15:00:52 <bcotton> #startmeeting Council (2019-02-20)
15:00:52 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Feb 20 15:00:52 2019 UTC.
15:00:52 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
15:00:52 <zodbot> The chair is bcotton. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00:52 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:52 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2019-02-20)'
15:00:53 <bcotton> #meetingname council
15:00:53 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
15:01:01 <bcotton> #chair jonatoni bexelbie contyk dgilmore dperpeet langdon mattdm sumantrom tyll bcotton pbrobinson stickster
15:01:01 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton bexelbie contyk dgilmore dperpeet jonatoni langdon mattdm pbrobinson stickster sumantrom tyll
15:01:02 <bcotton> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
15:01:08 <contyk> .hello psabata
15:01:09 <zodbot> contyk: psabata 'Petr Šabata' <psabata@redhat.com>
15:01:15 <stickster> .hello pfrields
15:01:16 <zodbot> stickster: pfrields 'Paul W. Frields' <stickster@gmail.com>
15:01:22 * pbrobinson o/
15:01:29 * sumantro is here!
15:01:51 * tyll is still in another meeting
15:02:46 <bcotton> #chair sumantro
15:02:46 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton bexelbie contyk dgilmore dperpeet jonatoni langdon mattdm pbrobinson stickster sumantro sumantrom tyll
15:03:00 <dgilmore> hi
15:03:25 <langdon> .hello2
15:03:26 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@redhat.com>
15:03:45 <langdon> pretty distracted today with conflicting meetings.. but will try
15:04:06 <bcotton> i know the FPL is AFK this AM, but it looks like we have a good portion of us, so let's dig in
15:04:17 <bcotton> shouldn't be too much that requires a lot of discussion
15:04:28 <bcotton> #topic Today's agenda
15:04:30 <bcotton> 1. Clarify trademark guidelines on modified hosted Fedora images
15:04:32 <bcotton> 2. Telegram as communication channel
15:04:37 <bcotton> 3. Proposal for Fedora Badges Hackfest 2019
15:04:39 <bcotton> 4. Update repo's settings, and IRC channel topic
15:04:43 <bcotton> 5. Objective Writing Hackfest
15:04:45 <bcotton> 6. Other open tickets
15:04:50 <bcotton> #topic Clarify trademark guidelines on modified hosted Fedora images
15:04:51 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/198
15:04:53 <bcotton> #info bexelbie was supposed to take the draft to legal
15:05:20 <bcotton> since bexelbie isn't around, i guess there's not much to say on this one right now
15:05:31 <bcotton> #action bcotton to follow up with bexelbie on the status of this ticket
15:05:42 <bcotton> #topic Telegram as communication channel
15:05:44 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/232
15:06:08 <bcotton> I think our position in the updated strategy doc means this can be closed. we've basically delegated it to each team
15:06:33 <bcotton> anyone see a need to further discussion no this one?
15:07:15 <sumantro> nothing from my side . we are already good here
15:08:40 * stickster catching up on ticket but doesn't have any specific questions or points to make
15:08:47 <bcotton> cool
15:08:51 <bcotton> #action bcotton to close this ticket
15:09:00 <bcotton> #topic Proposal for Fedora Badges Hackfest 2019
15:09:01 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/239
15:09:19 <langdon> we need to be sure that the rules around tiaga include the comma channel
15:09:35 <langdon> Oops.. a little late.. that was re telegram
15:09:53 <bcotton> langdon: yep, that'll be one of the requirements
15:10:23 <bcotton> so on the badges hackfest, i feel like we should really give them an approval or rejection soon. we've let this linger for a while
15:11:10 * bexelbie is here
15:11:17 <bexelbie> late sorry
15:11:19 <bexelbie> .hello bex
15:11:20 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bexelbie@redhat.com>
15:11:26 <bcotton> welcome, bexelbie!
15:11:58 * sumantro concurs with bcotton
15:12:02 <sumantro> bexelbie, hey!
15:12:09 <tyll> .hello till
15:12:10 <zodbot> tyll: till 'Till Maas' <opensource@till.name>
15:12:39 * bexelbie reviews badges ticket
15:13:58 * bcotton was +1 to the updated proposal 11 days ago, and that's the last activity
15:14:17 <bexelbie> I remain concerned about the lack of committed developers to either do the work or mentor
15:14:32 <tyll> is everyone who is mentioned as inputs actively behind the proposal? I remember this was not the case for the first proposal
15:14:33 <bcotton> it's worth noting that riecatnor[m] gave us an updated proposal 24 days ago
15:15:14 <bexelbie> the chart doesn't reflect that tyll
15:15:21 * bexelbie assumes it is accurate
15:15:24 <bcotton> bexelbie: i suggest voting +1/-1 depending on how strong your concern is
15:15:44 <bexelbie> so I am +1 to the concept, but I think it is too soon
15:15:54 <bexelbie> rumor is that hte CPE team may have ability to help some later this year
15:16:01 <bexelbie> and having that help would solve the developer issue, I think
15:16:02 <bcotton> but i feel like right now we're just letting it languish. rejecting the proposal is not terminal
15:16:17 <bexelbie> agreed that an answer is needed
15:16:57 <bexelbie> I am -1 as written, given my stated concerns and the lack of answers I am seeing to current technical challenges
15:17:01 <bcotton> proposed #agreed the clock starts now on a lazy consensus vote for riecatnor[m]'s updated proposal
15:17:10 <bexelbie> I am 100% of the belief that policy and design issues can be solved
15:17:29 <bexelbie> but those don't move the system forward without tech - just as tech alone wouldn't move the system forward with design and policy
15:17:31 <bexelbie> and so on
15:19:21 <bcotton> okay, so no one disgrees with starting the clock so we can give this a decision
15:19:33 <bexelbie> sure
15:19:37 <bcotton> #agreed the clock starts now on a lazy consensus vote for riecatnor[m]'s updated proposal
15:19:52 <bcotton> #action council members to vote on the ticket by 27 Wednesday
15:20:23 <bcotton> #topic Update repo's settings, and IRC channel topic
15:20:25 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/240
15:20:30 <bcotton> #info IRC channel topic still needs to be updated
15:20:31 <bcotton> #info Repo description needs to be updated (mattdm and bexelbie have access)
15:20:37 <bcotton> no discussion here, just needs #action :-)
15:21:00 <bcotton> bexelbie, if you want to make me an admin on the pagure repo, I'll follow up on both parts of this
15:21:34 <bexelbie> bcotton, will do - PRs also welcome :D
15:22:06 <bcotton> that would require me figuring out where in the magic the project description is. that sounds like effort :p
15:22:16 <bcotton> #action bexelbie to make bcotton an admin of the Council Tickets pagure repo
15:22:26 <bcotton> #action bcotton to follow up on the changes
15:22:33 <langdon> bcotton: just do it randomly somewhere and rely on someone telling you it is wrong and where to fix it
15:22:43 <bexelbie> #action is complete
15:22:48 <bcotton> langdon++
15:22:53 <bcotton> #topic Objective Writing Hackfest
15:22:54 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/245
15:23:31 <bcotton> this isn't that old, but i figured since we're here anyway...
15:23:51 <langdon> it has a pretty short fuse though
15:23:56 <bexelbie> Has the "homework" on this been done?
15:23:59 <bcotton> it looks like the budget is still being finalized? so we probably can't vote on it f'real until that's done
15:24:05 <bexelbie> i.e. are people showing up with rough drafts or empty pages?
15:24:09 <langdon> i believe a few people at least can't make it because the timeframe is too soon for visa
15:24:32 <langdon> bexelbie: re rough drafts, i think mostly rough drafts
15:25:03 <bexelbie> While I may  not normally be on the CC lists - have those been cross-circulated?  In other words are we down to literally only in-person bits on this one?
15:25:19 <bcotton> langdon: does that argue for moving it out? i know we want to get moving on some of these pretty quickly, but if we don't have people there, do we lose too much of the value?
15:25:25 <bexelbie> given the visa issue and timing want to make sure the right peopel can really be there to solve the problems
15:25:27 <langdon> bexelbie: im confused "those"?
15:25:37 <bexelbie> those == rough drafts
15:26:01 <langdon> bexelbie: oh.. yes.. i believe so.. or they have been held for doing the hackfest ..
15:26:16 <bexelbie> starting from a blank page feels like a recipe for not finishing
15:26:58 <langdon> perhaps.. but most of them are re-ups of existing objectives and all the new ones have drafts that have been circulated
15:27:58 <bexelbie> so can you expand on what we want to accomplish here? in terms of what is the coordination we are trying to hammer out?
15:28:00 <stickster> I'm not sure why this isn't solved with a template and advice/guidelines
15:29:38 <langdon> it could be.. i thought it might be a good idea.. and other people thought so too.. so i proposed it.. we don't seem to be making progress on them otherwise.. maybe this hackfest will be a forcing function
15:30:02 <langdon> but.. it is "money" so maybe we don't .. if we have better ways to spend the money
15:30:45 <bexelbie> my concern is having success, not the cash
15:30:52 <bexelbie> if we have people who can't come because of visas
15:31:00 <bexelbie> and we have drafts that may or may not be ok
15:31:07 <bexelbie> do we know we have a forcing function need
15:31:12 <bexelbie> and if so, do we have hte people we need in the room
15:31:19 <langdon> perhaps we push harder to get confirmations on attendance..
15:33:15 <tyll> IMHO the possible attendendees should want by themselves to attend there, i.e. think of it as something that is useful for them... It they need to be pushed, it does not seem to be useful
15:34:19 <langdon> tyll: the "forcing function" remark was about finalizing the docs.. i think people want to do them but can't find the time.. if you give them a committed time and place.. that can help a lot
15:34:47 <bexelbie> I think tyll meant the part about pushing for confirmations of attendance
15:35:14 <tyll> langdon: if they need a place and a time you need to lock them in separate rooms so they can concentrate on writing ;-)
15:35:39 <langdon> yeah.. i was explaining i don't think that needs to be forced.. per se.. i don't think we have asked loudly enough
15:36:02 <tyll> bexelbie: yes, they should just be excited about it and do whateever needs to be done to be able to attend :-)
15:36:05 <bexelbie> ok, so how about we move this forward by you making usre the date gets the people you want in the room and then getting a budget
15:36:15 <langdon> tyll: independent play!?!? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parten%27s_stages_of_play
15:36:23 <bexelbie> I think we are all in principal ok with this if this solves the problem
15:36:41 <bexelbie> It'd be great to better understand the needs - i.e. where are the drafts in conflict/what needs to be hammered out
15:37:18 <langdon> bexelbie: i think the only way you get that is by doing the hackfest.. they may be in perfect alignment but likely not
15:38:45 <bexelbie> are we literally at a point where we don't even have one human who can read all the drafts for alignment?
15:38:53 <bexelbie> that doesn't bode well for the actual work that the objectives entail
15:39:00 <tyll> langdon: I agree that the live feedback and discussion is helpful to hammer things out but for this everyone needs to be clear already on what they want (i.e. have their initial drafts ready)
15:39:02 <langdon> we definitely do.. we just don't have one human with the time to do it
15:40:35 <bexelbie> almost makes me feel like we should bring them up for votes then and let the council process expose inconsistencies
15:40:53 <bexelbie> if we assume that people-poewr becomes available to do the work once they are approved but not before
15:40:55 <langdon> bexelbie: ha..
15:42:03 <langdon> personally, i am happy to withdraw the proposal.. i am not sure I can defend it to this level of scrutiny.. i thought it would help get more objectives done, particularly by community members.. the council (at least the speakers) does not seem to agree to the value for the dollars..
15:42:21 <langdon> i would say the objections indicate a -1 from a number of members
15:42:30 <bexelbie> I have not heard of any conversatoins about dollars in our conversation
15:42:39 <bexelbie> I have heard about need for hte event at all
15:42:42 <bexelbie> based on the descriptions
15:42:54 <bexelbie> I am sorry you feel like my questions have been too much scrutiny
15:43:03 <langdon> bexelbie: I have heard about need for hte event at all < "not heard"?
15:43:22 <tyll> It would be good to know from the possible attendees why they think it is useful for them
15:43:31 <bexelbie> I have had questions about hte need for hte event (better restatement)
15:43:34 <langdon> bexelbie: i don't think you are wrong to ask the questions.. i just don't think i have good enough answers
15:44:05 <bexelbie> I understand if you want to withdraw it - but I also think you could circulate the question, like tyll has suggested and let that stand as the statement
15:44:12 <langdon> and.. of course we have discussed dollars.. otherwise why would you possibly not approve it? if it was free?
15:44:32 <langdon> bexelbie: not in time to book and plan travel by march 3rd
15:44:38 <bexelbie> langdon, while yes, if free we wouldn't be discussing this
15:44:47 <bexelbie> what I mean is that no one has said I lvoe this for $X but not for $Y
15:45:18 <langdon> bexelbie: i heard i think this is terrible for $1 :)
15:46:44 * bexelbie is apparently failing at communication today
15:46:51 * langdon notes he is not offended in any way..
15:48:01 * bcotton notes that this is the last item on the agenda, so we can let the conversation continue for a little longer, but if anyone has a different #topic we need to address, feel free to raise your hand
15:48:22 <bcotton> it does seem like this has run its course for the time being?
15:48:57 <langdon> i wonder if it would make more sense for bex (et al) to write directly to the group potentially attending and ask questions?
15:48:59 <tyll> bcotton: IMHO we need to do something about #244 (it seems like nothing is happening atm)
15:49:15 <tyll> bcotton: not that we need to discuss it here... but make sure that we discuss it
15:49:28 <contyk> langdon: +1
15:49:34 <bexelbie> tyll, bcotton and I are drafting the final response for council comment tomorrow
15:49:40 <bexelbie> aiui
15:50:07 <bcotton> tyll: what bexelbie said. thanks for noticing it, though
15:50:10 <bcotton> tyll++
15:50:16 <tyll> bcotton: bexelbie: Thx
15:52:45 <bcotton> okay, sounds like we've exhausted the discussion on the hackfest
15:53:05 <tyll> I added my questions to the ticket
15:53:11 <bcotton> thanks tyll
15:54:17 <bcotton> #topic Other open tickets
15:54:19 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issues
15:54:25 <bcotton> anything else for the last 6 minutes?
15:57:11 <langdon> i'm guessing "no" :)
15:57:15 <bcotton> seems that way
15:57:25 <bcotton> but hey, i ticket queue is getting smaller, so yay
15:57:28 <bcotton> thanks everyone!
15:57:30 <bcotton> #endmeeting