16:00:22 <geppetto> #startmeeting fpc
16:00:22 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Sep  1 16:00:22 2016 UTC.  The chair is geppetto. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:22 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:22 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fpc'
16:00:22 <geppetto> #meetingname fpc
16:00:22 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fpc'
16:00:22 <geppetto> #topic Roll Call
16:00:41 <orionp> hello
16:00:54 <moto-timo> .hello ttorling
16:00:56 <zodbot> moto-timo: ttorling 'None' <TicoTimo@gmail.com>
16:01:16 <tibbs> Howdy.
16:01:23 <geppetto> #chair tibbs
16:01:23 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto tibbs
16:01:28 <geppetto> #chair orionp
16:01:28 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto orionp tibbs
16:02:10 <mbooth> hi
16:02:40 <geppetto> #chair mbooth
16:02:40 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto mbooth orionp tibbs
16:02:55 * limburgher is here
16:03:08 <geppetto> #chair limburgher
16:03:08 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto limburgher mbooth orionp tibbs
16:03:53 <geppetto> #chair racor
16:03:53 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto limburgher mbooth orionp racor tibbs
16:03:59 <tibbs> I have a hard stop at noon today, BTW.
16:04:07 <geppetto> noon?
16:04:25 <geppetto> isn't it noon in texas now?
16:04:33 <tibbs> Sorry, in 56 minutes.
16:04:37 * geppetto nods
16:04:42 <tibbs> It's 1104.
16:04:52 * geppetto nods
16:04:53 <Rathann> hi
16:04:56 <geppetto> #chair Rathann
16:04:56 <zodbot> Current chairs: Rathann geppetto limburgher mbooth orionp racor tibbs
16:05:07 <geppetto> We have no new tickets ... so should finish early
16:05:38 <geppetto> #topic Schedule
16:05:43 <geppetto> #info https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/packaging@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/ZM35ZMQ5OGMQE77EOHG4L4SOSKRIIKWP/
16:05:44 <limburgher> w00t
16:06:13 <geppetto> #topic #610  Packaging guidelines: Check upstream tarball signatures
16:06:16 <geppetto> .fpc 610
16:06:21 <zodbot> geppetto: #610 (Packaging guidelines: Check upstream tarball signatures) – fpc - https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/610
16:06:28 <geppetto> tibbs: Anything to talk about here?
16:06:31 <tibbs> The bits for this are still going in.  I'm just slow.
16:07:07 <tibbs> I have had so many problems with F24 and NFS (and selinux and....) that it's taken all of my time getting things stable.
16:07:19 * geppetto nods
16:08:16 <geppetto> Anything you want people to do or look at?
16:09:08 <tibbs> Not really right now, but I will post in the ticket when something has hit rawhide.
16:09:20 <moto-timo> +1
16:09:24 <geppetto> ok, cool
16:09:46 <geppetto> #topic #558  Application/Library distinction and package splitting
16:09:53 <geppetto> .fpc 558
16:09:54 <zodbot> geppetto: #558 (Application/Library distinction and package splitting) – fpc - https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/558
16:10:15 <tibbs> Another one I think I've forgotten about.
16:10:25 <tibbs> I think I promised a draft something like a year ago?
16:10:48 <geppetto> well 2 months ago
16:10:57 <tibbs> It's basically "This is an application.  Package it like an application.  This is a module.  Package it like a module."
16:11:15 <tibbs> With a bit more exposition.
16:11:30 * geppetto nods ... is it possible you could throw it to someone in the python sig?
16:11:32 <moto-timo> I'd just like to re-inforce bkabrda's comment that upstream recommends python = python2 and python3 = python3 if at all possible
16:11:53 <tibbs> Well, it's not really python-specific.
16:12:02 <tibbs> But that ticket is kind of a Frankenstein's monster.
16:12:09 * geppetto nods
16:12:15 <tibbs> moto-timo: I don't think that's something we even have in packaging guidelines.
16:12:40 <tibbs> Our guidelines are built around packages not having to care about what /usr/bin/python is.
16:12:50 <tibbs> It's not our decision as to when that changes.
16:12:56 <moto-timo> and ML has had a bunch of discussion recently on that
16:13:30 <geppetto> tibbs: I thought we had some test about that
16:14:09 <moto-timo> I reminded #fedora-python that this topic was on for today
16:14:13 <moto-timo> FWIW
16:14:13 <cstratak> moto-timo, although in the case that python is actually python3 is should be documented for users, at least that's what the upstream PEP talks about
16:14:33 <tibbs> Our stuff should always say that you _never_ use any of the unversioned macros or executables.
16:14:52 <tibbs> Where /usr/bin/python points should not change the behavior of any package in the system.
16:15:15 <moto-timo> No disagreement, thanks
16:15:17 <tibbs> Everything else really not our call.
16:15:25 <geppetto> We have: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Python#Naming
16:15:44 <geppetto> which is for the /usr/bin/binaries
16:16:02 <tibbs> Yeah, that's the part that's for "applications".
16:16:08 * geppetto nods
16:16:22 <moto-timo> python-sig wiki is getting reworked recently, maybe time to look at guidelines too
16:16:22 <tibbs> It's just that nothing anywhere says how someone should tell an application from a module.
16:16:38 <cstratak> and if anyone is interested to read upstream's recommendations:  https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/
16:16:42 <tibbs> I don't think we've stopped looking at python guidelines in the past two years.
16:17:05 <moto-timo> lol
16:17:26 <geppetto> I mean that's kind of true just on this ticket :)
16:17:28 <moto-timo> thank you cstratak for the link
16:18:17 <moto-timo> I have not been following along, I caught the stream because of the fpc announcement... (feeling out of touch)
16:18:27 <tibbs> I had some good discussion at Flock about this.
16:19:15 <tibbs> But anyway, for the ticket at hand, I (or anyone else, of course) just need to try to write up some ideas about distinguishing applications from modules (or whatever any particular language might call them).
16:19:42 <torsava> tibbs, you can use the Python RPM Porting guide as a ...guide: http://python-rpm-porting.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
16:20:13 <torsava> tibbs, It even has example spec files for all types of Python packages (modules, applications, ...)
16:20:14 <tibbs> Once that's in, we can pull that naming section up to a section specific to packaging python applications.
16:20:40 <moto-timo> +1
16:21:01 <tibbs> We already have a bunch of accumulated knowledge about this (well before python packaging was so horrible) but it was never written down.
16:21:18 <moto-timo> yep
16:21:32 <tibbs> Well before python packaging was even a thing, really.
16:21:56 <tibbs> None of it's specific to python.
16:22:23 <tibbs> Anyway, that's all I can say about the part of that ticket that I promised to work on.
16:22:43 <moto-timo> any actions then?
16:23:06 <tibbs> I do not understand what you are asking.
16:23:22 <moto-timo> are we asking someone to do something to move forward
16:23:25 <tibbs> I can reiterate my promise to work on something when I can get some time.
16:24:06 <tibbs> In the absence of a draft to consider I don't think there's anything else we can say.
16:24:35 <limburgher> Sadly, I agree.
16:24:35 <moto-timo> ok. clear enough. thanks
16:24:47 <geppetto> yeh
16:24:54 <geppetto> #topic Open Floor
16:25:03 <geppetto> Ok, anything else we want to talk about?
16:25:18 <tibbs> If F24 will stop causing me problems I should have more time to work on this next week.
16:25:27 <tibbs> That's a big "if", though.
16:25:32 <moto-timo> tibbs++
16:26:06 <Rathann> I don't have anything new today
16:26:12 <limburgher> Me neither.
16:26:18 <tibbs> Just a note that I've been fixing the guidelines up to use the %make_build and %make_install macros.
16:26:28 <limburgher> Awesome.
16:26:36 <tibbs> Since people found it confusing that we didn't do that consistently.
16:26:59 * geppetto nods ... seems good
16:27:08 <tibbs> Also someone pointed out that our guidelines for eclipse plugins are so ancient that they don't remotely work.
16:27:22 <moto-timo> ug.
16:27:36 <mbooth> tibbs: I am drafting new Eclipse guidelines
16:27:38 <tibbs> I don't know anything about Java, so....
16:27:42 <tibbs> Ah, sool.
16:27:45 <tibbs> cool.
16:28:07 <geppetto> same
16:28:15 <tibbs> I also removed the old GuidelinesTodo page, because it was hilarious.
16:28:17 <moto-timo> mbooth: I'd like to look at the draft
16:28:42 <tibbs> And I finished splitting Naming and Versioning, though I think I did that last week.  I can't even remember what day it is half the time.
16:28:51 <mbooth> moto-timo: Sure, I file a FPC ticket with a link to it
16:28:57 <moto-timo> awesome
16:28:59 <limburgher> I think there's a command for that. . .
16:32:12 <geppetto> ok, so if nobody speaks up I'll close in a minute or so
16:32:29 <tibbs> Thanks.  I'm distracted with another problem already....
16:32:39 <limburgher> Sounds like a plan.
16:32:48 * geppetto nods ... it's only the 1st of September :)
16:32:48 <moto-timo> thanks for enlilghtening the newcomer
16:32:59 <moto-timo> I'll try to come more often
16:34:13 <limburgher> moto-timo: thumbsup
16:34:29 <geppetto> moto-timo: cool, look forward to seeing you next week :)
16:35:12 <geppetto> #endmeeting