20:00:08 <sgallagh> #startmeeting Fedora Server SIG Weekly Meeting (2018-07-03)
20:00:08 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Jul  3 20:00:08 2018 UTC.
20:00:08 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
20:00:08 <zodbot> The chair is sgallagh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:00:08 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:00:08 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_server_sig_weekly_meeting_(2018-07-03)'
20:00:08 <sgallagh> #meetingname serversig
20:00:08 <sgallagh> #topic Roll Call
20:00:08 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'serversig'
20:00:13 <sgallagh> .hello2
20:00:14 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
20:01:09 <sgallagh> ...
20:01:44 <nirik> morning
20:03:14 <smooge> hello
20:03:40 <smooge> adamw seems out for Canada Freedom Days
20:03:52 <smooge> mjwolf looks to be out
20:04:03 <smooge> I expect this is it
20:04:39 <sgallagh> OK, I'd prefer not to do this without Adam, so do we have any other topics?
20:04:48 <sgallagh> this == the PRD/Release Criteria topic
20:05:01 <nirik> lots of people out this week it seems like
20:05:42 <smooge> so where are things with freeipa? That thread looked almost tire-fire-ish but I don't know what it went to
20:05:56 <sgallagh> smooge: Sorry, which part?
20:06:31 <smooge> well was it working for F28? (or was it fixed for F28)
20:07:08 <sgallagh> smooge: The set of things we had as criteria worked in F28
20:07:22 <sgallagh> But there were apparently SIGNIFICANT regressions in things we didn't block on (and therefore test adequately)
20:08:11 <sgallagh> #topic FreeIPA
20:08:44 <sgallagh> In a previous meeting, we had generally agreed that we wanted to extend the release criteria around FreeIPA, but adamw resisted the idea of moving requirements into the test matrices.
20:08:53 <smooge> understood. I didn't know if those were 'fixed' by now. Sorry if this isn't making sense.. it is 90F in the home office so I am slower than normal
20:09:22 <sgallagh> smooge: You think that's bad? I just had to call the fire department because all my fire alarms went off.
20:09:29 <sgallagh> Apparently, the one in my attic *melted*
20:09:39 <smooge> oof
20:10:16 <sgallagh> So the topic before the Server SIG is: what *are* our requirements? And before that, what are our goals as a project?
20:10:31 <sgallagh> I think it's pretty clear that the Server Roles effort didn't really pan out
20:10:33 <linuxmodder> .hello2
20:10:34 <zodbot> linuxmodder: linuxmodder 'Corey W Sheldon' <sheldon.corey@gmail.com>
20:10:56 <sgallagh> (Which reminds me, I need to retire rolekit. I have a good excuse now as it is FTBFS with Python 3.7)
20:11:07 <smooge> yay! or not
20:11:10 <nirik> yeah.
20:11:58 <nirik> At this point we go back to being a platform for other people to build on? or try and focus on some area of that like application deployment or running in containers or something.
20:12:16 * nirik is also somewhat incoherent, need lunch soonly. :)
20:12:22 <sgallagh> Well, Fedora CoreOS is probably going to handle the running *of* containers.
20:12:40 <sgallagh> I think there's probably an argument to be made that we should provide the platform the containers themselves use.
20:14:03 <sgallagh> There's definitely still a market for the pets/queen bees
20:14:15 <nirik> yeah.
20:14:51 <sgallagh> But we are always fighting an uphill battle of "Why would you deploy critical infrastructure with Fedora"? While at the same time, if we don't have that, RHEL and CentOS have no place to prototype and stabilize.
20:15:45 <nirik> yeah. Upgrades being so much easier is nice...
20:15:53 <sgallagh> It's hard to get people to contribute on a project that they won't directly deploy
20:16:56 <smooge> Well most of the time all they want is that newer software bit still running on their EL2.1 system
20:17:19 <nirik> which modules may well give them...
20:17:32 <sgallagh> Right
20:17:49 <sgallagh> So is that what we do? Focus on being "boring"?
20:18:07 <sgallagh> Specifically target the clean upgrade case and leave the rest of userspace to modules?
20:18:23 <sgallagh> (And if that's the case, why aren't we just Fedora CoreOS?)
20:18:57 <nirik> good questions. :)
20:20:31 <nirik> I mean there's probibly a lot of cases that are not yet solved/polished on the new container/atomic/ostree world...
20:20:42 <nirik> so we are the boring old tranditional thing.
20:21:00 <sgallagh> So, does that mean we're just integrators?
20:21:13 <sgallagh> Our purpose is just to aim the firehose?
20:21:17 <nirik> do we have any resources to be much more?
20:21:29 <sgallagh> Valid question.
20:23:48 <sgallagh> I'm really not sure where our future lies.
20:24:23 <sgallagh> We know that our downstreams rely on on us continuing to at least churn out ISOs, but that's not an appealing mandate.
20:24:46 <nirik> yeah.... thats a coasting life
20:25:19 <smooge> Does making just ISOs just make us a 'spin'?
20:25:24 <nirik> I think the cloud image is very handy, and for now we are still handy for pet bare metal installs (but soon, that might not be the case)
20:25:52 <sgallagh> We've been asked to take over the cloud image and it's been implied that we may own the ISO image as well.
20:26:01 <sgallagh> err s/ISO/container base/
20:26:13 <sgallagh> (heat... brain... everything going dark...)
20:27:37 <smooge> that sounds like being the person who caught the hot potato before it exploded
20:28:51 <sgallagh> I'm also somewhat concerned that Modularity is going to make us *less* relevant.
20:29:11 <sgallagh> Eventually our downstreams will adopt Modularity.
20:29:22 <sgallagh> When they do, all the modules will be built for EPEL.
20:29:33 * nirik nods.
20:29:43 <sgallagh> At that point, Server would effectively become little more than a delivery vehicle for newer kernels/systemd
20:30:04 <nirik> and dnf/module handling tools. ;)
20:31:23 <nirik> perhaps all food for discussion at flock...
20:31:35 <smooge> with some ice drinks
20:31:48 <sgallagh> I think I need to discuss a few things with our benevolent overlords as well.
20:32:39 <sgallagh> But yeah, I think this year's State of Server talk is going to match its initials.
20:32:50 * nirik has to go get lunch before outage, back in a bit if we are still talking.
20:33:04 <sgallagh> I think we've got plenty to ponder.
20:33:23 <sgallagh> Shall we call it a day?
20:33:31 <smooge> I think so..
20:33:36 <smooge> we are pretty all bummed
20:33:43 <adamw> doh, meetings
20:33:52 * adamw is here
20:34:11 <adamw> so, the plan is we have no plan?
20:34:40 <sgallagh> adamw: Welcome
20:34:54 <sgallagh> adamw: tl;dr: We have an existential crisis
20:35:56 <adamw> oh, one of those.
20:36:28 <adamw> i really don't have any amazing ideas, i'm sorry
20:36:34 <adamw> i agree with the characterization of the problem
20:36:54 <sgallagh> And maybe that's okay?
20:37:08 <sgallagh> Maybe Server did the job it was meant to do and now it can rest
20:37:24 <sgallagh> (Not the one it set out to do, but that's fine)
20:37:49 <sgallagh> Or maybe there's some enormous use-case I am missing just waiting to be addressed
20:38:10 <adamw> i mean, sure, i'm fine with saying look, we're out of great ideas here
20:38:36 <adamw> i think there's definitely value in continuing /expanding the freeipa testing
20:39:35 <sgallagh> adamw: Maybe?
20:39:57 <adamw> i mean, the freeipa folks seem to appreciate it
20:40:24 <sgallagh> I wish I knew if anyone actually deployed it.
20:40:46 <sgallagh> Our initial reason for focusing on it so heavily was that we intended for everything else we did to build on it as a cornerstone.
20:42:15 <sgallagh> Let me rephrase the problem in a more positive-oriented way:
20:42:33 <sgallagh> What can Server bring to the table that other Editions cannot (or would have a hard time with)?
20:42:40 <sgallagh> Or that other distros cannot?
20:43:19 <adamw> i deploy it!
20:43:24 <adamw> there are a few others, in fact, i know from bug reports and stuff
20:43:34 <adamw> but yeah, ikwym.
20:43:48 <sgallagh> Well, it doesn't have to be what we do *today*
20:44:03 <adamw> i guess the question needs an extension: what can server bring *that people actually want*
20:44:12 <adamw> we built a thing, it just seemed like no-one was that excited about it.
20:44:14 <sgallagh> yes
20:44:43 <smooge> the thing most people seem to have wanted was an everything iso and when server no longer was tht.. the number dropped
20:44:51 <sgallagh> Maybe the answer is that Server stops being its own thing and starts being an umbrella for a set of targeted deliverables
20:45:26 <sgallagh> e.g. instead of Fedora Server Edition, we produce pre-built VM images of FreeIPA as a domain controller
20:45:35 <smooge> s/most people/many vocal people/
20:45:42 <adamw> you can't really do that, though, as the host / domain name is vital
20:45:54 <adamw> you can't pre-deploy it as that'd bake in the domain name
20:46:24 <sgallagh> adamw: Well, you can pre-install it and have a simple Cockpit UI to deploy it
20:46:35 <adamw> sure, which is basically done already.
20:46:43 <sgallagh> Woohoo!
20:46:44 <adamw> (er, wait, i don't think we have deployment yet?)
20:46:46 * sgallagh goes drinking
20:46:48 * adamw needs to check
20:46:54 <sgallagh> Yeah, we don't yet.
20:46:58 <sgallagh> It's in the works though
20:47:18 <sgallagh> FreeIPA is building an ansible-based installer as well; I'm not sure the status of that
20:47:56 <sgallagh> But maybe that's our future: targeted use-case systems instead of a general-purpose server
20:48:21 <adamw> maybe? i just don't know. can we do a survey or something?
20:48:43 <sgallagh> adamw: We don't have the budget for a proper survey
20:48:48 <adamw> .......sigh.
20:48:48 <nirik> what if we looked at doing something on top of modules.
20:49:27 <nirik> ie, the modules are just collections of packages... a way to deploy a usable thing from those. But I guess thats what rolekit was trying to do.
20:49:43 <sgallagh> eh, not entirely
20:50:01 <sgallagh> modules addresses package availability issues, but it doesn't handle configuration and deployment of them inherently
20:50:25 <sgallagh> Deployment is not the right word there
20:50:29 <sgallagh> Not sure what is
20:50:47 <sgallagh> Enablement, maybe
20:51:03 <adamw> well, i guess that's what nirik meant by 'on top'
20:51:19 <nirik> right
20:51:53 <sgallagh> Well, Cockpit is going to grow UX for selecting and installing module streams and profiles soemtime in the near future.
20:51:57 <nirik> ie, you can install a dogtag module and a freeipa module and a whatever module, but you have to then set it up as a freeipa server.
20:52:07 <sgallagh> But any individual service is going to need its own configuration module
20:53:10 <adamw> well, i wasn't expecting THAT. (soccerball)
20:53:18 <sgallagh> ?
20:53:25 <adamw> england won a penalty shootout. you read that right!
20:53:44 <adamw> anyhoo
20:53:55 <sgallagh> Yay sportsball!
20:54:25 <sgallagh> OK, so again, maybe our new mission is "we build cockpit UI plugins for important services"
20:54:57 <nirik> can configuration modules do what rolekit did?
20:55:17 <adamw> is anyone sort of excited and enthusiastic to work on that?
20:55:28 <sgallagh> nirik: Be written poorly and crash frequently? I'm sure they can!
20:55:28 <adamw> because if we're just casting around for ideas for the sake of having some i'm not sure how well that's gonna work
20:55:42 <sgallagh> adamw: I'd be very excited to *have* that.
20:55:42 <adamw> rolekit got as far as it did because sgallagh was enthusiastic about it
20:56:28 <sgallagh> rolekit was always intended to be a middleware piece between something like Cockpit and services in general.
20:56:41 <sgallagh> I think what we proved out was that the piece in the middle can't realistically be made generic
20:57:35 <smooge> agreed
20:57:56 <smooge> I think that trying to get enthusiastic when it is hot and tiring.. is probably not going to happen today
20:58:37 <sgallagh> Yeah, we're coming up on the top of the hour.
20:59:19 <sgallagh> adamw: As a stopgap measure, can we just add those extended criteria for FreeIPA for F29 and use Flock as a jumping-off point for a new direction?
20:59:43 <adamw> sure
20:59:56 <adamw> well, i'll probably draft a first change to drop rolekit from the criteria, *additioanl* criteria as a second change
21:00:03 <sgallagh> ack
21:00:04 <adamw> as we'll need to be sure we can back it with testing, which i'd also need to set up
21:00:51 * sgallagh nods
21:02:52 <sgallagh> OK, anything further to discuss here today?
21:03:15 <adamw> nope
21:04:34 <sgallagh> OK, thanks for coming folks. It's going to be an interesting summer...
21:04:39 <sgallagh> #endmeeting