15:02:06 <sgallagh> #startmeeting Server SIG Weekly Meeting (2015-08-25)
15:02:06 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Aug 25 15:02:06 2015 UTC.  The chair is sgallagh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:02:06 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:02:06 <sgallagh> #meetingname ServerSIG
15:02:06 <sgallagh> #chair sgallagh mizmo nirik stefw adamw simo tuanta mitr danofsatx
15:02:06 <sgallagh> #topic roll call
15:02:06 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'serversig'
15:02:06 <zodbot> Current chairs: adamw danofsatx mitr mizmo nirik sgallagh simo stefw tuanta
15:02:13 <adamw> .hello adamwill
15:02:14 <zodbot> adamw: adamwill 'Adam Williamson' <awilliam@redhat.com>
15:02:32 <nirik> .hello kevin
15:02:33 <zodbot> nirik: kevin 'Kevin Fenzi' <kevin@scrye.com>
15:02:54 <sgallagh> .hello sgallagh
15:02:55 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
15:03:09 <mizmo> .hello duffy
15:03:10 <zodbot> mizmo: duffy 'Máirín Duffy' <fedora@linuxgrrl.com>
15:03:39 <stefw> .hello stefw
15:03:40 <zodbot> stefw: stefw 'Stef Walter' <stefw@redhat.com>
15:05:06 <sgallagh> OK, looks like we have enough to start
15:05:09 <sgallagh> #topic Agenda
15:05:22 <sgallagh> #info Agenda Item: Timeless Flyer
15:05:25 <sgallagh> Other topics?
15:06:51 <sgallagh> Looks like that's a "no"
15:07:04 <sgallagh> #topic Timeless Flyer
15:07:29 <sgallagh> OK, so Fedora Marketing would like us to chime in on a "timeless" flyer (meaning one that isn't expected to be updated with each Fedora release.
15:07:30 * linux-modder coming late
15:07:35 <sgallagh> welcome linux-modder
15:07:47 <mizmo> well it can be updated sometimes, but hopefully not every release :)
15:07:48 <danofsatx> I'm here
15:07:51 <mizmo> kind of like the website
15:07:56 <sgallagh> Right
15:08:01 <mizmo> the text they'd start with is what's currently on https://getfedora.org/server/
15:08:22 <linux-modder> how many  releases would be  semi  static tho?
15:08:23 <sgallagh> Some of that needs updating, actually.
15:08:38 <danofsatx> .hello dmossor
15:08:39 <zodbot> danofsatx: dmossor 'Dan Mossor' <danofsatx@gmail.com>
15:08:50 <sgallagh> For example, OpenLMI is on life-support upstream. No active development means its not a great thing to be advertising.
15:08:50 <mizmo> sgallagh, lets go thru it
15:09:01 <mizmo> okay
15:10:00 <sgallagh> mizmo: Please feel free to lead the discussion. You're the expert here :)
15:10:15 <mizmo> #info drop OpenLMI from getfedora.org/server; upstream on life-support
15:10:24 <linux-modder> maybe a  few more pointers for  rolekit ( targeting new users)
15:10:46 <mizmo> we should have something to replace openlmi with
15:10:49 <mizmo> but i dont know what
15:10:55 <sgallagh> linux-modder: I actually think the opposite. From a marketing perspective we should talk about the technology less and the use-cases more
15:11:33 <linux-modder> meant more like  which roles
15:11:34 <sgallagh> mizmo: PostgreSQL database?
15:11:42 <danofsatx> yeah... I was asked multiple times this past weekend just what issue rolekit was aimed at solving. These folks had just left a config mgmt talk given by either chef, saltstack, or RH on foreman.
15:12:07 <mizmo> sgallagh, is that a supported role now?
15:12:13 <sgallagh> mizmo: Has been since F22
15:12:18 <mizmo> okay cool
15:12:46 <mizmo> so if i deploy the postgresql role, what kinds of setup does it do for me? what does it not do for me? what should i expect
15:13:08 <mizmo> #info add PostgreSQL database role to getfedora.org/server
15:13:20 <sgallagh> mizmo: It creates a database and sets up an administrative user for it.
15:13:31 <sgallagh> And opens up the appropriate networking for remote access
15:14:30 <mizmo> are there any caveats to using it?
15:14:42 <sgallagh> mizmo: Please specify "it"
15:14:50 <mizmo> sgallagh, the postgresql role
15:15:14 <sgallagh> mizmo: Caveats to PostgreSQL or caveats to PostgreSQL as configured by rolekit?
15:15:21 <mizmo> sgallagh, as configured by rolekit
15:15:37 <sgallagh> It does a pretty default setup from the RPMs
15:15:49 <mizmo> what i'm getting at is trying to gather some information to throw out a draft statement about postgresql support for the webpage / flyer
15:15:52 <mizmo> since i know jack about it
15:15:54 <sgallagh> The only real change it makes is that the RPMs assume only local access, so rolekit makes it available remotely
15:16:33 <mizmo> is there anything generally awesomer about postgresql compared to other dbs
15:18:03 <sgallagh> That's a tough question to answer. It has advantages and disadvantages, but when we selected it, it had a healthier upstream community than the major competition, MariaDB.
15:18:16 <mizmo> is mariadb the 'oracle bought mysql so we're forking' db?
15:18:19 <sgallagh> Yes
15:18:35 <mizmo> so i wonder if this is really a compelling feature to highlight
15:18:59 <mizmo> does the role configure any kind of web based admin gui for it?
15:19:10 <sgallagh> Well, it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy (hopefully). We assert that this is the "official" DB of Fedora, thus helping make it the de-facto choice.
15:19:30 <danofsatx> no, that was the one glaring feature that is lacking from all dbs
15:19:37 <sgallagh> mizmo: It does not. This was an option, but the only web-based GUI currently available for it sucks.
15:19:46 <danofsatx> the web ui, that is
15:19:50 <mizmo> back when i did shit with dbs i used some php based mysql admin panel
15:20:09 <sgallagh> It does however have a very good fat client for Workstation
15:20:14 <danofsatx> phpmyadmin. there was a reason we didn't include it, but I don't recall that reason.
15:20:20 <jsmith> Yes, phppgadmin is a PostgreSQL equivalent for phpmyadmin
15:20:27 <sgallagh> mizmo: Yeah, there was essentially a half-assed port of phpmysqladmin for it
15:20:28 <nirik> it's swiss cheese for security issues. ;(
15:20:31 <mizmo> its probably holier than a first pew goer in church in terms of security
15:20:35 <mizmo> oh yes better analogy
15:20:36 <mizmo> lol
15:20:44 <nirik> :)
15:21:00 <mizmo> but damned useful for getting a nice visualization of all the tables you have
15:21:22 * jsmith still prefers pgadmin3 (desktop client)
15:21:29 <mizmo> i guess i'm worried we're going to be advertising fedora server as, "it has postgresql!"
15:21:38 <mizmo> and the person reading this thinking, "so what?"
15:21:52 <sgallagh> mizmo: I forgot to follow up on it, but I was planning to finish up the AppStream data for the fat client and try to get it promoted by Workstation
15:22:00 <sgallagh> That helps our "we're one big family" story too
15:22:12 <sgallagh> mizmo: Well, I'd advertise it differently.
15:22:30 <mizmo> #info postgresql has no decent web admin panel but has pgadmin3 fat client which is good, needs appstream data + promotion in workstation
15:22:34 <mizmo> sgallagh, how would you advertise it
15:22:35 <sgallagh> "Fedora Server brings with it an enterprise-class, scalable database server powered by the open-source PostgreSQL project"
15:22:52 <danofsatx> ooo, shiny ;)
15:23:06 <linux-modder> nice
15:23:09 <mizmo> sounds good to me, what would the headline be, "Database support" ?
15:23:29 <linux-modder> Might have to have you  help with some pithc slogans  later sgallagh
15:23:30 <sgallagh> "First-class Database Services"
15:23:31 <linux-modder> :)
15:23:45 <mizmo> hmm
15:23:47 <sgallagh> linux-modder: If there's one thing I'm good at, it's pithy slogans ;-)
15:23:55 <mizmo> i dont think first-class works as a headline lead tho
15:24:08 <sgallagh> Fair
15:24:15 <mizmo> esp on the authenticity front if we're all kinda 'meh' about how its actually awesome
15:24:29 <linux-modder> after the  mtg  mind taking a  look at my  startup venture on github for some such slogans
15:24:38 <sgallagh> mizmo: Well, it's definitely awesome.
15:24:58 <sgallagh> We just had to pick between two awesome options.
15:25:05 <mizmo> but compared to other db's... yeh exactly
15:25:20 <mizmo> "Database Services" headline?
15:25:23 <sgallagh> Sure
15:25:41 <mizmo> #info for postgresql: "Database Services / Fedora Server brings with it an enterprise-class, scalable database server powered by the open-source PostgreSQL project"
15:25:44 <nirik> Easy Database server deployment?
15:25:49 * nirik is bad at marketing. ;)
15:25:52 <sgallagh> mizmo: It's easy to extol its virtues in a vacuum.
15:26:16 <mizmo> okay anything else on here glaringly wrong or deficient? https://getfedora.org/server/
15:26:33 <sgallagh> It has basically all of the features of any commercial database server, with none of the drawbacks (particularly price)
15:26:35 * danofsatx doublechecks
15:27:14 <sgallagh> I kind of wonder where that "Docker Role" quote came from, since we don't have one of those.
15:27:33 <mizmo> came from one of these meetings or from the server list
15:27:37 <adamw> quotes about docker just materialize out of the ether.
15:27:40 <sgallagh> We ship with Docker enabled by default, but not a "Role"
15:27:45 * mizmo puts in the page what she's told
15:27:49 <adamw> maybe we were talking about docker roles as a category (roles that deploy docker containers)
15:28:02 <mizmo> #info docker isn't a role, so remove reference to docker role in quote
15:28:15 <danofsatx> or the docker functionality ingrained in cockpit
15:28:28 <danofsatx> junland isn't around to defend his honour, though....
15:28:39 <sgallagh> danofsatx: That's probably what it was: the cockpit support
15:29:19 <sgallagh> mizmo: Since that's a quote, we probably need a new quote to replace it.
15:29:26 <sgallagh> Can't be putting words in peoples' mouths
15:29:31 <mizmo> sgallagh, is there a particular way you'd reword the quote and we can run it by junland for an okay?
15:30:08 <sgallagh> "Bringing up Docker containers in Fedora Server was simple and fast to install using Cockpit. This makes a great testbed..."
15:30:12 <danofsatx> "The Docker functionality included with the Cockpit manager was simple...."
15:30:24 <danofsatx> I like sgallagh's better
15:30:37 <mizmo> #info contact junland for quote revision: ""Bringing up Docker containers in Fedora Server was simple and fast to install using Cockpit. This makes a great testbed..."
15:30:43 * danofsatx isn't too creative
15:30:44 <mizmo> okay anything else problematic?
15:30:46 <mizmo> anything missing?
15:31:02 <danofsatx> are we replacing openLMI with database?
15:31:07 <mizmo> yep
15:31:35 <danofsatx> because, technically, the database server is another role, and should be under rolekit with FreeIPA
15:31:36 <sgallagh> I think we might want to expand on the FreeIPA section as well.
15:31:48 <mizmo> danofsatx, they're not actually stacked like that tho
15:31:58 <mizmo> danofsatx, it's more about the usecase than that it's a role if that makes sense
15:32:15 <mizmo> (i mean, i guess they could be, but that isn't the intention behind how it's set up now)
15:32:41 <danofsatx> yeah, I get that...but I was seeing it as the rolekit and openlmi blurbs were on equal but separate footing, and the FreeIPA and Database are roles provided through rolekit
15:32:46 <sgallagh> mizmo: I'd change that section to be "Complete Enterprise Domain Solution" powered by FreeIPA and note that it handles identities, DNS, Certificate services and integration with Windows Domains.
15:33:38 <sgallagh> mizmo: Can we also drop "and Rolekit" from the section header about them? Let's keep the underlying tech out of the headers as a general policy.
15:33:52 <mizmo> sgallagh, "Complete Enterprise Domain Solution / Level up your Linux network with advanced identity management powered by FreeIPA. Manage users, systems, policy, identities, DNS, certificate services, and integration with Windows Domains throughout your environment with FreeIPA, the engine that drives Fedora Server's Domain Controller role.
15:33:54 <mizmo> ???
15:34:01 <mizmo> kind of a breathless serial comma run there
15:34:19 <sgallagh> mizmo: Needs wordsmithing, yeah.
15:34:46 <mizmo> can we take care of tha tnow?
15:34:52 <sgallagh> mizmo: Working on it, please hold :)
15:34:55 <mizmo> kk
15:35:17 * danofsatx whitsles while he waits
15:35:23 <danofsatx> whistles, even....
15:35:38 <mizmo> sgallagh, re dropping rolekit, do you also want to drop the last sentence "Deploy and manage these prepared roles simply using the Rolekit tool."
15:35:43 <sgallagh> = Complete Enterprise Domain Solution =
15:35:43 <sgallagh> Level up your Linux network with advanced identity management, DNS, certificate services, Windows(TM) domain integration throughout your environment with FreeIPA, the engine that drives Fedora Server's Domain Controller role.
15:36:04 <mizmo> #info update freeipa infos: "Complete Enterprise Domain Solution / Level up your Linux network with advanced identity management, DNS, certificate services, Windows(TM) domain integration throughout your environment with FreeIPA, the engine that drives Fedora Server's Domain Controller role."
15:36:07 <sgallagh> mizmo: No, I think it's okay for the *content* to reference the tech, but the section headers should be about the use-case. Does that make sense?
15:36:14 <mizmo> sgallagh, sure
15:36:30 <mizmo> #info remove "rolekit" from roles header, but leave rolekit reference in paragraph intact
15:36:32 <sgallagh> mizmo: Sorry, that last comma in the freeipa bit should have been "and"
15:36:53 <sgallagh> I'd also change the Cockpit header to be "Easy Administration"
15:37:09 <mizmo> sgallagh, you mean ", and Windows(TM)" ?
15:37:24 <sgallagh> With or without the Oxford Comma, yes :)
15:37:39 <mizmo> it needs a comma, otherwise pandas shoot people and leave
15:37:57 <sgallagh> I'm familiar with the book ;-)
15:37:58 <mizmo> #info change Cockpit header to read "Easy Administration"
15:38:17 <mizmo> pandas would never do that. non oxford commas are libel against pandas
15:38:22 <sgallagh> mizmo: I might s/easily/simply/ in the text below that, just to avoid repetition of "easy"
15:38:49 <mizmo> #info in cockpit paragraph, s/easily/simply
15:39:04 <mizmo> okay
15:39:09 <mizmo> anything else on the webpage needing addressing?
15:39:26 <sgallagh> I don't think there's anything else on that page :)
15:39:30 <mizmo> okay
15:39:34 <mizmo> now for the flyer
15:39:39 <sgallagh> One quote from danofsatx that we haven't seen fit to change
15:39:49 <mizmo> its a good one :)
15:40:16 <mizmo> the flyer could be a one page or a trifold
15:40:20 <mizmo> im not sure what the intention is
15:40:30 <danofsatx> it's still true - I'm currently fighting a CentOS7.1 installation. F22 "Just works".
15:40:36 <mizmo> but i think the basics we want are
15:40:41 <sgallagh> mizmo: By "could be" do you mean it's not yet decided and they want our input?
15:40:48 <mizmo> sgallagh, sure
15:40:50 <sgallagh> Or not yet decided and they'll get back to us on which it is?
15:40:53 <mizmo> what do you think, any preference?
15:41:06 <mizmo> we had trifolds for the design stuff and they have been very, very popular
15:41:09 <mizmo> but they are more expensive to print
15:41:28 <sgallagh> The problem with trifolds is that we need six columns of content
15:41:34 <sgallagh> (Three columns on each side)
15:41:35 <danofsatx> I was commenting this past weekend that we need vertical banners that are essentially print outs of the getfedora.org site for conferences.
15:41:56 <danofsatx> but that's a discussion for the Ambassadors meeting, not this one...
15:41:57 <mizmo> sgallagh, well it's more like 4 - the front is the splashysplash, the back is the 'learn more'
15:42:11 <mizmo> let's discuss it this way -
15:42:14 <mizmo> you're at a fedora booth
15:42:24 <mizmo> and someone comes up to you, "I heard about this Fedora Server thing. What is it?"
15:42:29 <mizmo> how do you formulate your reply?
15:42:42 <sgallagh> I usually start with "It's the best thing since Fedora!" ;-)
15:42:48 <danofsatx> I was asked almost that exact question on Saturday.
15:43:03 <mizmo> our line on the web page id
15:43:04 <mizmo> "Fedora Server is a powerful, flexible operating system that includes the best and latest datacenter technologies. It puts you in control of all your infrastructure and services."
15:43:11 <mizmo> to which me, the booth goer, would ask -
15:43:18 <mizmo> 1) what datacenter technologies?
15:43:24 <mizmo> 2) how does it put me in control of infra/services?
15:43:36 <mizmo> i would also ask
15:43:44 <mizmo> 3) why would i use this instead of centos? rhel?
15:44:11 <mizmo> so i guess for 1) data center technologies our lines are -
15:44:17 <mizmo> -- freeipa
15:44:19 <mizmo> -- postgresql
15:44:26 <mizmo> for 2) how does it put me in control
15:44:29 <mizmo> -- server roles
15:44:30 <mizmo> -- cockpit
15:44:42 <mizmo> for 3) why not use centos/rhel
15:45:02 <mizmo> the answer is more (well from my understanding please feel free to correct)
15:45:42 <mizmo> fedora server is a non-commercially supported OS where you can test upcoming server technologies before they hit commercially-supported enterprise OSes.
15:46:09 <danofsatx> I framed it as the "Technology Preview" for RHEL and CentOS.
15:46:27 <sgallagh> I usually phrase it more as "RHEL and CentOS have long-term guarantees that are their stock in trade. But when you absolutely need the latest features, Fedora is the choice for you"
15:46:28 <mizmo> ah yeah, 'technology preview' is a term i think we wanna use
15:46:43 <sgallagh> I avoid using that term like the plague, honestly.
15:46:52 <mizmo> how come?
15:46:52 <sgallagh> Because it carries with it an implied instability
15:46:54 <jsmith> Me too...
15:47:14 <jsmith> It makes people think it's only good for beta-testing RHEL/CentOS
15:47:24 <jsmith> It also minimizes the importance of the community around Fedora
15:47:44 <adamw> sgallagh: that sounds a bit like you should only use fedora if you're forced to, though.
15:47:50 <sgallagh> Fedora Server is about getting the latest *stable* technologies into users' hands as fast as possible.
15:48:02 <mizmo> but i dont think you *should* be using fedora server for mission critical stuff since there is no support path
15:48:11 <mizmo> so is it really wrong to give it the flavor of being beta testing
15:48:13 <jsmith> Who said it was for mission critical stuff?
15:48:32 <danofsatx> ...but then follow that with the 13 month life cycle. That's what bothered the folks I was talking to.
15:48:35 <jsmith> There are lots of non-mission-critical things that Fedora Server are great for, that don't require commercial support
15:48:37 <adamw> i think it sounds better as a kind of weighing up of equal alternatives: "if you want a configuration that will need little management for a long time use RHEL/CentOS, if you want to work with newer technologies faster use Fedora"
15:48:39 <sgallagh> I wish SEJeff was around. He'd love to tell you all about how Fedora Server is being used on Wall Street.
15:48:42 <sgallagh> (Not a joke)
15:48:46 <mizmo> jsmith, who said it WASNT for mission critical stuff? (i dont get the impression thats a bad idea from the materials so far)
15:49:08 <sgallagh> adamw: Sure, that's a good tone to set
15:49:21 <danofsatx> it's fine for mission critical stuff. short life cycle, but mission critical is fine.
15:49:34 <mizmo> danofsatx, except if things go wrong theres no escalation path?
15:49:36 <adamw> mizmo: i think jsmith's using the real original 'mission critical' definition there, i.e. 'don't run fedora on your sole LDAP box for your 150,000 person company' or whatever
15:50:00 <adamw> (unless you're totally fine with no guarantee of support if it falls over.)
15:50:04 <mizmo> i just dont want to set a bear trap
15:50:25 <sgallagh> I know of plenty of folks using Fedora Server on mission-critical stuff because we have the latest kernel features long before RHEL does
15:50:38 <sgallagh> s/mission-critical/business-critical/
15:50:39 <mizmo> but what happens when something goes wrong?
15:50:48 <jsmith> mizmo: Self-support and community support
15:51:06 <mizmo> something going wrong == "oh shit, i have no clue how to fix this" so self-support not really an option
15:51:06 <sgallagh> Right, the people doing this are long-term Linux gurus with a lot of knowledge.
15:51:24 <mizmo> so we should state that, SOMEWHERE
15:51:30 <sgallagh> mizmo: Oh, absolutely.
15:51:32 <mizmo> or put language here to make it clear it's for gurus
15:51:42 <sgallagh> Well, it's not exclusively for gurus.
15:51:53 <sgallagh> Else we wouldn't be investing in Cockpit and rolekit
15:52:05 <mizmo> no even gurus benefit from nice UI
15:52:09 <sgallagh> And for a marketing flyer, I'd not want to warn people off
15:52:19 <sgallagh> mizmo: Sure, but not as much as novices
15:52:37 <mizmo> theres a tension here between warning people off and misleading people into thinking this is some new product they can use the way they use rhel/centos
15:52:49 <sgallagh> I think we can strike a balance there, though
15:52:52 <mizmo> sgallagh, id argue that too but its not helpful at this point
15:52:57 <mizmo> (not as much as novices)
15:53:11 <mizmo> okay so the problem we're trying to solve here
15:53:15 <mizmo> person picks up flyer wants to know
15:53:22 <mizmo> "Why would I run Fedora Server instead of CentOS or RHEL?"
15:53:33 <mizmo> we need to figure out what exactly to tell them, without overselling, without misleading, without scaring away
15:53:38 <sgallagh> Yes
15:53:51 <sgallagh> And that's a hard question to answer. Lots of nuance.
15:54:42 <mizmo> "Fedora Server is a short-lifecycle server operating system that enables experienced system administrators to make use of the very latest server-based technologies available in the open source community."
15:54:45 <sgallagh> I'd prefer that the marketing flyer point out our advantages and that our marketing *people* be trained to cover the support question
15:55:05 <mizmo> unfortunately i think relying on training is not a good strategy
15:55:14 <mizmo> i cant even get people to use the fedora logo right 10 years later
15:55:21 <sgallagh> mizmo: We need to precede that with something appealing to novices.
15:55:31 <mizmo> why does a novice want to run a server?
15:55:34 <sgallagh> Or else they're going to see "experienced system administrators" and get scared.
15:55:45 <mizmo> what is the use case for that
15:55:59 <sgallagh> mizmo: Well, in the pipeline we have things like a file-server coming.
15:56:18 <mizmo> if its not for mission critical, im not putting my baby photos on it
15:56:39 <mizmo> also isnt a file server the epitome of something you want long lifecycles for?
15:56:54 * mizmo trying to be a pain in the ass booth person
15:57:05 <sgallagh> You're succeeding :-P
15:57:27 <mizmo> well i have to run
15:57:30 <mizmo> i have to eat lunch
15:57:33 <mizmo> should we continue on list?
15:57:38 <sgallagh> mizmo: Can you hold out a couple more minutes?
15:57:48 * mizmo hungry for two, i can do 5 more minutes
15:57:50 <adamw> mizmo: just tell everyone we're Facebook and leave it at that. :P
15:58:18 <sgallagh> mizmo: By "novice" I mean in the Linux sense, not necessarily the holistic "administrator" sense.
15:58:20 <mizmo> adamw, and yet somehow people are ok posting baby photos to that
15:58:41 <mizmo> sgallagh, okay so a sysadmin who is windows trained and wants to play with linux
15:58:46 <sgallagh> Fedora Server is providing technologies that RHEL/CentOS don't yet have that can help e.g. Windows Admins get Linux servers up and running
15:59:09 <mizmo> sgallagh, the thing is we didnt say experienced linux admin we said experienced sys admin
15:59:22 <mizmo> so how do you say experienced admin without it coming across like they are linux trained only
15:59:35 <sgallagh> Good question.
15:59:41 <mizmo> experienced system administrators from any OS?
15:59:46 <mizmo> s/from/of
15:59:56 <sgallagh> yeah, I think that would cover it.
16:00:06 <sgallagh> Without having to specifically call one out.
16:00:21 <sgallagh> And I think that's probably reasonable.
16:00:37 <sgallagh> It's our *goal* to eventually be accessible to holistic novices, but we certainly aren't there yet.
16:00:39 <mizmo> "Fedora Server is a short-lifecycle server operating system that enables system administrators with experience administrating any OS to make use of the very latest server-based technologies available in the open source community."
16:01:00 <sgallagh> s/administrating/on/
16:01:07 <sgallagh> No need for the redundant "admin"
16:01:13 <sgallagh> Otherwise, ShipIt
16:01:14 <mizmo> well its experience admining not using
16:01:27 <sgallagh> True, but it reads hard.
16:01:38 <mizmo> "Fedora Server is a short-lifecycle server operating system that enables system administrators with experience with any OS to make use of the very latest server-based technologies available in the open source community."
16:01:41 <mizmo> how about that
16:01:45 <mizmo> shit no
16:02:00 <mizmo> "Fedora Server is a short-lifecycle server operating system that enables seasoned system administrators experienced with any OS to make use of the very latest server-based technologies available in the open source community."
16:02:13 <mizmo> should it be linux community instead of open source?
16:02:13 <sgallagh> I like that last one
16:02:19 <mizmo> as a contrast to any OS
16:02:26 <sgallagh> No, open source fits better.
16:02:32 <mizmo> okay
16:02:37 <mizmo> we need some kind of line about support too
16:02:49 <mizmo> #info "Fedora Server is a short-lifecycle server operating system that enables seasoned system administrators experienced with any OS to make use of the very latest server-based technologies available in the open source community."
16:02:59 <sgallagh> s/short-lifecycle/short-lifecycle, community-supported/
16:03:00 <mizmo> support, where to get help, etc
16:03:08 <mizmo> oh i mean even in general
16:03:11 <mizmo> a whole separate statement
16:03:19 <mizmo> for people who pick up the flyer, decide to try it, and run into a snag
16:03:23 <mizmo> or just want more info
16:03:29 <sgallagh> I would figure that would be common for all of the fliers, generally
16:03:39 <linux-modder> plug the forum and  irc on the  flyer ?
16:03:40 <mizmo> #info "Fedora Server is a short-lifecycle, community-supported server operating system that enables seasoned system administrators experienced with any OS to make use of the very latest server-based technologies available in the open source community."
16:03:44 <mizmo> well where do we want people to go
16:03:52 <mizmo> we don't have a forum for server do we?
16:04:12 <sgallagh> mizmo: Once Hyperkitty is up, we'll have server@ for that purpose
16:04:16 <nirik> irc and mailing list, but yeah, no forum
16:04:34 <mizmo> okay so we send them to #fedora-server on irc.freenode.net and server@lists.fedoraproject.org ?
16:04:42 <linux-modder> we have  #fedora #fedora-server and G+ at the  very least
16:04:54 <mizmo> sending people to #fedora is like sending them to walk the plank
16:04:56 <sgallagh> Let's... not advertise G+
16:05:05 <sgallagh> The help there is inconsistent at best
16:05:13 <linux-modder> fair enough
16:05:13 <nirik> g+ is pretty horrible for helping people...
16:05:15 <mizmo> do we have any docs?
16:05:38 <mizmo> #info for support point folks to #fedora-server / freenode and server@lists.fpo
16:05:40 <linux-modder> the  install and  sysadmin guides
16:06:05 <mizmo> neither seem to cover rolekit or cockpit
16:06:18 <sgallagh> Yeah, we don't have docs for those yet.
16:06:33 <mizmo> cockpit docs: "Fedora Server is a short-lifecycle server operating system that enables seasoned system administrators experienced with any OS to make use of the very latest server-based technologies available in the open source community.""
16:06:35 <mizmo> grrr
16:06:42 <mizmo> cockpit docs "
16:06:42 <mizmo> If you already have Cockpit on your server, point your web browser to: https://ip-address-of-machine:9090
16:06:42 <mizmo> "
16:06:50 <sgallagh> mizmo: I suspect that some of this will need to be updated once Hubs and Hyperkitty are in play roo
16:06:51 <sgallagh> *too
16:06:52 <mizmo> even if there was something upstream
16:06:53 <linux-modder> http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/22/html/System_Administrators_Guide/index.html
16:06:57 <mizmo> like if i want to play with cockpit where do i read about it?
16:07:16 <mizmo> sgallagh, hubs is only for fedora contribs so it wouldn't factor in. hyperkitty would just be another url to access the same list
16:07:30 <sgallagh> mizmo: Right, but it would be forum-like and more approachable
16:07:34 <sgallagh> (Hyperkitty)
16:07:42 <mizmo> not having docs is bad tho
16:07:51 <mizmo> like here i am reading about how cockpit and rolekit are awesome, but how do i actually use them
16:08:00 <mizmo> if i wanted to use cockpit right now where would you point me?
16:08:26 <sgallagh> mizmo: The Anaconda installer has a banner telling you to browse to "https://<your_hostname>:9090"
16:08:46 <sgallagh> And in F23, it will be displayed at the login prompt as well
16:08:49 <mizmo> sgallagh, but i was in the bathroom / getting coffee
16:08:51 <sgallagh> That's all we've got right now
16:09:14 <mizmo> rolekit the same?
16:09:42 <sgallagh> mizmo: The medium-term goal is for rolekit to be an implementation detail underneath a Cockpit UI
16:10:10 <sgallagh> Right now, it can be used directly with certain CLI tools, but that was never meant to be the end-user experience
16:10:26 <mizmo> we should probably have some wiki page for server with rudimentary instructions on how to try out the tech even if its not where it's where we want to be now - bc part of th epoint is to be able to use the latest, even if it isnt fully baked isnt it
16:10:29 <mizmo> anyway i have to run now
16:10:34 <sgallagh> Yes, agreed.
16:10:37 <mizmo> #info no docs available for rolekit or cockpit
16:10:40 <sgallagh> I'm also late for a lunch appointment.
16:10:41 <mizmo> but i think that's a good start
16:10:49 <sgallagh> mizmo: Thanks for driving this.
16:10:51 <danofsatx> I got pulled away for a sec, but it seems we forgot about ask.fedoraproject.org for support
16:10:53 <mizmo> i can take care of updating the website and sending stuff the ankur
16:10:57 <sgallagh> danofsatx: Oh, right.
16:11:03 <mizmo> #info ask.fpo for support too
16:11:04 <mizmo> okay
16:11:06 * mizmo leaving
16:11:09 <mizmo> :)
16:11:37 <sgallagh> I need to leave as well; if anyone wants to continue, please take over. Else I will endmeeting in 60s
16:11:47 * jsmith has nothing further to add
16:12:41 <sgallagh> #endmeeting