15:00:50 <bcotton> #startmeeting Council (2019-02-13)
15:00:50 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Feb 13 15:00:50 2019 UTC.
15:00:50 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
15:00:50 <zodbot> The chair is bcotton. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00:50 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:50 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2019-02-13)'
15:00:55 <bcotton> #meetingname council
15:00:55 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
15:01:08 <bcotton> #chair jonatoni bex contyk dgilmore dperpeet langdon mattdm sumantrom tyll bcotton pbrobinson
15:01:08 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton bex contyk dgilmore dperpeet jonatoni langdon mattdm pbrobinson sumantrom tyll
15:01:26 <bcotton> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
15:01:41 <tyll> .hello till
15:01:43 <zodbot> tyll: till 'Till Maas' <opensource@till.name>
15:01:48 * mattdm is here but going to go run get a cup of coffee in a few seconds
15:01:55 <contyk> .hello psabata
15:01:56 <zodbot> contyk: psabata 'Petr Šabata' <psabata@redhat.com>
15:02:01 <bcotton> mattdm: please bring some for the whole class
15:03:02 <mattdm> bcotton: it's fair trade!
15:03:10 <bcotton> unsubscribe!
15:04:07 * langdon was in the wrong room :/
15:04:10 <langdon> .hello2
15:04:11 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@redhat.com>
15:04:28 <bcotton> oops forgot to #chair stickster
15:04:30 <bcotton> #chair stickster
15:04:30 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton bex contyk dgilmore dperpeet jonatoni langdon mattdm pbrobinson stickster sumantrom tyll
15:04:32 <mattdm> ok all set
15:04:57 <mattdm> bcotton: you want to #agenda or shall i take over?
15:05:05 <bcotton> i can do it
15:05:13 <mattdm> cool
15:05:17 <bcotton> we have 1/4 objective leads at the moment, so it should be pretty easy :-)
15:05:29 <langdon> and i don't have much of an update
15:05:37 <bcotton> #topic Agenda
15:05:44 <mattdm> then we should add "objectives writing hackfest" to the list
15:05:48 <bcotton> #info Today is an Objectives update meeting
15:05:50 <bcotton> mattdm: ack
15:05:57 <bcotton> #info 1. Modularity
15:06:00 <langdon> i was just going to write that ticket
15:06:04 <bcotton> #info 2. Objectives writing hackfest
15:06:14 <bcotton> #info 3. Other objectives if the leads arrive
15:06:23 <bcotton> #topic Modularity Objective update
15:06:27 <bcotton> all you, langdon
15:06:53 <langdon> sorry.. was distracted
15:07:13 <langdon> still making steady progress on UI elements and consistency of behavior
15:07:50 <langdon> we have status in the taiga board.. /me waits for it to load
15:08:01 <mattdm> is that end user or packager ux?
15:08:02 <langdon> https://tree.taiga.io/project/modularity-wg/timeline
15:08:22 <contyk> langdon: should we be moving to the fpo instance?
15:08:29 <bcotton> #info still making steady progress on UI elements and consistency of behavior
15:08:40 <bcotton> #info status is in the Taiga board
15:08:41 <langdon> end user.. however, we need to focus on "packager/developer ux" as a higher priority for a conference that I need to present at :)
15:08:50 <bcotton> #link https://tree.taiga.io/project/modularity-wg/timeline
15:08:51 <langdon> contyk: i believe the fedora taiga is not ready yet
15:08:56 <langdon> unless i missed a memo
15:09:17 <mattdm> It's almost ready
15:09:22 <contyk> it popped up during the team meeting yesterday
15:09:28 <mattdm> sometime in the next week i think
15:09:52 <mattdm> i mean, https://teams.fedoraproject.org/project/modularity-wg/timeline *seems to be a thing :)
15:10:06 <langdon> ok.. would be nice to move it when we can.. i think it has export/import but i have never really done it
15:10:35 <langdon> mattdm: weird.. i wonder who made that
15:10:51 <mattdm> langdon: probably a test import
15:11:08 <mattdm> looks like it's out of date though
15:11:12 <langdon> yeah.. seems a little out of date (6 days)
15:11:16 <mattdm> plus i see that fas login isn't the default currently
15:11:23 <mattdm> it has openid as an option
15:11:28 <mattdm> but we want it to be _the_ thing
15:11:39 <langdon> are we expecting to use openid or fas?
15:11:48 <contyk> FAS, I believe
15:12:03 <langdon> ohh.. it is called openid but is actually fas when you click on it
15:12:22 <contyk> I also recall someone saying the taiga folks could help us with the migration, which could hopefully include user remapping
15:12:46 <langdon> ooo and a 500 when i try to use fas!
15:12:48 <bcotton> i'm going to gently nudge the conversation back toward modularity now
15:12:50 * bcotton nudges
15:13:00 <langdon> ha
15:13:18 <langdon> ohh.. i think scratch builds are pretty close
15:13:37 <langdon> contyk: what else would you highlight?
15:13:57 <contyk> I can only think of the bad stuff
15:14:04 <langdon> ha.. yeah..
15:14:15 <bexelbie> .hello bex - sorry I am late
15:14:16 <zodbot> bexelbie: Sorry, but you don't exist
15:14:19 <contyk> but overall it's on track
15:14:22 <mattdm> contyk: can we have a rundown of that, then?
15:14:30 <mattdm> just the lowlights :)
15:14:39 <dperpeet> oh, I guess I should have said hi as well :)
15:14:42 <dperpeet> .hello dperpeet
15:14:43 <zodbot> dperpeet: dperpeet 'None' <dperpeet@redhat.com>
15:14:49 <bexelbie> .hello bex
15:14:50 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bexelbie@redhat.com>
15:14:55 <contyk> I think a major pain point right now is the total lack of modularity support in dnf system-upgrade
15:15:12 <contyk> which was just recently added to the release acceptance criteria
15:15:24 <bcotton> #info A major pain point right now is the lack of modularity support in `dnf system-upgrade`, which was just recently added to the release acceptance criteria
15:15:32 <contyk> it was broken for f28->f29 and it still is for f29->f30; the difference is now we're going to block on it
15:16:18 <bcotton> what does the dnf team say about delivering it for f30?
15:16:39 <contyk> nothing yet; we'll discuss it next week
15:17:02 <mattdm> contyk: um, oops. that seems kind of important.
15:17:15 <contyk> there are two related issues, one of which is more of an rfe
15:17:36 <contyk> if we drop that, I would expect the other part (simply respecting streams) should be simple
15:18:47 <langdon> on the more postive front.... copr is getting an upgrade which includes improved module support.. today i belive
15:18:53 <langdon> *positive
15:19:07 <bcotton> #info COPR is getting improved module support in an upgrade today-ish
15:19:09 <contyk> positive+festive=postive
15:19:23 <bcotton> contyk++
15:19:23 <langdon> ha
15:20:57 <bcotton> anything else from or for langdon & contyk before we move on?
15:21:06 <langdon> i think that's all i had
15:21:12 * pbrobinson is sort of here
15:21:16 <dgilmore> hey I am here
15:21:30 <mattdm> theoretically there should be a refreshed objective proposal. but that can wait until the hackfest discussion at the end of this meeting
15:21:48 <langdon> yeah
15:22:17 <bcotton> okay, then let's throw it to dperpeet
15:22:24 <bcotton> #topic CI Objective update
15:23:02 <dperpeet> so
15:23:32 <dperpeet> for CI, I first want to nod towards the hackfest discussion on writing the new proposals
15:23:42 <dperpeet> I think the current one is pretty much done
15:23:57 <dperpeet> and for the new one, pingou is driving the gating rawhide effort
15:24:18 <dperpeet> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/GatingRawhidePackages?rd=Changes/GatingRawhide
15:24:53 <dperpeet> which will be the interface point for a lot of developers to come into contact with the CI
15:25:17 <mattdm> dperpeet: is that change _basically_ the objetive for the next 6 months, or is there more surrounding it?
15:25:32 <dperpeet> also, we'll want to link upstream work to Fedora directly
15:25:36 <dperpeet> by automating packaging
15:25:53 <dperpeet> gating is an enabler
15:26:12 <dperpeet> but CI happens when we give feedback on changes
15:26:31 <dperpeet> so that developers see "hey, this is what my new release does in Fedora"
15:26:49 <dperpeet> target for us is Flock
15:27:05 <dperpeet> but don't nail me down on the details, we'll write those up
15:27:37 <dperpeet> incidentally, the same tests will still run for stable
15:27:45 <dperpeet> or rather, for non-rawhide
15:28:07 <dperpeet> so the work that developers / packagers put into the first iteration of the CI Objective will keep serving them
15:28:24 <bcotton> #info Target for gating implementation is Flock
15:28:49 <dperpeet> done
15:28:50 <dperpeet> :)
15:28:59 <bcotton> questions for dperpeet?
15:29:36 <mattdm> i asked mine :)
15:29:51 <langdon> i didn't follow the answer though..
15:30:18 <langdon> is the change pingou is working on the current CI objective?
15:30:19 <dperpeet> the gating proposal change is an important enabler for the Objective
15:30:33 <langdon> right ok
15:30:41 <dperpeet> you can't have CI without gating
15:30:46 <dperpeet> so we're helping with that as we can
15:31:18 <dperpeet> Objective is: running tests + providing feedback (via automated packaging and other means)
15:31:45 <dperpeet> langdon, does that help?
15:31:57 <langdon> yep.. got it
15:32:32 <bcotton> yay! pbrobinson are you here enough to give an IoT objective update?
15:34:03 <bcotton> let's call that a "no" for now
15:34:11 <bcotton> #topic Objective Writing Hackfest
15:34:23 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/245
15:34:23 <langdon> oo.. i made a ticket
15:34:29 <pbrobinson> yes
15:34:31 <pbrobinson> sorry
15:34:40 <mattdm> double undo
15:35:12 <bcotton> #undo
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15:35:20 <bcotton> #topic IoT Objective update
15:35:29 <bcotton> go ahead, pbrobinson
15:35:37 <pbrobinson> we've having quite a bit of interest
15:35:59 <mattdm> \o/
15:36:10 <mattdm> some serious big deployment interest, as I understand it
15:36:32 <pbrobinson> from a combination of RH customers (NDA unfortunately), a number of Arm partners (mostly NDA until they stick their head up) and a number of small start ups
15:36:46 <bcotton> #info Quite a bit of interest in Fedora IoT from Red Hat customers, Arm partners, and startups
15:37:06 <pbrobinson> some of this will begin to become public in the coming months as they start to participate actively
15:37:44 <mattdm> pbrobinson++
15:37:44 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for pbrobinson changed to 4 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:38:08 <pbrobinson> we have a tech writer for a number of hours that is rapidly improving the getting started docs (yes, the ones I originally wrote we're great)
15:38:12 <pbrobinson> #link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/iot/
15:38:21 <pbrobinson> feedback on that welcome
15:38:47 <pbrobinson> we're blocked somewhat there because we don't have a landing page
15:39:16 <mattdm> There's a long-open ticket for the landing page
15:39:25 <mattdm> I've raised that as an escalated priority
15:39:31 <pbrobinson> at the moment it's ~10 days before I can even discuss getting it priortised and I get the feeling then it'll be low :-/
15:39:51 <pbrobinson> and the design team don't seem to want to engage with what I feel the requirements are
15:39:59 <mattdm> It seems liek something we should be able to have *done* in 10 days
15:40:35 <pbrobinson> the users are going to be widely different and I feel that ramming it in with all the other various deliverables is going to be confusing for those users
15:41:31 <mattdm> pbrobinson: I think that's a consideration for the revised getfedora page with IoT as an edition, not for the landing page, right?
15:41:37 <mattdm> let's make sure those don't get mixed up
15:41:41 <pbrobinson> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-websites/issue/788
15:41:41 <pbrobinson> #link https://pagure.io/design/issue/596
15:41:58 <mattdm> In my impression I'm hearing some degree of "we want to do this grand thing with a new vision, so we can't do a simple thing now"
15:42:16 <pbrobinson> mattdm: TBH I no longer know, I feel it's like the tail is wagging the dog and now I just have a head ache
15:43:20 <pbrobinson> grand visions are great..... they're like govt IT transformation projects... they're suppose to take 6 months and cost $1m and take 10 years, cost a billion and are still a failure
15:43:46 <pbrobinson> I need something now, I've only been asking since, from mem, when the objective was approved which is coming up a year
15:44:09 <mattdm> pbrobinson: is getting https://iot.stg.fedoraproject.org/ into production with automatically updated links something that meets your needs?
15:44:13 <mattdm> or does it need something more?
15:44:29 <pbrobinson> mattdm: it's a good start
15:45:08 <pbrobinson> I'm sure we could tweak the content, and when the grand unification comes along we can update the look and feel then which would be fab
15:45:17 <mattdm> pbrobinson: I'll push on that, then.
15:45:32 <mattdm> let's move on to the hackfest so we have some time to discuss that?
15:45:55 <pbrobinson> or when we go from what we have no to an Edition with F-30 it could have the vis refresh then if it's ready as a celebration or something
15:46:23 <pbrobinson> anyway, other than site things are going along OK, given the resources we have available
15:46:39 <pbrobinson> we're doing a 29 dot release this week
15:46:57 <bcotton> #info Fedora 29 IoT dot release this week
15:47:17 <bcotton> #topic IoT Objective update
15:47:17 <pbrobinson> and as time allows between various explosions I'm trying to get the core F-30 bits finished like UEFI on ARMv7
15:47:21 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/245
15:47:34 <mattdm> pbrobinson: that sounds like a good plan but I think we need to have *some* site in place soon
15:47:47 <mattdm> bcotton: I think you topiced that wrong :)
15:48:04 <contyk> just a little
15:48:06 <bcotton> mattdm: d'oh
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15:48:14 <pbrobinson> mattdm: yes, a lot of people are getting confused and it would make my life a LOT easier to be able to point at a single link
15:48:15 <bcotton> #topic Objective Writing Hackfest
15:48:20 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/245
15:48:40 <bcotton> hey, it had the word "objective" in it. what more do you want from me?
15:49:08 <pbrobinson> LOL
15:49:17 <langdon> so.. i know it seems odd but it would work much better for me to do a sunday& monday combo and i am not sure if that is actually any different than a fri & sat combo
15:50:26 <mattdm> it doesn't matter to me. karen's going to be mad either way
15:50:34 <mattdm> although less mad about philly than ireland :)
15:50:42 <langdon> ha
15:50:47 <langdon> there is a BIG bell
15:50:57 * pbrobinson wonders why I never got this opportunity when I was proposing an objective ;-)
15:50:59 <mattdm> yeah but it's broken
15:51:10 <mattdm> pbrobinson: you didn't ask :)
15:51:23 <pbrobinson> mattdm: didn't know it was an option ;)
15:51:27 <contyk> since I'm not an objective lead, I think you can drop me to cut down the costs
15:51:30 * mattdm should have used that as an excuse to go to London. Or Australia.
15:51:30 <langdon> i just made it up
15:51:51 <dperpeet> March 3+4 doesn't work for me, the other is a maybe
15:52:05 <dperpeet> London would be ideal :D
15:52:07 <mattdm> So anyway, I'm in support of this and in support of doing it sooner rather than later
15:52:12 <dperpeet> I wouldn't need a hotel for London
15:52:13 <dperpeet> :D
15:52:18 <langdon> ha
15:52:27 <bcotton> i am also in support of it, and have a few things i'll leave as a comment
15:52:34 <bexelbie> Is the outcome going to be finished proposals?
15:52:46 <langdon> the reason for philly is because ben is based there and can only do it if there is no travel
15:52:51 <langdon> bexelbie: thats the idea
15:52:59 <mattdm> dperpeet: Ben Rosser is a student in Philadelphia so it'd be nice to meet him where he lives. Helps us include people who aren't full time
15:53:08 <dperpeet> yes, I followed the thread
15:53:18 <mattdm> cool
15:53:27 <langdon> bexelbie: is that what you wanted for breakdown?
15:53:30 <mattdm> langdon, bexelbie Let's go ahead and state that explicitly in the proposal
15:53:37 <bexelbie> ok, this is about 16% of our working budget, assuming no changes in our funding from RH next year
15:54:01 <dperpeet> count me out, save costs :)
15:54:06 <langdon> i am not sure we need everyone on the list
15:54:44 <langdon> dperpeet: is tomas' the right answer from your perspective? should it be pingou? someone else?
15:55:26 <bcotton> 5 minute warning
15:55:42 <dperpeet> langdon, Tomas' work is part of it, yes
15:55:55 <mattdm> dperpeet: It kind of sounds like we need you for the top level view
15:56:03 <dperpeet> yeah
15:56:30 <mattdm> can you do remote? at least in the us mornings?
15:56:42 <dperpeet> I will check March 17+18, remote should be possible at the very least
15:56:50 <dperpeet> I will follow up on the ticket
15:56:50 <contyk> I would do remote if a channel will be available
15:56:52 <langdon> i added an "outcome" to the ticket
15:58:07 <mattdm> langdon++
15:58:21 <mattdm> langdon can you also make sure each of the potential invitees knows we put their names in the hat? :)
15:58:47 <bcotton> last call for final question or comment on this before we #endmeeting
15:58:47 <langdon> yeah... should i tag them in the ticket you think? or send an email?
15:59:10 <bcotton> langdon: definitely tag them in the ticket. a separate email with context is probably good for those who haven't been a part of the discussion already
15:59:13 <langdon> bexelbie: do you have the info you need?
15:59:15 <bexelbie> Can you share in the ticket some of hte agenda/structure that helps us get these aligned in a way we haven't been able to ?
15:59:27 <bexelbie> langdon, info I need for what?  The budget breakdown - sort of
15:59:42 <bexelbie> I think we should look to reduce costs on the hotel from the estimate - but that is a site selection issue
15:59:46 <langdon> bexelbie: ok.. want to reply in the ticket? i am just not sure what you are looking for
15:59:48 <bexelbie> we can work through our system to get you a rate
16:00:02 <bexelbie> for budget that was enough - let's do a site bid
16:00:06 <bexelbie> for the agenda - that isn't in the ticket yet
16:00:10 <langdon> bexelbie: yeah.. i just took a swing via kayak
16:00:18 <bexelbie> airfare is airfare
16:00:24 <bexelbie> the hotel costs and food costs are more controllable
16:00:36 <langdon> re: agenda.. i would have to think about it.. i am not sure how it is more than .. we all sit in a room and write and are able to ask each other questions..
16:00:38 <bexelbie> I'll loop you in on hte site selection form
16:00:49 <bcotton> okay, we're at the top of the hour
16:00:51 <langdon> bexelbie: kayak remark was about hotel too
16:00:53 <bcotton> thanks everyone!
16:01:02 <mattdm> bcotton: thanks for running!
16:01:06 <bcotton> #endmeeting