15:01:01 <mjwolf> #startmeeting Server Working Group Weekly Meeting (2016-07-26)
15:01:02 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Jul 26 15:01:01 2016 UTC.  The chair is mjwolf. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:01:02 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:01:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'server_working_group_weekly_meeting_(2016-07-26)'
15:01:13 <mjwolf> #chair danofsatx nirik stefw adamw simi mhayden jds2001 mjwolf hanthana
15:01:13 <zodbot> Current chairs: adamw danofsatx hanthana jds2001 mhayden mjwolf nirik simi stefw
15:01:20 <sgallagh> .hello sgallagh
15:01:21 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
15:01:29 <bconoboy> .hello blc
15:01:29 <nirik> .hello kevin
15:01:29 <zodbot> bconoboy: blc 'Brendan Conoboy' <blc@redhat.com>
15:01:30 <sgallagh> mjwolf: (it's simo, not simi, FYI)
15:01:32 <zodbot> nirik: kevin 'Kevin Fenzi' <kevin@scrye.com>
15:01:54 <mjwolf> ah crud I cant cut and paste then :(   thanks I will update my notes
15:02:26 <mjwolf> thanks
15:02:32 <mhayden> .hello mhayden
15:02:34 <zodbot> mhayden: mhayden 'Major Hayden' <major@mhtx.net>
15:02:59 <langdon> .hello langdon
15:03:00 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@fishjump.com>
15:05:06 <sgallagh> /me is concerned by the lack of attendees.
15:05:11 <sgallagh> This is an important meeting
15:05:53 <bconoboy> Lots of people getting ready for flock?  I know I need a new little toothpaste tube.
15:06:12 * mhayden is in a videoconf meeting along with this meeting
15:06:14 <nirik> adamw is on vacation.
15:06:34 <sgallagh> mjwolf: Well, even lacking quorum we should probably discuss the Flock sessions
15:07:02 <mjwolf> agreed.  it is a bit past the hour I think we have all the people that are going to show
15:07:34 <mjwolf> So I will be at flock and can attend the PRD session.  I believe sgallagh you mentioned another working session
15:07:45 <mjwolf> my main concern is the server talk itself
15:08:15 <sgallagh> Right, there is a "Server SIG Pow Wow" scheduled at 13:30 on Friday.
15:08:41 <sgallagh> Unfortunately, my flight got moved up and I won't be able to attend it, but it was intended to be a block of time we could use to kickstart our year's efforts.
15:08:48 <sgallagh> With whatever we decide we're going to focus on
15:08:54 <mjwolf> ok and what is that?  Is that a session to help determine where  the server should go
15:09:04 <mjwolf> ok I can attend that as well
15:09:08 <mjwolf> I dont leave until Sat
15:09:21 <mjwolf> and take notes
15:09:28 * nirik should be at both barring being sucked into something else. :)
15:09:36 <sgallagh> It's meant to be a working session, which may mean active planning, but I think we want to have the broad strokes worked out at the State of the Union session if possible
15:09:42 <sgallagh> So people know what they're coming to work on
15:10:18 <bconoboy> I'll be there on Friday though I'm not an official serverwg member
15:10:56 <sgallagh> bconoboy: WG is only for voting. Anyone who wants to contribute is always welcome.
15:11:05 <sgallagh> (And may eventually be asked to become a voting member)
15:11:20 <mjwolf> and the State of the Union is the part I'm most uncomfortable with.  Not really sure what should be covered
15:12:11 <nirik> well, I'd say a chunk could talk about f24 stuff... rolekit and partitioning changes and whatever else we did in f23/f24?
15:12:20 <sgallagh> mjwolf: I generally ran it as a two-part session: the first part was a recap of the changes made since the previous Flock.
15:12:36 <sgallagh> The rest of the session was interactive with the attendees about where we should go next
15:12:50 <mjwolf> ah interactive....
15:13:08 <nirik> although it's sometimes hard to get people to chime in...
15:13:25 <sgallagh> Right, although I think bconoboy and langdon may have something to add there...
15:13:35 * bconoboy nudges langdon
15:13:49 <mjwolf> ok.  so I know one of the things mentioned in this meeting was replacing rolekit with openshift and there other ideas to stimulate the conversation
15:13:49 <langdon> ha
15:13:55 * langdon in two meetings
15:14:04 <bconoboy> langdon: I can take it if you prefer
15:14:11 * langdon typing
15:14:12 <nirik> so really it's: a) go on as we have and try and find people to work on rolekit, etc... b) switch to our roles being containers and have a openshift install to run them, c) something else?
15:14:30 <bconoboy> we have a c)
15:14:35 <langdon> well.. coming from the modularity-wg .. we have "doing a server edition in modules" by f26 in our plan..
15:14:49 <langdon> probably a "built in fedora-stg" version
15:15:01 <nirik> ah, that could indeed be interesting.
15:15:06 <sgallagh> langdon: Maybe you could talk a little bit about what that might look like?
15:15:42 <langdon> well.. modularity needs a "release channel".. and we thought server edition was the "simplest" given how we are proceeding with modules..
15:16:09 <langdon> the basic idea being this thing we call base-runtime module stack to light up a machine.. and then "things on top" with independent lifecycles
15:16:27 <langdon> we also have the concept of "install profiles" which are largely similar to roles.. but less interactive
15:16:36 <nirik> so modules wouldn't be a 1 for 1 replacement for roles right? ie, if we made a freeipa module it would more be the packages and such needed, but wouldn't handle config or the like? or would it?
15:16:45 <nirik> ah ha.
15:17:02 <langdon> right now.. modules don't have the "interactive part".. but i think it may be something to explore..
15:17:27 <langdon> our idea was more like "i need httpd to develop a website" vs "i need httpd to production serve a website"
15:17:37 * nirik nods.
15:17:46 <langdon> or w/ base-runtime "i need the bits for a container image" vs "i need the bits to build a vm"
15:17:54 <langdon> *container base image
15:18:11 <langdon> so.. we have been planning to get more tightly integrated with the server-wg post flock..
15:18:26 <sgallagh> langdon: nirik asks a good question though: are modules just bits or are they bits+configuration/deployment?
15:18:33 <langdon> so we could start working on how it would / could be modularized.. and what problems server has that we haven't though of
15:18:47 <nirik> as far as some of this perhaps cockpit could gain module handling abilities, since it already does a lot of config?
15:18:51 <sgallagh> langdon: I think "post-flock" should be changed to "at Flock", don't you?
15:19:14 <mjwolf> I like "at flock" idea.
15:19:27 <langdon> sgallagh, arggh.. i think that is a tough q.. the UX is still the most up in the air.. but I think they could be bits+config+deployment.. but we have mostly explored bits+config
15:19:35 <bconoboy> definitely at flock
15:19:58 * nirik thinks this at least gives us several things to float in the talk and discuss at the workshop. ;)
15:20:01 <langdon> sgallagh, re:flock) perhaps.. "post my preso and have stopped losing my mind at flock" would be more accurate ;)
15:20:17 <sgallagh> langdon: Tall order ;-)
15:20:20 <bconoboy> especially if we're planning for a full 12 months
15:20:44 <bconoboy> because the infrastructure isn't completely ready to go today, but it will be in short order
15:20:50 <langdon> nirik, re: cockpit) we have actually been building the "ux" as a library to be included in dnf, or cockpit or gnome-software or whatever
15:21:02 <mjwolf> so I'm confused about what is the difference between the 2nd half of the state of the union and the friday session
15:21:06 <bconoboy> so waiting until the next flock, or even devconf, is more of a wait than needed
15:21:14 <nirik> cool. ;)
15:21:20 <sgallagh> Yeah, I'd love to see us have a prototype or "beta" around the F26 timeframe with something production-ready by F27.
15:21:29 <mjwolf> So bring up these ideas in the state of the union and flush out the detail in the working session?
15:21:37 <sgallagh> mjwolf: Exactly.
15:21:44 <langdon> what bconoboy said.. we are trying to have "most of module building" in fedora-stg by flock.. build server for f26 in that stg env by devconf.. and then, hopefully, build for prod in f27
15:21:47 <nirik> mjwolf: yeah, discussion first, then working/planning on it in the workshop
15:21:51 <sgallagh> Or rather "bring up and gather ideas at the state of the union".
15:21:58 <sgallagh> There may be audience members with good questions too
15:22:21 <mjwolf> right I understand now.
15:22:45 <sgallagh> langdon: "library" in what sense? A literal C/Python/Golang module or a language-agnostic API?
15:22:59 <langdon> sgallagh, python
15:23:00 <sgallagh> Maybe that's too low-level for this discussion. I withdraw it.
15:23:14 <langdon> but the server has an api.. restful.. so agnostic too
15:24:12 * langdon hopes the state of the union is not at the same time as modularity talk
15:24:34 <nirik> it's not
15:24:38 <sgallagh> Man, I wish the schedule wasn't set in stone already. With all this to work on, I'd have asked to swap it to the morning so I wouldn't miss it. Maybe I can BlueJeans into it from the airport...
15:25:11 <nirik> sgallagh: perhaps we can trade with some other workshop eariler?
15:25:25 <sgallagh> nirik: Well, the conbooks are printed, so it would likely be a pain
15:25:33 <nirik> ah, ok.
15:26:15 <langdon> so.. can i ask a more meta question?
15:26:25 <sgallagh> That said, there's nothing stopping us from hashing some things out on the boat cruise or something :)
15:26:29 <sgallagh> langdon: Of course
15:26:51 <langdon> what do y'all think of the modules plan? do you think it would make sense for server to be the flagship? do you know much about the modularity work?
15:27:13 <mjwolf> I do not do you have a url?
15:27:29 <sgallagh> I think I know more about it than most (and still much less than I'd like to), but I think Server is an obvious choice.
15:27:38 <sgallagh> s/but/and/
15:27:47 <nirik> I've followed along as best I can with the time I have... and yeah, I think it might be a good flagship case.
15:27:56 <bconoboy> I've always assumed Server would be the first user of modularity.
15:28:09 <sgallagh> One of the biggest reasons people hesitate to use Fedora on a server is the Too Fast/Too Slow problem.
15:28:10 <langdon> mjwolf, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Modularity
15:28:15 <mjwolf> thanks
15:28:16 <sgallagh> This is a chance to directly address that
15:28:27 <bconoboy> sgallagh: exactly
15:28:28 <nirik> yeah.
15:28:47 <mjwolf> too fast/ too slow in a release sense?
15:28:59 <langdon> fundamentally.. modularity is about allowing for lifecycle independence of "modules"
15:29:01 <langdon> ...
15:29:28 <langdon> modules are "pieces of software" .. be it the bits that light up the hardware or a web server or a set of things like a LAMP stack
15:29:49 <langdon> does that help?
15:30:17 <sgallagh> mjwolf: It's more: "I want this system to remain exactly the same for five years, except this 1% case that I always want to be tracking upstream"
15:30:27 <langdon> ha
15:30:36 <mjwolf> ah ok.
15:30:47 <langdon> and.. we would like you to be able to "codify" that in the system itself.. so "yum update" just works
15:31:43 <nirik> yeah, the old... "I want super stable, only security updates, don't bother me, except for php, which I need the very newest version"
15:31:54 <sgallagh> (and do that without experiencing the dangers of getting stuff uncurated from upstream)
15:32:01 <bconoboy> So, going back to flock... where are we?
15:32:36 <nirik> I think we are in good shape for more discussion there. ;)
15:32:37 <mjwolf> ugh it would seem that if you pick the wrong thing the dependancy list could be larger than you like
15:32:43 <sgallagh> Does anyone want to speak *against* making modular delivery a key part of the F26/F27 strategy?
15:32:48 <mjwolf> and yes lots to dicuss
15:32:52 <langdon> mjwolf, magic happens there :)
15:33:18 <sgallagh> Right, don't look too hard at the sausage. It's from Ankh-Morpork.
15:33:56 <nirik> mjwolf: do you have enough for the talk?
15:34:13 <sgallagh> (I'll also point out that, unlike some of our other efforts in the past, modularity has people actively working on it who just volunteered to work with the Server SIG)
15:34:29 <mjwolf> yes I think there are plenty of seeds to get folks thinking.  and like sgallagh points out I would hope for more suggestions from the audience
15:34:29 <sgallagh> nirik: We might want to walk through a list of the last year with him
15:34:37 <sgallagh> Unless you think we should take that to the mailing list instead
15:34:50 <langdon> "had planned to work with the server sig" ... just bringing it up now because we had some concerns about making sure we fit in to your plans
15:34:51 <nirik> either way. I'd have to look up f23 changes... it's been so long
15:35:59 <sgallagh> langdon: Well "had planned to" < "is now doing" :)
15:36:30 <langdon> sgallagh, true.. i am just pointing out .. we had this in our plan.. so we have staffing for it.. not just a "shot in the dark and a prayer"
15:36:48 <sgallagh> mjwolf: I might also mention at the session that there is at least one open seat in the WG. simo reminded me that he resigned several weeks ago
15:37:07 <mjwolf> yes I had that on my mental list already
15:37:36 <mjwolf> didnt make sense to bring it up for the meeting.  hoping for candidates and either settle at flock or at the next meeting after
15:38:11 <nirik> so for f25 we are kinda in a holding pattern with the current setup right?
15:38:13 <mjwolf> I mean get candidate names at flock or deal with it immediately after flock
15:38:14 <sgallagh> If this modularity thing gets traction, maybe someone from that side will volunteer for a seat on the Server WG to maintain communication lines?
15:38:26 <bconoboy> canddiates should probably go hand in hand with planning at flock, ne?
15:38:31 <langdon> +1
15:38:35 <sgallagh> nirik: Yeah, F25 is not really going to see any changes beyond package rebases.
15:38:48 <bconoboy> since you want people on the wg that represent the direction the wg chooses
15:38:50 <nirik> right. but we need to try and keep everything working. ;)
15:38:57 <langdon> i do have someone taking on leadership of base-runtime module which i think maps most directly in the near term..
15:40:22 * langdon notes there isn't a great reference to point at for what that is yet aside from a recent demo : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKUioQTl-Bo&list=PLcwHJG45BmAN0XNiNsLbF7203HCNBPZWG&index=2
15:41:05 * nirik saves link for later
15:41:34 <sgallagh> mjwolf: So what else do you need to prepare?
15:41:50 * nirik gets more coffee, back in a min.
15:42:04 <sgallagh> Do you want to send a mail to the list asking for a list of stuff for the first part of the session?
15:42:07 * langdon glares at empty coffee pot
15:42:14 <mjwolf> we covered everthing here.  I would still like an conversation on the list about f23/f24 changes
15:42:27 <sgallagh> OK, kick it off and I'll add my notes after lunch
15:42:33 <mjwolf> ok
15:43:06 <mjwolf> so are there any other topics people want to cover today?
15:44:28 <bconoboy> please join langdon's modularity presentation :-)
15:44:40 <langdon> there will be live demos!
15:44:47 <langdon> so you know that will be fun
15:44:50 <sgallagh> bconoboy: This is his Flock session?
15:44:58 <langdon> sgallagh, yeah
15:45:00 <bconoboy> https://flock2016.sched.org/event/6yoy/modularity-why-where-we-are-and-how-to-get-involved
15:45:01 <sgallagh> https://flock2016.sched.org/event/6yoy/modularity-why-where-we-are-and-how-to-get-involved
15:45:07 <langdon> ahh there its
15:45:10 <langdon> *it is
15:45:17 <sgallagh> Someone want to #link that?
15:45:19 <bconoboy> 11am wednesday
15:45:23 <mjwolf> yes I'm marking that on my schedule
15:45:31 <nirik> #link https://flock2016.sched.org/event/6yoy/modularity-why-where-we-are-and-how-to-get-involved
15:45:32 <langdon> we also were trying to get a workshop on how to build a module .. but we kinda dropped the ball on getting it scheduled :(
15:46:08 <sgallagh> langdon: If things continue in this vein, maybe that happens at the Pow Wow
15:46:29 * nirik nods
15:46:37 <langdon> sgallagh, sure.. (/me admits he is not entirely sure what all the events you were discussing were)
15:46:58 <bconoboy> https://flock2016.sched.org/event/76ol/server-sig-pow-wow
15:47:12 <bconoboy> friday from 1:30pm to 3:30pm
15:47:19 <sgallagh> langdon: There are two main Server sessions: the State of the Fedora Server Union, which is a recap of this year and a 50,000ft planning session for the next year
15:47:24 <langdon> oh.. that might be super tasty
15:47:39 <sgallagh> And the Pow Wow, which was meant to be a working session to kickstart the new year ideas.
15:47:41 <langdon> could we do a 20m session on "how to build a module"?
15:47:42 <bconoboy> it's good timing and a nice thick 2 hour session
15:47:58 <langdon> wait is it 3 or 2 slots?
15:48:39 <sgallagh> langdon: Two slots: https://flock2016.sched.org/event/76mM/state-of-the-fedora-server-union and https://flock2016.sched.org/event/76ol/server-sig-pow-wow
15:48:44 <bconoboy> Friday, August 5 • 13:30 - 15:30
15:48:54 <sgallagh> The first one is 50 minutes
15:48:56 <sgallagh> On Tuesday
15:49:13 <sgallagh> The second one is a workshop/hackfest on Friday
15:49:27 <langdon> ok.. but where is the 50k view for planning bit?
15:49:46 <sgallagh> the state of the union
15:49:58 <langdon> ahh gotcha..
15:50:02 <sgallagh> langdon: It starts with a recap and then goes into the 50k planning
15:50:23 <mjwolf> langdon: can you send me a few bullet points or a slide about it and I will include it in the state of the union address
15:50:28 <langdon> well.. if y'all like.. we could do a bit on how to build a module in the pow-wow.. we should be able to do it in 30m or less
15:50:39 <sgallagh> As for "How to build a module", mjwolf do you want to give the first 20 minutes of the Pow Wow to Langdon?
15:50:43 <mjwolf> otherwise I will go off of the notes from this meeting
15:50:53 <mjwolf> sure
15:51:02 <nirik> that sounds nice to me
15:51:12 <langdon> mjwolf, slide for what exactly? how i want modules for server or whatnot?
15:51:12 <mjwolf> if there werent other ideas we can let it keep going
15:51:29 <mjwolf> if there were other ideas at some point we can cut it off and discuss the other ideas
15:52:04 <mjwolf> langdon: how would you like me to introduce the modules idea at the 50k foot level to the server people
15:52:25 <langdon> mjwolf, ack.. ill see if i can build you something
15:52:34 <mjwolf> mjwolf@us.ibm.com
15:54:19 <mjwolf> ok any other subjects or do we call it a day?
15:55:04 <sgallagh> /me has nothing else
15:55:12 * nirik either
15:55:24 <mjwolf> ok.  thanks everyone.  It was a great discussion today
15:55:39 <sgallagh> mjwolf++
15:55:39 <zodbot> sgallagh: Karma for mjwolf changed to 1 (for the f24 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:55:40 <mjwolf> #endmeeting