43 <dustymabe> it might have some use in official documentation but I don't know
17:18:44 <jbrooks> roshi, OK
17:18:52 <dustymabe> I always get confused about where the line should be drawn
17:19:01 * roshi dreams of a day where our wiki is as complete as the Arch wiki (those peeps do some serious wiki work)
17:19:17 <dustymabe> jbrooks: you can convert to wiki format using pandoc I think
17:19:27 <jbrooks> dustymabe, cool
17:19:49 <lalatenduM> +1 for Arch wiki :)
17:20:00 <jbrooks> :)
17:20:14 <roshi> thanks jbrooks
17:20:24 <roshi> #topic systemd-networkd
17:20:30 <roshi> #link https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/14
17:21:26 <roshi> this is one of our oldest tickets
17:21:40 <dustymabe> I guess kushal isn't around
17:21:44 <roshi> as we discussed last meeting - we need to come up with a list of requirements for a network stack
17:21:51 <dustymabe> indeed
17:21:52 <maxamillion> I don't have any personal frame of reference but major hayden spoke very highly of his experience using systemd-networkd at Flock ... I might see if he'd be willing to add some notes to the ticket
17:21:53 <roshi> then we have something to compare the two against
17:22:05 <roshi> that would be great
17:22:06 <dustymabe> maxamillion: ++
17:22:17 <roshi> there's a couple of things I have concerns about
17:22:32 <dustymabe> we also might be able to take what notes are given to us and formalize it if we can get a FAD put together like we talked about
17:22:35 <roshi> 1) Testing/Documentation burden of having a different stack than the rest of Fedora
17:22:55 <maxamillion> dustymabe: +1
17:23:08 <roshi> 2) Providers that don't abstract away networking (like Digital Ocean)
17:23:32 <roshi> 3) Running a "comparison" w/o knowing what our requirements are for a networking stack
17:23:45 * roshi is in favor of a fad to handle some of this stuff, for sure :)
17:23:58 <dustymabe> roshi: so here is another concern
17:24:17 <roshi> so I think at this point we need some people who can kind of go heads down and dig into documenting the network stack, then doing the comparison
17:24:21 <dustymabe> if we are going to move to atomic as our primary focus (it has been proposed that we do so)
17:24:21 <roshi> go for it dustymabe
17:24:33 <dustymabe> and atomic has NM in it
17:24:41 <maxamillion> dustymabe: for now
17:24:44 <dustymabe> and cloud base is *less important*
17:24:58 <maxamillion> I think cloud base and atomic should share a networking stack, but that's just me
17:25:11 <adimania> maxamillion, +1
17:25:13 <dustymabe> maxamillion: in that case you would be voting against networkd?
17:25:19 <maxamillion> dustymabe: not at all
17:25:44 <maxamillion> dustymabe: but I think if the evaluation of networkd proves to be adventageous(sp?) then we should consider switching atomic to use it as well
17:25:50 <roshi> I'm a fan of having the same stack everywhere, but it's in our best interest to do a good comparison
17:26:00 <roshi> because then we can back up our decision with data
17:26:04 <dustymabe> maxamillion: the problem is we use the same tree for atomic in both cloud and bare metal
17:26:18 <maxamillion> dustymabe: we don't have to, it's just a json file
17:26:51 <dustymabe> true.. but it does simplify things to not have them be completely separate things
17:26:54 <maxamillion> dustymabe: I'm not saying we should or shouldn't diverge but that the possibility is there if there's enough motivation
17:27:05 <dustymabe> yeah. I approached walters about this in the past
17:27:06 <roshi> so who wants to work on coming up with the specifications we care about for our network stack?
17:27:24 <dustymabe> and he really wants to keep them the same for now.. maybe in the future that doesn't make sense
17:27:56 <dustymabe> roshi: well kushal would be a good candidate :)
17:28:25 <roshi> for sure - as he's the one who got networkd into an image
17:28:45 <dustymabe> I agree there needs to be more parties involved
17:28:46 <maxamillion> dustymabe: that's fair
17:29:06 <maxamillion> dustymabe: also good to know his thoughts on the matter since he's the one doing the bulk of the work
17:29:11 <roshi> who has cycles to get the draft started?
17:29:20 <roshi> a roadmap and whatnot for when kushal gets back
17:29:44 <dustymabe> maxamillion: those were his thoughts on it a few months ago - I actually thought it was a bug that the cloud base and cloud atomic images weren't using the same networking
17:30:04 <dustymabe> roshi: since I'm tasked with kinda planning the FAD then I'll bow out on this one
17:30:19 <roshi> we're to the planning phase on that?
17:30:30 <dustymabe> roshi: planning to plan ??
17:30:32 <dustymabe> :)
17:30:35 <roshi> or is this a "write a proposal and submit for review" kinda thing?
17:30:46 <dustymabe> I was going to make a ticket and draft a proposal
17:30:55 <maxamillion> dustymabe: rgr
17:30:57 <roshi> sounds good
17:31:03 <dustymabe> ticket = Fedora cloud trac ticket
17:31:04 <roshi> anyone have cycles?
17:31:25 * roshi has cycles, but isn't the most familiar with cloud providers out of the group
17:31:43 <dustymabe> if gholms were around he might have some good input
17:31:53 <roshi> for sure
17:32:00 <dustymabe> he tends to have strong opinions when we have had those discussions in the past
17:32:10 <roshi> true
17:32:21 <dustymabe> how about this. let's send an email to the list asking for volunteers to help draft the requirements
17:32:28 <roshi> maxamillion: jbrooks adimania ?
17:32:48 <maxamillion> dustymabe: +1
17:32:55 <roshi> that works, just figured if we had people here now, then we could start now
17:32:57 <jbrooks> roshi, sounds good, I need to understand more about it
17:33:07 <roshi> I think we all do :)
17:33:13 <jbrooks> I don't yet understand the benefit of any change
17:33:22 <langdon> roshi, why not strawman it then let people add .. if you have "something" it will be easier to add/change it
17:33:23 <maxamillion> if only we all had spare time ;)
17:34:03 <roshi> I wouldn't say "spare" time :p this is just a priority for me
17:34:24 <roshi> especially since it could have a project-wide impact and impacts testing considerably
17:34:45 <maxamillion> oh, it's not quite that high on my list at the moment unfortunately
17:34:52 <maxamillion> I just wish I had time for "all the things"
17:35:05 <dustymabe> maxamillion: me 2
17:35:07 <roshi> you and me both :)
17:35:34 <dustymabe> ok so we'll do email for now
17:35:37 <dustymabe> I can send that
17:35:41 <roshi> I think we could all clear our calendars for the next several years and not make it through all the stuff we want to poke at :p
17:35:44 <roshi> thanks dustymabe
17:35:55 <roshi> can you update the ticket as well?
17:36:03 <dustymabe> roshi: will do
17:36:06 <roshi> thanks
17:36:18 <roshi> #topic Care and Feeding, Fedora Dockerfiles
17:36:24 <roshi> #link https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/84
17:36:25 * maxamillion runs
17:36:46 <roshi> o/ maxamillion
17:37:02 <roshi> looks like we just need some testing of the dnf migration on all the branches
17:37:14 <roshi> Master = rawhide, in this context, right?
17:37:17 <maxamillion> dnf has an issue where it doesn't work with overlayfs
17:37:24 <maxamillion> just like yum used to
17:37:27 <roshi> ooh, fun
17:37:40 <jbrooks> That's an rpm issue, right?
17:37:52 * adimania_ got disconnected.
17:38:07 <maxamillion> jbrooks: I thought it was yum --> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1213602
17:38:18 <dustymabe> adimania: welcome back
17:38:19 <maxamillion> jbrooks: it very well could also be rpm
17:38:49 * adimania is willing to help on systemd-networkd but has almost no experience with it. So things might be slow.
17:39:10 <roshi> adimania: taking things slow tends to yield more solid results :) no worries
17:39:13 <langdon> really the problem is.. you open one read-handle, then you open a write handle, oops.. you invalidated your read-handle cause it is on a different fs (in the overlay sense)
17:39:26 <dustymabe> langdon: yep
17:39:33 <dustymabe> no longer the same fd
17:39:37 <roshi> langdon: just so I have my head on straight with this
17:39:56 <roshi> so, if you keep all rpm actions in the same step in a Dockerfile, you won't have this issue?
17:40:05 <roshi> if the handles get open/closed at the same time?
17:40:13 <roshi> since that woudl be at the same level in the fs?
17:41:36 <langdon> roshi, i am not sure.. i have experienced it myself in docker run->yum install->etc .. but i haven't played to much with it.. just heard about the issue
17:41:48 <roshi> ah
17:41:49 <langdon> and all my dockerfiles have worked..
17:41:53 <roshi> I'll have to do some digging
17:42:00 <dustymabe> roshi: I don't think that would fix it. it's purely an rpm issue I think
17:42:02 * roshi hasn't seen this in his dockerfiles
17:42:09 <dustymabe> rpm itself opens a file twice
17:42:39 <langdon> i feel like the "overlays being live" is only when the docker image is running.. not during docker image creation.. but that seems crazy to me
17:42:45 <dustymabe> and then uses the file handles interchangably (at least that is what it looks like from the original description)
17:43:03 <roshi> interesting
17:43:07 <langdon> dustymabe, yeah.. thats the "crazy" part in my line above
17:43:26 <roshi> but for this ticket, we just have to go through and test the dockerfiles we have in each branch and note errors, right?
17:43:32 * langdon thinks "meh, worked on my machine" ;)
17:43:38 <roshi> haha
17:43:59 <adimania> langdon, use docker .... oh wait! :P
17:44:06 <dustymabe> anywho. is this super related to current ticket?
17:44:27 <roshi> that's what I just asked :)
17:44:30 <roshi> but for this ticket, we just have to go through and test the dockerfiles we have in each branch and note errors, right?
17:44:58 <dustymabe> roshi: I guess. but do we assume which storage backend is being used?
17:45:21 <dustymabe> I think we should care less about that for these example dockerfiles
17:46:20 <roshi> aren't dockerfiles just examples to work from?
17:46:51 <dustymabe> yeah. I guess what we were discussing is if the bug is in 'dnf' then we shouldn't move to it
17:47:16 <dustymabe> looks like the bug is in rpm itself though
17:48:03 <roshi> aiui, nothing more for this ticket though, right?
17:48:10 <dustymabe> so.. I say move to dnf and test
17:48:17 <dustymabe> if it works it works and move on
17:48:32 <roshi> wfm
17:48:42 <roshi> #topic Flyer text
17:48:48 <roshi> #link https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/108
17:49:01 <roshi> still waiting on number80 for this one
17:49:10 <roshi> moving on...
17:49:14 <dustymabe> roshi: one sec
17:49:17 <roshi> kk
17:49:21 <dustymabe> was this for Flock?
17:49:25 <dustymabe> which has passed?
17:49:48 <roshi> I think this is for anything we pass out flyers for during the year
17:49:52 <dustymabe> ahh ok
17:49:55 <dustymabe> sounds good
17:50:00 <dustymabe> just looked through ticket and I agree
17:50:38 <roshi> #topic Updated Cloud/Atomic images
17:50:45 <roshi> #link https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/94
17:50:54 <roshi> waiting for more input from kushal on this one
17:51:10 <roshi> on this note - I'm going to be working on getting local cloud builds working reliably
17:51:27 <roshi> try to suss out what the requirements are and help kushal with docs for it
17:51:46 <roshi> for QA, we spin custom lives often, and I want to be able to do that with cloud
17:52:31 <adimania> I was looking at automating certain tests. I think kushal already has some tests done.
17:52:37 <roshi> it's also be good to have more people up to speed witht he release process for this to reduce the bus factor
17:52:51 <roshi> adimania: our testing needs a lot of work
17:53:10 <roshi> I'm attempting to port the centos tests to fedora so we can run those in taskotron once it's ready
17:53:26 <adimania> yes and it would be needed for the bi-weekly release.
17:53:29 <roshi> taskotron could always use more devs and pull requests if you have interest and cycles
17:53:32 <roshi> for sure
17:55:28 <roshi> ok, we're about out of time
17:55:40 <roshi> open floor for now - then update tickets on your own time?
17:55:49 <roshi> discussion to be ongoing in fedora-cloud?
17:55:54 <dustymabe> ok any more items?
17:55:58 <roshi> 3 more
17:56:27 <roshi> 32 bit image (mostly decided), PRD Discussion (not needed anymore?) and Shipping with firewall on by default
17:56:36 <lalatenduM> Fedora Vagrant images in atlas.hashicorp https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/cloud/2015-July/005619.html
17:56:57 <roshi> #topic Open Floor
17:56:59 <lalatenduM> Is Fedora cloud SIG is rightforum for this
17:57:23 <dustymabe> lalatenduM: I think so
17:57:31 <dustymabe> I'm +1 for having our images in the index
17:57:43 <jbrooks> +1
17:57:55 <dustymabe> the question is what image? would we only put the virtualbox image in there?
17:58:07 <jbrooks> No, libvirt, too
17:58:10 <dustymabe> or is the client smart enough to know
17:58:15 <dustymabe> and pull down the right image?
17:58:15 <lalatenduM> I think both libvirt and virtualbox
17:58:22 <jbrooks> Yeah, it's smart enough
17:58:24 <lalatenduM> +1 jbrooks
17:58:27 <jbrooks> It works w/ centos
17:58:39 <dustymabe> yeah. in that case what are the next steps there.
17:58:45 <roshi> who's testing the vagrant image?
17:58:47 <dustymabe> do you want someone from the working group to maintain that
17:59:14 <jbrooks> Maybe connect w/ the person from centos who got theirs in place? lalatenduM, do you know who that is?
17:59:19 <lalatenduM> dustymabe: yeah that would be god
17:59:22 <lalatenduM> good*
17:59:42 <lalatenduM> jbrooks: for CentOS KB puts it
17:59:54 <lalatenduM> and for Adb I maintains it
18:00:03 <dustymabe> lalatenduM: I'll create a ticket for it
18:00:11 <lalatenduM> ADb is Atomic developer bundle
18:00:20 <dustymabe> I should be able to look into managing it
18:00:32 * jbrooks has become a big fan of vagrant since it's been avail in fedora
18:00:38 <lalatenduM> dustymabe: I can co-maintain it with you
18:00:42 <langdon> jbrooks, +1
18:00:43 * maxamillion wants vagrant to die a firey death
18:00:45 <dustymabe> langdon: thanks
18:00:49 <dustymabe> maxamillion: :)
18:01:02 * langdon still wants all the other WGs to support it to
18:01:03 <maxamillion> no really, can't stand it, I'm waiting for the fad to die
18:01:07 <jbrooks> maxamillion, heh, I felt that way, until I started using it :)
18:01:16 <maxamillion> jbrooks: I did use it, for about 6 months, still hate it
18:01:19 <langdon> maxamillion, what do you have actually against it?
18:01:32 <langdon> or what is the better alternative?
18:02:10 * langdon endmeeting probably worthwhile before a pro/con on vagrant
18:02:15 <dustymabe> maxamillion: I didn't like the idea of it at first.. but I think it serves a purpose (esp for developer focused people)
18:02:16 <langdon> *says
18:02:21 <maxamillion> langdon: it's a long story, it's a combination of everything that is wrong with the rubygems community bundled up with an upstream that doesn't care about source distribution in a consumable fashion but instead wants to ship a giant vendored blob
18:02:56 <dustymabe> roshi: ^^ want to do endmeeting?
18:02:56 <jbrooks> I've only gotten into it since it's been in rpms
18:02:59 * lalatenduM will keep quite abt Vagrant :)
18:03:04 <langdon> maxamillion, the latter is somewhat reflective of all isvs today.. and is what we are trying to resolve with the fed-mod stuff ;)
18:03:08 <jbrooks> but this sort of thing is EPIC: https://github.com/kubernetes/contrib/tree/master/ansible/vagrant
18:03:18 <maxamillion> jbrooks: I tried to get it into rpms and gave up after needing an adjustment in blood pressure meds
18:03:24 <roshi> sure thing, was letting the convo finish as I was curious :p
18:03:33 <jbrooks> maxamillion, It's packaged now! ;)
18:03:34 <maxamillion> langdon: fed-mod?
18:03:46 <roshi> thanks for coming folks!
18:03:50 <roshi> #endmeeting