16:59:52 <geppetto> #startmeeting fpc
16:59:52 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Dec 15 16:59:52 2016 UTC.  The chair is geppetto. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:59:52 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:59:52 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fpc'
16:59:52 <geppetto> #meetingname fpc
16:59:52 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fpc'
16:59:52 <geppetto> #topic Roll Call
17:00:31 * limburgher here
17:01:06 <geppetto> #chair limburgher
17:01:06 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto limburgher
17:01:37 <geppetto> Uh, lots of people not on IRC
17:01:45 <tibbs> Hey, folks.  I'm at home with a cold but I'm around.
17:01:46 <geppetto> No new tickets though
17:01:50 <geppetto> #chair tibbs
17:01:50 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto limburgher tibbs
17:01:53 * geppetto nods
17:02:04 <ignatenkobrain> .hello
17:02:04 <zodbot> ignatenkobrain: (hello <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "hellomynameis $1".
17:02:40 <ignatenkobrain> .hello ignatenkobrain
17:02:41 <zodbot> ignatenkobrain: ignatenkobrain 'Igor Gnatenko' <ignatenko@redhat.com>
17:04:17 <tibbs> December in general is tough for meetings.
17:04:43 <geppetto> yeh, esp. the end
17:05:02 <geppetto> Not sure I'll make it next week, and def. not the week after
17:05:05 <limburgher> Yeah.
17:05:32 <geppetto> On the upside, everyone else is busy too … so no new tickets :)
17:05:42 <limburgher> I can probably to next week, but I imagine that attendance will be so light that we shouldn't sweat it.
17:05:46 <Rathann> hi
17:05:52 * limburgher waves
17:08:03 <geppetto> #chair Rathann
17:08:03 <zodbot> Current chairs: Rathann geppetto limburgher tibbs
17:08:05 <geppetto> hey
17:10:01 <Rathann> no quorum yet, huh
17:10:18 <ignatenkobrain> =(
17:10:44 <ignatenkobrain> I made updates for guidelines stuck for 2 months and now you say no quorum ;)
17:11:06 <ignatenkobrain> btw, how many people is needed for quorum?
17:11:08 <limburgher> 5
17:11:09 <Rathann> 5
17:11:12 <geppetto> ignatenkobrain: think of it as a reverse xmas present
17:11:36 <tibbs> Not really sure what you expected at holiday time.
17:11:47 <ignatenkobrain> tibbs: it's not yet holiday time ;)
17:12:04 <ignatenkobrain> holidays starting from next week
17:12:17 <Rathann> that doesn't mean people aren't out shopping
17:12:22 <Rathann> especially in the EU
17:12:32 <limburgher> In the U.S., the December holiday season begins somewhere between January and June.
17:12:55 <ignatenkobrain> limburgher: heh, in russia partially same
17:12:56 <geppetto> ha
17:13:11 <ignatenkobrain> 1-10 of Jan is the NY holidays
17:14:27 <tibbs> Might get tomspur at 40 past.  And we can always talk about things.
17:14:47 <geppetto> Everyone want to wait around until then?
17:15:05 <limburgher> I can.
17:15:27 <tibbs> I'm here regardless.
17:17:15 <Rathann> I'm reviewing ignatenkobrain's patches
17:17:49 <Rathann> ignatenkobrain: I like the new macro names (with vpath)
17:17:57 <ignatenkobrain> Rathann: everything for you ;)
17:18:20 <Rathann> but I don't like your tendency to mix cosmetic and functional changes in one commit (e.g. https://src.fedoraproject.org/cgit/rpms/pitivi.git/commit/?id=9252c9b41cf3f1f227a58d40a0de065e3eed2391)
17:18:37 <Rathann> makes it harder to see what's actually changed
17:18:59 <ignatenkobrain> yeah, I know. Sorry for that. When I realized that I commited everything at once was hard to split things
17:19:20 <limburgher> I'll take it up with his sponsor.
17:19:43 <tibbs> I don't care in general, but if that's supposed to be used as an example then the other changes get in the way of that.
17:19:46 * limburgher sends self sternly worded email
17:20:31 <ignatenkobrain> tibbs: it was not example, it was something what I had to do, because people are don't care about *FLAGS and such stuff
17:20:32 <Rathann> ignatenkobrain: if you realized after committing then there was still time to amend the commits before pushing
17:20:55 <ignatenkobrain> because they don't know that there is some macro exist
17:21:01 <Rathann> but that's orthogonal to the meson guidelines
17:21:28 <ignatenkobrain> Rathann: what do you mean?
17:21:37 <ignatenkobrain> limburgher: hehe
17:22:46 <Rathann> ignatenkobrain: one thing is still confusing a bit (to someone who doesn't know anything about ninja and meson)
17:22:59 <ignatenkobrain> tell me and I will fix it
17:23:40 <Rathann> you speak of Meson in one sentence and of ninja in the next as if they're the same thing, but are they? it's not explained anywhere
17:24:25 <Rathann> a one sentence explanation of the relationship between the two would help a lot
17:24:52 <ignatenkobrain> oops
17:24:55 <ignatenkobrain> you mean this one: This document provides best-practices for usage of ninja in packaging RPMs for Fedora.
17:25:05 <ignatenkobrain> I copy-pasted it from ninja page, meh
17:25:30 <Rathann> there's a link to https://ninja-build.org/ as well
17:25:38 <ignatenkobrain> I will write one line what meson is and what's the difference between meson and ninja
17:25:49 <Rathann> ok
17:25:56 <Rathann> I'm +1 once that's done
17:26:00 * ignatenkobrain does
17:26:51 <Rathann> also, you should do s/__builddir/_vpath_builddir/g I guess
17:27:04 <Rathann> in the example spec
17:27:34 <Rathann> and the macro descriptions above it
17:29:16 <ignatenkobrain> thought I did
17:29:29 <ignatenkobrain> ah I see
17:31:02 <ignatenkobrain> This document provides best-practices for usage of The Meson Build System  in packaging RPMs for Fedora. Meson is a buildsystem like automake (it  generates code for make) which can generate code for some of low-level  buildsystems, primary one is ninja (but you should not care since macro does everything for you).
17:31:25 * ignatenkobrain always had problem with writing such text
17:31:48 <Rathann> not bad
17:32:05 <Rathann> I'd drop the part in parentheses and rephrase the end of the sentence:
17:32:38 <Rathann> ... generate code for lower-level build systems, for example ninja(link).
17:33:02 <tibbs> Don't worry too much about it.  I can clean up grammar and such, but I need the factual info to be there in some form because I don't want to have to make things up.
17:33:11 <Rathann> exactly
17:33:30 <Rathann> #chair orionp
17:33:30 <zodbot> Current chairs: Rathann geppetto limburgher orionp tibbs
17:33:37 <Rathann> and then there were five...
17:33:38 <orionp> hello
17:33:43 <geppetto> woo
17:34:04 <Rathann> orionp: we've been discussing https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/655
17:34:05 <ignatenkobrain> Rathann: I just wanted to highlight that it's important to use %meson_install instead of %ninja_install, because in theory it could change
17:34:09 <Rathann> since ignatenkobrain is here
17:34:17 <geppetto> #topic Schedule
17:34:19 <Rathann> ignatenkobrain: that's fine
17:34:19 <geppetto> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/packaging@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/K54GXHASHPYICMY442SY5UTSPN2RVVU2/
17:34:57 <Rathann> ignatenkobrain: but you should actually write what you just said instead of "you should not care because macro does everythin"
17:35:02 <geppetto> So 655 first?
17:35:08 <geppetto> #topic #655  meson buildsystem guidelines
17:35:11 <geppetto> .fpc 655
17:35:13 <zodbot> geppetto: #655 (meson buildsystem guidelines) – fpc - https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/655
17:35:29 <Rathann> I'm +1 with the changes we've just discussed
17:35:46 <ignatenkobrain> done
17:36:15 <Rathann> great
17:37:22 <Rathann> ah, one small nit-pick: the example spec has libangelscript.so in %{_libdir}, which is actually non-compliant (SO version is missing)
17:37:53 <Rathann> but we can fix that while writing it up into the official guidelines
17:38:03 <ignatenkobrain> I just didn't want to write whole spec file
17:38:10 <ignatenkobrain> but easy to fix
17:38:37 <orionp> are there changes to the draft that were discussed on irc that aren't written up yet?
17:38:50 <Rathann> orionp: just check the latest version
17:38:52 <Rathann> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/Meson
17:40:18 <ignatenkobrain> anyhow, fixed
17:40:23 <geppetto> _vpath_source doesn't normally need to be overridden, right?
17:40:43 <Rathann> cool, I'm still +1
17:40:52 <ignatenkobrain> geppetto: in 99% of cases
17:40:58 <ignatenkobrain> same as for _vpath_builddir
17:41:07 <tibbs> Is it actually _vpath_scredir ?
17:41:20 <tibbs> With the 'e' in "srcedir"?
17:41:24 * Rathann guesses it's a typo
17:41:36 <orionp> I'm +1
17:41:38 <Rathann> ignatenkobrain is known for typos ;)
17:41:48 <geppetto> yeh, no typo in the example
17:41:57 <ignatenkobrain> can't find srcedir
17:42:03 <ignatenkobrain> ah
17:42:04 <ignatenkobrain> I see
17:42:09 <Rathann> :D
17:42:20 <ignatenkobrain> fxd
17:42:22 <geppetto> Can we add a tiny bit of wording then saying that the _vath dirs. normally won't be overridden?
17:42:30 <tibbs> Thanks.
17:42:33 <geppetto> Or maybe a comment in the example?
17:42:53 <ignatenkobrain> geppetto: I think for this we should write some small page / section about _vpath_*
17:43:02 <ignatenkobrain> because since it's going to rh-rpm-config
17:43:10 <ignatenkobrain> it can be used in other buildsystems
17:43:27 * geppetto nods … fair enough
17:43:33 <ignatenkobrain> cmake and autotools supports it very good (not sure about latter one)
17:43:49 <geppetto> I'm +1
17:43:53 <ignatenkobrain> Unfortunately I don't know best place for describing this 2 variables
17:44:23 <tibbs> We can worry about the proper place once something else actually makes use of them.
17:45:26 <tibbs> We would just remove mention of _vpath* from this document and replace with a note like "These macros support _vpath_whatever as described at <URL>".
17:47:09 <geppetto> Sounds good to me
17:47:23 <Rathann> +1
17:47:55 <geppetto> So still at +3, atm
17:47:56 <ignatenkobrain> yep
17:48:05 <tibbs> +1
17:48:06 <limburgher> +1
17:48:29 <geppetto> #chair
17:48:29 <zodbot> Current chairs: Rathann geppetto limburgher orionp tibbs
17:48:35 <geppetto> Ok, that's eveyrone
17:48:40 <geppetto> #action meson buildsystem guidelines (+1:5, 0:0, -1:0)
17:49:00 <tibbs> I may add a comment to the example spec to say you won't normally need to override _vpath_srcdir when I do the writeup.
17:49:26 * geppetto nods
17:50:06 <tibbs> Will, of course, also add a link from the main guidelines.
17:50:50 <geppetto> #topic #665  SSLCertificateHandling policy update
17:50:53 <geppetto> .fpc 665
17:50:55 <zodbot> geppetto: #665 (SSLCertificateHandling policy update) – fpc - https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/665
17:51:02 <tibbs> Any more changes going to happen before I move that draft into place?
17:54:21 <tibbs> OK, it's live at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Meson
17:54:54 <orionp> great
17:54:55 <tibbs> Will do some minor tweaks but at least it's there now.
17:54:56 <geppetto> cool
17:55:57 <ignatenkobrain> tibbs++
17:55:57 <zodbot> ignatenkobrain: Karma for tibbs changed to 3 (for the f25 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:56:26 <Rathann> 665 is a bit messy
17:56:55 <Rathann> for example, the whole https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/Pkcs11Support#How_to_specify_a_specific_smart_card.2FHSM seems to be almost the same as the first sentence of the next section
17:57:57 <tibbs> I have never really been able to comprehend this guideline.
17:58:28 * ignatenkobrain didn't read whole ticket, but this page doesn't give me as for packager anything what I could use
17:58:29 <Rathann> maybe it's obvious to someone else, but there's no explanation in what scenarios an application would want/need to specify a smart card/HSM (and not a certificate stored on it)
17:59:20 <ignatenkobrain> or, I might be not experienced enough
18:01:05 <geppetto> Well I don't think anyone here has a pkcs11 smart card, right?
18:01:14 <geppetto> So experience is going to be limited :(
18:02:13 <tibbs> I think the only reason the existing page is there is because we all just collectively said that we had no idea.
18:02:17 <Rathann> well there are software-defined HSMs
18:03:04 <Rathann> softhsm is packaged for Fedora
18:04:21 <Rathann> sadly, nmav is not online
18:04:26 <geppetto> tibbs: yeh, I did get david to read through it … and he said it looked fine
18:04:47 <Rathann> geppetto: David who?
18:04:58 <geppetto> dwmw2
18:05:02 <Rathann> ah
18:05:07 <smdeep> .nextmeetings
18:05:07 <zodbot> smdeep: One moment, please...  Looking up the channel list.
18:05:10 <zodbot> smdeep: In #fedora-meeting is Fedora UK Ambassadors (starting in 2 hours)
18:05:13 <zodbot> smdeep: In #fedora-meeting is Magazine editorial board (starting in 3 hours)
18:05:16 <zodbot> smdeep: In #fedora-zh is Chinese (starting in 18 hours)
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18:05:23 <zodbot> smdeep: In #fedora-meeting-2 is Fedora Ambassadors Latam Meeting (starting in 2 days)
18:05:25 <Rathann> smdeep: please use /query zodbot next time
18:05:38 <Rathann> you're disturbing the ongoing meeting
18:05:39 <geppetto> smdeep: You can /msg zodbot
18:05:52 <smdeep> Rathann, I apologize, my bad
18:09:09 <geppetto> I think https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:SSLCertificateHandling#Help should be neat the top as a summary or something,  But rationale is kind of similar too
18:09:14 <Rathann> I think we should ask nmav to provide diffs by splitting the current page and showing diffs between the relevant changed parts
18:09:28 <geppetto> We asked that last time
18:09:48 <Rathann> we did but he doesn't seem to know how
18:09:58 * geppetto nods
18:10:25 <geppetto> Just saying we'll/someone probably needs to give him some help if we want a better answer
18:11:04 <tibbs> He also didn't seem to find the various questions we asked in the actual meeting minutes, so perhaps he needs links to the lines where questions were asked.
18:11:32 <geppetto> yeh, I guess he didn't notice the link to the full log?
18:12:03 <tibbs> I can try to construct a diffable page, though instructions for doing that are in the wiki page that tells you how to submit change requests.
18:12:57 <Rathann> ok, let's table and move on
18:13:19 * geppetto nods
18:14:05 <geppetto> #topic Open Floor
18:14:10 <ignatenkobrain> geppetto: tibbs: Rathann: btw, who & when will apply patch for redhat-rpm-config? Need to know this before applying meson's patch.
18:14:16 <geppetto> I don't think any of the other older tickets have moved
18:14:34 <tibbs> ignatenkobrain: I can do that.
18:15:21 <tibbs> Is that in a bugzilla ticket somewhere?  If not, let me know where the patch actially is.
18:16:01 <ignatenkobrain> tibbs: it's in the ticket
18:16:15 <ignatenkobrain> https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/attachment/ticket/655/0001-add-VPATH-macro.patch
18:17:04 <tibbs> OK, that's the final patch?  Don't want to be accused of not being transparent or anything like that.
18:17:42 <tibbs> It came in after I got sick so I didn't notice.
18:17:45 <ignatenkobrain> tibbs: until we have section in guidelines describing how you use this variables I think it's enough
18:18:05 <ignatenkobrain> I've seen it's common practice to put some link to guidelines before macro
18:19:52 <tibbs> This is just internal stuff; it's not a huge deal.  I'll commit it soon.  What branches wil need this?
18:21:18 <ignatenkobrain> f24+ and if possible el7
18:21:53 <tibbs> Ah, el7 will need to go on epel-rpm-macros.  Not a problem, though.
18:21:53 <ignatenkobrain> since el7 supports python3, meson can be included there (but at this moment I build it only in COPR)
18:22:10 <ignatenkobrain> s/el7/epel7/
18:22:59 <tibbs> I'll get them all in and into bodhi, but you'll want to look for those updates and add your meson packages so everything goes through at the same time.
18:23:43 <ignatenkobrain> tibbs: I can attach meson builds into updates, just give me links once you done
18:23:58 <ignatenkobrain> thanks!
18:24:09 <tibbs> Let's hope I can actually do packaging work.
18:26:08 <limburgher> We still seem to be tomspur-less.
18:27:28 <tibbs> We got stuff done anyway.
18:27:56 * geppetto nods
18:27:57 <limburgher> Indeed.
18:28:22 <geppetto> Ok, I'll close at half past, unless anyone shouts
18:28:47 <geppetto> Have a good holiday, if I don't see you again.
18:29:03 <tibbs> Likewise.
18:30:24 <geppetto> #endmeeting