16:05:19 <sgallagh> #startmeeting Server Working Group Weekly Meeting (2016-02-23)
16:05:19 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Feb 23 16:05:19 2016 UTC.  The chair is sgallagh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:05:19 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:05:19 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'server_working_group_weekly_meeting_(2016-02-23)'
16:05:24 <sgallagh> #chair sgallagh mizmo nirik stefw adamw simo danofsatx mhayden jds2001
16:05:24 <zodbot> Current chairs: adamw danofsatx jds2001 mhayden mizmo nirik sgallagh simo stefw
16:05:25 <sgallagh> #topic roll call
16:05:29 <sgallagh> .hello sgallagh
16:05:30 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
16:05:35 <jds2001> .hello jstanley
16:05:36 <zodbot> jds2001: jstanley 'Jon Stanley' <jonstanley@gmail.com>
16:05:44 <nirik> morning
16:05:47 <nirik> .hello kevin
16:05:49 <zodbot> nirik: kevin 'Kevin Fenzi' <kevin@scrye.com>
16:06:03 <adamw> .hello adamwill
16:06:04 <zodbot> adamw: adamwill 'Adam Williamson' <awilliam@redhat.com>
16:08:17 <sgallagh> OK, we don't have quorum or an agenda, but I'm still going to open up the floor.
16:08:25 <sgallagh> #topic Open Floor
16:08:37 * jds2001 wnats to talk about our plans for flock
16:08:41 <sgallagh> /me notes that while he was away, no one installed the requested spikes at the bottom
16:08:43 * adamw is deep in thickets of compose process stuff
16:08:53 * jds2001 notes that they do not include me getting injured in any way :D
16:09:36 <nirik> we should also decide about usb creator being primary for server downloads or not.
16:09:45 <nirik> (at least I don't think we ever did)
16:09:55 <sgallagh> Yes
16:10:00 * jds2001 recalls seeing it on the list, but not discussed here
16:10:16 <sgallagh> ok, so let's start with the image stuff, since that's more immediately necessary
16:10:30 <sgallagh> #topic Fedora Server Primary Download
16:10:59 <jds2001> so i have to admit being slightly confused.
16:11:02 <nirik> I'm personally fine offering the usb creator thingie as primary, as long as direct downloads are still offered somewhere for those that want thm
16:11:12 <sgallagh> nirik: Yeah, I'm leaning the same way.
16:11:24 <sgallagh> I think we need to describe the problem that this is trying to solve better.
16:11:38 <jds2001> ok, so instead of downlaoding media, we give some way to make a usb stick instead?
16:11:48 <nirik> yeah, an application.
16:11:55 <jds2001> i.e livecd-iso-to-disk but more friendly?
16:11:56 <nirik> that can download and setup a usb.
16:12:04 <nirik> and verify it, etc
16:12:05 <adamw> jds2001: sorta, yeahj.
16:12:19 <sgallagh> /me notes that we're still focusing on "how", not "why"
16:12:31 <adamw> sgallagh: i think the reason is "so you don't have to know what to do with an ISO"?
16:12:38 <adamw> and also "so you don't wind up using rufus and being sad"
16:12:44 <sgallagh> adamw: I think there are multiple reasons
16:12:46 <jds2001> sgallagh: helps to understand what the proposal *is* before deciding if it's needed :)
16:13:09 <sgallagh> It helps to know why there's a proposal before deciding if a specific implementation is good ;)
16:13:16 <jds2001> adamw: do we think *our* target users wont know what to do with an ISO?
16:13:20 <sgallagh> So, let me list a few things.
16:13:22 <jds2001> or in fact prefer that method?
16:13:51 <sgallagh> 1) ISOs hail from a time where the expectation was that someone would burn an image to a piece of spinning plastic.
16:14:07 <sgallagh> Something like half of all computers sold these days do not have CD/DVD/Blu-Ray drives anymore
16:14:41 <sgallagh> For those systems, an alternative install medium (usually a USB device) is required to install an OS
16:15:29 <sgallagh> 2) The process of converting an ISO image to another install medium is difficult for non-expert users.
16:15:40 <simo> adamw: i installl primarily VMs and prefer the network instal ISO over the full ISO, but I still prefer an ISO to any more compllicated process
16:15:41 * jds2001 suspects that a lot of Server installation are in virtual environments
16:15:55 <adamw> yeah, VMs is the obvious case where luc is not what you want.
16:15:58 <jds2001> where they have the option to emulate the spinning plastic without killing the earth :D
16:15:59 <simo> I woudl really prefer *not* to have to urn a too to create a USB devices for my VMs
16:16:07 <simo> *run a tool
16:16:22 <sgallagh> Right, I don't think anyone has proposed taking away the ISO as an option.;
16:16:35 <sgallagh> I think we're talking about whether we make the tool the more prominent choice on the website.
16:17:00 <adamw> i'm assuming we don't have any actual user statistics or feedback, as per usual, and are just making wild ass guesses, as per usual? :)
16:17:04 <simo> sgallagh: do we have stats about whether people install on baremetal or VM more often ?
16:17:10 <nirik> adamw: of course! :)
16:17:16 <adamw> my wild-ass guess would be that ISO is probably still more appropriate to server users, for whatever it's worth.
16:17:18 <jds2001> adamw: is there any other way? :)
16:17:21 <sgallagh> adamw: Well, we have no statistics, but we do have some feedback
16:17:28 <adamw> ooh, okay. let's hear it.
16:17:35 <simo> adamw: that would be my wil guess too, but I am biased
16:17:49 <sgallagh> There are plenty of forum posts around the web complaining about how Fedora doesn't write a usable USB disk using $FLAVOR-OF-THE-MONTH tool
16:18:19 <sgallagh> Where "Fedora" primarily refers to Fedora Workstation, of course
16:18:22 <adamw> right
16:18:32 <adamw> i meant *Fedora Server* specific feedback
16:18:51 <sgallagh> OK, in that case, not much.
16:18:57 <adamw> okay, WAG stands, i guess. :P
16:19:23 * jds2001 is with adamw's WAG
16:19:45 <sgallagh> I can't back this up, but I'd guess that the sort of person who installs Fedora Server is likely to be more comfortable with the command-line than an average Workstation downloader
16:20:04 <adamw> for me "much more likely to be installing to something VM-y" is the most important consideration, but that too
16:20:23 <sgallagh> And that's a valid point to consider.
16:20:24 <adamw> (i worry that Workstation haven't sufficiently considered the VM case, but that's not our problem!)
16:20:26 <jds2001> this goes to who is the target audience for Fedora Server?
16:20:39 <sgallagh> /me installs Server on bare metal, but mostly as a VM host for many more Fedora Servers in VMs
16:20:58 <jds2001> sgallagh: how do you do that today?
16:21:12 * jds2001 bets PXE or something
16:21:12 <sgallagh> I dd the ISO to a USB drive and boot from that.
16:21:22 <jds2001> ahh
16:21:29 <sgallagh> But my set of machines is small (< 5)
16:21:39 <sgallagh> So the overhead to set up PXE isn't warranted.
16:22:43 <sgallagh> But the fact that you make the assumption that I would use PXE for that adds to my suspicion that we would be appealing to a more technically-competent installer
16:23:11 <sgallagh> /me considers that it might actually be in our interest to work on a Server Role for setting up PXE-based installations
16:23:35 <jsmith> sgallagh: You had me at PXE :-p
16:24:02 <sgallagh> So I'm getting a little off track.
16:24:11 * nirik also uses PXE
16:24:39 <sgallagh> As the FMC folks have said, the tool will support Server regardless, so the only question to us is "How heavily do we want to promote that vs. the other methods?"
16:24:49 <jds2001> PXE is useful for VM's as well as bare metal, so yeah....that's what I do
16:25:42 <sgallagh> I wonder if we might discuss with the Websites people about having alternative workflows to figure out what to download:
16:26:07 <sgallagh> "Is this your first time installing a Linux distro? Use this handy tool!" vs. "I just want the latest ISO, dammit"
16:26:12 <jsmith> sgallagh: I think they'd be open to it
16:26:48 <adamw> though i also think we already did one redesign to *take away* choices
16:27:01 <sgallagh> /me nods
16:27:05 <adamw> oh well, "progress" is defined as "moving around in a circle at ever increasing speeds", right?
16:27:22 <sgallagh> Right, eliminate choices that the user isn't prepared to make.
16:29:13 <sgallagh> It sounds to me like we're generally leaning towards not promoting this tool
16:29:44 <sgallagh> Probably enough to blog/FMag that you *can* use the tool and not muddy the download page with it.
16:30:57 <adamw> that would be my inclination at least for now
16:31:05 * nirik shrugs, ok.
16:31:10 <adamw> i think the current download pages do link out to USB writing instructions somehow or other, just not terribly prominently
16:31:12 * jds2001 as well
16:31:19 <adamw> i mean, i'd be open to something choice-y, i'm just not sure design people would love it
16:31:19 <sgallagh> Proposal: The Server SIG believes that its target audience will install using the ISO image more commonly than by the USB tool. We will not promote the media creator on the download page.
16:31:57 <jds2001> +1
16:32:00 <nirik> +1
16:32:38 <sgallagh> We *should* change the text: "To use this image, you need a drive that can create or "burn" DVDs, or a USB flash drive at least as big as the image." since of course we expect that VMs will be common.
16:33:15 <adamw> point
16:33:38 <adamw> i can be +1 though i might prefer something a *bit* less prescriptive about what's on the download page (since we kinda should take input from web page design-y people about that)
16:33:39 <sgallagh> Also, https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/23/html/Installation_Guide/sect-preparing-boot-media.html will need a rewrite for the new FMC tool. But that's not directly our problem.
16:33:59 <adamw> as will https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_create_and_use_Live_USB
16:34:01 <sgallagh> adamw: Depends on how you define "promote"
16:34:04 * adamw throws it on his giant todo list
16:34:06 <adamw> sgallagh: truer
16:34:11 <sgallagh> I didn't forbid its presence, just its prominence.
16:34:27 <sgallagh> (at least, that was my intent; I'll rephrase it)
16:34:41 <sgallagh> Proposal: The Server SIG believes that its target audience will install using the ISO image more commonly than by the USB tool. We will not prominently feature the media creator on the download page.
16:35:03 <jds2001> +1 to the new proposal as well
16:35:27 <adamw> +1
16:35:42 <nirik> sure. +1
16:35:49 <sgallagh> +1 for the record
16:36:09 <sgallagh> simo, jsmith?
16:36:21 <simo> one sec
16:36:30 <jsmith> Sure, +1 I guess...
16:36:45 <sgallagh> jsmith: If you have reservations, speak them :)
16:36:53 <simo> +1
16:37:06 <jsmith> sgallagh: No, I'm just distracted by another IRC meeting + ${DAYJOB} phone call
16:37:10 <sgallagh> ok
16:37:13 <jsmith> sgallagh: I'm good :-)
16:37:26 <sgallagh> #agreed he Server SIG believes that its target audience will install using the ISO image more commonly than by the USB tool. We will not prominently feature the media creator on the download page. (+6, 0, -0)
16:37:28 <sgallagh> #undo
16:37:28 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: AGREED by sgallagh at 16:37:26 : he Server SIG believes that its target audience will install using the ISO image more commonly than by the USB tool. We will not prominently feature the media creator on the download page. (+6, 0, -0)
16:37:34 <sgallagh> #agreed The Server SIG believes that its target audience will install using the ISO image more commonly than by the USB tool. We will not prominently feature the media creator on the download page. (+6, 0, -0)
16:37:52 <sgallagh> #topic Plans for Flock
16:38:07 <sgallagh> First off, who plans to attend?
16:38:19 * jds2001 should be tehre
16:38:34 * nirik will likely be there.
16:38:42 <adamw> i may well not be
16:39:05 <nirik> :(
16:39:16 <adamw> travel from west coast is awful, i have a vacation planned to end on the 2nd
16:39:28 <jds2001> adamw: who runs poker or brings Canadian whiskey without you?
16:39:44 <simo> where is Flock ?
16:39:49 * simo forgot :/
16:39:50 <adamw> jds2001: stickster and the Canadian Whisky Fairy
16:39:51 <jds2001> Krakow, Poland
16:39:59 <simo> uhmm
16:40:37 * jsmith should hopefully be there, but it will depend on his employment situation
16:41:01 <sgallagh> I will be there as well
16:42:40 <sgallagh> jds2001: So you wanted to talk about plans: did you have specific questions or ideas?
16:44:27 <jds2001> sgallagh: just if we were planning on talks, etc
16:44:56 <jds2001> and on what topics
16:45:02 <sgallagh> I'm going to submit my annual talk on Fedora Server in general.
16:45:04 <jds2001> or hackfests, etc
16:45:31 <sgallagh> And if we do get that rolekit refactor done soon, I want to run a role-creation hackfest
16:45:47 * adamw has to run, if there are any more votes i give my proxy to simo
16:46:35 * simo rubs his hand, conquest of the brd is one step closer mwahahahahaha
16:47:00 <sgallagh> Anyone else want to give any Server-specific or Server-adjacent talks?
16:47:05 <simo> sgallagh: I have a q. if we have time btw
16:47:21 <simo> (not necessarily flock related)
16:47:31 <sgallagh> Go ahead.
16:47:36 <sgallagh> No one else seems to be jumping in
16:47:37 * jds2001 was thinking of a "Server usecases" type of talk
16:47:45 <jds2001> but it's half-baked at best right now
16:48:01 <simo> sgallagh: any progress/thinking/anything on the ABI/dependencies stuff ?
16:48:23 <simo> also any though about the modularity stuff and how it will affect us ?
16:48:24 <sgallagh> simo: Were you around when we got the update from them a few weeks ago?
16:48:45 <simo> sgallagh: A few weeks ago I was traveling so I may have missed it
16:49:05 <sgallagh> simo: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2016-01-26/serversig.2016-01-2 6-16.00.log.html
16:49:21 <sgallagh> Sorry, http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2016-01-26/serversig.2016-01-26-16.00.log.html
16:49:45 <sgallagh> Oh, you were in the conversation
16:49:53 <simo> what about the modularity ?
16:50:29 <simo> sgallagh: I gather there are no updates since then (by "a few weeks" I though there had been a more recent update)
16:50:47 <sgallagh> simo: I'm not really sure, honestly. I think Red Hat *wants* us to be a guinea pig for that, but I haven't heard any concrete plans or support for doing so. So... *shrug*?
16:51:08 <sgallagh> simo: No, I haven't heard anything about it since then.
16:51:17 <nirik> there was a heads up at the last fesco meeting...
16:51:28 <nirik> that some of this will start to get discussed/worked on...
16:51:28 <sgallagh> Though I changed teams and took a vacation during that time, so I may have missed something
16:51:42 <sgallagh> nirik: Go on?
16:53:14 <nirik> thats all.
16:55:07 <sgallagh> whee
16:55:11 <nirik> "over the next few weeks, there will likely be increased activity around what modularity means to Fedora and how groups are going to start looking at it"
16:55:53 <sgallagh> I hear mattdm's voice coming from that
16:57:15 <jds2001> umm that's all well and good, but what does it *mean*?
16:58:09 <sgallagh> I think I'll ask some of the modularity gurus to come to next week's meeting.
16:58:18 <sgallagh> Let's plan for that to be the topic of the day,
16:58:27 <nirik> jds2001: we don't know yet. ;)
16:59:55 * jds2001 has got to run.....
17:01:06 <sgallagh> #info We will have a meeting on Modularity next week with guest speakers.
17:01:22 <sgallagh> I also need to go, so unless anyone has other urgent questions?
17:06:04 * nirik has nothing.
17:06:08 <nirik> meeting end?
17:07:22 <sgallagh> #endmeeting