20:00:11 <rbergeron> #startmeeting Server Working Group Weekly Meeting (2016-09-20)
20:00:11 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Sep 20 20:00:11 2016 UTC.  The chair is rbergeron. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:00:11 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:00:11 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'server_working_group_weekly_meeting_(2016-09-20)'
20:00:23 <rbergeron> #meetingname ServerSIG
20:00:23 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'serversig'
20:00:32 <rbergeron> hey folks. gonna see who shows up today :)
20:00:35 <dperpeet> hey
20:00:42 <jds2001> rbergeron: im here
20:00:49 <dperpeet> we need 5 to meet quorum
20:00:50 <jds2001> rbergeron: not optimistic, though :D
20:00:58 <rbergeron> #chair #chair nirik adamw mhayden jds2001 mjwolf sgallagh dperpeet smooge vvaldez
20:00:58 <zodbot> Current chairs: #chair adamw dperpeet jds2001 mhayden mjwolf nirik rbergeron sgallagh smooge vvaldez
20:01:06 <rbergeron> well, i fail at copypasta, but oh well
20:01:10 <rbergeron> #topic Roll Call
20:01:12 <smooge> waaaat?
20:01:18 <jds2001> .hello jstanley
20:01:19 <smooge> I am here
20:01:19 <zodbot> jds2001: jstanley 'Jon Stanley' <jonstanley@gmail.com>
20:01:22 <rbergeron> jds2001: i am also unoptimistic, but whatevs
20:01:27 <jds2001> smooge: meeting time!
20:01:42 <dperpeet> .hello dperpeet
20:01:43 <zodbot> dperpeet: dperpeet 'None' <dperpeet@redhat.com>
20:01:58 <mjwolf> .hello mjwolf
20:01:59 <zodbot> mjwolf: mjwolf 'Michael Wolf' <mjwolf@us.ibm.com>
20:02:19 <jds2001> rbergeron: i trust that i'll see you in Brooklyn in a few weeks? :)
20:02:22 <rbergeron> we shall see :) I see a jsd2001, smooge, dperpeet, mjwolf thus far, which is four as far as i can count
20:02:31 * nirik is in the middle of a bunch of things, not sure I can pay much attention
20:02:46 <rbergeron> jds2001: absolutely, you should beep at me for details about gettogethers and such if you are not already in that loop
20:03:47 <rbergeron> okay, so nirik is here, or at least half-here, which is more or less a quorum inasmuch as i'm sure nirik will occasionally look to make sure we're not losing our minds here :)
20:04:11 <rbergeron> #info present: jds2001 smooge dperpeet mjwolf nirik
20:04:20 <rbergeron> #topic Outcomes
20:04:34 <rbergeron> So! when last y'all met...
20:04:38 <rbergeron> #link https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2016-09-13/serversig.2016-09-13-20.00.log.html
20:05:26 <rbergeron> I believe the agreement was -- "20:44:39 <sgallagh> #info We will focus on Outcomes that we expect to be able to have an effect on within one year (targeted at Flock 2017)"
20:05:56 <rbergeron> #info Brainstorm Outcomes that we expect to be able to have an effect on within one year (targeted at Flock 2017)
20:06:04 * rbergeron looks for anything else pertinent
20:06:48 <rbergeron> okay, i see not much else, but everyone is also welcome to add anything they'd like.
20:07:00 <rbergeron> And it seems like there's been not a heck of a lot of brainstorming on the list. So!
20:07:02 * jds2001 has not seen much on the list :(
20:07:09 <rbergeron> Given that there is now a mission and vision...
20:07:27 <rbergeron> #info Vision: Anyone should be able to confidently obtain, configure and deploy software services that address their needs using readily-available and trustworthy recipes.
20:07:38 <rbergeron> #info Mission: Fedora Server Edition is an ecosystem ideal for creating and operating validated service roles addressing most computing needs.
20:08:15 <rbergeron> ...what outcomes are, like, you know, useful / achievable / things people actually care to work on (that last part matters, lol)
20:08:35 <rbergeron> don't make me spin the wheel of fate to randomly select anyone to pipe up :)
20:08:37 <jds2001> so, for an outcome, how about something like: we have 3 roles deployable within 12 months.
20:08:38 <smooge> my firefox cache was eaten this morning. does anyone have the taiga page?
20:09:17 <dperpeet> jds2001, when would you consider a role deployed?
20:09:42 <dperpeet> bare bones <-> configured
20:10:05 <rbergeron> smooge: i do not. all these weird new things y'all have, lol
20:10:17 <jds2001> dperpeet: the latter ened of that
20:10:34 <dperpeet> yeah, I agree
20:10:51 <dperpeet> were you thinking about specific roles?
20:11:12 <jds2001> well, i dunno
20:11:15 <jds2001> what is in demand?
20:11:44 <smooge> the classics? printer, smtp, webserver
20:11:51 <jds2001> sugarcrm? wordpress? etc
20:11:56 <dperpeet> I would like to match that with my proposal to reduce the number of steps a user needs to deploy such a role ("It is easy to download, configure and install Fedora Server")
20:12:13 <jds2001> smooge: i was thinking higher level than those, but those work as well - you need them as foundational items
20:12:16 <rbergeron> has anyone (sorry, i don't even like to say these words, srsly) done anything crazy like "write user stories" or things like that?
20:12:40 <jds2001> rbergeron: i think we need to go there.
20:12:42 <smooge> we were waiting for you to say them
20:12:45 * rbergeron reminds folks that using #idea is a cool thing to do
20:12:54 <rbergeron> augh, you guys, don't make me be that person :)
20:13:10 <dperpeet> rbergeron, I have done some related work for Cockpit that has similar admin user stories
20:13:29 <rbergeron> dperpeet: i like that one -- i wonder if it would be useful to just think about basic things people might want to do
20:14:09 <dperpeet> I based my user stories loosely on the RHEL sysadmin course
20:14:15 <jds2001> "as an inexperienced linux admin, I should be able to easily deploy an instance of ______"
20:14:57 <rbergeron> as in: i want to download/configure/install the thing; routine maintenance functions (like, if you are an admin of a server that other humans use); maybe... "i would like to obtain a lamp stack" (or whatever. freeipa, nginx, hyperkitty, whatever)
20:14:58 <jds2001> dperpeet: i wouldnt want these folks to have to be sysadmins. We should take out that complexity.
20:15:09 <jds2001> have useful defaults that can be overridden.
20:15:32 <jds2001> rbergeron: exactly'
20:15:38 <dperpeet> jds2001, right, but I took those goals and made general goals such as "Clara want to run a file server in the office to share files between herself and her colleagues"
20:15:46 * nirik very much thinks we need to keep a freeipa role.
20:15:57 <nirik> we did persons a while back.
20:16:01 <rbergeron> dperpeet: can you retype your thing with the idea tag? /me likes credit where credit is due and all that
20:16:16 <nirik> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Server/Personas
20:16:33 <dperpeet> nirik, thanks for the link
20:16:37 <rbergeron> (or for ppl to be able to find you to ask you more without having to read the whole log)
20:17:00 <dperpeet> rbergeron, the idea in general or that specific one?
20:17:23 <rbergeron> man, i hope sandra summers, aka sysadmin macgyver, resident of brooklyn, is coming to ansiblefest
20:17:51 <nirik> she totally should!
20:17:54 <rbergeron> dperpeet: maybe that specific one? i mean... this is mostly a meeting to brainstorm ideas, not decide here today i don't think
20:18:18 <dperpeet> #idea Andy wants to run a file server in the office to share files between himself and his colleagues
20:19:51 <jds2001> #idea those files should be accessible via multiple operating systems.
20:19:54 <dperpeet> I don't want to take all the credit on that one, Andreas Nilsson cooks up most of the user stories for Cockpit
20:19:59 <rbergeron> dperpeet: oh, i meant maybe (or i guess also!) the "reduce the number of steps"
20:20:06 <dperpeet> rbergeron, aha!
20:20:25 <dperpeet> that makes more sense (and the idea is in the e-mail thread already)
20:20:27 <rbergeron> I think all of those are valiant goals
20:21:26 <dperpeet> #idea It is easy to download, configure and install Fedora Server for [role, e.g. setting up a fileserver]
20:22:17 <jds2001> #idea the role should be usable immediately upon installation of Fedora Server
20:22:38 <smooge> #idea Sage needs to send and receive emails for a small group.
20:22:39 <jds2001> #idea the roles should probably be deployable via kickstart???????
20:23:18 <jds2001> so we're good into deployment here.
20:23:27 <jds2001> what happens when the filesytem fills up?
20:24:14 <jds2001> your mailserver has been going forever, you never delete any email
20:24:24 <jds2001> soon you're not going to have room for more!
20:24:35 <rbergeron> jds2001: you could wrap ansible roles from galaxy into some pretty clicky interface upon booting and then you'd have like 500 already ;) (sure, 50 of those are nginx, whatever)
20:25:32 <rbergeron> jds2001: those roles could be associated with some sort of ongoing health-check / maintenance type of thing (check my buckets daily, send me a mail when my email buckets overfloweth, assocaited with the install my mailserver)
20:26:31 <rbergeron> #idea have "helper tools" for maintenance / health that go hand in hand with the thing being easily installed / deployed / etc.
20:26:35 <dperpeet> on that note, I think it would pay off to not let initial and ongoing setup/configuration diverge - I would rather see them become one eventually
20:27:19 <dperpeet> otherwise you have different workflows and stuff to maintain, where the actual use should be the same: "this server should share files"
20:27:40 <dperpeet> whether you decide that during setup or later on should be immaterial
20:27:53 * rbergeron nods
20:28:07 * jds2001 semi-nods
20:28:17 <jds2001> it should be there, but be separable.
20:28:40 <jds2001> we had a big long discussion about Ansible vs. Puppet vs. tool of the day
20:29:19 <dperpeet> of course this shouldn't stop automation
20:31:54 <rbergeron> jds2001: aye
20:32:41 <rbergeron> dperpeet: yes
20:33:02 <rbergeron> what other things? wordpress? webserver? i mean... all basic stuff
20:33:07 <rbergeron> freeipa
20:33:16 <jds2001> postgres?
20:33:27 <jds2001> (or more generically, database)
20:33:55 <dperpeet> all using containers?
20:34:05 <dperpeet> or is that up to the individual role?
20:34:07 <rbergeron> i mean there is definitely a thing to be said for "do we want lots of small components or stacks of functional stuff"
20:34:19 <jds2001> that should be up to the role
20:34:35 <dperpeet> I think rbergeron phrased what I wanted to get at better
20:34:38 <jds2001> rbergeron: stacks of functional stuff is better IMO
20:35:22 <jds2001> (at the Ansible level, you'd probably have a postgres role, etc)
20:35:32 <jds2001> but combine those into something useful
20:36:12 <jds2001> so the answer is both.
20:36:27 * rbergeron notes that in ansible galaxy (for example) the #1 downloaded role for fedora is redis; then a bunch of java / php tool type stuff, git, drupal-console, nginx, ntp, ansistrano-deploy, a bunch of stuff
20:36:29 <jds2001> if role A and B both require postgres, then that should be done in a uniform way
20:36:34 <smooge> rbergeron, I would like us to be able to show we can do common stuff before we jump down the rabbit hole of "here's your openstack role"
20:36:39 <rbergeron> jds2001: yeah, roles can depend on roles in ansible
20:36:47 <rbergeron> smooge: ain't touchin' that with a 28 foot pole, dear god
20:37:28 <jds2001> but the "top level" things that we advertise are the "useful roles" not the "infrastructure roles"
20:37:36 <smooge> or even "redis" because by the time we get it in place.. it will be no longer "cool" and people will be deploying monkeynuts
20:39:00 <jds2001> so redis is another thing that's an "infrastructure role"
20:39:14 <jds2001> no one says, "I want to do Redis!"
20:39:40 <jds2001> it's more of "I want to use an application, one of it's components is Redis! Cool!"
20:39:58 <smooge> ah ok. because all I hear people is say "I want to do Redis"...
20:40:22 <smooge> but I am a cranky dungeon dweller
20:40:27 <jds2001> redis is nothing more than a key/value store :)
20:40:43 <jds2001> it doesnt do much useful to an end-user :)
20:41:01 * jds2001 is oversimplifying redis, for all the redis fans out there :)
20:41:14 <smooge> so what things are useful to an end-user(s) that we can get running in a 4 month period?
20:41:26 <rbergeron> well -- i think the point is "we can make stuff" and we can decide that list all day long
20:41:55 <rbergeron> it's also entirely possible that if we figure out how to show people how to do it and give simple guidelines that maybe folks will just make the things they find useful and some of that may be useful to other folks too
20:42:03 <rbergeron> actually, maybe that's not the point
20:42:15 <rbergeron> but i think maybe that's a thing to think about
20:42:27 <rbergeron> along with "here are some obvious 5 things we shoudl probably do just to test the waters"
20:42:32 <jds2001> the point is "we can make a reference implementation"
20:42:47 <jds2001> rbergeron: most of the roles on galaxy i dont think were intended to be widely used
20:42:59 <rbergeron> and i'll point out that if it takes till next year at flock as an outcome to have 3 roles then we've definitely made it too complicated
20:43:04 <jds2001> a lot of them were, I guess - but there are things that are hardcoded that shouldn't be, etc.
20:43:21 <jds2001> rbergeron: so we need some sort of quality for our "official" roles
20:43:25 <jds2001> if that makes any sense.
20:43:37 <rbergeron> jds2001: meh, you'd be surprised -- particularly with geerlingguy's stuff, he's pretty committed to that kind of thing
20:43:50 <rbergeron> jds2001: so basically "need reference implementation" and "basic guidelines"
20:43:58 <jds2001> rbergeron: yep
20:44:07 <rbergeron> ..including probably some way for things to auto-test in fedora-land
20:44:15 <jds2001> rbergeron: maybe it's just the roles i've looked at :)
20:44:37 <rbergeron> jds2001: yeah, it's the wild wooly west in some ways, like most of those forge/supermarkets/galaxies are :)
20:44:55 <dperpeet> we can define roles all day, yet I still think it's also about how easy it is to set them up
20:45:12 <jds2001> right
20:45:14 <dperpeet> and also the flip side: how easy is it to develop and deliver for a role
20:45:21 <rbergeron> though we are working on improving it (and god willing get headcount) and open sourcing it as soon as i get a mail from fontana back, but i digress
20:45:33 <jds2001> no one should know what a playbook, inventory, role, etc *is*
20:45:57 <smooge> So if I were building an infrastructure for a small business/thing.. the usual things needed are: Backups, Identity Management and Web-storage
20:46:17 <dperpeet> jds2001 +1
20:46:36 <dperpeet> jds2001, to clarify: to use the stuff, they shouldn't need to know what they're called
20:47:00 <jds2001> dperpeet: right - i.e. they dont need to know the underlying technology if they don't want to.
20:47:47 <jds2001> # ansible-playbook -i inventory my-playbook.yml is proabably not the best UI :D
20:48:41 <jds2001> oh, i forgot he very likely needed -b :D
20:48:57 * jds2001 digresses.
20:49:31 <rbergeron> jds2001: when tower is open source you could just hand them that :p lol
20:49:34 <smooge> wonders what the opposite of #idea is.. what do people want from a server product these days when we are all supposed to do it all in cloud and phones?
20:49:54 <rbergeron> smooge: sudo make me a kubernetes cluster
20:50:01 <jds2001> rbergeron: tower is probably too much :/
20:50:15 <jds2001> rbergeron: i say that as someone that likes tower :)
20:50:29 <jds2001> (except the fact that it's not opensource.... :D)
20:51:04 <rbergeron> jds2001: call out to a known list and wrap a UI around it and say "which of these things do you want" and let it go to town is about all i can suggest
20:51:15 <jds2001> yeah
20:52:47 <rbergeron> which is mostly API magic and so forth
20:53:47 <rbergeron> i think it seems like there are some longer term "outcomes" ("be able to install stack-of-magic") and some shorter term things (define/suggest best practices/guidelines, have some prototypes, keep refining)
20:54:08 <rbergeron> and some of those things also probably interweave with the "need to establish some of this before we can think about the UI end of life"
20:54:39 * rbergeron isn't sure we came up with a lot in the meeting other than more questions but hey, brainstorming ftw?
20:56:26 <rbergeron> okay, anyone else have things to pipe in with? :)
20:56:27 <jds2001> brainstorming FTW!
20:56:34 <rbergeron> jds2001: totes
20:58:04 <smooge> not really
20:58:08 * jds2001 thinks we are done :)
20:58:11 <smooge> sorry I don't have anything else to tote
20:58:33 <smooge> we stormed some brains
20:59:52 <rbergeron> okay then.
21:00:05 <rbergeron> i shall wrap up the meeting then in a minute unless anyone else has moar to add
21:00:08 <rbergeron> :)
21:00:16 <dperpeet> I think we've done plenty of storming :)
21:00:17 * rbergeron salutes everyone and thanks them for coming and putting up with my meeting-running
21:00:32 <smooge> thank you so much rbergeron
21:00:34 <dperpeet> rbergeron, thanks for chairing the meeting!
21:00:37 <smooge> I thought i was going to have to run this
21:01:32 <rbergeron> dperpeet: no problemo, wrangler-less meetings make me sad and i kept seeing it in my inbox and i thought i'd come and uh... do things in fedora like a former fpl occasionally should :)
21:01:43 <dperpeet> :)
21:01:59 <rbergeron> #endmeeting