17:00:30 <yzhang> #startmeeting fedora_atomic_wg
17:00:31 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jun 14 17:00:30 2017 UTC.  The chair is yzhang. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:31 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:31 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_atomic_wg'
17:00:42 <yzhang> #topic Roll Call
17:00:54 <yzhang> .hello yzhang
17:00:55 <zodbot> yzhang: yzhang 'Yu Qi Zhang' <jzehrarnyg@gmail.com>
17:01:41 <jberkus> .hello jberkus
17:01:42 <yzhang> rather quiet today
17:01:42 <zodbot> jberkus: jberkus 'Josh Berkus' <josh@agliodbs.com>
17:02:03 <dustymabe> .hello dustymaber
17:02:04 <zodbot> dustymabe: Sorry, but you don't exist
17:02:05 <dustymabe> sigh
17:02:08 <mnguyen> .hello mnguyen
17:02:10 <dustymabe> .hello dustymabe
17:02:11 <zodbot> mnguyen: mnguyen 'Michael Nguyen' <mnguyen@redhat.com>
17:02:13 <zodbot> dustymabe: dustymabe 'Dusty Mabe' <dustymabe@redhat.com>
17:02:15 <yzhang> there was an attempt
17:02:20 <ksinny> .hello sinnykumari
17:02:21 <zodbot> ksinny: sinnykumari 'Sinny Kumari' <ksinny@gmail.com>
17:02:23 <dustymabe> trishnag: hi
17:02:26 * trishnag lurks
17:02:26 <dustymabe> ksinny: hi :)
17:02:32 <ksinny> dustymabe: Hi
17:02:37 <trishnag> hi dustymabe :)
17:03:00 <walters> .hello walters
17:03:01 <zodbot> walters: walters 'Colin Walters' <walters@redhat.com>
17:03:14 <jbrooks> .hello jasonbrooks
17:03:15 <zodbot> jbrooks: jasonbrooks 'Jason Brooks' <JBROOKS@REDHAT.COM>
17:03:22 <yzhang> #chair yzhang dustymabe mnguyen ksinny jberkus walters jbrooks
17:03:22 <zodbot> Current chairs: dustymabe jberkus jbrooks ksinny mnguyen walters yzhang
17:03:28 * jbrooks in another mtg
17:03:49 <rubao> .hello rubao
17:03:50 <zodbot> rubao: rubao 'rubao' <rubao.net@hotmail.com>
17:03:59 <dustymabe> rubao: \o/ - welcome
17:04:02 <yzhang> oh wow you have a fas account o.o
17:04:06 <yzhang> #chair rubao
17:04:06 <zodbot> Current chairs: dustymabe jberkus jbrooks ksinny mnguyen rubao walters yzhang
17:04:10 <jberkus> apologies, double-timing until 10:30, so will be laggy
17:04:26 <yzhang> #topic Action items from last meeting
17:04:35 <yzhang> dustymabe to propose a VFAD for wiki and docs discussion
17:04:35 <yzhang> * maxamillion to update container guidelines to enforce ENV and label
17:04:35 <yzhang> maintainer usage https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/277
17:05:17 <yzhang> dustymabe: hows the VFAD proposal going
17:05:17 <dustymabe> #action dustymabe to propose a VFAD for wiki and docs discussion
17:05:22 <dustymabe> yzhang: not done
17:05:31 <yzhang> gotcha
17:06:01 <yzhang> maxamillion probably in another meeting
17:06:07 <yzhang> I guess we can come back to him once he joins?
17:06:12 <dustymabe> yeah re-action for now
17:06:23 <dustymabe> #action maxamillion to update container guidelines to enforce ENV and label maintainer usage https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/277
17:06:35 <yzhang> moving on
17:06:45 <adamw> dustymabe: what's up?
17:06:59 <dustymabe> adamw: there is a meeting item we have that i'd like you to be here for
17:06:59 <yzhang> to tickets
17:07:05 <dustymabe> if you don't mind
17:07:09 <dustymabe> i'll ping you when we get to it
17:07:10 <trishnag> quick info: This is on progress https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/273 . sorry to keep this hanging for long.
17:07:28 <dustymabe> trishnag: thanks for the update
17:07:29 <jberkus> dustymabe: I think Adam updated the guidelines
17:07:40 <yzhang> maxamillion: welcome
17:07:45 <adamw> rgr
17:07:45 <yzhang> #chair trishnag mailga
17:07:45 <zodbot> Current chairs: dustymabe jberkus jbrooks ksinny mailga mnguyen rubao trishnag walters yzhang
17:07:46 <maxamillion> thanks
17:07:47 <yzhang> whoops
17:07:50 <yzhang> #chair maxamillion
17:07:50 <zodbot> Current chairs: dustymabe jberkus jbrooks ksinny mailga maxamillion mnguyen rubao trishnag walters yzhang
17:07:50 <maxamillion> .hello maxamillion
17:07:51 <zodbot> maxamillion: maxamillion 'Adam Miller' <maxamillion@gmail.com>
17:08:00 <yzhang> mis-ping my bad
17:08:14 <dustymabe> :)
17:08:15 <yzhang> maxamillion: how goes:  maxamillion to update container guidelines to enforce ENV and label maintainer usage https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/277
17:08:32 <maxamillion> bah
17:08:33 <maxamillion> I forgot
17:08:35 <maxamillion> I'll do that today
17:08:46 <yzhang> ok, we re-actioned it for now
17:08:49 <maxamillion> yzhang: thanks
17:09:06 <yzhang> ok, moving on to tickets
17:09:16 <yzhang> #topic clarify policy on atomic host support for older Fedora "number" releases
17:09:16 <dustymabe> #chair jlebon
17:09:16 <zodbot> Current chairs: dustymabe jberkus jbrooks jlebon ksinny mailga maxamillion mnguyen rubao trishnag walters yzhang
17:09:21 <yzhang> #link https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/228
17:09:41 <jberkus> so, that's done, no?
17:09:45 <yzhang> Is there anything more to do after that blog post
17:09:50 <yzhang> Or can we close it
17:09:51 <jberkus> except for approval by the Council
17:09:54 <dustymabe> jberkus: i think so mostly - jbrooks was also going to do a fedmag post
17:10:00 <dustymabe> we want to make sure we reach both audiences
17:10:07 <jbrooks> dustymabe, I've got a draft in there
17:10:33 <dustymabe> jbrooks: have you received any feedback?
17:10:44 <jberkus> oh, speaking of which, there's been no feedback from teh council, let me move that forwards
17:11:03 <maxamillion> jberkus: +1
17:11:05 <yzhang> Want me to action that jberkus
17:11:09 <yzhang> as a reminder
17:11:20 <jbrooks> dustymabe, I haven't, done know if I've looked in the right place / done it right
17:11:26 <jberkus> lemme check the issue, will get update before the end of the meeting
17:11:40 <yzhang> alright
17:11:41 <dustymabe> jbrooks: ping me after meeting - i can help
17:11:48 <jbrooks> ok
17:11:55 <miabbott> .hello miabbott
17:11:56 <zodbot> miabbott: miabbott 'Micah Abbott' <miabbott@redhat.com>
17:12:00 <yzhang> #chair miabbott
17:12:00 <zodbot> Current chairs: dustymabe jberkus jbrooks jlebon ksinny mailga maxamillion miabbott mnguyen rubao trishnag walters yzhang
17:12:14 <dustymabe> #info waiting on fedora magazine blog post in order to close this ticket
17:12:16 <jberkus> is pagure down?
17:12:36 <yzhang> seems like it
17:12:40 <yzhang> good think I already have everything open
17:12:45 <trishnag> works for me
17:12:54 <ksinny> works for me as well
17:12:59 <yzhang> oh we're back
17:13:22 <walters> #chair clint eastwood
17:13:22 <zodbot> Current chairs: clint dustymabe eastwood jberkus jbrooks jlebon ksinny mailga maxamillion miabbott mnguyen rubao trishnag walters yzhang
17:13:22 <yzhang> anyways we'll leave this ticket open then, moving on unless there are objections
17:13:30 <yzhang> dang it walters
17:14:00 <yzhang> don't inflate our numbers
17:14:08 <yzhang> #topic fedimg: don't use 'builder' instance for uploading AMIs
17:14:15 <miabbott> hehe
17:14:16 <yzhang> #link https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/269
17:14:21 <yzhang> I don't think sayan is here
17:14:36 <yzhang> I suppose we just wait for him to update?
17:14:54 <dustymabe> pretty much
17:14:58 <jberkus> so, I think our PRD and versions policy are approved by the Council
17:15:02 <jberkus> awaiting verification
17:15:37 <yzhang> keep us updated
17:15:45 <yzhang> moving on
17:15:48 <jberkus> put an action in for next week
17:15:55 <yzhang> ok
17:15:58 <jberkus> #action jberkus to update wg on final approval of PRD
17:16:10 <yzhang> #topic talk/workshop proposals for Flock
17:16:31 <yzhang> #link https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/279
17:16:46 <dustymabe> so we've made some progress on this - i'll update my sessions with abstracts today and submit them
17:16:58 <dustymabe> please add notes to the ticket when you've submitted your sessions
17:17:10 <yzhang> jbrooks and I have a draft for our proposal
17:17:19 <yzhang> feel free to review
17:17:30 <yzhang> as a reminder I think the submission deadline is tomorrow?
17:17:42 <yzhang> jberkus maxamillion how goes your sesions
17:17:46 <yzhang> sessions*
17:17:55 <dustymabe> the original submission deadline is tomorrow - i don't know if they moved it back or not
17:17:56 <maxamillion> mine's submitted and the one we're joint on jberkus was submitting
17:18:08 <jberkus> ooops, thanks.  we have a description, I was submitting and ran into a timeout last night
17:18:11 <jberkus> will resubmit today
17:18:14 <maxamillion> jberkus: +1
17:18:37 <jberkus> do we want to do a doc workshop for Fedora Atomic docs?
17:18:43 <jberkus> or is the VFAD plenty?
17:19:11 <dustymabe> jberkus: i don't know - i think the VFAD could be more 'organizational'
17:19:32 <dustymabe> while a workshop for docs could be 'actually create docs for stuff we've identified'
17:20:11 <yzhang> speaking of which, do you need to register before you submit a session
17:20:19 <dustymabe> i really think we still need someone to curate docs - i.e. someone tells me, hey we need some docs on kickstart. i give them a text file with commands or a screencast showing how to do it. they create some pretty docs
17:20:58 <dustymabe> i can spit content out all day long, but formatting and placing it where it needs to go is a different story
17:21:16 <yzhang> well its not on the issue, does anyone want to submit that talk?
17:21:20 <jberkus> dustymabe: that would assume that we can have the VFAD before Flock
17:21:21 <trishnag> When is the VFAD getting planned for wiki/Docs?
17:21:28 <jberkus> I can submit it if we're ready to do it
17:21:35 <dustymabe> jberkus: i think we can have the VFAD before flock
17:21:38 <yzhang> trishnag: its still in planning
17:21:46 <dustymabe> if we don't then we'll just have the VFAD at flock
17:21:47 <dustymabe> :)
17:22:02 <yzhang> its just a FAD then
17:22:05 <trishnag> ACK.
17:22:07 <yzhang> IRLFAD
17:22:09 <jberkus> trishnag, dustymabe: the prerequisite is having the CI and publication pipeline working
17:22:10 <maxamillion> :)
17:22:17 <jberkus> which is *possible*, but it's not done
17:22:56 <dustymabe> jberkus: is there a ticket tracking that work?
17:22:57 <trishnag> jberkus: +1 to publication :)
17:23:26 <jberkus> dustymabe: kinda-sorta.  could use a reboot.  this will be tracked on github
17:23:44 <jberkus> #action jberkus to create new issues, specs for docs.projectatomic.io publication
17:23:59 <dustymabe> jberkus: would be nice to have a ticket in our atomic-wg tracker just for visibility maybe?
17:24:12 <trishnag> +1
17:24:19 <jberkus> OK, but I'm not going to match ticket-for-ticket
17:24:30 <jberkus> that's just insane ...
17:24:32 <dustymabe> jberkus: sure, links to other tickets are fine
17:24:43 <dustymabe> i've done that quite a bit
17:24:56 <dustymabe> it's a trail of crumbs basically
17:25:03 <dustymabe> but we always have one starting point
17:25:12 <trishnag> or we can just create ticket here: https://github.com/projectatomic/atomic-host-docs/issues
17:25:28 <trishnag> maintaining this on both pagure and github is hard :)
17:25:32 <dustymabe> trishnag: something else to track, and that doesn't go to a mailing list
17:26:05 <yzhang> So back to the topic, do we feel ready to do a docs workshop?
17:26:42 * dustymabe yields to jberkus
17:27:15 <jberkus> it would give us a deadline.  and I finally have design help for the HTML/CSS
17:27:24 <jberkus> so that's +
17:27:49 <trishnag> dustymabe: ok.
17:27:59 <jberkus> the main risk is that I'm up for jury duty soon
17:28:12 <jberkus> so if I get picked, I'll need others to put in more work
17:28:20 <jberkus> but seems like a good idea
17:28:27 <jberkus> however ... when will we hold the VFAD?
17:29:12 <yzhang> soon™
17:29:26 <dustymabe> haha - i'm thinking after Fedora 26 release
17:29:47 <jberkus> when's that?
17:29:56 <dustymabe> 2nd week of july i think
17:30:09 <jberkus> well, I'll know by then about jury duty
17:30:15 <jberkus> can we plan on the last week of July?
17:30:16 * dustymabe has a lot of stuff in flight before then
17:30:22 <dustymabe> sounds reasonable to me
17:30:46 <yzhang> Should we put that in an existing ticket somewhere
17:30:56 <dustymabe> yzhang: there is no ticket yet :)
17:30:57 <jberkus> is there a ticket?
17:31:04 <yzhang> Also, please update the ticket for the existing talks once they've been submitted
17:31:09 <jberkus> #action create ticket to plan docs VFAD
17:31:10 <dustymabe> haha - haven't proposed it yet, but have done a good job of alluding to it
17:31:31 <yzhang> I think we're mostly in consensus about this topic
17:31:48 <yzhang> moving on
17:31:57 <yzhang> #topic Fedora 26 Atomic/Cloud Test Day
17:32:04 <yzhang> #link https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/280
17:32:34 <yzhang> looks like the planning is mostly done
17:33:12 <yzhang> do we have anything else to talk about?
17:33:14 * ksinny will be participating in Test Day
17:33:22 <yzhang> paging roshi
17:33:31 <dustymabe> roshi is AFK today
17:33:33 <dustymabe> i have an update
17:33:47 <dustymabe> #info test day is on the 20th - dusty will be publishing blog post on fedmag soon
17:33:59 <dustymabe> i have the post written up, just have to send it over for review
17:34:19 <dustymabe> quick question though - do we have any wiki page like https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud_SIG for the atomic wg?
17:34:58 <yzhang> don't think so?
17:35:01 <maxamillion> dustymabe: not to the best of my knowledge, no
17:35:15 <dustymabe> i guess i'll create one - wanted to link to it from the post
17:35:22 <maxamillion> dustymabe: +1
17:35:24 <dustymabe> ok EOM for this ticket
17:35:27 <jberkus> #action dustymabe to create SIG page for wiki
17:35:34 <trishnag> dustymabe: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Atomic
17:36:01 <yzhang> ok I think we're moving on
17:36:04 <yzhang> #topic Atomic Host images omit many common locales that all other flavors include
17:36:05 <dustymabe> trishnag: there's also https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud, which is different than CloudSIG
17:36:12 <yzhang> #link https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/282
17:36:19 <trishnag> ah yes
17:36:21 <dustymabe> adamw: wanted to include you for this ticket
17:36:22 <yzhang> dustymabe: you just added the link
17:36:30 <adamw> aha
17:36:40 <dustymabe> walters and jlebon are here too i think
17:36:53 <dustymabe> what's a good solution to this problem?
17:37:18 <adamw> fwiw, the obvious impact of this is that if you run the atomic host installer in Canada, you get a bunch of locale errors every time you boot up. though apparently there's a change in hand to have the installer not use locales that aren't available in the installed system, somehow.
17:37:56 <dustymabe> adamw: is there a link to that change somewhere?
17:38:03 <adamw> let me see if i can find it again
17:38:58 <jberkus> adamw: huh what?  why would the locales not be available?
17:39:14 <adamw> i believe https://github.com/rhinstaller/anaconda/pull/871
17:39:20 <dustymabe> jberkus: because we limit what locales are put into atomic host
17:39:38 <dustymabe> mostly for space I think
17:39:45 <adamw> but anaconda doesn't know about that and offers / automatically uses locales that won't actually be in the installed system
17:39:57 <adamw> (it guesses your locale via geoip)
17:40:10 <dustymabe> right, this works fine for the cloud base image because we don't really offer an ISO image to do installs
17:40:16 <dustymabe> for atomic, we do offer an ISO
17:40:40 <walters> IIRC the size difference was on the order of 70MB but i can check quickly
17:40:45 <walters> doing so now
17:41:02 <dustymabe> walters: cool, adding that info to the ticket will be nice
17:41:21 <dustymabe> jlebon: also, the link adamw just posted shows a change to rhel7 anaconda, did that code make it into Fedora?
17:41:45 <adamw> dustymabe: well, the anaconda thing is only one aspect, really
17:41:54 <jlebon> dustymabe: not yet, no
17:41:59 <adamw> people might still actually want to *use* the typical Fedora locales on an atomic host system, regardless of how it's deployed, no?
17:42:33 <dustymabe> jlebon: ok, we should track that work somehow and not drop it
17:42:45 <jlebon> would it make sense to split this by server vs workstation. for the latter i'd vote for just including them all
17:42:58 <walters> you keep using that word "Fedora" like there's one thing ;)
17:43:11 <walters> among other things for example, the container image also doesn't have locales
17:43:15 <jberkus> how much space do locales take?
17:43:34 <dustymabe> jberkus: 13:40:41     walters | IIRC the size difference was on the order of 70MB but i can check quickly
17:43:37 <jberkus> walters: yeah, I'm more concerned about that; it's rather a PITA to add in the locales you need
17:43:51 <walters> yeah, definitely true
17:44:01 <maxamillion> adamw: +1
17:44:16 <walters> among other things we have the same problem with ostree deltas that deltarpm has with this situation
17:45:09 <jberkus> walters: for the container image, we want to load the locales as part of the user building an application image, but we really need a tool for that
17:45:26 <jberkus> since Fedora expects to ship with all of the locales, the tooling for adding missing locales is *terrible*
17:45:54 <maxamillion> walters: what is that problem that both deltas share?
17:46:02 <jberkus> (note that this is not unique to us, Debian has the same issue)
17:46:32 <walters> maxamillion, deltarpm needs to reconstruct the original RPM bit for bit to do GPG verification, which it can't do if the locale files have been stripped
17:46:44 <maxamillion> walters: ohhhh ok, gotchya
17:46:46 <walters> it's why if you install deltarpm in the fedora base container image it will complain and mostly not be useful
17:47:18 <dustymabe> note i filed an RFE for rpm to not try deltarpm if files were missing https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1458035
17:47:20 <walters> ostree deltas have the converse issue in this case; since we're stripping locales, defining some sort of "extra layer" for them is...harder
17:47:28 <dustymabe> but it was closed :(
17:48:51 <yzhang> So do we have consensus on any actionable items
17:48:52 <dustymabe> ok - anyone want to summarize the challenges this ticket gives us for the ticket?
17:49:38 <walters> i'll evaluate the size difference again and i vote we discuss more once we have that data back in hand
17:49:59 <yzhang> can you update the ticket at https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/282 to summarize walters ?
17:50:04 <dustymabe> ok - i will note that our fedora 26 images are larger than the 25 ones - haven't really investigated it
17:50:07 <walters> yes
17:50:10 <dustymabe> but we are trending large :(
17:50:14 <jlebon> and then we can discuss how much we care about image sizes :)
17:50:17 <maxamillion> walters: +1
17:50:23 <yzhang> #action walters to update https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/282 with the discussed points
17:50:29 <yzhang> moving on then
17:50:36 <yzhang> #topic Open floor
17:50:50 <yzhang> anyone have any open floor topics?
17:50:56 <dustymabe> test day next week :)
17:51:06 <dustymabe> please give things a spin if you can
17:51:15 <dustymabe> we will be around on the 20th for any questions
17:51:25 <dustymabe> ksinny: anything going on with you and alt arch?
17:52:03 <ksinny> dustymabe: nothing new in terms of Atomic
17:53:09 <ksinny> Rawhide nightlies are mostly getting DOOMED from past 2 weeks I believe and hence don't see much in composes for Atomic
17:53:25 <dustymabe> ksinny: cool - i think last nights worked
17:53:40 * ksinny needs to keep looking at it
17:53:42 <dustymabe> anyone else with anything?
17:53:50 <yzhang> I guess since we have no other pressing concerns, does anyone want to give thoughts on the proposal I wrote up for flock: https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/279#comment-444783
17:54:43 <dustymabe> yzhang: almost seems like two sessions
17:54:56 <maxamillion> yzhang: I like it but I worry you'll run out of time
17:55:11 <yzhang> mm, well there is a 3 hour option
17:55:12 <dustymabe> 1. how to install kube/origin 2. the nitty gritty of system containers and docker vs crio
17:55:16 <yzhang> for a hands on
17:55:22 <jberkus> make 3 proposals
17:55:27 <jberkus> 1 3-hour workshop
17:55:33 <jberkus> then two 1-hour sessions
17:56:07 <yzhang> as far as I can tell the "Do-sessions" are 2 or 3 hours
17:56:17 <yzhang> whereas the talks are 30/60 min
17:56:30 <yzhang> I think this would be better for a do session no?
17:56:32 <yzhang> jbrooks: are you here
17:56:37 <jberkus> yes
17:56:52 <jberkus> BUT if it's not a do-session, then it could be one or two preso sessions
17:57:32 <yzhang> Hm, we can discuss further in #fedora-cloud or #atomic when jbrooks gets back from his other meeting
17:57:36 <yzhang> Since we're running out of time
17:57:45 <yzhang> I'd like to get his input too
17:57:55 <yzhang> Alright we're running out of time
17:58:08 <yzhang> Anybody else with questions/concerns
17:58:26 <yzhang> Speaketh now or hold your peace until whenever I guess
17:58:32 <yzhang> we're always around
17:58:40 <yzhang> especially dustymabe that man doesn't sleep
17:58:56 <jbrooks> yzhang, sorry, split attn, I'll ping you in fedora-cloud
17:59:04 <dustymabe> :) - /me needs sleep
17:59:07 <yzhang> sounds good, will end meeting in 5
17:59:08 <yzhang> 4
17:59:10 <yzhang> 3
17:59:11 <yzhang> 2
17:59:12 <yzhang> 1
17:59:14 <yzhang> #endmeeting