14:00:03 <bcotton> #startmeeting Council (2019-05-15)
14:00:03 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed May 15 14:00:03 2019 UTC.
14:00:03 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
14:00:03 <zodbot> The chair is bcotton. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:03 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:03 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2019-05-15)'
14:00:12 <dperpeet> .hello dperpeet
14:00:13 <bcotton> #meetingname council
14:00:13 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
14:00:15 <bcotton> #chair jonatoni bexelbie contyk dgilmore dperpeet langdon mattdm sumantrom tyll bcotton pbrobinson stickster
14:00:15 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton bexelbie contyk dgilmore dperpeet jonatoni langdon mattdm pbrobinson stickster sumantrom tyll
14:00:17 <zodbot> dperpeet: dperpeet 'None' <dperpeet@redhat.com>
14:00:23 <bcotton> ohai, dperpeet!
14:00:25 <bexelbie> .hello bex
14:00:27 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bexelbie@redhat.com>
14:00:27 <jonatoni> .hello jonatoni
14:00:30 <zodbot> jonatoni: jonatoni 'Jona Azizaj' <jonaazizaj@gmail.com>
14:00:30 <tyll> .hello till
14:00:33 <contyk> .hello psabata
14:00:33 <zodbot> tyll: till 'Till Maas' <opensource@till.name>
14:00:36 <zodbot> contyk: psabata 'Petr Šabata' <psabata@redhat.com>
14:00:41 * contyk will have to leave in 20
14:00:45 <dgilmore> hi
14:00:58 <mattdm_> let's try to get it all done in 30 then :)
14:01:22 <mattdm_> My kid went and bought fish yesterday, and we said "are you sure the water is ready" and she said yes...
14:01:35 <bcotton> narrator: ...
14:01:38 <dgilmore> it was not?
14:01:39 <mattdm_> and this morning all the fish are dead. so I need to attend a Life Lessons Fish Funeral
14:01:44 <dperpeet> :o
14:01:46 <mattdm_> right. :)
14:01:53 <bcotton> brb, tweeting
14:02:09 <dperpeet> I want to have 2-3 minutes for the CI Objective today
14:02:14 <tyll> mattdm_, when you started I thought it was for cooking and I would hear about food poisoning ;-)
14:02:16 <dperpeet> that sounded demanding
14:02:19 <dperpeet> more than intended
14:02:32 <mattdm_> dperpeet: yes you should have it :)
14:02:35 <bcotton> dperpeet: okay, we'll put you in first
14:02:39 <bcotton> #topic Today's agenda
14:02:40 <mattdm_> bcotton: can we insert that up front?
14:02:47 <bcotton> 0. CI objective
14:02:54 <bcotton> 1. Election interview questions
14:02:56 <bcotton> 2. Flock update
14:02:57 <bcotton> 3. Legal updates (logo, trademark proposal, CoC)
14:02:58 <bcotton> 4. Open floor
14:03:01 <bcotton> #topic CI objective
14:03:06 <dperpeet> thank you
14:03:06 <bcotton> dperpeet: the floor is yours
14:03:22 <dperpeet> I have prepared a draft for the next objective, now that pieces are roughly in place
14:03:30 <dperpeet> and owners for the parts identified
14:03:32 <dperpeet> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CI/proposal2019
14:03:35 <dperpeet> is the rough draft
14:03:36 <dperpeet> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CI/proposal2019
14:03:54 <dperpeet> that part would go into docs once done
14:04:05 <dperpeet> and the plan is linked there, leading to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/CI:2019
14:04:08 <dperpeet> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/CI:2019
14:04:20 <dperpeet> 4 distinct deliverable areas
14:04:31 <dperpeet> rawhide gating, driven by pingou
14:04:44 <dperpeet> distro wide tests, around dcantrell and Fedora QA
14:04:56 <dperpeet> documentation and guides, bookwar
14:05:17 <dperpeet> and upstream integration, packaging (Packit) by ttomecek
14:05:44 <dperpeet> the CI group has its taiga
14:05:49 <mattdm_> are the deliverables all binary?
14:05:52 <dperpeet> and I'm working on filling those tracker epics
14:06:07 <mattdm_> "rawhide gating working y/n?" "distro-wide tests running y/n?" etc?
14:06:11 <mattdm_> that's what i mean
14:06:15 <dperpeet> I was going to ask :D
14:06:16 <mattdm_> not "are they binary packages :)
14:06:21 <dperpeet> no
14:06:43 <dperpeet> but they have a line at which we can say "yes this worked"
14:07:08 <dperpeet> so through all the incremental potential success we've drawn lines where we say we want to end up at Flock
14:07:28 <dperpeet> e.g. at least 1 distro wide test available to gate on
14:07:54 <mattdm_> Is that in the document somewhere and i'm not seeing it? :)
14:07:59 <dperpeet> before I send this out on the lists I will add those criteria to the epics
14:08:00 <tyll> dperpeet, are the distribution wide tests for all releases or only Rawhide?
14:08:23 * mattdm mumbles about freenode and znc automatic restart joining channels too fast
14:08:27 <dperpeet> all of this is to be useful across the releases, but the scope of the Objective is Rawhide
14:08:33 <dperpeet> so gating in Rawhide
14:08:41 <dperpeet> tests can be run elsewhere, but gating in Rawhide
14:09:23 <tyll> will the tests also run for EPEL?
14:09:23 <dperpeet> mattdm, I hope we can have these criteria filled in by next week
14:09:26 <mattdm> dperpeet++
14:09:32 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for dperpeet changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:09:42 <bcotton> dperpeet++
14:09:42 <zodbot> bcotton: Karma for dperpeet changed to 2 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:09:43 <dperpeet> tyll, I don't know, I haven't planned that at the moment
14:10:02 <contyk> dperpeet++
14:10:02 <zodbot> contyk: Karma for dperpeet changed to 3 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:10:25 <dperpeet> so the question for here is
14:10:37 <dperpeet> given the sparse summary, do you all agree with the scope?
14:10:58 <dperpeet> I intentionally want to focus on Rawhide
14:11:09 <dperpeet> but we will keep the pipelines running for current releases also
14:11:10 <bcotton> it seems reasonable at first glance. i'd have to sit down with it for a little bit
14:11:18 <bexelbie> same
14:11:21 <tyll> dperpeet, it sounds like a lot to achieve in 3 months, so I will be impressed if it gets delivered that quick :-)
14:11:21 <dperpeet> so no degradation compared to what we have now
14:11:43 <dperpeet> tyll, to be fair, work started in December / January
14:11:45 <bcotton> dperpeet: is the intent that once this is done in rawhide, it eventually follows branches?
14:11:50 <dperpeet> it was just me being slow to document and nail down owners
14:11:59 <dgilmore> I think a focus on rawhide is essential
14:12:17 <dperpeet> bcotton, potentially, but I think for CI, being close to development is essential
14:12:34 <dperpeet> I'm sure we can reuse things, but this is where we get feedback to the right place
14:12:36 <bcotton> makes sense
14:12:54 <dgilmore> dperpeet++
14:12:58 <zodbot> dgilmore: Karma for dperpeet changed to 4 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:13:01 <dperpeet> this also prevents some issues we had before
14:13:09 <dperpeet> where people were impacted in their release work
14:13:20 <dperpeet> with usability issues et cetera
14:13:29 <dperpeet> so I want to scope it very clearly to where we develop
14:13:50 <dgilmore> with the right CI, we will be much less likely to hit issues where we do not get composes out for weeks at a time
14:13:57 <dperpeet> in the end, I believe this won't slow down rawhide contributions, but rather increase them
14:14:05 <dperpeet> exactly
14:14:07 <dperpeet> dgilmore++
14:14:09 <zodbot> dperpeet: Karma for ausil changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:14:14 <dgilmore> dperpeet: I agree fully
14:14:27 <dperpeet> thank you for your feedback
14:14:31 <dperpeet> that was a long 2-3 minutes
14:14:31 <dperpeet> :D
14:14:47 <bcotton> dperpeet: time is an illusion. meeting time doubly so
14:14:52 <bcotton> anything else on this topic?
14:14:52 <dperpeet> indeed
14:14:58 <dperpeet> not from me at this time, thank you
14:14:59 <mattdm> dperpeet: turns out you had a lot to say, and i think it's been a while :)
14:15:00 <tyll> not sure if it is a too detailed question, but does "Implement distribution-wide tests that run on every package update and dist-git pull-request" that all the tests need to re-run after a PR is merged?
14:15:39 <dperpeet> tyll, the answer to that is mixed and pretty technical - I can say that I want to gate at the package level for sure, so after something is built
14:16:10 <dperpeet> we can discuss that outside of this meeting I think
14:16:22 <tyll> sure
14:16:34 <bcotton> okay, moving on then :-)
14:16:34 <dperpeet> but it's a good one, thank you :)
14:16:43 <bcotton> #topic Election interview questions
14:16:45 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/252
14:17:23 <mattdm> Is this "+1 till's suggestions so we can move on"? :)
14:17:33 <bcotton> this is mostly a reminder to weigh in so we can hold an election :-)
14:17:39 <bcotton> mattdm: yeah, basically
14:17:51 <mattdm> +1
14:17:57 <dgilmore> +1 to tyll's suggestions
14:18:01 <bexelbie> +14
14:18:07 <bexelbie> or +1
14:18:27 <bcotton> i'd also like some suggestions for questions x3mboy can use. using the same questions for the podcast and the written interview is not swell (or x3mboy can just come up with his own)
14:19:02 <bcotton> +1 from me too
14:19:13 <bcotton> okay, that's +5,0,-0 after a week, done
14:19:16 <tyll> :-)
14:19:31 <tyll> makes it easier for me to do the interview
14:19:38 <dperpeet> +1
14:19:39 <bcotton> #agreed The questions proposed in https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/252#comment-569384 are accepted
14:19:40 <jonatoni> +1
14:20:06 <bcotton> #undo
14:20:06 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: AGREED by bcotton at 14:19:39 : The questions proposed in https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/252#comment-569384 are accepted
14:20:15 <bcotton> #agreed The questions proposed in https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/252#comment-569384 are accepted (+7,0,-0)
14:20:19 <bcotton> #info Council members are encouraged to add additional suggestions for the podcast
14:20:21 <bcotton> moving on
14:20:32 <bcotton> #topic Flock update
14:20:34 <bcotton> #link https://teams.fedoraproject.org/project/bex-flock-2019/timeline
14:20:51 <bcotton> #info Flock registration is open
14:21:06 <bcotton> #link https://www.eventbrite.com/e/flock-to-fedora-2019-tickets-55502933769
14:21:11 <bcotton> #info Flock CfP is open
14:21:20 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/flock/new_issue
14:21:35 <mattdm> bexelbie++
14:21:40 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for bex changed to 2 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:21:40 <bcotton> bexelbie: your email earlier today took the wind out of this topic. anything else you'd like to add here?
14:21:45 <bexelbie> Funding requests are also open
14:21:52 <mattdm> I have promised to write a message about goals for Flock this year
14:21:55 <bexelbie> link is in the email and soon on the site
14:22:03 <bexelbie> and is ...
14:22:03 <mattdm> I promised that yesterday so I'm not done yet
14:22:04 <bcotton> #info Flock funding is open
14:22:16 <bexelbie> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/18BYuHS-91gt5_zaNAskn4-aF5cNimshuZzXu4yo_fz4/
14:22:22 <bexelbie> mattdm, well it was due a while back :P
14:22:29 <bcotton> #link https://docs.google.com/forms/d/18BYuHS-91gt5_zaNAskn4-aF5cNimshuZzXu4yo_fz4/edit
14:23:01 <mattdm> bexelbie: :-p
14:23:32 <bexelbie> There are lots of opportunities to help with Flock
14:23:36 <bexelbie> #INFO There are lots of opportunities to help with Flock
14:23:39 <bexelbie> that is all I have
14:23:47 <bexelbie> not sure why info is cap there
14:23:52 <bcotton> anything flock-related for bexelbie?
14:24:02 <bcotton> because it's important information
14:24:20 <bexelbie> apparently so
14:24:58 <dperpeet> I have a question about the funding requests
14:25:07 <dperpeet> are they also open to employees of sponsors?
14:25:34 <bexelbie> yes, however like with all funding requests we ask that you look for non-Fedora money first, i.e. from your employer
14:26:50 <dperpeet> thank you
14:26:57 <mattdm> Basically, we can't use Fedora community money to make up for Red Hat being stingy with engineering travel funds
14:26:58 <dperpeet> important info when someone asks me :)
14:27:27 <mattdm> When someone in RH management asks you, you should look at them with a face that says "are you serious right now"
14:27:32 <dperpeet> I wouldn't say stingy, it's a matter of allocation, but I appreciate the clear answer
14:27:36 <dperpeet> :)
14:27:54 <bexelbie> and encourage managers at RH to ask their managers - we have found some don't
14:28:31 <mattdm> Yeah, a lot of people just assumed that there isn't a possibility, and then when I checked with the higher-ups later they said "we didn't get any requests!"
14:28:40 * mattdm airs dirty laundry
14:28:52 <bcotton> okay, before it gets any smellier in here...
14:28:53 <bcotton> #topic Legal updates (logo, trademark proposal, CoC)
14:29:00 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/249
14:29:02 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/198
14:29:03 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/145
14:29:13 <bcotton> i batched these all together because i assumed the update is "there is no update"
14:29:16 <bcotton> mattdm, bexelbie?
14:29:20 <mattdm> we have a meeting with red hat lawyers about the logo next week
14:29:28 <bexelbie> CoC is a continuing effort
14:29:34 <bexelbie> trademark is stalled and my fault - on my list
14:29:34 <mattdm> so there's not _really_ an update but there's a pre-update :)
14:30:35 <bcotton> awesome. any questions or comments from the rest of the group?
14:31:40 <bcotton> #topic Open floor
14:31:49 <bcotton> anything else we need to cover this week?
14:31:56 <tyll> There is also the ticket about nitrokeys
14:32:30 <bcotton> tyll: igor is supposed to go do some fact finding, right? is there any action or discussion needed from the council at this point?
14:33:14 <tyll> bcotton, I did the fact finding for him in the ticket
14:34:00 <bcotton> okay, so what's the next step?
14:34:08 <bexelbie> I'd prefer to wait on this until we know more about hte logo situation
14:34:18 <bexelbie> let's not print keys with old logo if it isn't needed
14:34:25 <dgilmore> bexelbie: +1
14:34:35 <dgilmore> they should be around a long time
14:34:44 <tyll> so in general it is something we want to do?
14:35:48 <mattdm> can we link the ticket?
14:35:54 <bcotton> #topic NitroKey
14:36:02 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/251
14:36:27 <bcotton> so i like the idea generally. if nothing else, it's a nice way to express appreciation for contributors
14:36:39 <bcotton> but i agree with blocking it on the logo
14:37:13 <bcotton> and i'd like to know specifically what the criteria will be (not something we have to answer immediately, but we should come up with something meaningful so that we have a sense of scale)
14:37:13 <mattdm> +1
14:39:15 <tyll> IMHO from a security POV it makes sense to allow it for everyone who can contribute to anything meaningful (where the key can be used) and we should probably enforce it once someone requested it
14:39:37 <tyll> or we could even enforce that everyone needs to do it and provide them with the hardware
14:40:27 <bcotton> enforcing it on everyone would be a pretty big barrier to contribution, i'd think. it depends on where we draw the "meaningful" line
14:40:38 <bexelbie> as this would be a donation I dno't think we can gurantee hardware availability
14:40:47 <bexelbie> I think getting the hardware enforces use of a key is reasonable
14:42:23 <bcotton> so it sounds like we need a more specific proposal that includes: 1. who will get the key and 2. how we will enforce it (including what infra work, if any, would be required)
14:42:52 <bcotton> but we seem to agree that waiting for the new logo is the preferred timing regardless
14:43:48 <bcotton> is that a fair summary?
14:43:59 <dgilmore> yes
14:44:22 <dgilmore> the tough part is the transition from not having it to having it
14:44:48 <bcotton> tyll: will you take ownership of the proposal?
14:44:57 <smooge> question.. does 'enforcement' require Fedora Infrastructure to put something in place to do so?
14:45:05 <tyll> sounds good... I am just wondering about who to include. IMHO we should also include design and other teams than infra/packaging (as long as they use GIT repos) but I do not know about their hierarchy
14:45:10 <smooge> or what bcotton said above
14:45:11 <bcotton> smooge: that's part of what we need to figure out
14:45:25 <tyll> bcotton, yes, I will move it forward
14:45:30 <bcotton> tyll++
14:45:31 <zodbot> bcotton: Karma for till changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:46:02 <bcotton> #action tyll to develop a proposal that includes: 1. who will get the key and 2. how we will enforce it (including what infra work, if any, would be required)
14:46:11 <bcotton> anything else on this topic?
14:46:14 <bcotton> oh
14:46:31 <bcotton> #agreed We should wait on the new logo before getting new hardware
14:47:21 <bcotton> tyll: i have some "yeah-buts" about who to include. i'll bring them up in #fedora-council after the meeting so we can wrap this up
14:47:45 <tyll> bcotton, thx
14:47:52 <dgilmore> tyll++
14:47:53 <zodbot> dgilmore: Karma for till changed to 2 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:48:12 <bcotton> #topic Open floor
14:48:14 <bcotton> last call!
14:48:49 <tyll> IMHO everyone should think about if there is someone else to nominate for the election so there will be a meaningful election
14:49:11 <bcotton> agreed
14:49:22 <bcotton> #info Elections nominations close at 23:59 UTC on Wednesday 22 May
14:49:37 <tyll> currently it is only two candidates including me
14:51:34 <bcotton> #info Next week's Fedora Council meeting is open floor at 1400 UTC in #fedora-meeting-1
14:52:51 <bcotton> okay, thanks everyone. Good meeting :-D
14:52:53 <bcotton> #endmeeting