17:02:25 <kushal> #startmeeting Fedora Cloud WG
17:02:25 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Oct 14 17:02:25 2015 UTC.  The chair is kushal. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:02:25 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:02:39 <kushal> .hellomynameis kushal
17:02:40 <zodbot> kushal: kushal 'Kushal Das' <mail@kushaldas.in>
17:02:49 <jbrooks> .hello jasonbrooks
17:02:50 <zodbot> jbrooks: jasonbrooks 'Jason Brooks' <JBROOKS@REDHAT.COM>
17:03:39 <praveenkumar> .hellomynameis kumarpraveen
17:03:39 <zodbot> praveenkumar: kumarpraveen 'None' <kumarpraveen.nitdgp@gmail.com>
17:03:51 <coolsvap> .hellomynameis coolsvap
17:03:52 <zodbot> coolsvap: coolsvap 'Swapnil Kulkarni' <me@coolsvap.net>
17:05:05 <kushal> who else?
17:05:30 <kushal> roshi, gholms number80 ?
17:05:31 <rtnpro> .fas rtnpro
17:05:32 <zodbot> rtnpro: rtnpro 'Ratnadeep Debnath' <rtnpro@gmail.com>
17:07:21 <kushal> #topic Action items from last meeting
17:07:24 <kushal> * dustymabe to create ticket to figure out python3/ansible requirements
17:07:25 <kushal> for cloud
17:07:28 <scollier> .hello scollier
17:07:31 <maxamillion> .hello maxamillion
17:07:32 <zodbot> scollier: scollier 'Scott Collier' <emailscottcollier@gmail.com>
17:07:37 <zodbot> maxamillion: maxamillion 'Adam Miller' <maxamillion@gmail.com>
17:07:40 * dustymabe sneaks in
17:07:41 <sgallagh_> .hello sgallagh
17:07:43 <zodbot> sgallagh_: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
17:07:44 <kushal> dustymabe, did create that ticket.
17:08:07 <sgallagh_> (I'm here whenever the Server/Cloud interaction topic comes up, just ping me)
17:08:22 <dustymabe> #link https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/126
17:08:52 <kushal> dustymabe++
17:09:24 <kushal> dustymabe, so the suggestion I got was that we *have to* install python2
17:09:46 <kushal> I think we can move into the tickets, as this is the first ticket to discuss
17:09:46 <dustymabe> kushal: suggestion from who?
17:09:51 <kushal> sgallagh_, hi there
17:09:53 <kushal> dustymabe, Toshio
17:10:35 <jbrooks> the faq addresses it: http://docs.ansible.com/ansible/faq.html
17:10:39 <kushal> #topic python3 only means ansible won't work https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/126
17:11:01 <dustymabe> kushal: see discussion here
17:11:02 <dustymabe> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2015-October/215740.html
17:11:36 <dustymabe> apparently ansible has a 'raw' mode that we can use to bootstrap and get python2 onto the system
17:11:45 <dustymabe> and any other packages people want
17:12:41 <kushal> dustymabe, that means we have to document it, and blog it, and share enough so that our users come to know about it.
17:13:22 <dustymabe> kushal: yeah
17:13:31 <dustymabe> so two options here
17:13:54 <dustymabe> we either patch it in to the cloud images so it works for now
17:13:59 <dustymabe> and hope ansible moves to python3
17:14:07 <dustymabe> or we educate
17:14:31 <roshi> yeah, I'm here - sorry
17:14:34 <roshi> phone call
17:14:37 <dustymabe> kushal: if you have an opinion can you voice it in https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2015-October/215740.html
17:14:39 <kushal> roshi, welcome :)
17:15:02 <dustymabe> we may choose to do something different in cloud than what the rest of the distro is doing
17:15:07 <kushal> dustymabe, the best way for users would be to move back py2 in the image.
17:15:13 <kushal> dustymabe, Yes.
17:15:21 <roshi> patching it in would be easier, I think
17:15:22 <dustymabe> kushal: I doubt we can for everything
17:15:38 <kushal> dustymabe, everything means?
17:15:39 <dustymabe> all of the higher level tools already use python3
17:15:47 <praveenkumar> as per faq doc of ansible which jbrooks pointed out they will support once usage become more mainstream so may be patching is solution for now.
17:15:53 <kushal> dustymabe, just enough so that ansible works?
17:16:19 <dustymabe> kushal: see the discussion on the mailing list.. the problem is that just adding in python2 doesn't fix things
17:16:27 <dustymabe> there are other libraries that are assumed to be there
17:16:39 <dustymabe> the libraries are still there, but they are python3 now
17:16:41 <dustymabe> vs python2
17:16:41 <kushal> dustymabe, yup, the docker and other packages
17:17:04 <kushal> dustymabe, then let us go with educating users idea.
17:17:31 <roshi> guess we don't have much of a choice - but that still doesn't handle the other py2 stuff
17:17:42 <dustymabe> roshi: what is other py2 stuff?
17:17:51 <kushal> same question here.
17:18:06 <roshi> you said just adding py2 doesn't fix everything
17:18:20 <roshi> nvm me :p
17:18:23 <dustymabe> oh yeah
17:18:34 <dustymabe> it depends on what ansible modules you want to use
17:18:36 * lalatenduM lurking
17:18:53 <dustymabe> anywho we can move discussion to the ticket
17:18:57 <dustymabe> I'll try to summarize
17:19:00 <dustymabe> there
17:19:01 <maxamillion> dustymabe: +1
17:19:03 <kushal> dustymabe, Thanks :)
17:19:11 <praveenkumar> dustymabe: +1
17:20:06 <kushal> moving to next ticket then
17:20:23 * gholms appears
17:20:28 <kushal> #topic Producing Updated Cloud/Atomic Images https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/94
17:21:26 <kushal> We are now buildings images nightly, and making two week releases for testing, https://apps.fedoraproject.org/autocloud/jobs/ is doing the automated testing for the images.
17:21:48 <dustymabe> kushal: and those nightlies are for f23
17:22:03 <dustymabe> so we should be able to use this same process for releasing updated images?
17:22:34 <dustymabe> kushal you told me that rtnpro wrote most of the frontend for https://apps.fedoraproject.org/autocloud/jobs/ right?
17:22:39 <kushal> dustymabe, Yes.
17:22:44 <dustymabe> rtnpro++
17:22:59 <rtnpro> :)
17:23:20 <kushal> dustymabe, so we will have newer rel-eng tools which will help us to do the updated release on time.
17:23:33 <dustymabe> cool deal
17:23:45 <kushal> maxamillion, ^^ do you want to give some update here?
17:24:36 * kushal thinks he is busy in the other meeting.
17:25:11 <kushal> Moving to next ticket.
17:25:29 <kushal> #topic Fedora Cloud FAD (late 2015/early 2016) https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/115
17:25:46 <kushal> So where are we standing right now on this?
17:25:47 <dustymabe> kushal: same status
17:26:01 <kushal> dustymabe, do you want to do it around devconf time in brno?
17:26:04 <dustymabe> let's get F23 out the door
17:26:16 <dustymabe> kushal: perhaps
17:26:25 <kushal> dustymabe, yup, that is important :)
17:26:46 <dustymabe> there are a few days in between FOSDEM and DevConf
17:26:48 <dustymabe> might be a good time
17:27:33 <dustymabe> does roshi have a passport
17:27:39 <dustymabe> :)
17:28:16 <kushal> roshi, ^^^^
17:28:18 <kushal> :)
17:28:25 <roshi> nope - I was hoping this FAD would be US based
17:28:35 <kushal> roshi, good time to get one :)
17:29:01 <dustymabe> roshi: yeah I was planning on it being US based but if we have a bunch of people that are already going to be in one place it might make sense to co-locate
17:29:02 <roshi> I'll telecommute for it :)
17:29:13 <roshi> oh yeah, it makes sense
17:29:14 <kushal> Anyway, we can get more details in after F23 release :)
17:29:20 <dustymabe> kushal: yeah
17:29:30 <kushal> Moving next then.
17:30:03 <kushal> #topic Migrate all Dockerfiles / Images to systemd where possible https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/121
17:30:10 <kushal> Any update on this?
17:30:24 <kushal> praveenkumar, you may want to look into this :)
17:30:37 <praveenkumar> kushal: looking into it.
17:30:49 <coolsvap> i was about to ask who's working on this
17:31:06 <kushal> coolsvap, feel free to join in
17:31:19 <kushal> coolsvap, there are lot to do :)
17:31:28 <coolsvap> kushal, yes
17:31:33 <praveenkumar> kushal: it's not owned by anyone, I think I will just take it and then work on it.
17:31:42 <praveenkumar> coolsvap: yep free to join.
17:32:13 <kushal> scollier, ^^ I got some volunteers for you :D
17:32:22 <scollier> kushal, that's nice, very nice!
17:32:41 <kushal> #action praveenkumar and coolsvap will work on https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/121
17:33:13 <kushal> Moving to next
17:33:45 <coolsvap> anyone working on CI for Fedora-Dockerfiles https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/124
17:33:58 <kushal> coolsvap, that ticket will come up
17:34:13 <dustymabe> hmm adimania not here today :(
17:34:18 * coolsvap sorry, waiting
17:34:19 <kushal> #topic fedora-dockerfiles: Clean up READMEs. https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/122
17:34:32 <kushal> coolsvap no problem, just saying :D
17:34:45 <kushal> coolsvap, btw, https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/report/9 there are the meeting tickets
17:35:52 <kushal> #topic Document process for using Fedora-Dockerfile branches https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/123
17:35:59 <kushal> Any update for this one?
17:37:11 <kushal> #topic CI for Fedora-Dockerfiles https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/124
17:37:23 <kushal> I remember someone wanted to work on it.
17:37:40 <kushal> coolsvap, but you should feel free to put in your ideas on the ticket and then start working :)
17:37:45 <kushal> scollier, ^^ what do you say?
17:37:58 <coolsvap> kushal, will do
17:38:17 <kushal> #action coolsvap will put in his ideas to https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/124
17:38:22 <scollier> kushal, i think that no CI work should be done here.  there's an initiative to move these Dockerfiles to distgit repos.
17:38:28 <scollier> kushal, more info from maxamillion
17:38:39 <kushal> maxamillion, we are missing you :)
17:39:09 <scollier> kushal, the other tickets are valid, because they'll help the maintainers who are taking them over, adjust.
17:39:12 <coolsvap> i know there was some discussion about the distgit repos
17:39:47 <kushal> scollier, yup
17:39:57 <kushal> I guess the last one is the next
17:40:06 <kushal> #topic Fedora-Dockerfiles examples for Kubernetes https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/125
17:40:58 <kushal> volunteers?
17:41:00 <praveenkumar> kushal: I can work on that, web service with db and a we service with db.
17:41:10 <praveenkumar> s/with db/without db/
17:41:13 <kushal> :)
17:41:20 * roshi has never used kubernetes
17:41:29 <kushal> #action praveenkumar will write the examples for https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/125
17:42:48 <kushal> #topic Working with the Server WG https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/127
17:42:53 <kushal> sgallagh_, woo hoo
17:43:11 <sgallagh_> o/
17:44:01 <roshi> cool, sgallagh_ is here :)
17:44:01 <sgallagh_> mattdm made some interesting suggestions in the ticket.
17:44:50 <sgallagh> But in general, the Server SIG has identified "play better with Workstation and Cloud" as a major goal of our F24 efforts.
17:45:01 <sgallagh> So I'm here to figure out what that means :)
17:45:05 <kushal> sgallagh, :)
17:45:20 <kushal> sgallagh, even we have to put in our brains for the same :)
17:45:29 <kushal> Do you have anything particular in mind?
17:46:08 <sgallagh> kushal: Just a few nebulous (ha ha) thoughts.
17:46:19 <maxamillion> scollier: kushal: sorry, I had delivery men come to my door with my new washer and dryer
17:46:34 <roshi> were you expecting them? or was it a surprise?
17:46:47 <maxamillion> roshi: was expecting them inside a 4-hour window
17:46:59 <roshi> ah
17:47:07 <jbrooks> I like the idea of Fedora Server, to be run in the cloud -- I agree w/ the use case vs env focused points that mattdm makes
17:47:18 * roshi was hoping the new washer and dryer fearies were about today
17:47:27 <maxamillion> roshi: :)
17:47:46 <roshi> yeah, it makes a lot of sense
17:48:04 <dustymabe> hmm
17:48:18 <kushal> jbrooks, if they work seamlessly then yes :)
17:48:18 <dustymabe> so how does Fedora-Server Cloud edition differ from cloud base today?
17:48:31 <maxamillion> default package set?
17:48:33 * roshi can think of more ways to work with the workstation group, honestly
17:48:36 <kushal> also NM
17:48:44 <sgallagh> dustymabe: Essentially I think it would be a cloud image containing the complete Server default install
17:49:06 <dustymabe> maxamillion: sgallagh: yeah.. but does anyone know what those differences are?
17:49:14 <dustymabe> how much bigger is it than cloud base today?
17:49:15 <sgallagh> dustymabe: Of course
17:49:16 <jbrooks> I think the server wg could use a minimal image, too
17:49:21 <roshi> so, a server package set with cloud-init added
17:49:30 <kushal> jbrooks, that is also good.
17:49:46 <sgallagh> jbrooks: Our image isn't *very* heavy, but it's heavier than today's cloud base image.
17:49:58 <sgallagh> And having a "minimal" image isn't really a goal.
17:50:08 <sgallagh> The point of Server is to provide a known and useful *platform*.
17:50:12 <jbrooks> 2.1GB?
17:50:17 <roshi> maybe add more bells and whistles to clout-to-server?
17:50:19 <maxamillion> dustymabe: I don't off the top of my head, no
17:50:28 <sgallagh> jbrooks: There's more on the DVD than in the default install set
17:51:01 <sgallagh> The default install is around 900MB I think
17:51:23 <sgallagh> But that's going to drop substantially once we get FreeIPA converted to Python 3 and can drop the last of Python 2
17:51:39 <sgallagh> FreeIPA and Samba, excuse me
17:51:41 <jbrooks> OK, maybe it's a matter of media, then -- when I see the 2.1GB dl, I always think... dang
17:51:47 <dustymabe> yeah. I guess I just don't see the benefit of converting to a Server product
17:52:06 <dustymabe> I think server is useful in a setting where you use kickstarts and can pick/choose what packages get installed
17:52:06 <roshi> yeah, I'm not seeing a huge benefit here, tbh
17:52:28 <dustymabe> when making images I'm not a big fan of putting things in there that aren't going to be used
17:52:32 <roshi> I mean, rolekit is great for real servers, but cloud-init and ansible is more than enough for cloud deployments - that's what most of them would be anyways,right?
17:52:38 <sgallagh> roshi: OK, so let's start looking at things from the other direction
17:52:39 <dustymabe> hence try to make them small and let the user confiugre
17:52:54 <roshi> sure
17:53:01 <sgallagh> Is Server perhaps useful as a host platform for an IaaS cloud?
17:53:06 <dustymabe> mattdm: you around?
17:53:09 <roshi> (just because I'm not seeing it now, doesn't mean it's not there :P )
17:53:13 <dustymabe> you might have some input
17:53:27 <sgallagh> Sure, this is an exploration.
17:53:31 <roshi> sure
17:53:47 <dustymabe> sgallagh: hypervisor host?
17:53:52 <sgallagh> It's always possible this will just come back to "Server and Cloud remain mortal enemies. Pistols at first light"
17:53:52 <kushal> We should discuss more about  this than only the meeting.
17:54:03 <kushal> sgallagh, hahhaha
17:54:08 <roshi> that was more what I had in mind, actually - not any kind of merger between images or anything like that
17:54:20 <dustymabe> sgallagh: I like server :)
17:54:21 <sgallagh> dustymabe: Perhaps
17:55:00 <sgallagh> To level-set the conversation, I could give you some examples of where we're going to work closer with Workstation.
17:55:04 <dustymabe> sgallagh: I guess maybe I'm old school.. If I were going to build an Iaas I would pick/choose the packages I needed
17:55:51 <sgallagh> dustymabe: So, maybe a quick architecture explanation of Server would be helpful.
17:55:59 <dustymabe> sgallagh: yes probably!
17:56:07 <dustymabe> I've only used it to kickstart machines
17:56:13 <dustymabe> not as a base install
17:56:14 <sgallagh> Server is intended to be a mostly-minimal install, except it has a few specific additional things that are intended to be useful in *most cases*.
17:56:51 <sgallagh> Those additional pieces are pretty much NetworkManager, PackageKit, PolicyKit, firewalld, storaged and rolekit (plus whatever dependencies that brings in)
17:57:05 <sgallagh> And we're working hard to reduce those dep-chains.
17:57:41 <sgallagh> (Oh and Cockpit)
17:58:06 <sgallagh> The main reason being that those each provide D-BUS APIs and clear integration points with low-level functionality.
17:58:14 <kushal> We have 2 minutes to set the fuse.
17:58:26 <sgallagh> /me licks his fingers and pinches the wick
17:58:31 <dustymabe> sgallagh: ok.
17:58:31 <coolsvap> maxamillion, hi, would you be available to discuss about https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/124 CI for Fedora-Dockerfiles sometime tomorrow?
17:58:42 <maxamillion> coolsvap: certainly
17:59:02 <coolsvap> maxamillion, thanks!
17:59:08 <dustymabe> sgallagh: I need to familiarize myself with server more
17:59:08 <maxamillion> coolsvap: a lot of it very conceptual right now because we're waiting on something upstream to solidify before actually putting together the build system bits
17:59:20 <dustymabe> I haven't used a several of those tools much
17:59:21 <maxamillion> coolsvap: but we can certainly talk about it and get that stuff on the radar
17:59:23 <sgallagh> dustymabe: So reducing the dependencies there will get us to something not terribly dissimilar from a minimal install, but with clearly identifiable integration points, rather than aiming at the moving target of the underlying tech
17:59:46 <coolsvap> maxamillion, sounds good
17:59:50 <praveenkumar> coolsvap: maxamillion count me in also for that discussion.
17:59:56 <maxamillion> praveenkumar: sounds good
18:00:01 <coolsvap> praveenkumar, ack!
18:00:02 <dustymabe> praveenkumar: you should make a calendar invite
18:00:03 <sgallagh> rolekit exists specifically to help deploy *solutions* atop that minimal platform, and one such solution could be "hypervisor host". Or "OpenShift Node", etc.
18:00:33 <praveenkumar> dustymabe: +1, yep, I let me do that.
18:00:35 <sgallagh> (Today we can deploy FreeIPA, PostgreSQL or memcached through rolekit, with more coming)
18:00:49 <kushal> time over
18:00:57 <kushal> We have to close down this meeting now
18:01:12 <kushal> sgallagh, we can move the discussion over the mailing list :)
18:01:20 <sgallagh> OK, we can continue this discussion elsewhere. This was meant to catalyze the discussion
18:01:28 <kushal> sgallagh, sorry
18:01:39 <kushal> #endmeeting