15:00:04 <mattdm> #startmeeting Council (2019-01-16)
15:00:04 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jan 16 15:00:04 2019 UTC.
15:00:04 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
15:00:04 <zodbot> The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00:04 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:04 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2019-01-16)'
15:00:06 <mattdm> #meetingname council
15:00:06 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
15:00:08 <mattdm> #chair jonatoni bex contyk dgilmore dperpeet langdon mattdm sumantrom tyll bcotton pbrobinson
15:00:08 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton bex contyk dgilmore dperpeet jonatoni langdon mattdm pbrobinson sumantrom tyll
15:00:10 <mattdm> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
15:00:18 <mattdm> goood $TIMEOFDAY everyone!
15:00:19 <bexelbie> .hello bex
15:00:19 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bexelbie@redhat.com>
15:00:23 <bcotton> .hello2
15:00:24 <zodbot> bcotton: bcotton 'Ben Cotton' <bcotton@redhat.com>
15:01:14 <langdon> .hello2
15:01:15 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@redhat.com>
15:01:32 <contyk> o/
15:01:38 <contyk> .hello psabata
15:01:39 <zodbot> contyk: psabata 'Petr Šabata' <psabata@redhat.com>
15:02:41 <mattdm> Since this is an Objectives meeting, I hope we also have pbrobinson, dperpeet, and pfrields?
15:02:59 <dgilmore> morning
15:03:01 <stickster> .hello pfrields
15:03:03 <zodbot> stickster: pfrields 'Paul W. Frields' <stickster@gmail.com>
15:03:08 <mattdm> oh yeah stickster :)
15:03:10 * dgilmore is doing double meeting duty this morning
15:03:15 <mattdm> #chair stickster
15:03:15 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton bex contyk dgilmore dperpeet jonatoni langdon mattdm pbrobinson stickster sumantrom tyll
15:03:29 * mattdm needs to add stickster to the template
15:04:09 <mattdm> #topic Agenda
15:04:26 <mattdm> I think we'll wait another minute and then go forward with the objective leads we have here... make sense?
15:04:34 <bexelbie> +1
15:04:49 <mattdm> langdon, stickster -- flip a coin?
15:05:29 <stickster> I can go first.
15:05:30 <langdon> I would prefer later
15:05:34 <mattdm> PERFECT
15:05:34 <stickster> there you go
15:05:41 <mattdm> okay, so, agenda is:
15:05:51 <mattdm> #info Lifecycle Objective
15:06:04 <mattdm> #info Modularity: the future
15:06:20 <mattdm> #info We'll see if the others show up today :)
15:06:25 <mattdm> #topic Lifecycle Objective
15:06:43 <mattdm> stickster: I know it's, like, it was the holidays, and then, digging out from holidays, and now it's devconf :)
15:06:58 <mattdm> the latest status on the
15:06:59 <mattdm> 2018-11: Objective approved by Council. More documentation coming soon.
15:07:05 <mattdm> objective page is ^
15:07:12 <mattdm> (sorry, read out of order)
15:07:35 <mattdm> any updates?
15:07:50 * stickster goes to the page to check this
15:08:26 <stickster> URL? apparently I'm not on the right one
15:08:55 <mattdm> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/objectives/
15:09:20 <stickster> Oh neat. I'll take some time to update that again after this, then ;-)
15:09:32 <stickster> Better documentation is found here, obviously
15:09:41 <stickster> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Lifecycle
15:09:49 <stickster> and more specifically: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Lifecycle/Problem_statements
15:10:00 <mattdm> I'm thinking once we have Taiga up and running we can replace "current status" in that doc with either a static link or (even better!) something updated automatically
15:10:04 <stickster> I'll get those links into the block.
15:10:12 <mattdm> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Lifecycle
15:10:16 <mattdm> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Lifecycle/Problem_statements
15:11:01 <mattdm> so reading the Problem Statement, Taiga is at #0
15:11:08 <mattdm> nice nerd numbering scheme there :)
15:11:33 <stickster> It is, but these are not indicative of "first, then second..." ordering
15:11:34 <mattdm> What's the status of that? We're planning for a hosted service with FAS integration, right?
15:12:27 <stickster> There is a plan for a hosted service, and Evolution (and you?) have been talking with the Taiga folks about that. I care mainly about a way to track things at a holistic epic/story level
15:13:15 <mattdm> Taiga has that as a feature (https://tree.taiga.io/support/epics/what-is-an-epic/)
15:13:16 <bcotton> stickster: is there an ETA for that? seems like it's been in the works for a while, so if there's something we can do to help move it along...
15:13:22 <mattdm> so that should help from a technical pov
15:14:35 <stickster> I've delegated this part to Evolution to work on. The Community Platform Engineering team at RH (used to be just Fedora, now it's CentOS + Fedora) has a new manager, lgriffin, and he and Jim are working together on solving the tracking problem
15:14:58 <bexelbie> As a note, I am going to release the funds we blocked in this FY for this.  My understanding is that in the next FY these funds are sourced from a different budget
15:15:12 * lgriffin waves to everyone
15:15:55 <mattdm> oh hi lgriffin!
15:16:12 <stickster> The Taiga system is potentially of use across all teams, publily/transparently in Fedora
15:16:17 <mattdm> are you working on the taiga deploy or do we need to wait on Evolution for an update?
15:16:24 <stickster> So we're going to keep pursuing that
15:16:31 <mattdm> stickster: yeah, in fact we're mandating it, remember? :)
15:17:39 * cverna jumps in
15:17:44 <mattdm> cverna++
15:17:47 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for cverna changed to 17 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:17:55 <mattdm> Jumping in gets cookies
15:18:09 <cverna> The required AWS instances for taiga were provision Monday
15:18:17 <cverna> \o/ cookies
15:18:30 <cverna> provisioned*
15:18:49 <stickster> cverna++  as well :-)
15:18:55 <bexelbie> we're self-hosting it?
15:19:20 <mattdm> bexelbie: no -- we're doing an option where they manage it on aws infra we provide.
15:19:23 <mattdm> as i recall.
15:19:28 <stickster> that's what I recall too
15:19:37 <mattdm> we can do this thanks to the generousity of amazon in donating those instances
15:19:39 <bexelbie> I thought they were going to run it for us
15:19:43 <bexelbie> on instances from Amazon
15:19:45 <mattdm> bexelbie: they are.
15:19:50 <stickster> that's what we're saying :-D
15:19:54 <bexelbie> ok, so we aren't really self-hosting it then
15:20:00 <bexelbie> because we aren't doing the management below the app
15:20:10 <bexelbie> at least in my misuse of the term
15:20:31 <langdon> meh.. i would say it is "partially self-hosted".. we still need to ensure the uptime of the boxen
15:20:35 * stickster thinks this is probably getting bogged down in terms of time if you're trying to make a 55/60-min block here
15:20:37 <mattdm> yeah we're just providing the instances to them. aiui they are actually managing those instances. cverna, lgriffin can you confirm?
15:21:15 <cverna> this is my understanding to, we just created the boxes and they will take care of them from now
15:21:22 <cverna> s/to/too/
15:21:23 <mattdm> stickster: yes good point let's not get too stuck. we just wanted to make sure we're not adding a bunch of extra work we hadn't planned for
15:21:30 <bexelbie> woo :)
15:21:40 <bexelbie> that was the goal, we get Taiga and we don't get hours of people-work
15:22:07 <mattdm> So I guess FAS integration is the big thing?
15:22:40 <stickster> Let me get back to meat of status... which is that there are multiple day CPE team meetings in Brno next week before the DevConf.cz event.
15:23:07 <langdon> CPE?
15:23:13 <mattdm> "Community Platform Engineering"
15:23:19 <langdon> doh
15:23:23 <mattdm> this is the merged CentOS and Fedora Engineering teams at Red Hat
15:23:26 <stickster> Attendees include lgriffin, Evolution, nirik, puiterwijk, cverna, pingou, rbarlow, smooge, mkonecny, thrcka, mboddu, and folks from my team
15:23:41 <langdon> yeah.. my brain must be broken
15:23:51 * pingou waves and smiles
15:23:52 <cverna> FAS integration should be OK, we have updated the plugin that runs currently on the fedorainfracloud box
15:23:59 <stickster> huh. that reminds me contyk -- I think I shared location out to our group but will do so again (or s/again// if I forgot amongst chaos)
15:24:37 <mattdm> #info Red Hat's Community Platform Engineering team meeting in days before DevConf.cz to work on many aspects of this project
15:24:44 <contyk> stickster: I think you did
15:25:01 <mattdm> stickster: What can we expect as outputs from that?
15:26:06 <stickster> Those meetings have several goals, and one of them is a plan that includes defined tasks, and assignees wherever possible, for work that we need in order to expand use of CI/testing on packages both in general and specifically inRawhide
15:26:25 <mattdm> so ideally we'll have taiga in place *before* then so this can all be done in that tool
15:26:45 <stickster> that would be ideal, but it's not a blocker. We can still capture all the data we need and put it in the appropriate place afterward.
15:27:11 <mattdm> I'm seeing some interesting overlap/interlock between this objective, the CI one, and the proposed Better Packager Experience one
15:27:40 <stickster> We have a whole day set aside where afedorova and people from her team like dperpeet and ttomecek will be able to talk to us about ways to collaborate, what is working well/not so well, how to improve
15:27:48 <stickster> That will also feed into work planning.
15:28:05 <mattdm> cool, yes.
15:28:14 <stickster> From my perspective as the manager of the managers of those teams, it also means we will be spending some time *prioritizing* what is to happen in FY20
15:28:40 <stickster> That means people can expect the immediate reaction to fire drills or last minute requests will not be a universal "OK, we'll just hump it"
15:28:42 <bexelbie> How can the community impact that priority?
15:29:14 <stickster> By looking at the plan presented and pointing out urgencies or critical-path things that are missed
15:29:44 <mattdm> stickster: you mentioned that https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Lifecycle/Problem_statements is not an ordered list
15:29:49 <stickster> Evolution and lgriffin will make sure the outputs are all transparent and the community can review/comment
15:29:57 <mattdm> so an outcome of devconf will basically be putting that in order?
15:31:05 <mattdm> cverna: to put you on the spot, do you think having taiga deployed and usable before those meetings next week is reasonable?
15:31:40 <cverna> I would say that it now depends on the taiga folks
15:31:41 <stickster> mattdm: Well, putting a more granular set of things in order. They will probably interleave, tbh
15:31:49 <bexelbie> stickster, so those comments are ok after the plan is published next week?
15:31:56 * cverna does not know more than that
15:32:18 <mattdm> cverna okay thanks. let's communicate to them that it'd be helpful if it's doable that quickly.
15:32:47 <stickster> bexelbie: It will probably take a few days after next week to get everything published. Everyone on site will be extremely loaded (as you're no doubt aware, not to mention yourself!) from DevConf.cz onsite chaos)
15:32:49 <contyk> somewhat ot: so have we decided to go with taiga+pagure vs. other options?
15:33:04 <contyk> I thought we were still exploring
15:33:37 <stickster> I think I'm done with status
15:33:37 <bexelbie> stickster, what I meant was the output of next wasn't a final list, correct?
15:33:53 <mattdm> contyk yeah, taiga for the planning tool. gitlab hosting not within our reasoanble reach -- we would have had to self host
15:34:07 <contyk> mattdm: ack
15:34:18 <stickster> bexelbie: It's not final but it's going to likely represent the majority of our priorities. Other things to be considered as well, including ad-hoc as we have to do in any active project.
15:34:24 <pingou> stickster: not to forget the famous devconf and fosdem flue
15:34:27 <mattdm> stickster: sounds like the status is basically "Still in planning/preplanning"
15:34:29 <mattdm> pingou: NO.
15:34:29 <stickster> bexelbie: It doesn't mean "we're ignoring everyone else"
15:34:51 <cverna> I think we also need to take into account that we need to get familiar with how taiga works, and maybe rushing at putting stuff in taiga without really understanding how we will use the tool is not a good idea
15:34:54 <stickster> bexelbie: But it does mean "If you want more than the team can get done, something's got to give."
15:34:55 * pingou points mattdm and contyk https://pagure.io/pagure-taiga
15:35:19 <mattdm> #link https://pagure.io/pagure-taiga
15:35:42 <mattdm> #info syncing new tickets, syncing new comments, and syncing issue/user-stories status update
15:35:45 <mattdm> neat
15:35:53 <stickster> Aside about these meetings
15:36:49 <stickster> We are also trying to figure out some new ways for the team to work together. The people on this team have, for a long time, been working very hard to maintain a lot of stuff. It forces them into an untenable situation of too many single-person projects, and it's wearing on the team.
15:37:09 <mattdm> #info Overall status of objective is: Not blocked. In planning/preplanning with meetings at DevConf
15:37:39 <stickster> So we're going to take some time to explore possible solutions, and that is going to necessarily change how they deal with inputs. I've given lgriffin and Evolution my full support for that as well
15:38:10 <mattdm> in other words, less pinging random people on irc, please? :)
15:38:37 <mattdm> let's move on to modularity....
15:38:40 <mattdm> thanks stickster!
15:38:41 <stickster> <eof/>
15:38:43 <stickster> o/
15:38:50 <mattdm> wait is that raising hand?
15:38:55 <stickster> oh sorry
15:38:57 <mattdm> or waving bye?
15:38:59 <stickster> that was a wave
15:39:04 <stickster> I'm still here tho'
15:39:06 <mattdm> ambiguous ascii art! :)
15:39:12 <mattdm> #topic Modularity
15:39:37 <mattdm> langdon, contyk -- as I recall from the f2f meeting the plan was to come up with a next phase here. am i remembering right?
15:39:41 <langdon> so.. things are going along.. as I think we have mentioned before .. we have moved to taiga for tracking work
15:39:49 <langdon> yes
15:39:57 <langdon> but not much progress has been made on that
15:40:08 <langdon> we also did some changes to the rules for the wg
15:40:22 <langdon> https://pagure.io/modularity/issue/119
15:41:12 <mattdm> langdon: can you summarize the changes in, like, two lines?
15:42:00 <mattdm> Also: I'm thinking about overlap between our objectives -- Lifecycle and CI have a lot, and in some ways Modularity does too as a building block.
15:42:01 <langdon> ohh... much like server wg... a) voters == present to vote; b) lazy consensus; c) every week meetings (from every other)
15:42:24 <contyk> there is a lot of overlap indeed
15:42:30 <mattdm> (okay, so, good to have the rules updated, but things the council probably doesn't care about)
15:42:32 <contyk> I think modularity provides some means to achieve the other
15:42:43 <mattdm> That overlap isn't necessarily bad as long as it's clear who is responsible for what.
15:43:00 <mattdm> I'm also thinking about the proposed/potential Packager Experience objective
15:43:11 <langdon> well.. modularity has always been a "consumer" .. so usually it works ok as long as we stay connected
15:43:21 <langdon> i thikn that last one is the strongest overlap personally
15:43:34 <contyk> for modularity we really need to resolve some process things now -- mostly make content easy to discover and analyze for change owners, the security team, and releng
15:43:39 <contyk> that's progressing
15:43:47 <mattdm> Yeah, so on the list I mused about merging the next modularity phase into that proposal. Does that make sense?
15:44:10 <langdon> i must not have seen that in the thread
15:44:27 <langdon> i think that may be too much overlap.. but I can certainly discuss it with folks
15:44:40 <mattdm> too much overlap as in "too much overloading"?
15:45:02 <langdon> no... like pkging improvements is a subset of modularity work
15:46:20 <mattdm> Ah so agreeing that it should probably be one thing
15:46:33 <mattdm> A lot of what Ben proposes isn't modularity-specific though
15:46:36 <langdon> umm.. not i am confused
15:46:43 <langdon> i thought i was saying the opposite :)
15:46:48 <mattdm> plus there is the ttomecek source-git thing
15:47:14 <mattdm> Okay then I need more words :) "too much overlap" means what?
15:47:20 <mattdm> (Ben Rosser not bcotton)
15:48:34 <langdon> as in.. pkging objective has a set of goals (as does CI and lifecycle) which are not the same as modularity.. not that they are in conflict but that they are "complete" by different criteria.. so.. the pkging obj will be "complete" without all the goals of modularity being completed
15:49:02 <langdon> so I meant like.. if we merged them it would subsume one or the other.. which may not be what we want
15:49:18 <mattdm> Okay I am just going to pretend you didn't say "too much overlap" because that doesn't mean that to me :)
15:49:33 <langdon> ha.. perhaps poorly worded
15:49:36 <mattdm> I'm okay with them being separate but working together
15:50:00 <mattdm> Do we want to set a date for seeing a refreshed modularity objective? Like, after devconf sometime?
15:50:01 <langdon> we could, perhaps, "hand over" some of the modularity epics to the pkging obj ... but that doesn't mean there wouldn't still be other modularity objectives (the same could be said for CI & lifecycle, i think)
15:50:13 <langdon> yeah.. lets say mid-feb
15:50:47 <langdon> is there an ETA for the pkg one? cause I think they will impact each other
15:50:52 <mattdm> #info expect updated modularity objective phase proposal mid february
15:51:30 <mattdm> langdon: not as yet. As it is proposed by someone who is not full time on Fedora it might not be speedy
15:52:01 <mattdm> but probably mid february is reasonable for that too
15:52:04 <langdon> right.. i wonder if i should take a stab at that too.. to get them a strawman (and I write pretty quickly)
15:52:20 <langdon> i don't want to commit to it... but I may send a draft to the thread
15:52:35 <ttomecek> ( mattdm: source-git is just one piece, we'll have a complete story to share at devconf)
15:52:41 <mattdm> langdon: that's probably helpful
15:52:48 <mattdm> ttomecek: awesome looking forward to it
15:53:04 <langdon> ci is also do for a rewrite as well, right?
15:53:11 <mattdm> langdon: yes.
15:53:31 <mattdm> so all of these things should somehow coordinate. :)
15:53:37 <langdon> i would really like to see ttomecek's stuff broken out (it could be in the same doc) as i think it would be easier to align the pkging and modularity ones to that "part"
15:53:48 <ttomecek> CI will have a new proposal, basically CI 2.0
15:53:53 <mattdm> I'm expecting IoT to wrap up as an objective with the launch of the Edition in F30, assuming that it is technically ready
15:54:51 <mattdm> assuming we renew ci and modularity and add packager experience, we'll have four very closely linked objectives
15:54:52 <langdon> i kinda wonder if we should have an "obj writing fad"
15:54:56 <mattdm> which isn't necessarily bad....
15:55:01 <mattdm> but YEAH i was just thinking that
15:55:16 <langdon> cause it might be a LOT easier to write them together
15:56:00 * mattdm eyes the remaining FY19 budget
15:57:23 <mattdm> langdon: can you explore with the ci/always ready team and with ben rosser (TC01 on irc) whether that might be possible?
15:57:36 <mattdm> seychelles :)
15:57:40 * langdon hates signing up for work
15:57:41 <langdon> but sure
15:57:47 <langdon> RIGHT?!?!?!
15:57:53 * mattdm likes signing up langdon for work
15:57:59 * langdon mutters
15:58:27 <mattdm> In person would of course be nice but if that doesn't work at least an arranged virtual day that's set aside
15:58:32 <langdon> right
15:58:36 <mattdm> and hey look we're at the hour
15:58:41 <mattdm> anything else anyone?
15:58:49 <bcotton> o/
15:58:59 <mattdm> ARE YOU WAVING OR RAISING YOUR HAND?
15:59:06 <langdon> yes!
15:59:07 <stickster> lol
15:59:09 <bcotton> do we want to cancel next week's meeting since many of us will either be on the way to DevConf or in meetings?
15:59:14 <langdon> \o/
15:59:24 <bcotton> langdon scored a touchdown
15:59:27 <mattdm> also I'd like to throw bcotton into that writing fad bus as program manager
15:59:29 * stickster will not be here either way
15:59:31 <mattdm> bcotton: yes, good call.
15:59:39 <langdon> it hit the upright & the crossbar!
15:59:54 <mattdm> #info next week's council meeting canceled due to devconf and travel
16:00:00 <mattdm> thanks everyone
16:00:19 <mattdm> #endmeeting